[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference unifix::sailing

Title:SAILING
Notice:Please read Note 2.* before participating in this conference
Moderator:UNIFIX::BERENS
Created:Wed Jul 01 1992
Last Modified:Mon Jun 02 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2299
Total number of notes:20724

1913.0. "Several Novice Questions" by AHIKER::EARLY (Bob Early, Digital Services) Wed Aug 19 1992 17:09

    Novice Sailor:
     
    Even after several careful searches, several questions come up
    which still remain unanswered (to me). Its been once said (at 
    least once by David West: "The obvious is that which tends to remain
    hidden until clearly explained".)

    Boat Buying: 
    I have seen a number of ads for boats in various classes, with a very
    wide variation in prices for what seems to be very little difference
    in footage; much of the price changes being dependent on brandnamse,
    such O'Day and MacGregor (to name 2).
    
    Which publication might be used to describe and show pictorials of 
    sailing boats, of the various types, classes, and primary use ?
    
    Assuming that some people may not ride out the next few waves of 
    DECs' downsizing; what is the next best place to get more/less
    reliable opinions/informatin about sailing type questions (I question
    if a notesfile equivalent to this one is available, but may as well
    ask now). ;^)  ??

    Typically, are 'private' yacht clubs a good place to get the same
    sort of information we get here in the notes file ?
    
    Which magazines/subscriptions are considered 'basic' to novice
    sailors planning to "stay with the sport" for the long term ?
    
    Which stores (bookstores) generally carry  fair selection of sailing
    books / magazines in the So NH or Central to Eastern Mass area ?
    
    /Bob
        
    
    
        
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
1913.1Places to buy booksLJOHUB::HEERMANCEBelly Aching on an Empty StomachThu Aug 20 1992 10:3316
    Out of Town News in Harvard Square is the place to buy magazines.
    Wordsworth, also in Harvard Square, has a good selection of sailing
    books in the annex on the second floor.  I bought a book on sailing
    theory to learn how this magic works.  While poking around I saw
    several books on boat ownership, financing and alternatives.  One
    book had a great graph of cost versus size, another had the great
    quote "How do you and your spouse feel about debt?"

    Personally, I'm going to stay a member of a club it's a cheap
    way to stay sailing.

    In Nashua the new magazine store in the Pheasant Lane Mall would
    be a good place to look for magazines.  Barnes and Noble on DW
    highway in Nashua would be a good place to look for books.

    Martin
1913.2Some random thoughtsWBC::RODENHISERThu Aug 20 1992 14:17154
|    Novice Sailor:
|     
|    Even after several careful searches, several questions come up
|    which still remain unanswered (to me). Its been once said (at 
|    least once by David West: "The obvious is that which tends to remain
|    hidden until clearly explained".)

    Bob, for some lunch hour amusement I'll try to answer a few of these,
    although as you suggest, I think you've  already got a good grasp of
    the obvious. I don't know how much discussion this  note will generate
    as some of the subjects have been debated exhaustively  elsewhere in
    the conference. But here goes anyway.

|    Boat Buying: 
|    I have seen a number of ads for boats in various classes, with a very
|    wide variation in prices for what seems to be very little difference
|    in footage; much of the price changes being dependent on brandnames,
|    such O'Day and MacGregor (to name 2).

    Length is not the determining factor in boat prices, any more than say,
    number of passengers might be in car prices. Why does a a Porsche Targa
    or a Corvette cost more than a Ford wagon or a Yugo? They only carry
    two people, and have hardly any trunk. The answer is: they are designed
    for different purposes and built to differing quality standards. Same
    with boats. Some are intended for inland pond or lake use, others for
    coastal salt water, still others for reasonably long distance or
    overnight cruising, and ultimately some for round_the_world jaunts. Are
    they daysailers or floating homes (loaded with gadgets & batteries).
    Further complicating the picture is the difference between production,
    semi_custom, and fully_custom built designs. 
    
    To be more direct with your examples of O'Day and MacGregor we'd need
    to know exactly which two models you're comparing. As a generalization,
    O'Day in it's day (pun intended) built many more models which would
    *usually* be considered to be higher quality than MacGregor. [The
    problem with all of these discussions, is that it's real difficult to
    express opinions without sooner or later insulting someone; as I've now
    just done with all the MacGregor owners out there. You'll see this sort
    of thing throughout the file.] Somewhere there is a note where folks
    were trying to rank all the popular manufacturers. It's very subjective
    with no two opinions exactly alike. BTW, both O'Day and MacGregor are
    quite low in the food chain, when you consider the complete spectrum of
    what's out there; i.e. they're high volume, low cost, production boats. 

|    Which publication might be used to describe and show pictorials of 
|    sailing boats, of the various types, classes, and primary use ?

    The simplest and easiest to find on the newstands is the annual
    publication from SAIL magazine called: "Sailboat & Equipment Directory
    199x." The 1993 edition should be out soon. I have some of these going
    back a number of years but I'm not that close to you. There ought to be
    a local noter who will loan  you some of these. Even so, this is not an
    all inclusive list of what's  available. Shows favoritism, and is slanted
    toward regular SAIL magazine advertisers.

|    Assuming that some people may not ride out the next few waves of 
|    DECs' downsizing; what is the next best place to get more/less
|    reliable opinions/informatin about sailing type questions (I question
|    if a notesfile equivalent to this one is available, but may as well
|    ask now). ;^)  ??
    
