Conference unifix::sailing

    
    Not to my knowledge. However the marina may require you to take
    some precautions, and those were probably dicatated by the EPA.
    
    These i'm sure vary among the marina's.
    
    Some may require you put down drop cloths to avoid dripping the 
    paint onto the ground etc. i would check with them first.
    
    I'm sure that all of us hate to paint the bottom. I would suggest
    you look into a multi-season paint EX; Interlux Micron CSC is one
    of them. I have used it for several seasons, this will be the 3rd.
    It only requires touching up after the initial coat, there
    is no scraping or sanding required. The pressure washing in the
    fall preps the bottom for spring touch up..
    
    JIm
    
    

    
    	Some marinas just don't like owners working on their own boats-
    when I bought mine, it was in such a place. Now their idea of
    acceptable work included painting over barnacles. I paid to haul her to
    another place, just opened, behind one of those rent-a-garage places
    North of Falmouth. I believe the town told the owner of this yard not
    to get much paint/chemicals on the ground. He relayed to me, make sure
    I use a tarp when scraping and painting. So, yep, bottom paint is not
    the environmentalists' darling. Of course, copper sulfate is dumped
    into lakes and ponds which have clogged with weeds... hmmmm.
    
    	The only law relevant is the no-tin-allowed rule. Unless you bought
    a bunch of paint 4 or 5 years ago, what you're using is probably legal.
    And if you're hull is very big, or aluminum, or property of the Navy,
    the rule doesn't apply anyway }:*[.
    
    	Ask the marina owners... to be safe!

    With regard to the Micron CSC type bottom paints, how successful are
    they ?  My boat is in an estuary where there is either fresh or salt
    water based on the tide.  There is not a heavy amount of fouling,
    usually just a small "beard" around the waterline.  I am thinking of
    changing from the vinyl based (tbtf-type) paint that is still around
    (!) to one of the ablative paints - the "DEVON" system seems popular in
    my area.
    
    I also recall a note that discussed scrapeing Vs.  paint removers etc.
    and raised the possibility of using Oven Cleaner ... anyone have any
    ideas re the best method for about 8 years worth of antifoul build up
    (fiberglass hull) ?

    
    re: how successful are they?
    
    I've been pleased with the results, but it did not prevent slime
    from building up.  What does build up is easy to clean if you have
    a snug-fitting swimsuit ;)
    
       /Jim
    

    I tried Micron CSC for the first time last year and was well pleased
    with the result. No weed or barnacles only slime that hosed off far
    better than the Micron Cruising Colpolymer I had been using. Micron
    have a good chemical stripper but a more environmental friendly way is
    pressure hose all the loose stuff then a combination of hand scraper
    and very course wet & dry.
    
    
    Pete

I have not had good luck with Micron CSC.  I was in Boston Harbor and the 
second year I went back to Interlux Bottom Kote which worked better.

I never dry sand.  I will scrape anything that is loose off and then sand with
200 wet sand paper that is wet.  I have gone for several years without much
pealing from the hull in chunks since less is removed during wet sanding.

When I paint I will have one lead with a standard brush and follow with a foam
brush.  Usually go through two or three foam brushes.

    We used Micron CSC for the first two years.  We had mega problems with
    it.  We event hauled the boat and got someone from International Paints
    in NJ to come up and look at it.  No one was able to explain what
    happend.  The visible problems we had were "crazing" of the paing
    surface.  Painting over these small cracks resulted in the new layer
    blilstering off (just the paint, no gell coat blisters).  The paint
    is relatively soft.  We wet sand down to 400 or 600.  (40' boat).  It
    has fair anti-fowling characteristics, but we dive on the boat every
    2-3 weeks anyway.
    
    Last year we switched to Petit "Super-Slick".  This is a leaching
    paint, so it has to be sanded and repainted every year.  The paint is
    hard, burnishes out very smooth and stays that way.  It has poor
    anti-fowling capabilities - you MUST clean the boat very often (we dive
    for every race).  You must remove all the CSC before applying it.  The
    paint is at least 2-3 seconds per mile faster (particularly down wind
    in light air) than CSC.
    
