[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference unifix::sailing

Title:SAILING
Notice:Please read Note 2.* before participating in this conference
Moderator:UNIFIX::BERENS
Created:Wed Jul 01 1992
Last Modified:Mon Jun 02 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2299
Total number of notes:20724

1357.0. "small racers?" by AV8OR::SAMPSON (Driven by the wind) Thu Sep 28 1989 12:21

Hi Folks,
     I want a bigger boat next season. I want to stay trailerable, but 
might get a mooring anyway. I would like to be able to pull my boat out 
of the water without a crane, just the same I want a boat that is going 
to fair well when the wind looks good. I've been sailing a 470 for three
years so I'm kind of hooked on race equipped boats despite the fact that I
have only raced once. I want the tunability of a race rig, but the boat 
has to be something I can handle alone. I think what I want should be 
over 20 feet, but upwards of 25 is going to get too cumbersome to use. 
     I was introduced to a Holder 20. This boat appeared to be what I was 
thinking about when I started, but I began to wonder if it is too light for 
me to hold down without a crew. The boat is not totally out of the picture 
yet, but doesn't look as tempting as before. 
     I've seen J-boats, 22 and 24. Talking to people it sounds like they are
less than comfortable to sail alone. I am constantly told that I would need 
people to sit on the weather rail to make either sail properly. On the other 
hand there are many out there and it appears a good used one could be had
at a reasonable price. On the down side, the advertisement literature I've 
seen suggests that these would be cumbersome to rig single handed and 
launch without a crane. Any one out there with first hand experience?
     I've been turned on and very tempted by a Capri, a race cut line by
Catalina. This has tempted me partly because of the popularity of the 
Catalina line and its positive reputation. It appears to be well built,
reasonably priced, reasonably comfortable below and a race type tunable 
rig. Any comments on or experience with these?
     I also am curious about some names I run across in used listings. 
Ranger 23'; appears to be in my size range. Going on the suspicion that 
Ranger was a fast J-boat from the '30s I expect the product that took that 
name to be a fast design. These boats have age on them, but are out there.
What are they like? Do they have a full keel, fin keel, are they 
trailerable?
     I see Hurleys often with the description "Racer/cruiser". What are 
these boats like, keel type, trailerability? Anyone know?
     I saw a listing last night for an H-boat, talked about being fast.
Anyone know what these are? I'd never heard of them before.
     How about an S-2. I see these listed, I see them in racing scores,
they seem to be a bit high in price. Can anyone comment about these?
     Finally, are there any boat designs along this line that I should keep 
an eye out for, either good or bad? 
     I'd like to try and keep the price not more than 10K. I also have to 
be able to sail whatever boat I get single handed. I don't have a crew and 
can't count on one. I'll be damned if that's going to keep me from sailing.

     Please offer whatever comments you can, I've had an awful time asking 
questions in notes. It's like my questions are too hard. 

     Thanks greatly for any input
     	Geoff

T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
1357.1MOOV01::KEENANPAUL KEENAN DTN 297-7332Thu Sep 28 1989 14:5528
    I can offer some advice about the J/24. The boat is not bad to sail
    alone. The boat needs beef on the rail to sail fast, but I wouldn't
    call it a tender boat. I singlehand the boat in light air with main
    and jib, since you are a dinghy sailor with quick hands this will be
    no problem for you. In heavy air the boat sails VERY well with just
    the main. A few weeks ago I was out in about 16-20 knot winds with
    just the main and my wife and child sitting to leeeward. We blew
    past several heavy 30+ foot cruisers on a beat. I was surprised.
    
    Trailers are available that allow a boat ramp launch. I've never seen
    this done, but with a 4' draft it must be hard. If you're near RI, the
    deal at Ft Adams in Newport is great. You can use the lift for $30 a 
    shot. Or you can join for the year, $200-$300, you get unlimited use
    of the lift and a place to keep your boat on land.
    
    The best thing about a J/24 is the strong class racing with excellent
    competition. The boat is fast, light, and very manueverable. It sails,
    planes, and surfs like a big dinghy. 
    
