Conference unifix::sailing

    Check out a copy of Soundings and/or Offshore.
    
    (Should be able to find these at most decent size newstands. Not far
    from your work location is the "Paper Store" in the shopping center
    at the end of I-290 in Hudson; at entrance to HLO plant.) 
    
    Most issues have a number of ads for repossessed/foreclosed boats.
    Tonight I'll get you the phone numbers of several.
    
    Plus, just the general ads in these same publications often have
    (if you read between the lines) sellers in similar situations.
    
    JR
    

    Here's a couple of places to check out:
    
    Certified Sales Inc               508-478-0200
    Rt 16, 19 Uxbridge Rd             or Fla location
    Mendon, MA                        305-584-2500
    
    Bank Repos & Rebuildables
    
    =============================
    
    Key Corp
    Key Financial Services
    Contact: Samuel A. Finelli, Jr   518-486-8645
    66 S. Pearl St
    Albany, NY
    
    Repossessions - All Boats Must Go!
    
    =====================================
    
    New England Marine Recovery
    Noank Shipyard                   203-536-9686
    Pearl ST
    Noank, CT
    
    Repos, Liquidations, Brokerage
    
    ====================================
    
    Worldwide Yachts
    350 Lincoln St (Rt 3A)        617-740-2628
    Hingham, MA
    
    The Banks Don't Want 'Em
    So We've Got To Sell 'Em
    
    ======================================
    
    Northeast Marine Liquidation   203-599-0123
    
    Bank Repos - Power - Sail
    
    =====================================
    
    Federal Liquidators Inc
    143 Southwest Cutoff           508-752-1474
    Worcester, MA
    
    Reposessions - All boats sold to high bid.
    

    Thanks for all the pointers once again John. I stopped by Certified
    last night and the only decent boat they had was a really nice repo'd
    1986 Catalina 36. Its a beautiful boat, well taken care of but the
    bank won't take less than $35K for it and I'd like to keep down to
    about $20K. Its amazing that the stink pots seem to out number the
    real boats at least 10 to 1. They said they only get 7 or 8 decent
    repos a year in there. Realistically something about 10 years old
    and 30' or under is what I'll find, sure was nice checking that baby
    out though.

    
    	The bank is dreaming.... unless the thing is immaculate/flawless.
    Certified is a pretty funky place, all right. Their sailing expertise
    is low, but I saw a racer there that had a VERY flexible, name-your
    price. But it's like Building 19; you have to be there pretty often 
    to see what comes in. I saw some real handyman-special daysailors out
    back too. Fun stuff.
    Scott.

    It might not be "the bank" that won't take $35 it might be them. Its
    not clear whether the bank gives them a fixed fee or anything over
    the outstanding loan they can recover. I suspect the later since
    the bank can't legally keep anything over the loan plus liqudation
    costs and these guys open bid until the bitter end. It certainly
    wasn't flawless but was in good general condition for a 6 year old
    boat. They told me the bank had turned down $33K BTW. The exterior
    hull was in excellent condition but could use paint. The interior
    was in good condition with no abuse or damage of any kind noted.
    The motor, a three cylinder Universal Diesel was in surprizingly
    clean condition. The stuffing box looked clean and felt solid.
    The propshaft bearings had no play, either way, and felt solid.
    the rudder post had about 1/4" inch of lateral play at 3 feet but
    perhaps thats normal. Also the keel anchors had no radial stress
    cracks or any other signs of fatigue evident. The deck was clean
    with only the slightest hazing on the clear plexi. I didn't pull
    the sails out of the bags but if they were anything like the rest
    of the boat they were in good shape too. The price didn't seem
    unreasonable compared to some of the prices I've seen yet you seem
    surprized??? You think thats high for a decent 36??????
    
    
    							--Graham--

Re:
    >MILKWY::WAGNER "Scott"                                8 lines  14-JUL-1992
    >                             -< Used Boat Boogie >-
    >--------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    >	The bank is dreaming.... unless the thing is immaculate/flawless.
                    ^^^^^^^^
    
    This is sort of academic as Graham has indicated that this boat is out
    of his price range anyway, but do you have any real data on this?
    
    Without a lot of research, the first four Catalina 36's (roughly same
    age) I found in Soundings had ASKING prices of: $54K, $53.9K,
    $64.9K and $57.5K.  Haven't checked BUC but mid $30's didn't sound all
    that bad to me.
    