    To us, this is well worth the effort.

Anti-Fowling ==  those whirligig things people put on their boats to keep the
	         seagulls from fouling their boats.  8^)  Mike.

    I have a question for those of you who know something about Fiberglass
    boats....
    
    I was at the yard this wekend working on my boat (wood) and a couple
    guys were working ona forty footer. To hear them talk I get the
    impression they are tyros, but who knows. Another thing was they they
    were doing bottom work with nothing more than a mask.
    
     However, I saw them SCRAPING the bottom paint completely off with
    scraper. Then sanding.
    
     I know nothing about fiberglass boats, but I was wondering if this was
    the proper way to take off the paint. Are they removing more than the
    paint? I was gonna say something to them, but decided to keep my mouth
    shut because I wasn't sure.
    
    Gregg

>     However, I saw them SCRAPING the bottom paint completely off with
>    scraper. Then sanding.

Hey, whatever works... I've done this in a few places on my boat. It works
well when the paint is flaking, i.e. when there's poor adhesion between
two previous paint layers. My boat has a substantial thickness of old bottom
paint on it, and in some places, flakes come off exposing an old layer of
blue bottom paint. I've scraped the flakes off as best I can, and I'll sand
those areas before putting on the new paint. The nice thing about scraping
off the paint is that it's easy on the environment, assuming that you put
down a tarp to catch the flakes, and dispose of properly. (The dust from
sanding is much harder to control, and quite toxic.)

If I were finnicky (or racing) I'd probably remove ALL the old bottom paint,
through some grueling labor intensive, environmentally disgusting process,
and start over.

>   I get the impression they are tyros

Could be. (What's a tyro??)

--RS

    
    	How is using a tarp less environmentally damaging? Because it's
    moved to someone else's neighborhood? I'd submit that substance
    reduction; sanding/scraping then easy on the paint and thinner, rather
    than using paint as an ersatz fairing compound, is less damaging.
    
    	Whoops this isn't the politically correct, green conference? Must
    be why I couldn't find the Evil Users Of Fossil Fuel note...
    
    	Joking! I'm joking!
    
    	Scott
    

    I scraped (with the assistance of my wife) both saturday and sunday
    last week, probably 5 hours on sat and 6 on sun.  Got a nice case of
    cramps in the shoulder and only about 1/5th of the boat done.   When
    resting from the scraper I sprayed on some "Easy-off" and then rinsed
    with fresh water, the water rinsing off was a nice red colour, however
    it did not appear to make a significant difference to the paint.  I
    might believe though that the paint scraped off a little more easily
    after the oven cleaner.
    
    I may try a fiberglass paint remover this weekend, a power wheel only
    seemed to polish up the paint surface.  
    
    There are only a few weekends left till launch and I will try almost
    any suggestion that comes close to making sense !

    For scraping, the single edge razor blade style of scraper seem to work
    if the bottom paint is agreeable.  But be prepared to change blades and
    even scraper bodies often.  As the paint chips jam into the blade
    holder, the blade loosens making it difficult to maintain a constant
    angle.
    
    If the paint is really stuck on, which is more often the case,
    methylene chloride is the only way to go.  Get a 4" flexible drywall
    knife, a metal garbage can cover, a cheap bristle paint brush, and a
    helper.  Starting at one end of the boat, helper paints a square foot
    of hull with the remover, skips a foot, and paints another square foot. 
    Continue painting alternate squares at the same height all along the
    hull.  Person #2 follows behind scraping the residue off the squares as
    the paint bubbles up.  Painting alternate squares avoids knocking of
    elbows.  Use the garbage can cover to catch the scrapings which can be
    deposted in an old paint can.
    