    I don't know of any other electronic forums. Is there a rec.sailing ?

|    Typically, are 'private' yacht clubs a good place to get the same
|    sort of information we get here in the notes file ?
    
    Those with active small boat sailing programs, yes. Most others, probably
    not, although I suppose there may be exceptions. (See comments re: going
    sailing.)

    
|    Which magazines/subscriptions are considered 'basic' to novice
|    sailors planning to "stay with the sport" for the long term ?
    
    Lots of differing opinions here. Some of the most common ones are:
    
    Sail             Must for the novice. Can get boring after the 12th "How
                     to tack", "How to learn how to tack", "How to teach
                     someone how to Tack", "Teaching your dog how to tack",
                     or "Tack'ers I have known" article.
    
    Cruising World   Stories about faraway places. Food. Cruising life.
    
    Yachting         "Official America's Cup" magazine. Good charter info. 
                     Otherwise minimal content. For the Blue Blazer types.
                     I love it! Great for 'wasting' time fantasizing about
                     things you'll never be able to afford, *even* if you
                     did win the lottery. Mix of power/sail. 
    
    Soundings        Power and Sail. Really a monthly newspaper. Regional
                     editions. Largest (64 pages) classified ad section
                     (Boats For Sale).
    
    Offshore         Small scale Soundings. Little less newsy. Lots of ads,
                     New England coverage only. Somewhat Power focused.
    
    Sailing World    Racing oriented. Results, etc.
    
    WoodenBoat       Duh? Actually, best coverage of it's stated subject of
                     any magazine on this list. Lots of plans and 'how to
                     build' stuff.
    
    Sailing          Great Lakes orientation. Rarely seen in New England
                     newstands.
    
    Ocean Navigator  Nitty gritty navigation stuff. Pretty advanced. If you
                     buy Scientific American strictly to look at the pictures,
                     you won't like this one.
    
    Coastal Cruising Mostly Intra-coastal waterway (southeast US coast)
                     cruising. Low key, low budget, folksy production.
                     Doubt you'll find this in NE either.
    
    Practical Sailor The Consumer Reports of sailing. Product comparisons
                     and 'how to' stuff. No advertising, very opinionated.
                     Bi-weekly. Expensive! (To my knowledge this is
                     subscription only.)
    
    And a couple from across the pond (UK), very hard to find on the average
    newstand:
    
    Yachting Monthly
    Yachting World
    
    Sail, Cruising World, and Yachting are pretty predictable in that they
    will each have the annual commissioning, decommissioning, and charter
    directory issues.

    There are also more 'members only' magazines available from boating
    organizations such as the Power Squadron, USYRU (US Yacht Racing Union,
    which actually has a new name now) and several others.

|    Which stores (bookstores) generally carry  fair selection of sailing
|    books / magazines in the So NH or Central to Eastern Mass area ?
    
    For magazines, in So NH, try the malls. In the GMA try "The Paper
    Store" (Maynard, Acton, Hudson, etc). Other places near the water;
    Marblehead, Boston, Newport. For books, any bookstore will have some.
    Selection increases as you get nearer the coastline. There are many
    mail-order catalog and member book clubs.
    
    Above all, if you are really serious about gathering information,  the
    Newport RI Sailboat Show (always starts the Thursday after Labor Day)
    is an absolute must attend event.

    Otherwise, find someone to take you sailing. The more often, the
    better. Race, cruise, doesn't matter. (There's hardly a boat owner
    around who wouldn't trade a couple of days on the water with you for a
    few hours of bottom sanding, painting or waxing assistance in the
    spring.) 
    
    Sign up for a Power Squadron or Coast Guard Auxiliary boating safety course.
    
    JR
1913.3UNIFIX::BERENSAlan BerensThu Aug 20 1992 14:3811
re .2:

Minor correction: Ocean Navigator began life as a magazine about 
navigation. Its current orientation is really offshore voyaging. For 
example, the current issue has an article about rudder design by Bob
Perry. Recent issues have discussed self-steering, electricity
generation, refrigeration, etc. It is a serious magazine for serious 
sailors, and it is one of the two magazines I read more or less
completely (the other is WoodenBoat). 

Alan
1913.4YupWBC::RODENHISERThu Aug 20 1992 15:109
    Right Alan. 
    
    I should have said "navigation and other serious stuff".
    
    BTW, I agree about it's usefulness. It is the ONLY magazine I
    keep in a permanent collection (besides PS, which I have
    now let lapse, since my local library has it.)
    
    JR
1913.5No, no amusement intended ... AHIKER::EARLYBob Early, Digital ServicesThu Aug 20 1992 17:4924
re: -< Some random thoughts >-

>the obvious. I don't know how much discussion this  note will generate
>as some of the subjects have been debated exhaustively  elsewhere in

    Yes, much of what is said has been said .. spread over a few thousand
    replies, but even though keyworded .. not quite so succinctly, nor
    with as much aplomb and grace  (dig out the boots) ... ;^) as what
    you've entered. Thanks.
    