    JR
    
    (Whether I'd want one is another story.)

Graham, you might want to call the REPO DEPOT in Kittery, ME.   I go by 
there often, and they seem to have many boats which appear to be in good
condition.


Was just by there last weekend, on the way to my own boat, and I noted that
they had no sailboats that day. They seemed to have only motor boats, but I 
have previously seen sailboats there.   Perhaps a call to them would be worth it.

Wish I had the phone number for you...


Carol

    Thanks for the lead but the story with the liquidators seems to be the 
    same, very few decent sail boats. Perhaps this is indicative of a more
    conservative type of person who owns sail? They did say however that 
    come fall the repo business "picks up" if you'll excuse the expression.
    I did find one in "soundings" that caught my eye down in New London
    that I may take a look at. Perhaps John or anyone with the experience
    can comment on the price. Its a 1981 Catalina 30' Good condition,
    Universal Diesel but only 11 Hp,Hood mainsail, 150% Genoa (new in 92)
    (O'Neil) Hood 110% lapper, spinnaker by O'Neil and dodger. Lots of
    other options in the rigging and cabin. Loran (raytheon) VHF (horizon)
    etc etc. They are asking $26.700. Since my budget is about 20 we may
    be close enough to dance.
    
    							--Graham--

	I have Catalina 30 hull #17...  A few thoughts

	The 11 hp is grossly underpowered in anything other than a flat calm.
They were originally made with an Atomic 4, then the 11 hp, then 18 hp and now
23 hp diesels... I re-powered with a 25 hp Universal, and that's perhaps a bit
of overkill, but I had the room and the price difference wasn't that great...

	Some model years have the hot water heater in the lazerette..  With
the engine in the main salon, that's quite a ways for the coolant to travel
to the heat exchanger...

	26k for that boat sounds very high to me...

As a point of reference:

I paid $17K for a 1973 CAL 2-29 last year. This boat is roughly equivalent
to the Catalina 30 in original purchase price, displacement , etc. I think
the price was fair, but not a steal.

If you're looking for a bargain, truly OLD boats are a good place to look.
However, you must expect to spend substantial money on improvements.
For example, I have replaced lifelines ($700), ports ($600), instruments
($700), and $many miscellaneous on the CAL since I bought it, and there is
plenty of stuff that still needs improving.

Note that old boats (>10 years) are very rarely repos, because most of them
are not mortgaged.

When looking at old boats, pay attention to the stuff that is NOT fiberglass,
e.g. the WOOD cores, lines, standing rigging, engine, etc.

By the way, I agree with Alan that bigger is not necessarily better. I would
suggest buying the smallest boat that will accommodate you and your cruising
companions in reasonable comfort. If you have additional money to spend, spend
it on quality and additional gear. 

I have a 12 HP Farymann diesel. It's marginal. In a strong blow and chop, it
takes a combination of sail and power to stay off the lee shore. The Farymann
can't do it alone. When you're in this situation, you might wish for a 4 cyl
Perkins. You might even wish for an Atomic 4.

--RS

    Good advice. I definately would re-power, there's no substitute for
    cubic inchs even when your primary power is sail. Does anyone know
    whether a bigger engine (universal) can be dropped in with only
    moving the mounts and a bigger propeller? Yes the price does sound
    high. My insurance agent looked up the value and saw a high retail
    of $22.2K. If I like it I'll offer $17.5 and be prepared to go to
    $19k but no more. Maybe we'll sit this one out, but then again
    maybe we'll Mamba. I assume the heater your talking about under
    the lazarette is for dommestic HW. The spec sheet says it has
    HW with 110VAC only. I assume this means no engine generated HW.
    The minimum comfort we want wouldn't come in anything less than
    27-30' so I'am looking at the minimum acceptable sizes. I like
    the Catalinas looks and quality (for a coastal cruiser, a blue
    water boat it isn't). Also with so many out there and still being
    in business I should have minimum hassle when it comes time to
    sell it. Do any of you have any particular things to look for
    (faults) with boats 10-12 years old? I'll certainly have it 
    surveyed but I'll still go over it as thoroughly as possible
    before I get that far. I appreciate all the good suggestions
    and input from all you sea dogs out there.
    