    It'll be necessary to sand what the remover leaves behind.  But this is
    mostly cosmetic and not nearly as tiring as bulk sanding.  An electric
    palm type sander works well.   Inevitably a the remover leaves a few
    blemishes on the gel coat.  Patch with epoxy putty and sand flush.
    
    It's good idea to invest in some neoprene gloves and a bunny suit when
    doing this.  Face protection isn't a bad idea either.  
    
    One session of this can promote a new appreciation for ablative bottom
    paints despite their shortcomings.
    
    - gene

    So scraping fiberglass bottoms right to the glass itself is accepterd
    practice?
    
    Gregg

    I'll second Gene's remarks in .13. I have had good luck with Interlux
    299 'Pint-off' and a draw scraper. I found it helps to make sure the
    scraper blade is a little bit dull so as to avoid removing an
    onion-skin layer of gelcoat!
    
    For thick and heavy buildup, try making multiple passes over an area:
    paint on remover, bubble, scrape, paint on remover, bubble, scrape
    (repeat until done or your lungs are golden brown).
    
    With the Interlux product, be sure not to leave the remover gel
    directly on the gelcoat without scraping/wiping it off withing about 15
    minutes. Eventually it WILL do ugly things to the gelcoat.
    
    Carl

    Has anyone tried the Petit ACP50 ablative paint? That's what I plan to
    use this season. It is spec'd to have more copper than CSC. The
    instructions on the can are quite fussy. The hull must be perfectly
    dry. You must paint during certain hours between some minimum and
    maximum temperature when there is no chance of dew. Each coat must dry
    for some six or eight hours before re-coating. It does say that you can
    paint right over epoxy type paints such as Micron FG Bottomkote. Any
    way that you do it sounds like a multi day job.
    
    -John

    
    Not  to disappoint you, but CSC has more  copper than you need
    unless your in florida. sounds like a lotta unnecessary work
    
    with CSC you touch and  go..
    
    is  there  something  special about  this bottom  paint.,.
    
    JIm
    

    re -.1
    
    >>>with CSC you touch and  go..
    
    If you re-read this note and it's replies, I don't think you will find
    anyone who would characterize bottom prep and painting as "touch and
    go". I was just trying to get a response from someone who may have had
    first hand experience with this paint (although it is new this season).
    Thanks for the useless reply though. (Whoops! Thought I was in the
    SOAPBOX Notes file for a minute.)
    
    -John

    your right, after 22 yrs. of senseless effort, scraping, sanding, 
    and wearing a lot of the bottom paint, i got a little smarter.
    I switched  to  CSC and now only touch up  whats needed.
    But for some people it has to be a laborious task, or they're not
    satisfied.
    
    Certainly, your welcome for the useless reply.
    
    Enjoy painting your bottom...
    
    JIm.

I agree with Jim. This will be our third season with Interlux CSC on our boat. 
The first year we put on two + coats of grey. Last year we switched to blue. 
Interlux recommends the 2 coats of one color and 1 coat of a second color the 
first time you use the paint but the owner of Marine Speculator talked me out 
of it. Last year I used one quart on a 22 footer. The only prep work was to 
thourghly scrub the bottom that I had hosed off the previous fall. I also 
touched up the grey color from the previous year to repair trailer/ bottom rubs. 

This year will be even easier, I did a fairly thorough scrub last fall. I have 
a couple of nicks in the keel to patch and pre-coat, and a couple of places 
where the blue has worn or been rubbed off to expose the grey. 

The boat spent all but 3 weeks of last season in the shadow of the Salem 
Boston Edison Power Plant. We get a lot ot soot and the water is warmed 
by the power plant out flow, but I have done NO scraping, NO sanding (except
for surface patch work) and only moderate scrubbing. I use a peice of 
Scotch Brite and it cleans right up.

I am sold.

Fred

    I have used Super KL990 for the past 3 years with outstanding results
    similar to .-1.  I use a course sanding pad and just go over the bottom
    lightly.  I hardly need a face mask (although I do use one).  And then
    give the bottom one coat.  For my 29 footer it is 1 1/2 quarts.  Comes
    out like glass and works like a charm.
    
