Conference unifix::sailing

By "registering", do you mean documenting?  Numbering usually is the
physical manifestation of state registration; documentation is a federal
procedure, and requires boat name and hailing port of specific size and
location on the outside of the hull (plus other stuff belowdecks,) but no 
numbers.  Both require periodic renewal.  Either will result in the same 
insurance premium.  Neither will help you avoid taxes.  State registration
permits fancy graphics (such as script lettering) in displaying your boat
name.  Documentation is definitely classy without those numbers on your
bow, but exposes you to potential legal seizure of your vessel by the US
gov't in time of war.  ;-) 

DIR/KEYWORD=LAWS will show quite a few previous discussions on documentation. 
It's a complex issue, without simple answers, so you might find it worth 
the trouble to cover what's already in the system, and then target your
still-unanswered questions to those of us (un)fortunate enough to have 
endured the documentation process.

J.

    I just attended the Power Squadron class last night, and found that
    a new law in Mass. will require all boats purchased after April 14
    will require a Mass. Title if their owners live is Mass.!
    
    Frank
    

    
    	I am in the process of buying a 32' boat. 4 out of 4 marine finance
    companies say that I MUST document her. Sounds like every vessel over
    28' or 4 ton (my loose guess, not fact) must go thru it. I am, however,
    going to read the Notes on it...
    Looks like the going rate, if a service does the legwork is $3-400.
    Whew!
    Scott.
    
    

Even though we were federally documented, we had to register with the state
of Florida.  

We paid about $300 to become federally documented in 1986.  While in Florida
we were coerced into an additional state registration fee of about $50 a year.

I checked with the Coast Guard and they didn't realize that registration for
federally documented boats was a state requirement there.  The Florida Marine 
Patrol (FMP) cruises around marinas and bags the federally documented boats 
(fines and registration fees) for this little known law.

I'm not sure about Mass., but I do see a lot of numbers on weekend cruisers.

The significant issue to the buyer of a moderate sized boat is a boat loan. Above a certain 
size/tonnage (banks can differ some on this)  feet require federal  
documentation. Documentation creates a title for the boat. The title is used by banks to 
create mortgage papers, and make it easier for them 
for foreclose on the boat in federal court and sieze the boat in case of default. 

The bottom line is that for a bank loan for a moderate to large sized boat you have to 
document it.

In my case, the documentation (done by a compnay to which I paid a fee) did 
not come through for a year, during which time I had to register the boat anyway. With the
proposed new Mass. law, this may become moot. It looks like the banks will require 
documentation and the state will require registration. 

Up until now it was an either/or situation.  However, Mass required that if the boat was
moored in Mass, you must pay Mass excise tax.  

Also, on the transom lettering, the Coast guard does allow a certain amount of latitude
with respect to pretty graphics. There are requirements on letter size and location, 
but pretty fonts, or pictures underneath are not prohibited.

    When we bought our cruising boat in late 1988 researched the tax laws
    for the state of Washington and found that we would be liable for sales
    tax (at 8.1%) on the purchase price. Although some boat owners simply
    do not register with the state, there are penalties involved which we
    chose to avoid. Sure enough, in January of this year the state hired
    several extra tax enforcement people to visit all of the marinas in the
    state. They arrived at our marina one day with the county sheriff to
    check for Washington state registration stickers. They boarded a number
    of the boats, recorded hull numbers and vessel names, tracked down the
    owners and begin prosecution.
    
    On a related issue, I have heard that there is reciprocity among states
    with sales tax, where if the tax has been paid in one state, another
    state will credit the owner that amount, should the boat move
    permantly. State registration fees would still be required. Has anyone
    else experienced this?
    
    Howard

    My boat is documented and not registered.  I live in Massachusetts and
    keep the boat in Rhode Island.  Last year I had to PROVE to the Rhode
    Island Department of Revenue that I had paid Massachusetts tax on my
    boat.  No state registration required . . . yet! 

