Conference unifix::sailing

	If you want to hear from the other side (power boats) I'll throw 
in my two cents. I think there are many reasons for "the masses" to prefer
powerboating. I'll pick a few and elaborate on them.
	Power boats appeal to more diverse interests. Even though sailing 
has some diversity such as cruising, racing etc., the power boating list 
is much longer. There are a lot of water skiers and fishermen, as well
as cruisers and racers in the power boat ranks and these are very popular 
activities. 
	Convenience is another major reason for power boating popularity.
I feel most people want to get in and go vs going through all the preparation
and post cruise activity required for a sailboat.
	The next item is related to convenience; its the level of difficulty 
in learning to sail vs operating a power boat. The committment required in 
this regard will eliminate a lot of folks who either don't have the time or 
desire to acquire the skills necessary to sail.
	In the area of yatchmen(women) converting to trawlers, it may have 
to do with our aging population. I read an article recently of such a 
conversion. The subject was retired and converted to a trawler because it
took less physical activity to pilot it. It also afforded more protection 
from the elements; the subject had developed a susceptibility to sun 
poisoning because of his years of sailing relatively open boats. 
	There are more but I'm sure others will join in. BTW I hope this 
doesn't turn into a stinkpotter vs blow boater note. I prefer power boating
but I understand the appeal of sailing; its just not for me. Its rather 
difficult to get offshore, fish all day and get back home for dinner in a 
sailboat.) Perhaps if I were wealthy and retired I'd have both. :^)
Regards,
Paul

    I wasn't aware of this phenomenon.  I personally see myself in a
    trawler at some point later in life (rafted up to a sleek fifty with
    NOTHING down below).
    
    Seriously, sailing itself isn't dwindling.  It may have approached a
    saturation point where there just isn't the need for so many new boats
    to be produced each year.  The economy has a lot to do with it as well.
    I don't know of anybody who has turned away from sailing and gone to
    ,er, power boating as a primary activity.  If you have any statistics
    that point otherwise, I'd like to hear.
    
    I love to fish, ski etc and have no dislike for power boating.  The
    trawler approach is popular with ex sailors because they are so
    seaworthy and not floating condos.
    
    Dave

Excellant article in the Wall Street Journal about 2-3 weeks ago on the
demise of sailboat sales. They attributed it to several items:

1. No such thing as a fibreglas slug. The original manufacturers (they
intervued Mr Pierson) never believed the suckers would last 30+ years.
People can't see why they should buy new when the used market is so
glutted.

2. No place to put them. The marinas are full, and without power, it
takes to long to get down a river to the open water. Most power boats are
small enough to leave in one's yard, so the total cost of ownership is
lowered.

3. Boring designs. Nothing has changed in 30 years. Compare that to power
boats. In that time we have had ski boats, bass boats, pontoon boats... . 
To the average joe, sailboats are pointy at one end, round at the other,
have a tall mast, and a deep keel. Nothing revolutionary, nothing exciting.

4. It is a complex sport to learn, yet we do very little to start the
youngsters along like some recreational groups do. 

Personnaly, I like #2 along with the fact gasoline has been cheap. I can
still remember back in 83 when sailboats cost a premium and you couldn't
give powerboats away. If things stay like they are, we will probably see the
same thing happen again.

john

    It seems like we just have less time , 30 second grabs on
    everything.  I personally like sailing and don't mind spending 3-4 hours
    to get to some place to anchor, eat ,fish, swim etc.  My wife however is
    asleep by the 4th tack and the kids are wondering if they will ever be
    able to learn water-skiiing.
    
    And the way back is worse, ghosting in the dark at half a knot is not
    what this society is all about.

Interesting note and oberservations.  The reasons .1-.4 mention all seem 
plausible and part of the reason for a soft market.  In my mind, there are
still some good reasons for sailing over powerboating, including:

1)  With the proper design and outfitting, there's no limit on how far you 
can go.  Most powerboats capable of crossing an ocean are more than 125'
and $6M.  Even many $100-200K powerboats can't make it to Bermuda on a 
fill-up.  BTW, one powerboater I've heard of cancelled plans to cruise 
Nova Scotia due to the unavailability of recreational boat fuel there (a
tax situation, not lack of existence.) 