    On the down side, it is not a good sea-keeping boat. They used to race
    them off shore in England. They banned this when they found the boats 
    would submarine after surfing down big waves and never come up. With 
    nearly 9' of deck beam, I doubt it would right from a capsize. Also
    the boom is very dangerous. It angles down and as it runs aft and will
    club your head and neck if given half a chance.
    
    -Paul

1357.2STEREO::HOThu Sep 28 1989 14:5773
    You may have any two of the following:
    
    1.  Trailer launching
    2.  LOA > 20 ft.
    3.  Singlehanding
    
    With larger boats trailer launching becomes inconvenient.  Particularly
    if done in salt water because of the short time window allowed by
    the tides.  Displacement sailboats (most > 20 ft are), even those
    with retractable keels, draw more than power boats of comparable
    size.  On a good weekend there can be quite a race to get to the
    ramp before the tide goes out.  The sailboat at the end of the line
    may have to wait another 6 hours before pulling out.  
    
    If you've been spoiled by a 470, then the usual trailer sailers
    such as Compacs, Daysailors, Catalina 22's, Macgregors, etc will
    probably not be of interest.  At least not in their stock form.
    It is possible to add all the sail control go fasts to these boats
    to give your hands some extra lines to pull but that won't change
    their inherent handling characteristics.  
    
    High performance = lots of sail which must be offset by lots of
    lead if the boat is to be sailed shorthanded.  Either that or lots
    of bodies.  J-22's and 24's require the lots of bodies if they're
    to be sailed with both sails up in a blow.  They single hand adequately
    in a breeze with just the main up.  They'll handle better than some
    other boats on a main only but pointing and speed will be dramatically
    off.  They are not ramp launchable without seriously jeopardizing
    the towing vehicle.  The J-24 also needs a crane (or many bodies)
    to step the mast.  The J-22's mast is deck stepped and can be put
    up two persons.
    
    The Capri 25 and Ranger 23 are respectively, newer and older versions
    of the J-24.  Both have fin keels and must be crane launched.  The
    Ranger 23 has a narrow high aspect main and will not sail well with
    only that sail.  But there is a bit more room inside.  I believe
    both are long  out of production.
    
    They are several incarnations of H-boat.  The most recent is a
    Scandanavian import made by Artekno.  I looked at them a few years
    back.  Pretty much a Soling with some accomodation.  Fractional
    rig with small jib and deep keel.  Seems fun and singlehandleable
    but must be crane launched. 
    
    S2 has a 20+ footer (6.7?) that has a drop keel and some active
    racing in the midwest.  It may be ramp launchable.  But to get the
    full potential out of it, you'll want to bring a few freinds to
    sit on the rail and handle sails.  More room inside than a J-24
    but the decor looks like a clorox bottle.
    
    Bruce Kirbly tried to address the high performance single handed
    market a while back with a 21 footer called the Fox.  Only one sail
    and a large keel to keep it upright.  Unfortunately, few were sold
    and production ceased after short time.  But there may be a few
    around.  There also may be a few Freedom 21's for sale on the used
    market.  This is another cat boat with a keel.
    
    The cheapest way to go if you're willing to get a mooring is to
    get an old Soling.  These have a self tacking jib, a heavy keel
    for stability, and all the strings lead to the cockpit.  Very easy
    to single hand even with a chute.  Plus there's room to bring a
    friend or two.  It's as close as you'll get to a 470 in a larger
    boat.
    
    If ramp launching is a must, look around for a flush deck Evelyn
    26 with a dagger board keel.  This is an IOR maxi shrunk to 26 feet.
    Running backstays, inboard-outboard adjustable jib tracks, and other
    indescribably complex gadgets.  Just the boat for the compulsive
    string puller.  
    
    - gene

1357.3J24's can stay capsized.FIONN::COFFEYFri Sep 29 1989 05:329
    Re .1
    
    J24's do not necessarily right from a capsize, I have seen one with
    three people out on the keel trying to right it. They succeeded
    eventually but it took a while. There is at least one on the Atlantic
    floor off the south coast of Ireland that submarined while running.
    