    But, you see, I do understand people who really do have no practical
    knowledge about some given subject. I see these people often in
    other notesfiles which I moderate.
    
    But time, opportunity, and other factors have challenged me to find a
    sport compatible with my current situation .. it just happens that
    Sailing was my wife's favorite sport many years back .. but again ..
    time and opportunity stood in her way .. until now .. so now together
    .. we can take on this sport together 
    
    /Bob
    
    
    
1913.6Tell us more about what you'd like to do.WBC::RODENHISERThu Aug 20 1992 23:4339
    The problem with researching old notes is somewhat like playing
    Dungeons & Dragons - lots ot twisty little mazes - with the meat of the
    subject buried 27 replies deep.
    
    Who knows, with a little more detail we might keep this note going
    after all. Knowing that both you and your wife have a mutual interest
    helps a lot. What are your goals, short term and long. For example:
    
    - The wife and I think we like to get a Sunfish to keep up at the camp.
    
    - The wife and I are going to kiss the jobs goodbye, sell the house,
      buy that bluewater cruiser, head to the carribean and from there
      who knows where....
    
    I presume it'll be somewhere in between.
    
    
    While I've got the time, I figure I'll expand upon my Yachting magazine
    reading style alluded to earlier. (This only applies to the boat ad's)
    
    First I study all the 60 footers and dream of what it'd be like to own
    one of these suckers. I'd sail to exotic places far and wide. Just
    sail. Time to tack? Press a button. Course I'd pay someone else to do
    all the maintenance. Not a care in the world.
    
    Then I migrate to the 90 footers. Now I'm still being practical about
    all of this, so I recognize that I'll need a little help. Crew of
    three ought to do it. Maybe now I'll let them do most of the sailing.
    What the hell, I'll still take the helm now and then on the beam reaches.
    
    Tired of the 90's? Lets look at the 120's (and up!). Now I'm up to a
    crew of six. And they won't let me touch the helm any more! All I get
    to do is tell them where I want to go. And stay the hell out of the
    way! By this time sailing isn't fun any more.
    
    Not to worry. By this time I'm also done with Yachting magazine and out
    it goes. Back to the real world.
    
    JR
1913.7New to sailing, not life .....AHIKER::EARLYBob Early, Digital ServicesFri Aug 21 1992 11:1854
re: Several Novice questions on Sailing ..               6 of 6
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                 -< Tell us more about what you'd like to do. >-
>Who knows, with a little more detail we might keep this note going
>after all. Knowing that both you and your wife have a mutual interest
>helps a lot. What are your goals, short term and long. For example:

On the practical side, we could just keep up our membership in RPSC;
get qualified as competent sailors (ie know how to sail without being 
a hazard or a liability), and use the boats in L. Quinsigamond, Charles R.
basin, and Lowell. At some point we're going to get tired of the little brown
house; the Lowell Damns and the water inlet; and the Hatch Shell .. perhaps
even wanting to venture up to Acadia NP, P. Town, or Nantucket ...

On this end of the scale, I feel something similar to the 17' foot 1974
O'Day Daysailers, trailerable and launchable from the 'community pier'
or the 'community boat ramp' is what we're looking at. I like the idea
of taking a few people out (4 perhaps) for a few hours sail; perhaps around
the lake. Reasonable single person handling; and a 'fun' boat .. stable
enough to have lunch comforatbly; pull up to that 'magical deserted beach'
for a few hours of solitude with the missus ...

Later, will come the elecronics; position finder, cruises up and down
the Coast of Maine; down the the Vineyard (no, i don't know why?. its there !),
and possible further.

Initially, its got to be under (around $2,000); ideally under 1K. I've 
seen ads for a few under $900.00 in relativley land-locked towns away
from the main stream of life (pun intended)... But what are they, in terms
of quality .. if addtional parts / sail are necessary, can they be obtained
(like a new centerboard or a rudder; mast steps .. how often do they really
break ... delamination .. some fiberglss does delaminate ... wood boats ..
ar they worth the extra trouble (or are they like old houses .. nice, historic,
and lots, lots, $$$$$$$ extra work for small gains).

Trailers ... what to look for; how good/big do they need tto be .. are the
ones that tilt worth the extra $$$; is an 'extendable tongue' really needed.

I may be new to sailing, but I bring knowledge about many things from the past
(my Dad was rigger in the shipyard, and also did some steeplejack work; 
I've researched fibglas fairings, I've repaired  a Loran for an employer,
designed electronic readouts for the Fathometer(R); worked brackwater surveys,
and bought submarine cable, and am fully aware what a 3 foot sea is to
a 14 foot boat; coupled a mini-ranger to a HP PLotter for Marine Survey
Work (as well as done core samples) ... I know how to take care of canvass,
although most sails are not canvass anymore ... I guess Kevlar is the
sail of choice now .. and it won't rot either ...

Its just that I've never Sailed or owned a boat (other than a canoe) ...

Thanks for the good info ... its been helpful .. 

/Bob