Conference unifix::sailing

    
    	You've done most of your selection homework; there isn't a loser in
    the lot! Some of the prices, I dunno, like the Saber, but then I'm not
    a shopper now.
    
    	The Pearson 26 IS a great value, and there are a few around. As
    well, the 30. Not nuts about the (modern) 28.
    
    	But nothing educated you like shopping. If you have the time and
    inclination, owners (more than sellers) will pile you with info LONG
    after you begin to yawn.
    
    	Editorial comment: I like fin keels. The boats just sail nicer, I
    think. Not extremes, like Coyote, just standard factory issue. I've
    crewed more than once on the prettiest (out of the water) Bristol 40
    with full keel, lots of overhang, real classy. And a real teetertotter
    in rollers! So I'd say, get something that draws another foot, and set
    the fatho to beep in the shallows. I also think full battens and roller
    furling rate right up there with sliced bread and autohelms.
    
    	Now, set your weekend up right, and get a demo ride in a few boats
    per week! Hey, you'll hardly NEED to buy this season!!
    
    	Have a ball,
    
    	The buyer is King.
    
    	Scott.

    re .0:
    
    STOP IT!  STOP IT!!  STOP IT!!!  whadyamean, the Pearson 26 IS a great
    value; it was a GREAT value!!!  A GREAT value for John and, sorry for
    the pun, but a goodbye for me  :-(
    
    BTW Alan, I sold my Tiger for $4400 - I must be on rope dope or
    something.
    
    Actually, I'm really pleased that John bought the Yin Yang, now named
    something else like Emily Ann??.  John and his wife and friends have
    really been into a new love affair with her and I'm really happy to see
    that happen.  She's been a great boat for me and now it's like the
    feeling you get when you look around for someone to give your precious
    puppy to for a new home; you really want something right for that
    special friend.
    
    	Cheers!  (whoops; that was last night!)
    
    	Ron
    

    re .2 
    
    Gee Alan, I never turn down offers, but right now we got 
    over 200 hours into Erna Ann (aka Ying Yang), not to mention
    hundreds and hundreds of dollars (do they make bung plugs for wallets?).
    
    Original Purchase price would be no where near what I would accept to
    part with her now part with her now.
    
    Plans are to splash her Tuesday if I get the last of the minor bugs
    squared away (splice in a new main halyard, get the engine to work,
    finish the holding tank system, charge the batteries). If all goes
    well, she'll be in  Salem come Monday, bobbing with her new name.
    
    Wanna buy a catamaran? the $6000 you save will pay for a lot of
    nice hotel rooms.
    
       Got to get back to work. Have to get this motor running and 
    tiller varnished.
    
    
       john

    Um, maybe we can talk. I will be putting my Ariel (26') on the market
    this Sep. She meets most of the criteria you stated in .0 and will
    probably be priced at $4,000/OBO. She needs a new deck, however, and
    that's where the OBO comes in. I researched the process of fixing it
    up, and it's won't be as tough as it sounds. Perhaps 2 people 2 days,
    not including painting. The rest of the boat is in fine condition.

    She's loaded, < 50 hours on the motor (outboard), 2 seasons on the
    Main, and best of all, she's usually moored in Great Harbor and knows
    here way home!

    It's something to thing about.

    good luck,
    paul

    	I think I would definitely take the time this summer to shop and
    not really consider buying until the end of the season. If you play it
    right you may still get a couple chances to sail while you're looking. 
    I'd be affraid that buying a boat now it would still require spring
    prep. and by the time youhad it done you'd miss half the season. And 
    the second half of the season is when you get to pay close attention to 
    the weather and be prepared to dodge hurricanes. I also think boats are
    likely to be priced lower at the end of the season, but I have no real
    base for that other than intuition.
    
    	In your list of boats there were a couple that caught my eye. There
    was an Ericson, those boats left a positive impression on me when I was
    shopping, but they were out of my price range. There was another in
    there that impressed, the Pearson Flyer, It'd be a fine boat for me,
    but you don't want a racer. I know the area where you sail and just
    comparing those two boats the Ericson would be a lot nicer with the
    family. The Ericson struck me as a hevier boat and I seemed to get the
    impression they were well built. My impression of the Pearson, the
    Flyer, is that it is light and I could have many wild fast rides over
    to Woods Hole if I had one of those. 
    
    	Pesonally I feel like I'd like to get into a decent sized
    trimaran, but thats not really in my budget today. I like the idea of 
    raw speed and less than 20 degrees of heal. Not that I mind healing, 
    but the idea of not healing and accelerating out of a tack toward ten
    knots is very appealing to my mind. Double the speed would double my
    cruising range and that is very attractive. 
    