    Aedan

1357.4Thanks! This is getting tough.AV8OR::SAMPSONDriven by the windFri Sep 29 1989 09:5516
     Thanks for the input everyone. I didn't know about J-boats turning 
in to U-boats. Not that that has put them out of the picture but certainly 
an important thing to know. I've capsized my 470 more than once, last 
weekend even. I don't plan to capsize this larger boat, but I have a 
tendency to push a boat just a little over the edge, especially before I 
know where that edge is.
    	The Js still appear to be really nice boat, but thoroughly
    un-manageable at a ramp. I really do want transportability and ramps
    cost less and are more common than a crane. This is a very interesting
    delema but I'm sure I'll find a soloution or compromise, I'll probably 
    get a mooring. 

     Thanks for the input,
     Keep it coming
     Geoff

1357.5Sail a J22 & Ranger 23!MEMORY::LAZGINFri Sep 29 1989 10:2813
    You can get some first hand sailing expeience on a J22 and the Ranger
    23 by joining the Navy Yard Sailing Club, for the month of October.
    The monthly fee is only about $55!  
    
    I sailed there all summer and raced on the J22's.  The general opinion
    was that the Ranger 23 was *SLOW* relative to the J's.
    
    The Navy Yard club is in Charlestown,MA right next to the North-end of
    Boston.
    
    Frank
    

1357.6Marblehead Sailing CenterSTEREO::HOFri Sep 29 1989 10:4130
    Cranes are an endangered species in many waterfront areas.  Commercial
    cranes are expensive and generally don't operate on weekends when
    they're most needed.  Yacht club cranes require membership in the
    club which can be an iffy thing.  
    
    Recognizing that there is very limited access to the waters off
    Marblehead to small boat sailors, the town of Marblehead established
    the Marblehead Sailing center at the site of the old Parker Boatyard.
    There's a one ton crane and some steps on the seawall in place now.
    Next years plans call for the intallation of a three ton crane.
    Eventually, there is supposed to be a ramp built to accomodate trailer
    launching.  The town is using the Newport Sailing center as a model
    for this operation.  But, politics, economics, and developement
    pressures are likely to conspire against complete fruition.  Everytime
    a boatyard owner even thinks about selling out, a crowd of money
    laden developers/speculaters starts beating his door down.  A similar
    scheme was tried at the site of the Winter Island Coast Guard station
    in Salem several years ago but not much came of it.
    
    If the three ton crane gets built, it'll give convenient access
    to some nice sailing without the hassle of trying to get a mooring.
    One of the Etchells owners is president of the Sailing association.
    Our hidden agenda is to encourage the sale of used Etchells and growth
    of our fleet.  Potential new owners have been put off by the near
    impossibility of getting moorings and lack of accessible haul out
    facilities.  Incidentally, an Etchells single hands well and can
    be had for a song.  Keep it mind in your new boat search.
    
    - gene

1357.7MOOV01::KEENANPAUL KEENAN DTN 297-7332Fri Sep 29 1989 11:239
    Geoff,
    
    If you'd like to get some time on a J/24, I'm looking for someone to
    crew this Sunday out of Portsmouth RI. We're finishing off the season
    with a blitz of 4-5 quick races in the afternoon, then a party. Come
    race your brains out.
    
    -Paul

1357.8$$$?AKOV12::DJOHNSTONFri Sep 29 1989 11:245
    Gene, how much are used E-22's going for in race condition, or in
    condition that can be brought to race condition?
    
    Dave

1357.9Consider something @ 20' ?MPGS::SSMITHFri Sep 29 1989 13:2429
    Your note did not say if a cabin was important, but I can suggest
    the type of boat I own or a variant.  I have had a Rhodes 19 for
    4 years it comes either keel or centerboard and it's variant 
    Mariner has a cabin.  
    
    My boat is a 1974 centerboard model made by O'Day 19'3" LOA 8' beam
    Draft ~6" board up 4'11" board down, displacement 1030#, SA ~ 175 sq.
    ft. main + 110 and ~150 sq.ft spinnaker.  I sail 95% single handed. 
    I have trailered and launched single handed in Marblehead, Newport and
    Falmouth.  I have sailed the Vinyard Sound and with a reef in 
    felt secure reaching across from Oak Bluffs to Falmouth in small
    craft conditions - winds in the mid-high 20's.
    