2)  The cost of operation, mostly fuel, is a considerable expense.  
Maintenance on a pair of large diesels and the attendant support equipment 
is more, too.  Wear and tear on cruising sails certainly is a lot less.
Stories of $200 fuel for a weekend's trip holds my enthusiasm in check,
even if that expense gets you maybe 150 miles away and back. 

3)  Sailing is an exercise of specialized skills, and as such offers some 
special intrinsic rewards and satisfaction to those who understand and 
practice them artfully.

4)  All but the biggest and best-built powerboats do vibrate and make
more than minor noise underway.  Hours of nearly-silent propulsion are
wonderful.  And now that I've begun to focus more on multihulls, the speed
differential isn't as much of a negative.  Doing 15 kts with only solar
power (using the wind as the medium) is a special delight. 

5)  Many--certainly not all--sailboats have more pleasant aesthetics, a
"softer" beauty for lack of a better term.  Some impress by size, power 
and speed; others do so by exhibiting exceptional taste.  It's a different 
feeling, not better, but just different.  Some folks like it more.

That said, 1/3 of my license time was aboard powerboats, and I certainly
have my latent lust for a sweepingly sheered express cruiser (how 'bout
that new Chuck Paine-designed Able 40, huh?)  For now, I can't justify
burning that much fossil fuel for strictly my own indulgence, but then I'm
a Greenie at heart.  Given more fuel (whatever the cost within reason) and
a more resilient environment, I'd likely be out on powerboats as much as
sailboats.  They're both fun.

J.

    
    The previous replies all raised good points that I can agree with, but
    I think that they also missed one obvious point.
    
    Americans are intoxicated with power... not power wielded by nature
    that you must struggle against, but power wielded by people to dominate
    other people or things.
    
    Activities which lack the ingredient of 'power' can make do with sex or
    money, which also fascinate most people, but appreciation of beauty,
    efficiency, aerodynamics, attentiveness, etc appear far down the lists
    of interests of many people.
    
    Would people care about football if it were a non-contact sport?  How
    about basketball?  Why do people like car racing?  Why is there more
    interest in hardball than softball?  Golf is almost a counter-example,
    but would it be as interesting if every hole was a par-3?
    
    Here are some sailing-oriented sports that might become popular:  ;)
    
    	o  Figure-8 sailboat racing.
    
        o  Waterfall jumping
    
        o  Board & Pillage racing
    
        o  Sailing without winches or cleats... the crew has to secure 
    	   all the lines with physical strength
    
        o  Sailboard-rugby
    
        o  3-D sailing:  Sailboards with large horizontal wings which
           permit flight.  Contestants fly around like the monkeys in
           the Wizard of Oz and try to knock each other out of the sky.
    
    :)
    
    

re .6 

>    	o  Figure-8 sailboat racing.

Europe already has figure-8 sailboat racing! DN Europe uses figure-8 courses;
but the courses are considered too dangerous for U.S. use. The U.S. based
IDNYRA rules specify that courses will be windward-leeward, marks to port but
DN Europe changes the rule.

- Bob

    On Sunday, while recovering (in a small way) from our Sailing Club's
    annual dinner and dance, 5 of us had the chance to take a Rival 34
    about 25 miles up the coast so that the boat could be hauled out.
    
    The rest of us all took our boates out a month ago but Duncan was away
    on the Grand Banks at the time and decided to do things a little
    differently.
    
    This was the latest in the season that I had ever sailed and it was
    really great.  We had 40 knots of wind and 2-3 degrees celsius. 
    Needless to say there were lots of sweaters/cruiser suits etc.
    We had the wind on the stern for the first 5 miles or so but then we
    came around the corner and the wind was more over the side.  With 2
    reefs in the main and a working jib up the boats just smoother along at 
    6.75 - 7.5 Kts.  The wind was a lot fuller than even the same wind
    would give you in October.
    