    Fanta seas
    	Geoff

    I sail out of Redbrook harbor, so am familiar with the conditions in
    which you will be sailing. I suggest a boat which has a moderate sail 
    area to displacement, which will handle the chop in Buzzards and the
    two sounds.
    
    Two boats which might meet your needs are the Morris Leigh, and Linda.
    THey are double enders, but they sail very well. I think the Leigh
    is now being built someplace in the Buzzards Bay area.
    
    Anyways, some more data to fill the cells on your spreadsheet.
    
                       Bill

The Morris boats are very nice, but they are also very expensive (overly 
so in my opinion). A recent ad listed a 1981 Leigh 30 for $69000 and a
1982 for $79000. The asking price for a 1983 Annie 29 is $59500, $67000
for a 1987 Linda 28, and $82000 for a 1985 Linda. 

Alan

This boat is offered around $25,000. It is strongly built and has a full keel
and inboard motor. Standing room inside.
	Mike

I have made a spread sheet for "THE PERFECT CRUISER".  My spread sheet happens
to be on Lotus 123.  If anyone wants a copy they may get one for the asking.
Please, personal use only.

I have not done a good job of reolving the differences between models of
boats.  Even so I can spot boats which are clearly out of the running.

The next reply is a description of the basic approach I used.  It is fairly
long.

Doug

Column A (left edge) contains the catagories of interest.  Column B contains
default values if any.

Columns D-?? are individual entries of boats.  Dumped off to the right of
the boat entries are selected samples of prices from BUC.  Worcester Public
Library and (Newton?) have BUC in the reference area, full book number
"J/915.2/A823"  915.2 is the number to use when searching the stacks.

The first group of entries in a column are general information. Builder, model,
year, phone number of seller, name of seller etc.

The next group contains pricing information.  There is an entry for BUC price.
I used average between the two prices from BUC.  There is the asking price, and
what I would offer.  Some simple calculations are then done.  One is for the
difference between my offer, (ie. what the purchase price of the boat would be)
and BUC.  This is expressed as a delta in dollars and as a ratio.  The bigger
the ratio, the lower the asking price is compared to BUC.  As a tentative
starting point I use an offer price of 0.8*asking price.

I then calcuate an adjusted price for the boat.  This is based on items further
down the column.  It is comprised of four basic entries. 1: offer price, 2:
required corrctions/improvements needed to go sailing, 3: desirable features
already included, 4: GOODNESS factor.

1: As you evaluate the boat, this is the currently active offer you have made.

2: Required work/improvements is a little subject.  Bottom line is this is
        money you feel or are obligated to put into the boat prior to sailing.
        Required examples are flares, PFDs.  They must be on the boat.
        Personally, I plan on buying new ones even if they are there.  Other
        work is perhaps more elective, ie CQR anchor, VHF, depth sounder etc.
        If these are missing, the "value" of the boat is decreased.  If they
        are present, there is no adjustment to the "value" of the boat.

3: Desired items are essentially things that are nice to have have.  If they
        are missing, there is no effect on the "value" of the boat.  If they
        are present, they increase the effective "value" of the boat.

My default values for 2: and 3: need a little explaining.

A dingy is desirable for me.  I just built one (easy to do < $100), so I do
not require a dingy for my cruiser.  However, having a second one would
still be nice.  My default value is how much I am willing to pay for a
second dingy.

        Note: if I did not have a dingy, this would be a required item, and
        the price would probably be around $500.00.

I consider a VHF mandatory.  If they do not include one, I am going to buy
a new one.  This costs about $150.00.  I will cut some slack in terms of
antenna and installation charges.

What I am trying to demonstrate is that the items in the Required group
and those in the Desired group and somewhat dependent on your personal
situation.  The same is true for the default values.

I would expect to come pretty close on the general state of the various
items during a telephone conversation with the owner.  I think the average
phone call takes about 1/2 hour.  Of course, this is just a first pass, before
a real survey.  By the time I am paying for a survey, I want to be down to
one or two boats.  I am currently reviewing perhaps 50.

Remember, missing Required items effectively raise the purchase price, and
added Desired items effectively lower the purchase price of the boat itself.

4: GOODNESS factor is a fudge number in $$$$$.  This pure and simple is how
        much am I willing to pay for this boat because of emotion.  If the
        boat feels right, this gets to be a big number.  I like traditionaly
        styled boats, clipper bows, and gaff rigs.  GOODNESS gets big.  Euro
        styling does nothing for me.  Not much GOODNESS credit here.  I
        suggest that GOODNESS should be kept to less than 1/2 the BUC price.
        Otherwise you could end up with an extremely poor purchase.