    The boat was pretty popular 10 years ago and there are good size
    fleets in Manchester, Marblehead, Newport and Pandanaram.  O'Day 
    added a cabin with two berths that got modified a couple times
    to the point of four berths and camper stool and stove later.
    They sold the molds 6 or eight years ago to a company that didn't
    do much with them and then Stuart Marine bought them and is making
    new boats in Camden ME.  I got mine ~ $3500 used and you can get
    a new one with trailer for ~ $7000.  They seem to be pretty popular
    because > 5000 have been built, but few were on the market when
    I was looking.  In addition to sailing well in either light or
    moderate conditions I have always been flattered by compliments
    on the appearance of the boat -- it does have a nice sheer line.
    
    Check one out.
    

1357.10E22 InfoSTEREO::HOFri Sep 29 1989 14:1523
    re .8
    
    Dave, used Etchells go for $5000 - $15000.  $15k should get a almost
    brand spanking new boat.  Only difference between new and old is
    the price.  #51 won more races than #743 this season.  Most of the
    active boats are continuously updated to conform to the new models
    although the layout hasn't changed much in the last eight years.
    
    Joe Duplin at Salem State had some for charter.  Not sure they're
    still available or not.  A lot of them went down to New Bedford
    to establish the new fleet there.
    
    Another option is to share the boat with another person who won't
    be using it all the time.  Frinstance, Stu Neff divides his time
    between his Etchells and the J-33 IO.  Might be worth talking to.
    Bill Reid is an airline pilot who can only use his boat alternate
    weekends.  There are others in the same situation.  Dave Curtis
    at North Sails usually knows whose got boats for sale.  Bob Norton,
    the fleet captain is also a good source.  If you want I can send
    a copy of the newsletter which list used boats nationally.
    
    - gene

1357.11Ex Ranger 23 ownerISLNDS::BAHLINFri Sep 29 1989 14:3824
    I used to own a Ranger 23.   Mine was built in 1971 (I think). 
    I'm not sure the date is important but offer it anyway just in case.
    The specs aren't on the tip of my brain anymore but I think it had
    1400 lbs. of fin (Draft was 3'9") and displacement of 3400 lbs. for a 
    ballast ratio over 40%.   This was a stiff boat!  
    
    I had a 150 genny and could use it most days in Buzzards bay.  My
    foggy memory fondly recalls passing boats that had reduced to a
    working jib.   I also recall being passed by almost everyone, off
    the wind.   I had no spinaker and this boat needs one for speed
    as well as safety (it didn't steer well at all in a following sea
    without the proper head sail/s).
    
    It was by far the most rugged boat in this size range that I had
    come across.   One reason for this (a guess) is that it was the
    smallest in the Ranger fleet and consequently used rigging from
    their bigger boats.  My mast section was more typically found
    in that day on a thirty footer.
    
    Not a light air boat at all but if you like to press, and it sounds
    like you do, this is a boat you won't break easily.   Unfortunately,
    I don't think you could easily trailer it.  
    

1357.12Do they stay stiff?AKOV12::DJOHNSTONFri Sep 29 1989 16:3610
    Gene, I would like to get a copy of the news letter. Probably the best
    way is to meet im M'head.  Also, is there an appreciable loss in
    stiffness in the older boats vs. the newer boats?  Have the rigs
    changed at all over the last few years?  Stu Neff sails Io damn fast!
    Like I said in an earlier note, lots of us are interested.  An older
    boat with a new paint job and sails may be the way to go provided it
    isn't mushy from use.
    
    Dave

1357.13Oh I'm confused, that's good!AV8OR::SAMPSONDriven by the windFri Sep 29 1989 16:5131
     Wow, all these replies, this is great. I don't know much about Etchels so
I hadn't considered one. But I did want more to look at. 
     A cabin was part of my quest. I plan on doing some over nighting and 
weekending. I know in that size range I'm not going to have all the plush 
comforts of home, but I'm a backpacker and don't see a need for plush right
now. Some comfort would be nice, but not if it sacrifices performance.
     I have seen the Rhodes and Mariner. I believe I was kind of less than
thrilled with the same hull with two different deck molds being two different
boats. There may be nothing at all wrong with that, but it didn't make me 
jump up and down. I think what really made me pay little attention to it was
no boom vang and not a traveler for the main sheet. Compared to the Holder,
which is about the same size, it didn't strike me as the hotter of the two
boats. But maybe I'll look at one a little closer. 
     Rangers it seems have been out of production for some time. It does sound
like a boat worth looking at, but I am trying to stay more recent than 1980.
Maybe that's not a reasonable guideline and it is certainly not set in stone,
but if I have a choice of a '77 and an '81 of the same type of boat, all
else being equal I'd go with the '81.
     When I started this I was being very tempted by a Capri 22'. Since then
I have been told enough about an S2 I want to go look at one. The S2 sounds
almost like something that would work for me. This is getting very confusing
but as has been said to me a few times, "It's better be be unsure now than
to be unsure after the purchase". I have to agree.

