Conference unifix::sailing

A Sonar.   (Searching previous notes should turn up a couple earlier
commentaries.)  Faster than a J24, and much easier to sail.  11' cockpit 
with cuddy.  Probably $7-12K used in today's market.

But something for only $5K?  Hmmmm....

J.

    Cape Dory Typhoon -18' 6", Alberg design, full keel, came in 
    daysailer and weekender versions. 
    
    Pearson Ensign -daysailor from the late 60's and 70's.
    
    Rhodes 19 -came in fin keel and centerboard versions.

    
    	As long as you're mooring it anyway, don't limit your size. We went
    out shopping for a 24-26 footer, ended up with a 32! Not that we won
    the lottery, just that buying power is amazing these days.
    
    	Sounds like dryness is important- you want as long a season as
    possible, right? And as far as singlehanding, there are those OSTAR
    types in 80+ footers- singlehanding is dependant on how the boat is set
    up. I delivered an Ericson 39 with most controls led aft, roller
    reefing and a reliable diesel. No problem.
    
    	So see how much pain your checkbook will stand... and go to town!
    
    	Scott

    Add Sea Sprite and Corinthian to the list.  Both small full keeled
    daysailors which, with adequate sail up, are more lively than they
    look.  Used ones should be in your price range.  Or try a bullseye.  A
    bit smaller than the others but a big cockpit for a 16 ft. boat.
    
    The Soling is easy to single hand because of the self tacking non
    overlapping jib.  But because of its lack of seats, it's not conducive
    to gentlemanly daysailing.  And a motor is somewhat difficult to fit. 
    It does, however, go fast.
    
    - gene

    You can find older J-22s in 'fair' condition for 5-6k without a trailer
    (I saw some).  Watch out for bulkhead damage in older J's as the result
    of water leaking through the chain plates.
    
    The J-22 is a big dinghy with a huge cockpit and a bigger 'cuddy' (I
    hesitate to use cabin) than a sonar.  Watch out for the boom.

>>>  Or try a bullseye.  

Nice little boats, but the Northaven 12's will easily keep up, and maybe 
pass you.  

Longer length will make any bay crossings much more comfortable, as well 
as much faster, if the seas kick up as they can there.

Another suggestion, of which I can only remember half the name: 23' 
__________ Bluejacket.  (Canadian company in the 60's, known for good 
quality, went out of business or sold out in the early 70's, I recall... 
someone in this conference will remember it.  Pearson???)  Very nice
narrow fast boat with conservative rig and long comfy cockpit.  Visually
distinctive due to it's well-proportioned reverse transom, one of the
first on a small boat. Quite popular still even though out of production
for >20 yrs. 

J.

    
    
    	Sounds like a Paceship. Fine construction, chunky enough to
    actually do a meal and relax below. Try to get the fixed keel unless
    gunkholing is demanded. There are quite a few around Boston; prices I'm
    not sure about, tho definitely << 10K due to age.
    
    	Cape Dory 28 ?!?!?!?! Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...

	I noticed a Flying Scot (19') in the want advert for $2500.00 the other
day.  It is a centerboard day-sailor, trailorable, easy to handle and a good 
small family as well as fast enough to be fun....but it depends on what you need
to factor in...

    
    I presently sail in PEN bay on a 17' centerboard boat. Given the
    dynamics of the fast centerboard boats you may want to stick to a
    keel boat and avoid dunks in the cold water.
    
    There have been a number of good alternatives already listed that
    have fixed keels. If your looking for speed and are willing to
    sacrifice a little secondary stability, a fin keel daysailor would
    be a good option. Finding a boat in good condition at or less than
    5k. will be the challenge.
    
    The first boat that comes to mind is a RHODES-19 (I have owned one).
    It is 19' long with a fin keel/attached bulb and is both stable and
    fast. The RHODES-19 has been build since the 60's and there are a
    lot of them available in your price range.
    
    Other boats to consider are J22, SONAR, and SOLING. In general, these
    boats are in shorter supply and more expensive than your price range
    offers. If you do find one of these on your price range inspect it's
    condition very carefully. J22s and Solings are generally considered
    course racing boats and may be very demanding if you singlehand or
    sail with an inexpeienced crew. The J22 planes downwind in heavy air
    and I would only consider it if you were sailing with a very
    experienced crew.
    
    Paul
    
    

RE: .7,

Yes!  Paceship was the builder.  Good rep, as long as they lasted.  
(Thanks for the mind jog.)

RE:  Flying Scot, Rhodes 19 & other centerboarders, 

Given your stated desires, I'd keep the focus on keelboats.  Particularly 
those with any deadrise at all, as they'll likely be more comfortable.  
Biggest shortcoming of the Rhodes 19 keel version is that it's simply the 
old centerboard design with a rather light keel bolted on.  Nice boat, but 
some of the others mentioned might be more satisfying to sail over the 
long haul (and through slop.)

J.

    Here's some info I took from Sailing World (Dec. 1990) on three
    possibilities.  I've listed contacts, although you probably would
    prefer looking around for used boats, given your cost restrictions.
    
    			IMPULSE 21
    			==========
    
    LOA		21.0'
    LWL 	18.0'
    Beam	 8.0'
    Draft	 3'5"
    Displ	1,300 lb.
    Ballast	  600 lb.
    Sail Area     208 sq. ft.
    