    Up here we only get ice in March/April (maybe May) but the bubbler
    systems seem to keep it at bay if you are in the right locations. 
    Unfortunately my usual mooring gets covered with pack ice so its no
    good.  But with a Steel boat, I think I will investigate the
    possibility of keeping my boat in for the winter just to take advantage 
    of some of the "good stuff".  Certainly would beat spending months
    looking at the May edition of the Florida Sailboat Trader as I have
    been doing for the last few nights.
    
    Anyone out there had a boat in the water (in nothern climes) over the
    winter ?

    We have lived aboard in the Northeast for the past 15 years but I doubt
    that the conditions are as sevear as you have but here is some things
    to think about.
    If the boat is heated through the winter you will find about 1" or so
    of ice free water around te hull due to heat loss. This seems to be
    true nomatter what kind of boat. The snow won't melt off the deck or
    even the hatches but will through the hull at the waterline. This
    allows you to go up and down with the tide and to also abrade some of
    the boottop paint off too.
    The biggest problem is the ice pulling the pilings out by freezing
    around them at low tide then just extracting them from the bottom as
    the tide comes in. We bubble the pilings rather than the boat.
    If the basin you are in has relatively good protection from the wind
    and the wave action you don't have to worry about ice dammage but if
    not floating a piling or automobile tires next to the hull will lessen
    the need to be up chopping ice away from the boat during wind from the
    wrong direction. In the spring you may need to be concerned with flow
    ice moving down river during the thaw. Some sort of floating dam to
    protect the boat might be necessary.
    We have been in ice thick enough to drive a car on, hard enough to ice
    skate on and around long enough for the Coast Guard to send the ice
    breaker so the fishermen could get out.
    

    My cut at it:
    
    1. Sailing takes more time.   With the two-income family the norm,
    leisure time is less even if more money is availble.
    
    2. Learning curve.   It takes time and effort just to learn how to
    sail a boat from the dock/mooring.     A power boat requires very
    little training to do the same.   However there is more to boating
    enjoyment and safety than just clearing the harbor and judging from
    some of the stuff we observe afloat many boaters need to work on
    the "finer points".
    
    3. Sailing has an image that tends to put the average person off when
    they take a first look.  (yacht clubs, lack of reasonable
    instruction,etc).     Yet if you take all sailing; sailboards, small
    boats it is just as attainable as other forms of recreation.
    
    4. Sort of a flip-side of #2, SPEED is what most folks are into
    today(how fast does it go, how fast can I get there, how fast can I
    make x amount of money, etc).      Like it or not, the 30 second time
    bite and MTV TV are the reality for most folks.      One has to get 
    the mindset of "we all will be dead one day, so lets smell some of
    the roses on the way" to start to enjoy "slower pursuits".
    
    5. Price of boats.   New sailboats are not cheap and though there are
    many used ones, it is difficult to sort through the used market for
    what you need.      I did notice a new brokerage in Marblehead Mass.
    opening just to handle used boat sales.      If they added a rehab
    and rebuild service to tailor a used boat to the owners needs that
    would help.
    
    I enjoy being on the water, power or sail.   Sail lets me see it at
    a pace that holds my interest.
    
    Frank

    With great delight........The message come up "HL-A, A=.007"  
    
    This means that the sailing computer is up and memory is accessable.
    A.007 on thge NKE is "English language, temp in F, distance in Feet.  I
    has been three years since power was applied to the system, and the
    keep alive battery expired long ago.
    
    Sending off the brain box for installation of new lithium cell ( and
    upgrades to make that user installable) was not easy.  The box made
    three round trips before it worked.
    
    But seeing the cockpit instruments come alive and getting all the
    status messages on the chartable MFD was like homecoming.  I'm really going
    to get back in the water after all.   Even if it was 4deg F and 18in of
    drifted snow in the cockpit.
    
    Back to the topic: re -1, sail is slow?  Yes, 7knts seems pretty slow
    when motoring out of the marina.  But I've never had anyone complain
    when  beating, with the #3 and the flattener in, into 20knt AWS.  Still
    doing 7knots (well almost), but those folks are usually looking at the
    lee rail with apprehension..  
    
    Always wondered why until I thought about it for a while.  If you are
    not up  on sailboat construction, what insurance do you really have
    that the darn thing is not going to just roll over.  And 18deg of heel
    seems pretty radical to those used to standing up straight.