     Thanks again
     Geoff
    
    
    	and Re: .12 Yah, that's true, but I don't want to get something
    just before it needs major maint. thanks!

1357.14More E-22 infoSTEREO::HOFri Sep 29 1989 17:4936
    re .12
    
    Etchells hulls are solid glass and don't really deteriorate.  What
    goes bad is the cored deck.  Water leaks in through the screw holes
    for fittings and rots out the core.  Just press on the deck of any
    prospective boat around the cuddy, jib tracks and chain plates to
    check for sponginess.  If it's not really bad, drilling small weep
    holes on the underside and re-bedding the offending fittings is
    enough to restore integrity.  Otherwise peel back the glass and
    recore.
    
    The rigs don't deteriorate at all.  They're so soft to begin with
    they can't get any softer.   The one failure point on masts is the
    vang fitting.  If it's bolted through the fore and aft section of
    the mast at the partners, the mast will eventually crack there.
    The current practice is to use a slug in the sail track at the partners
    to which the vang is attached.  A couple of pop rivets on the lip
    of the sail track holds the slug in place without affecting mast integrity.
    By now all the masts fastened the old way have fallen over so you're
    not likely to encounter the problem.
    
    As far as the new paint is concerened.  If it's already white, just
    leave it and buff it out if it matters.  If it's some other color,
    paint it white.  Dull, but it lowers the liklihood of being called
    over early.  Also makes the inevitable repairs easier.
    
    Sails are key.  Go with the latest thinking, North radial foot or
    CT mains and the "wave" jib.                          
    
    If you're serious lets meet after sailing on Sunday.  Maybe we can
    go over to the EYC drysail lot where some of the Etchells are still
    set up for window shopping.  If you want to look at my boat, feel
    free to do so.  You know where it is.
    
    - gene

1357.15exICHI::MCBRIDEFri Sep 29 1989 18:0310
    A note on the Ranger.  This is the same boat that was singlehanded
    around the world by Robin Christopher in the 70's.  He made it okay but
    I do not know what mods he needed to make.  One of my employees used to
    have one but it sank in New Haven about 4 years ago.  Mooring shackle
    let go in a storm and it ran up on the rocks.  He was heartbroken,
    really loved that boat.  Trailerability is probably not an option
    though.  
    
    Brian

1357.16Missed the boatAKOV12::DJOHNSTONMon Oct 02 1989 13:476
    Sorry I didn't get back to you Gene.  I left work early Friday.  Will
    be out of town this weekend but back the weekend of the 14-15th.  Maybe
    we can get together then.  Thanks!
    
    Dave

1357.17Consider a SonarAIADM::SPENCERJohn SpencerThu Oct 26 1989 12:2129
RE: .1,

A wonderful boat is the Sonar.  23' x 8', fractional rig, quite tuneable
but not "string city", active class on the Northshore, and often faster
than a J-24.  It's a moderately light planing keelboat, and has both a
large cockpit for comfortable daysailing and a berthless cuddy which will
just accommodate two people overnight (with planning and sails in the
cockpit!)  Definitely easier to singlehand than a J-24, though racing crew
is 2-4.  Some of our local racing noters have probably seen the Sonar
fleet racing the inside circuit on weekends and Wednesdays evenings.  
(The nationals were also held in Marblehead last year.) 

I've sailed one several times, including with Dave Franzel, the NE 
regional dealer and past class champion, and it's an extremely easy and 
fun boat, though the last ounce of speed does require concentration and 
careful adjustments.