These four items get added together to form the adjusted price.  This is the
first (and currently only) normalization done between boats.  It should
compare two PEARSON 26's quite well.

I then also show how this adjusted price compares to BUC, in $$$$.  This
reoresents my maximum margin of error for bailing out with my shirt on.  It
also acts as a sanity check on my sense of GOODNESS.  If the adjusted price
is above the BUC price, then maybe I love the boat to much and should keep
looking.  All of this fits on the first screen of my PC.

Next comes the required section.  This lsits items and their default values.
I assigned the default values on a quick run through.  Also the items are
listed in stream of thought, verses priority.

There is a similar list for desired items.

Finally, there is a performance section.  The idea would be to normalize
performance criteria between differnt boats.  I have not made any progress here.
Some performance issues are in conflict with each other.  Forinstance, a low
PHRF is desirable, and so is a high comfort rating (I was going to use Ted
Brewer's comfort ration, found elsewhere in these notes).  The comfort ratio
increases fstest as displacement increases.  This tends to generate lower
PHRF's.  Break performance into percentage parts, x% for comfort, y% for
screen# z% for PHRF etc.  The exact ratios would be dependent on your wants and
needs.  Raw speed, get a cat or trimaran,  but then your screen # is shot to
heck.  In this case screen # would have a small coefficent associated with it.

The raw entries are shown below.  Comments and questions are welcome.

Doug

Make
Model
Year
Owner
Phone #
Price
  Asking
  BUC
  Delta
  %Delta
  Offer

Price Adjustments
  Required
  Desired
  Goodness Factor
----------------
Adjusted Price
Adj Price < BUC

Required Equipment      Price to correct
  VHF                   150
  Depth Sounder         200
  Motor                 1400
  Marine Head           500
  Jib                   500
  Main                  800
  Other Sails           400
  Anchor+Rode           300
  Hull
  Deck
  Auto Bilge Pump       100
  Manual Bilge Pump     150
  Life jackets          50
  Flares                20
  Running Rigging
  Standing Rigging
  Deck Lines            200
  Running Lights        100
---------------------------
Total for required work

Desired Equipment       Show if included
  Dingy                 100
  Fenders               100
  Roller Furling        200
  Lazy Jacks            50
  Boat Stands           100
  Spreader Lights       50
  MSD II                100
  Holding Tank          100
  Inverter              50
  Inboard Gas Motor     300
  Inboard Diesel        500
  Pressurized H2O       50
  Gas Stove             100
  Bimini                100
  Dodger                100
  CQR Anchor            150
  Bruce Anchor          125
  Multiple Batteries    120
  MOB Equipment         100
  Refridgerator         75
  Knot Meter            100
  Loran                 200
  Wheel                 400
  Autopilot             250
  Wind dir + speed      50
----------------------------
Total of
Desired items included

Performance
  PHRF
  LOA
  LWL
  Sail Area
  Disp
  Screen #
  Comfort #
  Draft
---------------------------
Performance total

Other details not figured in correctly yet.
Motor
  Outboard      0
  Sail Drive    200
  Gas Aux       300
  Diesel        500
Dingy           100
Stands          50
Offer Prices
  1 st
  2 nd
  3 rd

    List looks good. Myself
    
    1. I would swap the figures for a marine head and holding tank. You
      can buy a new head for appx 120 bucks, but it is about 400 bucks to
      plumb in the holding tank. A boat with a marine head and no holding
      tank is a negative number for calculations because you are going to
      have to deal with this immediately.
    
    2. A roller furling setup may rate low on your list, but it is not
       cheap to retrofit. The average price is 2K new,  so you need to look
       at this when calculating what the boat is truely worth. You have
       already built in a discount factor, now you have to be realistic 
       in what things really cost to arrive a true value. If you know where
       to get a furling system for 200 dollars, please put it into this
       notes file.
    
    

Good point on the marine head.  I am going to adjust my spread sheet accordingly.

I agree on the cost of purchasing, let alone installing a foller furler.  I think
somebody like Cruising Design makes one in the $1500.00 range.  Still a far sight
more than I am willing to pay.  On my small boat and other small boats I have
sailed on, roller furling would have been an affectation.  The few large boats
I have been on, all had roller furling.  So I beleive it is much more desirable 
as the boat gets larger.