    Our boat was purchased in Maryland, is documented in New Orleans,
    Louisiana, and still the Mass tax people found us incredibly quickly
    and demanded their due.  You can run, but you cannot hide!
    
    Dave

    Yeah you gotta pay but sometimes you can choose to whom!
    
    Bought a boat in Mass in a private sale and subsequently registered it
    in Maine.   Could have paid sales tax in either place (Maine would
    accept proof of payment in Mass).
    
    So I chose not to contribute to the Duke.
    

    Does anyone have the facts on Marlyland rules?
    
    I bought my boat in Virginia and paid the sales tax.  The boat is now
    moored in Marlyand although my residence remains in Virginia.  I
    purchased the boat in 1985.  I have heard nasty tales about Maryland
    seeking the tax with no mind of the previous payment to another state.  
    
    Does anyone have a real life experience to share before I write to
    Maryland to try to get the facts?
    
    Hank

Maryland was until recently the only state on the east coast that didn't
have some sort of reciprocity arrangement for Sales or Use taxes paid to
other states.

A law passed in 1988 changed that.

You will need to show proof of payment to the other state. If the tax rate
percentage was less than MD (5%) you will have to make up the difference.

    I am presently in the process of documenting my 28' sloop which I have
    owned since 1988. Since it is being painted as we speak, I did not wish
    to put those ugly Mass. registration numbers back on the bow. I still
    have a couple more forms to complete. But, the C.G. has issued me
    numbers. My Mass. registration comes due on June 30. How do I proceed?
    Do I just ignore the registration renewal? (not likely in this state)
    What is the process with the state now that it will be documented?
    
    John

I registered a documented boat for a couple of years and then let 
it lapse with no problem from the State. 

My boat is documented in Wilmington, Delaware. The idea behind it 
was to avoid the sales tax but--- that didn't work. I paid the 
tax the next year when it became apparent that Massachusetts 
expected to either collect a sales tax or a "use" tax for sailing 
in Massachusetts' waters.

Several years later, the State started to clamp down on those who 
didn't pay the sales tax by impounding boats whose owners 
couldn't show proof of payment. To make sure I didn't get caught 
up with inspectors (with my proud Wilmington, Delaware sign 
painted on the stern), I spent the extra money to register the 
boat in the State. Note, I didn't go to the trouble of placing 
numbers on the bow of the boat but I kept the registration with 
me on the boat. The boat is no longer registered but I maintain 
the documentation.

Joe

    
    	Remember, if there's a motor on the dinghy, the coasties (Boston
    	anyway) love to grab you! I used to keep a Seagull up under the
    	cuddy in my daysailor for emergency, and, sure enuff, the first
    	time I lost wind & was getting sucked into danger by current and
    	screwed the thing on the back, along came the autorities! So I pay
    	the $30 for the Zodiac.... 
    
    	Insurance or extortion? Who cares, same price.
    
    	Outlaw_Scott_with_*NO*_stickers_on_the_fiberglass.

RE: .12,

I'd send a registered RRR letter to the Mass boat people listed on your 
last registration, telling them that your boat is now documented.  Of 
course you'll still pay user fees and such.  

The biggest pain may be in getting the town/city it's moored in to change
its records -- that may affect mooring permits, taxes based on mooring 
location, any number of other issues.  I'd send a copy of that letter 
(again, R/RRR) to them as well.  At least then you're covered and have 
proof if they screw up.  It's worth $5 postage for that.

J.

    
    When i bought the boat i currently own, i had to pay sales tax
    and register it in Mass. in order to move it. I was told at the
    time of sale, i would not have documentation numbers for awhile.
    
    Just let you reg. expire, your doc. numbers cover you from now
    on...
    
    Don't worry, they'll still send you an excise bill, and yes you'll
    have to put those ugly user fee stickers on as well. Other
    than that you won't have any problems..
    
    JIm.
    

    I just got off the phone with the Comm. of Mass. boat registry. I
    explained that my boat will soon be CG documented. They said just to
    call them back whenever the documentation is completed and they will
    cancel the MS numbers.
    