If the size and style of the small J-boats is of general interest to you, 
it would be very much worth your while to sail a Sonar sometime.  Dave's 
in the phone book out on Lewis (or is it Commercial?) Wharf, under Boston 
Sailing Center, I believe.  He's also at the major local indoor sailboat 
shows, too.

New ones run $15K-20K+ depending on sails, trailer, options, etc.  Used ones 
in decent shape seem to run about $8K-12K.  Were I seriously in the market
for a small high perf keelboat, this is about the only choice for my money.

J.

1357.18"Nuthin Shakin" will she float?AV8OR::SAMPSONSail on the steel breezeThu Apr 05 1990 10:1287
A comment or two about my ultimate decision.
     I've ended up with an S2 6.7. I've yet to sail it and it scares me some
that I've yet to see it float. I am expecting it will float and sail well, 
but I'll be keeping a close eye on the bilge for the first few day I have
it in the water. 
     The decision was made after several months of visiting boat shows, 
comparing prices and equipment, finding several different attractive similar
size craft, soliciting as many different opinions as possible and taking
the input from this note. I wanted to wait till I was sailing before I put
in this reply, but I can add that reply in the future. 
     The most prominent factor in my decision was probably the consistent 
positive remarks from anyone familiar with S2. I would seek comments from 
anyone close to boating and in regards to S2 I heard two. Either I'd hear, 
"Never heard of them" or, "Oh S2, those are nice/good boats" (this is why 
I expect it will float too). The Practical Sailor buying guide I borrowed 
from John          reviewed an 8.5 and raved about the construction. Also 
they reviewed three 22 foot boats and toward the end of that article there 
was a single comment about "For the same price you can have sparkling 
performance from the S2 6.7 with minimal accommodations". That fit my 
requirements and the accommodations appeared to fit my desire. I did not 
have an official survey, but I did have a local commercial fisherman, who 
surveys powerboats on the side, look it over for me and his remarks were 
all positive regarding the hull construction and glass work. 
     Another factor in my purchase was that it was the most boat for the asking
price as far as equipment was concerned and size coupled with rave reviews. 
Yes, it would be easy to find a McGregor or Catalina for less money, but I'd
been successful in finding a few negative reviews of either and I was not 
looking for a cruiser without sail shape controls. A J-22 was not ramp 
launchable if the need should arise and has a berthless cuddy, prices in the
same age were asking the same or more, one less in Maine without a trailer.
A J-24, maybe it would have been a better investment, since I'll be on a mooring
anyway, but it's too late to turn back and I don't think I could have afforded 
it either. 
     Another factor was timing. The process was time consuming and I was 
headed into ski season. I nearly put it down to start skiing and look again
this spring. But I wanted to spend my time in the spring preparing my new
boat not beginning the search again. I also expected that come spring time 
prices would go up on all boats. I was mentally prepared to buy when I did 
and would not be satisfied if I still didn't have a bigger boat. Now, doing
the work, I am very glad I have the time to do it and I am glad I secured 
a mooring in January.
     As for the person I bought if from, I've never had such refusal to 
cooperate from anyone before in my life. In the future, and advise I'd give 
to anyone going through the same thing, I will not deal with a seller so 
thoroughly uncooperative. Everything I asked for was immediately answered 
with a "NO". I asked to look at the sails and was told it was impossible 
without a loft. We some how found a way to do it in his basement. I asked 
to rig the boat to assure I could do it, three weeks I was told "NO", he 
had a yard do it which at lest confirmed that the equipment was all there, 
but did not exactly satisfy my request. I paid to have it put up on a lift
so that I could look at the drop keel, which cranks in to the boat, and 
he painted it before I got to see. I fear what he was trying to cover up,
but nothing gross stood out. I do believe I have a good boat, but if I 
start dealing with someone so uncooperative next time, I will walk away 
regardless of what they are selling. Reflecting on this I can't help but 
question what was being hidden from me and it occurred to me at some point 
that I've never seen the boat float. In that I'm scared, because I've spent
an awful lot of time and money to watch it sink.
     What I have picked up so far are some things that never crossed my mind
while I was looking. My forward hatch leaks in the rain. I have pulled the 
window out and will reseat it when the weather dries up. I don't think my 
knot meter works, the LCD appears to have dried up. I hope I can repair
the meter, but if I have to replace it at least I'll get a log on the new 
one. I've found two gouges through the gel coat while removing old bottom
paint. I think I can repair these, they're not enormous, but they are deep.
All the lights had to be fixed, mostly excessive resistance due to corrosion, 
but that's kind of expected around salt water. The mast light needed to be 
replaced, but I've known that all along. Last night I discovered that the 
board where my gauges are mounded has separated from the bulkhead and is 
letting rain water in. All these topside leaks are the things that made me 
start to think about how well she'll float.

