Conference unifix::sailing

re .0:

If you haven't already, please see Note 3.4 for a list of SAILING notes 
that discuss buying a boat. Note 3.9 lists notes that discuss various 
specific boats and boat builders. 

Without knowing more about the type of sailing you are interested in 
doing and very roughly how much you are able/willing to spend it is difficult 
to recommend any particular boat. However, the general consensus in this 
notefile seems to be that Hunters are toward the low end in price and
quality, but they are fine for some types of sailing. Five people on any
boat under about 40' LOA will be crowded, especially on a rainy day. 

Alan

There are discussions elsewhere in the notes file about the relative merits
of various boats. The Hunters are relatively cheap boats, O'Day is a bit
more middle-of-the-road. Another boat that might be of interest to you
is the Catalina 30. They are fairly roomy and have reasonable performance,
and the quality is decent. There are also many other boats in this size range,
including the CAL '29, which I'm partial to, since I have one.

If you don't have much boating experience, I'd suggest you do a LOT of looking
before buying a boat. Sailboats are easy to buy and VERY hard to sell. The
costs of mooring, insurance and upkeep are quite substantial.

You can charter boats to learn more about what you want. You can charter
for two or three entire weeks for less than the annual cost of owning your
own boat. There are also sailing schools that teach sailing on boats of this
size, and there are sailing clubs where you can get regular use of cruising
boats, without the risks and commitment of personal ownership. If you do this
for a year or two, you'll have a much better idea of what you really want in
a boat.

If you do decide to buy a boat, get a survey done before you buy. There are
many expensive things that can be wrong with a boat, and they are frequently
not apparent to the untrained eye.

--RS

I own a Hunter 30 that I bought new back in '79. The boat was a 
production boat that was built using production techniques. By 
using mass production techniques, Hunter was able to keep their 
manufacturing costs down. It is unfortunate that their success in 
keeping cost down is now used against them by calling the boat 
"cheap." When I bought my boat, I could not get Hunter to make 
ANY modifications to their product because it would impact their 
production. Over the years most of the other lines have gone the 
way of the Passenger Pigeon while Hunter Marine has prospered. A 
company doesn't remain solvent and prosperous by building a shoddy 
product.

When we first considering a boat, we looked at all of the then 
popular models including Pearson, O'Day, Ranger, Bristol and 
Catalina. We narrowed our choices to the Hunter and Catalina; I 
preferred the Catalina and my wife preferred the Hunter. Hunter 
came with an attractive cruise package that included:

	diesel engine
	life lines
	electrical power
	2 batteries
	anchor
	sails
	life jackets
	curtains
	pedestal wheel steering

	and much more

Granted, these things appear as standard equipment today but 
they were not standard back in '79! In fact, Hunter's so called 
Cruise Package was copied by other manufacturers. Although I 
was in favor of Catalina at first, I quickly changed my mind 
when I found that everything offered by Hunter as standard was 
alacarte with Catalina. They didn't offer a diesel as standard 
equipment; life lines and electrical power were also extras. 
I went with my wife's choice and have not regretted that 
decision. Note that we sailed with 2 growing boys for the 
first 10 years of ownership.

I've read numerous times that Hunter is a light boat but I question 
what they are being compared against. My 30' boat has a published 
displacement of 9700# and is equipped with 4100# of lead ballast.
The boat handles well in rough weather and is not "tippy" as many 
of the other boats in this size range are. 

We still enjoy the boat and have added numerous extras including 
propane and refrigeration but I expect this will be our last 
year with it. When we sell it, it will be like parting with an 
old friend but we are at a point where we want to move up in 
size. I would highly recommend Hunter. It has been a reliable, 
safe vessel. But no matter what boat you elect to buy (if any) 
you should think of it as a toy, not an investment.


Joe

The last reply brings to mind a comment that applies to boats from any 
builder ...... One should be cautious in evaluating all boats from a 
builder based on any particular boat. Every design is different and has 
different characteristics. For example, I have a friend who has done 
considerable sailing (weeknight racing and a Boston to Maine passage) on a 
Hunter 34 and other friends who sailed the same boat back to Boston from 
Maine. They all concurred that the Hunter 34 is overly tender and 
cannot be comfortably or safely sailed to weather in even moderate 
winds. The friend who raced the boat was nearly washed overboard from 
the foredeck in a knockdown in winds that would have barely put the rail 
of a stiffer boat in the water. 