    Features:	Fixed keel
    		Fractional rig
    		Planing hull, foam core construction
    		Self-tacking jib
    		Spinnaker launcher
    		Center control console
    		Deck-stepped mast
    		Outboard bracket
    
    Contact:	Impulse Marine
    		10610 Metric Drive, Suite 145
    		Dallas, TX 75243
    		(214)340-3111
    
    
    			YNGLING
    			======
    
    LOA		20'9"
    LWL 	15'5"
    Beam	 5'6"
    Draft	 3'6"
    Displ	1,320 lb.
    Sail Area    150 sq. ft.
    
    Features:	Fixed keel
    		Fractional rig
    		Spinnaker 
    		similar to Soling, but smaller (same designer)
    
    Contact:	North American Yngling Assoc.
    		40 Hall Ave.
    		Somerville, MA 02144
    		Attn: Bruce Chaffee
    		(617)666-1455
    
    
    			SONAR
    			=====
    
    LOA		23.0'
    LWL 	18'9"
    Beam	 7'10"
    Draft	 3'11"
    Displ	2,100 lb.
    Ballast	  900 lb.
    Sail Area    253 sq. ft.
    
    Features:	Fixed keel
    		Fractional rig
    		Self-bailing cockpit
    		Lockable cuddy, sleeps two
    
    Contact:	Ross Marine, Inc.
    		47 Pasture Lane
    		Darien, CT 06820
    		(203)655-4548
    

>>>    			IMPULSE 21

A good idea which landed in a market not interested enough; apparently too 
many boats already out there in fleet numbers which were perceived as 
being similar enough.  Another drawback is that is has rail seating only, 
which could be less than dry or relaxing on a long beat to windward into
seas.  Open transom, sheeting pedestal smack in the middle of everything.  
They first came out with the Impulse 26, which was a real rocketship, but 
pricey and one that never established any fleets outside of Texas.

>>>    			YNGLING

Late 60's or early 70's design.  Not too many of these around, but they
look like miniature Solings.  Good quality, Swedish design and
construction.  Used prices may be in your range; some inside seating, I
recall, but it's not a large cockpit boat (you feel rather exposed.)
    
>>>    			SONAR

Many comments already.  Inside seating, and sail controls are largely out 
of the way of passengers, something many others don't provide.  These will 
average somewhat above your range, but an older one (perfectly good but
non-competitive in a hot fleet) in this market probably would be in or 
near your range.  (Yes, I *really* like Sonars, and if I was in the market 
for a 18'-26' performance daysailer, this would unquestionably be it.  
Dave Franzell of the Boston Sailing Center would most likely be glad to 
take you for a sail; he's consistently one of the Sonar national champions.  
He's also a dealer, and may have some used listings.)

--->                    X-21

I just recalled this one.  A nice little boat, with surprising 
performance, it looks and performs like a little Scheel 30 sloop.  Not big 
in numbers, relatively high in owner loyalty, and likely quite a bit higher 
in used value than your range.

J.

    Everyone,
    
    Thanks for all the ideas and advice. I appreciate your interest.
    
    There are a couple of older Solings going begging in the Want Ad for 
    $4000/bo including trailers. I guess I will have a look at these.
    Someone said they have no seats. Does this mean that you sit or kneel
    on the floor of the cockpit? Is there room for fitting bench seats--
    I am not concerned with maintaining purity of design concept.
    
    The Sonar sounds like it's more in line with what I want so I will look 
    into that as well. Eastern Yacht Sales has an '81 Sonar listed for $9500. 
    This boat is on the premises so they probably took the boat in trade--ie
    the price is likely not to be as flexible as with a consignment boat.
    I do think that spending this much for a few afternoons of sailing per
    year is difficult to justify. If I lived in Marblehead and had the boat
    right there to sail after work or whenever, it would be a different
    story.
    
    Re: Bullseyes. These are a fiberglass version of the Herreshoff 12-1/2
    or Boy's Boat. I have sailed both and much prefer the wooden originals
    or the wooden copies made in Maine. I thought I would avoid the upkeep
    of a wood boat and appreciate the greater speed and seaworthiness of
    a bigger boat. Now if I could find a decent Herreshoff S boat...
    
    Rolf
    

    Rolf,
    
    I have an S-boat - first hull of the class ever built........
    
    
     But it ain't fer sale!!!!!!!
    
    I love it.
    
     There were 2 other S-boats in Marblehead last year. One sold this
    year, and I haven't seen nor heard about the other (Sturdy Beggar).
    
    Gregg
    Gregg

    Re .13
    
    It would be hard to fit bench seats to a Soling.  The cockpit is small
    and getting the seats in would require sawing away part of the side
    deck.  But it's the width of the side deck that keeps the water out
    when the boat heels.  Enlarging the cockpit to accomodate seats would
    make it easier to swamp the boat.  While this can be an inconvenience
    itn the newer hulls that have flotation tanks, it could be more of a
    problem in older hulls that are completly open inside.
    
    The usual practice in a Soling is to sit on the side decks.  They're
    not that uncomfortable but there is no back support.  But when any boat
    heels seats really aren't where you instinctively want to sit anyway. 
    Most people just use them as steps to get to the high side.  While it
    looks precarious up there, once you're there, it feels more secure
    than any other place.
    
    - gene  

    The other thing worth mentioning about the Soling is that it is a boat
    that is comfortable in stronger winds - and rather "slow" in the lower
    wind brackets (1-2).
    
    Paul