     So I've got lots of work to do and I'm determined to get it done before
the end of the month. I need more money as well and I'm kind of caught because
putting in overtime to get the funding would mean not having time to work on 
the boat. I guess the only other option is to stop eating :-), I'll think 
about that one.
     I'm very, very anxious to sail this boat! I've had my 470 out already,
on March 17. She may go out again, but there was a little more damage in
the capsize. From now till then, my time will be devoted to my S2.
     Come May, look for an S2 6.7, "Nuthin Shakin" on Buzzard's Bay with 
too much sail up and and a long haired skipper grinning from ear to ear. 
I'll tell how she sails, if she doesn't sink, after I do that.

     Till then, I got work to do.
     See Ya'
     Geoff
1357.19A tale of a fateful trip..MILKWY::WAGNERMon Apr 09 1990 14:0755
    
    	Congrats on the new boat! Real fast, pretty stable (olde term:
    yare) excellent construction. My last boat was a 6.9, which was S-2's
    attempt to '7.9-ize' the 6.7; more interior and deck stuff, and moving
    lead out of the keel, into the bilge.
    Speaking of keel, I had some problems due to the construction;
    stainless tang surrounded by lead surrounded by malted-milk-ball
    material surrounded by about 1/4" of glass & gelcoat. After smacking
    the thing a couple times, she split, forming sort of a wing keel.
    Except the wing spread forward. Well, S-2 paid for the repair. It
    looked fine for a couple years, then the old delam reared its ugly
    self. This time, I chiseled off EVERYTHING I didn't like, and, with A
    LOT of help from my friends and pros and templates, had a West & lead
    keel, with some mush built in for sacrifice to the Boston Harbor Rock
    gods. On the bright side, being a daggerboard, you only draw 10", with
    everything up.
    
    Oh yes, the foredeck hatch. I went thru 3 in 5 years. The stock one
    leaked; they sent another which fell apart after 1 year, then finally a
    Taylor (like the fenders) aluminum/stainless did the trick. Even kept
    my cushions dry.
    
    I raced her in the area (Hingham Bay/Boston Harbor/Scituate/Marblehead)
    PHRF races. Area champs twice. She blew off some pretty heavy
    competition; the cuts had us racing others up to 33'. In light air
    (July, August, around Boston) reaching with the 'board half up, she was
    hard to catch.
    
    Which brings us to her demise. In last year's JFK regatta, a 55-60 knot
    gust caught us while running uner chute and full main. She turtled, and
    I had not installed the pins in the trunk, so the board slid in, and
    jammed in the 'full up' position, with the retraction tackle. We tried
    to right her, but low horsepower diesel engines weren't made to do much
    more than propel their own hull in 10-16' seas. So, after abot 90
    minutes, I watched her slip under. And there she sits, in about 110
    feet, under Mass Bay. Insurance Co. decided to slip me a somewhat short
    check rather than search for her. Altho none of the divers I talked to
    were too enthusiastic about looking either.
    
    The moral: pin the daggerboard, replace the lazerette hardware with a
    solid latch (plenty of flotation, if they stay closed) and most of all,
    get out there and sail her.
    
    I'm (hopefully) taking delivery of a Beneteau 325 in a few weeks, and
    all the crew in that mishap are ready to come out racing!
    
    Good luck! PS need a trailer? Old main? Assorted Hardware? Factory
    info? E-mail or call.
    
    Now where are those foam brushes.......
    
    
    
    Scott.
    