    My yacht club is on the Braintree river and we usually get a lot of
    growth on the bottom.  I haven't had growth since changing to KL990. 
    Not even grass at the water line! It is a very soft paint with a lot 
    of copper (over 70%), but it's easy and it works!
    
    Jeff 

    re .16 I applied the Petit ACP50 last week. It was going over Micron
    Fiberglass Bottomkote, so I did a good sanding prep and cleaning with
    solvent before the application. The paint went on much easier than the
    Fiberglass Bottomkote used to. It took just under 1 gallon for two full
    coats. I followed the directions and let the first coat dry overnight.
    The next test is to see how well it works and how long it wears.
    
    -John

    I'll add my results now that the bottom is re-done.
    
    It took probably 100 hours of people time to clean the bottom to the
    bare gelcoat.  The most effective chemical was "Easy-off" which I spent
    at least $ 25.00 on (approx $3.00 each).  International Pintoff 299 was
    useless at the temperatures that we had (-1 to 5 degrees C).
    
    As one of my neighbours said there's no easy way.  We found that by
    spraying the hull with water in the evenings that the next day the
    paint (must have been at least 8 coats) came off easier, the
    distribution of work was half the boat in 70 hours, half the boat in
    30 based on improvements in technique.
    
    I then re-painted with a system from "DEVRON" with an epoxy primer and
    an ablative anti-foul that has to be applied while the primer is still
    tacky.  I'll just go with one coat as the temp was so low that the
    paint was going on real thick.
    
    Based on the information on this system, I don't have to worry about
    scraping the hul again for 4-5 years minimum.  I hope !

    
        Last season, my crew and I took 11 coats of cheap bottom paint off
    my Pearson 26 (had trouble carrying the drop cloths because of the 
    weight). We used both interlux and Petit bottom paint strippers (clear
    edge to Petit, is just about smokes when you apply it.
    
    It took two passes. This was followed by sanding the bottom with a palm
    sander till she was like new.
    
        Over the course of 2 weekends we then applied zinc chromate to to
    the keel before 2 coats (1 gal) of Petit ACP 50 (grey). It was doing
    well all season, but come early Nov when we pulled it, it was covered
    with barnicles. The paint was intact until they went to power wash it.
    It took almost 50 minutes to clean her down (most boats were taking
    about 20mins). The preasure needed caused the ablative to flake a bit
    in some places where he had to really "lean" on it to remove the
    critters. 
    
       The yard foreman asked if I had used a cheap bottom paint. Yeah,
    about $140 a gallon. I went and called Petit, as I was none too happy
    with the performance of the ACP-50. Steve Miller, the regional rep came
    down, took some pictures and said "yup, it looks like our problem and
    not application". He said it sometimes happens from batch to batch. I 
    asked if being 200 yds from the Salem power plant could be a major
    reason, but he said it shouldn't be as they sell the paint in Fla with
    no problems. He thanked me for calling them and giving them a chance to
    correct the problem.
    
        Anyways, Petit sent me a quart of ACP thinner and a gallon of
    ACP-60. This is going to be the "new&improved" version one of these
    days. the label says it's for professional use only, and I have yet to see
    it in a store. I changed the color from grey to black as he said the 
    darker colors seem to work better. 
    
    
       May have been the minor amount of use from September to Nov as I was
    traveling all over the world during the fall.   Let you know at the end 
    of this season how it works out. As for Petit, I am willing to give a
    second chance to a company that makes the effort (Already bought the
    1 part polyurthane for the insides). The ACP-60 can be applied directly
    over the old acp-50. the only real difference is (you guessed it), 60%
    copper than 50%.
    
      john

    John,
    
    I have ACP-50 on the bottom of elysium, and while our moorings aren't
    quite close enough to pass the grey poupin from cockpit to cockpit,
    I'd say we're sort of close.
    