As stated in the explaination of the spreadsheet, this price is what roller furling
is worth to me, NOT necessarily what it is worth on the open market.  I expect 
that most people would assign a higher price than me.  On reflection, I am going
to double the value to me.  Thus if there were two "identical" boats for sale,
I would be willing to pay $400 more for the one with roller furling than for the 
one without it.  This is similar to home improvements.  Do improvements to your
boat because you want/need them.  Then be pleasantly surprised if some skin flint
like myself is willing to pay anything for them.

Doug

    I will suggest another boat to you, which you have not considered.
    The Bermuda 30. The boat was built in Taiwan, is ketch rigged, has
    clear spruce spars, full headroom, sleeps four, sails well.
    
    The design is basically an H28. I am sure a naval architect did the
    redesign, as the boat looks good and sails as well as can be expected
    for a ketch.
     
    The owner has health problems so is forced to sell. 
    
    The outside of the cabin is teak, and the decks are teak, the tiller is
    spruce.
    
    I have not been on the boat for a number of years, but the owner would
    have kept the boat in excellent condition.
    
    The asking price is less than $20k. The boat could go anyplace on the
    coast and probably offshore also. 
    
    If you are interested give me a call, 225-6941, or mail tolkin::hill

I have purchased my "perfect" cruiser.  As with any such purchase, logic only
plays a portion of the decision making process.  There are also the intangbiles
including but not restricted to, boat beauty, extras (lines, fenders, small
stuff etc), overall condition, cooperation of the current owner.  In this case
I hope to establish a mutually benificail sailing relationship with a man who
has been sailing for some 65 years.

Thanks to Bill Hill Tolkin:: I am purchasing a Bermuda 30 ketch made by Choy
Lee.  The owner has kept the boat in excellent condition (approaching Bristol
condition).  Hopefully the buying process will be completed by the end of the
month.

The boat is pleasing to the eye, with lots of high maintenance wood including
spars.  She is relatively narrow for her lenght, 8'9" beam.  This makes here
a relatively "small" 30 footer.  The narrow beam probably helps performance
which is handicapped with a full keel.

The spring will see her sailing out of one of two harbors, Manchester by the
Sea or Woods Hole.

Below is how she measured up to my spread sheet.  Incidentally, I lost who had
requested the Lotus spreadsheet.  If you send me mail again, I will put it on
a 3 1/2 for you and drop it in the mail.


Make            Choy Lee
Model           Bermuda 30 ketch
Year            1965
Who             Dick Ashenden
Phone
Price
        asking  16k
        BUC     17650 avg
        Delta   1650
        % Delta 1.10
        Offer   1450

Price Adjustments
        Required -35
        Desired 2170
Goodness Factor 5000    (I like the way she looks and feels)
Adjusted Price  7365
Adj Price < BUC 10205

Required Equ.
        VHF             0
        DS              0
        Motor           0
        Marine Head     0
        Jib             0
        Main            0
        Other sails     0
        Anchor+rode     0
        Hull            0
        Deck            0
        Auto Bilge      35
        Man Bilge       0
        Life Jackets    0
        Flares          0
        Running Rig     0
        Standing Rig    0
        Deck Lines      0
        Running Lights  0
Req total               35

Desired Equip
        Dingy           200
        Fenders         100
        Roller Furling  600 (padded luff on jib Harken roller reefing)
        Lazy Jacks      0
        Poppet Stands   0
        Spreader Lt     50
        MSD II          200
        Holding tank    0
        Inverter        0
        Inboard Motor   300
        Diesel          0
        Press. H2O      0
        Gas Stove       50
        Bimini          0
        Dodger          0
        CQR anchor      150
        Bruce Anchor    0
        Mult Batt.      120
        MOB equip       25
        Refridg         50
        K meter         75
        Loran           0
        Wheel           0
        Auto Pilot      250
        Wind sp/dir
        Full Batton Main
Desired total           2170

LOA     30
Beam    8'9"
Dsp     10,000

PHRF    sometime in June.  (Does anyone actually have this for my new boat?)

Screen # ~1.6 (This is far below the recommended 2.0)

Comfort factor
        D
        ______________________________
        0.65*(.7*LWL+0.3*LOA)*B**1.33

        10,000
        _____________________________
        0.65*(~27)*8.75**1.33

        31.8

        Comfort should be quite high.  These are similar to the numbers for
        the Valiant, and other boats discussed eleswhere in the notes
        (#2085.10).  Should be a comfortable coastal cruiser.


Now that I am broke and winter is neigh, I will work on a get together to see
photos etc. of the Souther Cross trip.

 

Doug
dtn 244-7042