1357.20So far I'm happy!AV8OR::SAMPSONDriven by the windFri May 04 1990 09:2074
     After two days, sailing just a few miles out I feel very happy with 
the boat. I have to figure out sail trim a little better, but I really 
enjoyed the ride. If I wasn't working today I'd be sailing.
     I took off in moderate air and she seems to close reach at around
6 knots. Close haul, pointing very high, speed fell to just over 4. Sunday
with three people aboard I was able to reach up to 7.3. I like the way 
she sails, but I clearly need to get more of a feel for this boat. But,
that's okay, I enjoyed every day I sailed my 470 and I just got better 
and learned more every time.
     By the numbers for speed you can see I was able to fix my knot meter.
As far as how well it's calibrated I haven't confirmed these numbers yet.
     The forward hatch that I repaired stood up very well to three down pours 
while the boat was still in my driveway. I'll find out how well it held on
the mooring next weekend. 
     Another topside leak was discovered where the instruments were mounted. 
A wooden plank 1/2"x11"x11" was used as a face to mount three instruments,
a knot meter, non-functional log and a depth sounder. I was fortunate when 
I had two people mention that this wood had to be refinished, it hadn't really
entered my mind. Upon closer observation I found that this wood had warped
and separated from the bulkhead, where it was mounted. I originally wanted 
to refinish and remount this same piece of wood, but realized the size of the 
cut piece would not allow proper mounting. Removing the wood and the 
instruments proved beneficial. 
     It became clear that two people had worked on this boat. The original 
owner and the second owner. It appears that the original equipment with this
boat were the compass and the depth sounder. The compass is still mounted, 
water tight and well finished. The hole in the bulkhead for the depth sounder
was properly finished with epoxy sealing the core wood from any moisture in case
of a leak. The holes for the knot meter and log were bare core  wood, drilled 
with a hole saw and left alone. Not only had this wood taken in water from
the recent days rain, but some of the wood had been damp for a long time
and was black. I dug out the wet and the rotted wood, filled the void with 
fiberglass body filler (tiger hair) and sealed that with Marine-tex on the 
surface. With both of these holes sealed I feel better that if a leak allows 
water into the cabin, I won't have water in the structure of the boat.
     The weathered and warped wood where the instruments were mounted was 
replaced with a new piece of mahogany, finished and sealed from the weather. 
Only two holes were cut in this piece since only two of the instruments 
were functional. A matching backing was made and this was all through bolted
at each corner with the holes in the bulkhead over drilled, filled with 
Marine-tex and drilled again. 3M 5200 was used as a bead around the outer 
edge and around each instrument hole to seal this from any possible water 
entering from behind. 
     The wiring, which the seller so proudly boasted about redoing, was 
a bad dream, not quite a nightmare. I cleaned it up a bit, tying wires 
in a better harness arrangement and labeled my leads. I also cleaned up some 
taped crimp connections by removing the tape, old connectors and replacing 
them with connectors made with heat shrink tubing insulation. 
     The winches were less than lubed, but that strikes me as regular 
maintenance any way. It was a lesson taking apart the first winch, but
they're pretty simple machines when you get right down to it.
     Fortunately Scott wrote about the keel concern before I took the 
boat off the stands. I found evidence of the same separation and the less
than faired attempts to patch it. The leading edge was for the most part 
faired. A couple of small ripples and bumps were quickly filed and sanded 
smooth and it matches the shape of the rest of the edge well. The trailing 
edge was a pretty patchy job of epoxy filling that was flaking off in some 
sections and an over filled mound on the port side. I filed the whole mess
off down to clean board material. Then with that great fiberglass body filler
I filled the crease of a news paper and folded it around the back of the 
board, squeezing out the excess and using the paper to get the smooth edge
I wanted and matching the shape of the board. After curing, the filler was 
filed and finished to the shape I wanted and then coated with a thin layer
of Marine-tex for waterproofing. This was all bottom painted with the rest
of the bottom and sanded for a fast finish.
     It's in the water, last I knew it was still floating and hadn't taken
in any kind of serious water. I don't know if I'll get to do any races, but
I don't need that to have fun. Next time I'm shopping for a bigger boat I'll
scrutinize things a little stronger. I have confidence in my ability to do
proper work on a boat, but I'm still not hot about doing any through hull work. 
I just can't wait to sail more!

     Nuthin Shakin 
     Geoff