A point I've made before in this notesfile is that you need to be sure
you understand the bias or viewpoint of the person making the comments.
My comments tend to be from the viewpoint of offshore cruising, for
instance. One's opinions about this or that boat tend to be colored by
one's particular interest. A racer would scorn my boat, no doubt, while
I tend to be (overly, perhaps) critical of racing-oriented boats. If you
are intending to do coastal daysailing and vacations in less than severe 
weather, a Hunter is fine. If you are intending to venture offshore, a
Hunter is not a good choice, in my view. 

Once you've narrowed your choice a bit, I'd suggest contacting the some 
owners through Cruising World magazine's Another Opinion reference list. 
You might also check the used boat reviews that have been done by 
Practical Sailor. 

Alan

    If you have done very little sailing, then there is really one sure piece 
    of advise.... Don't buy yet!
    
    You are probably going to convince yourself about what you want based
    on criterai gained from others or from boat magazines (comics). First
    work out what is right for you.
    
    Most professionals would advise:
                       
      1. Go to a sail training school for a week (or three consecutive 
         weekends). Whatever your U.S. equivalent of the Royal Yachting
         Association's Competent Crue course would be ideal. 
            --- writing this from the U.K. by the way :-)
    
      2. If you like it - take a skippers course (something like Day
         Skipper)
    
      3. This will give you a piece of paper showing your competence. With
         this you should be able to get a charter boat - and take it somewhere
         testing enough to find out if you enjoy being out on your own.
    
      4. If this works out - charter anything and everything. (I think you
         will find your earlier selection criteria will change)
    
      5. Then next year BUY!
    
    When I started looking, I was dead set on a racing boat. After
    three years of training and charter, I bought a 33 foot motor sailor
    and crue for a number of racing teams throughout the winter season when
    my family are happier reading Practical Boat Owner by the fire.
    
    Good luck. John
    

    A small but important point: 
    
                 "Every boat is a compromise in design."
    
    Buy a boat based upon its sailing characteristics first, then
    accomodations second.  In other words, don't fall in love with the
    cabin and space without due consideration for its sailing abilities. 
    I've owned a bunch of boats (8), and the two with the best
    accomodations 'for their size' (a CAL25 and Catalina 22) were real dogs
    under different points of sail (windward).  To provide all those
    accomodations, designers often have to make compromises and performance
    is one of those.  You don't have to have a racing boat to enjoy
    performance nor a blue-water tanker to have safety - but somewhere in
    between, boats tend to be on one end of a continuium: safety-to-racing.
    
    Most recently I bought a Catalina 22 over a J-22.  I never enjoyed the
    slothful sailing abilities of the Catalina and so I sold it.  I still
    like the J-22 but a smarter alternative for me might have been to buy a
    Capri 22 which has slightly better accomodations than the J-22 but can
    run circles around the Catalina.   Another 22 footer, a CAL22 is also a
    good boat for performance but a hard one to sell around N.E (see
    below).  TAKE THIS COMPARISON AS A MINI EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU'LL FIND IN
    THE 28 TO 30' RANGE WHICH IS MUCH, MUCH LARGER TO CHOOSE FROM.
    
    Second point: buy a boat that you can resell since you will sell sooner
    than you think (forget this "we'll keep this boat forever stuff").   As
    a beginner, you can't possibly know the things you need to know to buy
    the "ultimate" boat.  Look at keeping this boat 2-5 years and then
    you'll know what you really want (like buying a house for the first
    time).  So buy defensively.  What boats are popular in your area?  If
    you buy a perfectly good boat but is relatively unknown in your area,
    you will have to lower your asking price accordingly.  In N.E., buying
    a J-anything, a C&C, a Catalina, Pearson, Hunter, etc. mean that you
    have a buying public that knows those brands and will be buy it. 
    However, try selling the Pearson in Florida or a CAL in N.E.
    