    
    						--Graham--
    

re .11:

Well, I am not sure a bigger engine is necessarily better. There is a
tradeoff to be made. Much horsepower is needed to turn a large
propeller, and horsepower requires fuel. The drag of a large
(non-feathering) propeller seriously reduces sailing performance. The
displacement of our 32' cutter is about 12000 pounds. Based on fuel
consumption of about 0.5 gallon per hour, our 25 hp diesel is actually
only making about 8 hp at a cruising speed of 5.7 kts, well below hull
speed. (If I wanted to get places faster, I'd buy a trawler.) This gives
us a range under power of maybe 500 miles. Since our boat is very stiff,
sailing to weather in strong winds is quite possible, so that powering
off a lee shore is not something I worry much about or would even
consider doing. When our engine needs replacement, I will not look for a
bigger one. 

Alan 

Re:.12

I normally find myself in agreement with Alan's comments, but not 
this time. I own a 30' Hunter (79) that has a published 
displacement of 10,000#  originally powered with a 12 HP 
Yanmar diesel. I have added much to the boat, including heavy 
batteries that must add at least another 1000# to the total 
displacement; I have had to move the water line higher.

The engine ran reliably well for 11 years but was 
grossly underpowered. I can tell of horror stories trying to fight 
my way through Woods Hole or just trying to power against a 
strong wind and tide. The top speed of the boat with no wind was 
about 6 knots but with wind and waves, try 2.5 knots! When it 
gets sh---- out there and one wants to get into port, its nice 
have the horse power to make it happen.

Last year I repowered with a 20 HP Universal made by Kubota. 
That engine powers a 14" 3 bladed prop and I can almost make the 
boat plane. I can push my way through situations when necessary, 
that I would never attempt with the 12 HP originally installed. 
Because I don't race the boat, I don't care about the penalty 
paid with the prop. I sail Buzzards Bay and the wind is 
plentiful during most times driving the boat to over 6 knots.

As to fuel, I recognize that the larger engine burns more but I 
only burned about 20 gallons all of last season. I highly 
recommend a larger engine.

Joe

    I certainly understand Alans point, however the larger engine is for
    the times when you NEED it not all the time. I'd feel alot better
    knowing that the power is there when I need it. :^) Of course if
    I really wanted power I'd drop in a Jimmy 6-71 with a Garrett
    turbocharger and a jet drive but thats another discussion I think :^)
    As Joe says, you don't want to be out there when the weather turns
    ugly and you can only make 2 kts against the tide. I'd consider it
    a safety feature more than anything else. One of the boats I'am
    looking at is 10,200 with 11 HP and another is an 85 27' with
    what they claim is a 17HP, probably adequate.

re .last few:

Ah, once again we have a situation where there is no single "correct" 
answer. We have almost never sailed in areas of strong currents and have 
found that we can sail to weather far, far more comfortably than we can 
motor to weather (and as quickly) in anything other than a flat calm. 
Other boats with other engines obviously behave differently. I prefer 
not to sacrifice sailing performance by having a larger propeller 
(Practical Sailor estimates that a three-blade propeller can cost a knot 
in light winds, as I recall). We also prefer not to sacrifice range 
under power simply to go a little faster. 

What's important is to recognize that there are multiple answers and to 
be able to choose the solution that is best for your sailing.

Alan

    You absolutely correct Alan. I'am more concerned about being caught in 
    currents without wind than sailing to the weather to get out of a jam.
    A larger engine doesn't necessarily mean increased fuel consumption.
    The fuel used is controlled by the power developed. A 20 HP motor
    throttled to 8 Hp is going to use about the same amount as a 12HP
    developing 8 HP. One thought about prop drag is to use a folding
    prop. The reverse thurst would be limited by the centrifugal force
    trying to deploy the blades, I imagine I'd get some thrust though.
    Anybody ever used a folding screw? More "expert" commentary requested
    on types. A broker called the other day offering a 1984 Sovereign 28.
    A center cockpit rig with all the ammenities I want. It has a BMW 12HP
    Sea water cooled motor????? It has a shoal keel, most of the sails are
    original (84) and it has full electronics and is supposedly in good/
    excellent condition. The asking is $25K but the broker assures me
    high teens would not be unreasonable. He says its constuction is
    slightly above a Catalina and equal to a Pearson. The thing that
    bothers me is that I've never heard of this make before. He says
    they were in production for about 20 years and went under in the 
    squeeze of 88. I'am going to take a look at it this weekend but
    personal experiences or other input would be appreciated.