    That was too easy.
    
    John

    I just received a registration form for my sailboat from
    Massachuesetts.  Does anyone know the current law relative to:
    
    	a) If the boat is documented, does it need to be registered in
    		a State?
    
    	b) If the answer is yes, which State:
    
    		1) Residence
    		2) Place where boat is used in summer?
    
    	c) What if boat is used equally between two States?
    
    Finally, does anyone have experience in registering a boat in Rhode
    Island:
    
    	a) First time charge (I've already paid Mass. Sales Tax);
    	b) Annual Fee
    	c) Ease of registration, etc.
    
    Thanks - I'd appreciate response via E-mail (LMOADM::RAHAIM) since I'm
    doing a lot of traveling and logging in from various noisy hotel phone
    lines is a pain.
    
    Jack

    
    I have read through note 1469.*. and it is still not clear to me if I
    should register my boat with the state or document it with the Fed.
    Also most of the entries in 1469.* are a few years old. I am sure
    things could have changed.
    
    
    I took delivery of a 1975 Pearson 30 sailboat this past weekend. The
    previous owners have (had) the boat documented with the fed. Should I
    continue to document the boat or should I reg. it with the state of MA
    (MS)?
    
    I have to go to pay the sails 8-) tax at the Mass Registry RMV
    (Boat\RV) in Worcester either way. When I am there I can apply for
    title and register the boat for a total of $45. It can be all done in
    one quick step. If I want to document the boat I will need to go
    through the lengthy process and spend more money.
    
    So if the only advantage is that I will not have to put some numbers on
    my hull then I think I will reg. with the state. Any input would be
    greatly appreciated.
    
    Thanks in advance
    Joe Vlcek
    LASSIE::VLCEK
    [email protected]
    

When I bought Holiday II, she was registered, and since Dick was
continueing on, I kept the registration.

I have not checked, but I beleive you have to fill out a form to
remove a boat from registration.

When you transfer owner ship on the documentation, it is fairly
straight forward.  Call the Boston Goast Guard office, since that
is where the paper work flows.

Something to the effect of submit a copy of the bill of sale, along
with the new registration form (which they will send you).  Send
back with something like $120.00.  All done.  You do not need to
get admeasured again or anything like that.

If I were doing coastal cruising and my boat were not documented, I
probably would not bother.  However, someone else has already done
the really tedious part, so I think I would go ahead.  I know I
will when my partner finally loses interest in Holiday II (not
looking forward to that day).

Documentation is as formal as boat ownership gets.  If you went to
Canada, or the Bahamas, this could prove valuable.  If you keep the
boat long enough (~5 years) you will recoup the documentation cost
against yearly registration.  Once documented, you stay that way
:-).

Others are likely to come up with more exact details, but that is
my opinion.

Doug

	When we bought our F-27 documentation was a condition of the
mortgage. We were advised by the finance people not to register the boat
in Massachusetts especially if there was any chance that we might ever
want to sell the boat in the future. The reasoning behind this was that
the documentation is a federal title. The registration in Massachusetts
creates a different, possible conflicting title. When it comes time to
sell there is great confusion and complication with the two conflicting
titles. This was the information we recieved from a business that deals in
numerous boat sales and purchases.
	When we went to Worcester to pay the sales tax we had a reaction
that agreed with the information we recieved from the credit people. I
informed the person that I was paying sales tax on a boat and another
person began collecting the paperwork for registration. I said "this is a
documented Vessel" and she said "Oh, Okay" and put the forms away. It
appeared to me that she was very clear that documented vessels don't get
registered with the state, no questions. 
	I do not know what kind of issue I might run into if we ever tried
to sail on inland lakes, especially in NH, but I don't think a pearson 30
is as inclined to such alternate waters on a whim. Even though we could,
the ocean is where we sail. 

	If it's not too late, I'd recommend against State registration in
your case. 

	Geoff