    If I were you, I'd recommend you buy an older Catalina 30 that you buy
    cheaply ($20K) and resell cheaply.  There's always a market on the
    low-end ---- it's the middle ground that is hard to sell in. The
    Catalina 30 is as big as a barn and sometimes sails  a little strange
    with its mammoth beam ... but overall, I like the boat.
    
    Bob

    
    	True, the Catalina 30 is a fine boat, and there are ZILLIONS of
    them around New England- but they are gonna cost noticeably more than a
    comparable O'Day 30 or Hunter 28.
    
    	O'day and Hunter each make a fine product- not the best, not the
    worst. It's like a Chevy which is neither a Benz or a Yugo, but runs
    fine- ya know?
    
    	One suggestion- with the kids in mind, chartering for a few
    weekends seems like a _real_ good idea, if you haven't all shared the
    space. You'll see how they react. By the way, unless you're gonna spend
    weeks at a time in it, don't sweat the accomodations too much. I do
    daysails, primarily, and the cockpit, not the cabin, is the hangout!
    
    	Also, there are sailing clubs in Boston where you can learn, and
    when they deem you ready, you can take their big cruiser out. No too
    much coin involved either!
    
    	2_more_�
    
    	Scott

    I concur with much of the advice that is offered free of charge here.
    The encouragement that I offer is to be patient with the process that
    you will probably have to go through. The good news is that due to the
    wide variety of boats available your 'perfect' boat is out there.  The
    bad news is that there is a considerable learning curve to go through
    to understand your own needs and many decisions (and trade-offs) to go
    though to find 'your' boat.
    
    In our case we started sailing on other people's boats to insure that
    we both liked it.  We then were given a 15' trailerable sloop and
    gained independent experience.  We took some classroom saftey
    instruction at this time.
    
    We then spent over a year looking for a 25 to 30 foot boat and finally
    made an offer on a 27' Catalina which was not for sale but was
    obviously not being used by her owner. Our first offer was not
    accepted, but six months later we checked back with him and his wife
    convinced the owner that he really did want to sell us the boat! This
    was the 'perfect' boat for us at the time.  We learned a lot, survived
    a nasty storm, and developed confidence and a taste for a more capable
    vessel that could take us wherever we wanted to go.
    
    In all it took us five years of looking to find our present boat (or
    for her to find us)! In the process of looking we learned a lot about
    various boat designs, characteristics, quality, and our own changing
    views on what was important to us. 
    
    The main point is that through all of this we had a boat and were on
    the water getting experience.  That is what was most enjoyable to us. 
    The searching was really a back-drop to the love-affair that we happen
    to have with sailboats and the sea.
    
    The way my wife puts it is, we did all of the logical "stuff", walking
    the docks, talking to owners, going to boat shows, reading the books,
    looking at the catalogues, doing the calculations, etc. but in the end
    we went with our hearts, and that is what seems to give spirit to the
    entire experience.
    
    I wish you well in your search.
    
         Howard
                                                                

    And now for another consideration.
    
    If your experience with sailing is somewhat limited, there is an
    alternative to buying.  And that is to join a sailing club.
    
    The advantages are that for a modest amount (anywhere from $500 to
    $3500), you can get a lot of sailing done in a lot of different boats
    without having to make a commitment to any of them.
    
    I have been in 4 clubs and have so enjoyed the variety, everything from
    19 foot daysailers to 36 foot cruisers, from day sails to week long
    cruises to exciting races on muiti-hulls, that I have decided to not
    purchase anything.
    
    Sailing clubs give you all the benefits of sailing without the costs,
    headaches or bother of ownership.  Of course, there is still the tug on
    the heartstrings to say I own a boat, but with so much available in the
    clubs or for charter, you may want to investigate these club/charters
    as a way to experiment with different boats and sailing experience.
    
    If needed, I can give you some names and phone numbers.
    
    Paul

    April Crusing world has a reasonable article on "good buys" in the US
    market.  I also discusses some geographic differences between markets
    (Florida Vs. Maine etc.)

    I super Catalina 30 1982 Color-Almond for Sale.
    Call: Rick Ainslie (508) 384-7993.
    I have seen this boat, It is very clean. I have a listing if you
    need more info.

    Thanks for the replys, we now have a Hunter 27...