    Last spring I applied three coats of ACP50.  Bought two gallons of the
    stuff, one grey, one green.  First coat, grey.  Second coat green. 
    Third coat a mix of the two.  I had no barnacles on any painted
    surfaces, but plenty on the prop shaft and blades of the prop.  I had
    plenty of slime around the water line, but the warm water seems to
    promote that.  Even back in the good ole days (bad ole days?) of TBT
    paint, I had problems with slime if I didn't scrub the bottom
    frequently.  
    
    We sailed most every week at least one evening, nearly every weekend we were
    gone at least a day and a night, and took our two week vacation to Maine 
    and Newport.  I'm still looking at the light grey/green mix on the hull.  I
    had minimal adhesion problems, likely caused where I didn't get 100% of
    the old semi-hard bottom paint off last spring, and on the bottom of
    the keel where I always lose the bottom paint, regardless of using zinc
    chromate primer.  
    
    I pulled about 5 weeks earlier than you, so there may be something to
    that part of your theory.   I'd think that maybe the Pettit rep had the
    idea about batches correct as far as the barnacles go, at least.
    
    Pettit ACP 50 worked for me in Salem, and even scrubbing it with the
    dri-diver a couple of times during the season didn't cause too much
    wear.   
    
    
    djc

    
    	Same here on the South Shore. There's no more tin to slow down the
    grass growth, but that's about all I got. She got scrubbed at least
    once a week, twice if it was warm enough. I never got thru the 2 coats
    I put on. There was, however, some black stuff. May have been tar, the
    way it was so tough to remove...
    but, I'm happy, and will have to look for the -60!
    
    Scott

    Is anybody using VC17 in saltwater? What are the results ?
    
    I consider, to redo my bottom this summer. I used for many years VC17
    on my tender and it always worked great. Now, I would like to use
    it also on the boat. The salesperson insisted, that I use VC offshore
    extra. But I have no experience with it. 
    I expect from VC17, that it will not protect my boat from growth.
    But, I can clean it with my scuba equipment and it is very easy
    to paint/roll on.
    I have used the last few seasons Micron CSC. It has to be cleaned also,
    flakes on some places and is a pain during painting. The exposed areas
    (waterline, bow, ruder) wear off quite fast. Not so with VC17.
    
    Regards, Peter

I've used the VC17 Offshore on my keel and it has worked fine. My Keel 
is a 525 lb. dagger board. I pulled it out for fairing and patching two 
years ago. When I finished it I had a bare board so I painted it with 
VC17 Offshore. Most of the time the boat is on the mooring I leav the 
keel winched up, but there is still a foot of board in the water. Last 
year at haul out, two full seasons in water that gets up into the 70 + 
Degrres F range, My board was very clean and I wiped it down with a sponge. 
If doing the whole bottom of the boat didn't mean removing all the paint that's
on there I would do the whole bottom of my boat in that. If I buy a new boat, 
or a used one that needs the bottom completly redoone, I would use VC17 
Offshore to paint the bottom. I have no experience with the non-antifoulant
VC17, but I am very happy with the results of the Offshore product.

Geoff

    RE .24
    
        Its been 2 seasons, and I am very satisfied with the ACP-60. I used
    half a gallon last year to coat the ACP-50. This season, I used only a
    quart. At the end of the season, it was a 10 minute job to clean the
    boat's bottom.
    
        I go around the boat in my dingy every 3-4 weeks to give a light
    scrubbing with the deck brush (when rac'n, every bit helps). Even where
    I couldn't get a swipe or two, there were no barnicles, but a bit of
    green grass growth. The only wear was the trailing edge of the rudder.
    
        If I wasn't stripping the boat, I would have used that last quart
    this coming season. That would be 4 seasons from 2 gallons of paint. At
    that point, the higher price for ablatives clearly is right back in 
    the ballpark of value for the money. And not having to sand the bottom
    each spring just prior to launch is a bonus.