Conference unifix::sailing

    I'll be there bright and early Saturday!  What time do the gates open?
    

    I went yesterday. 
      Walked in
        Looked at the new Hobie Formula 18
           Had a lemonaid drink
             Bought the Hobie Formula 18 parked there
                 Went home to mow the grass 
    
    I had a feeling this was going to happen if I saw that beauty. I pick
    it up Wednesday, review next week after a shake out regatta.
    
       It was HOT and HUMID in Newport. I didn't even want to start walking
    down the docks where there was no shade. I really feel bad for the poor
    dealers with their ties and blue blazers on out there. 
     
          ************ On a lighter note**************
    
       The real reason I wrote this note was to make an observation about
    the attendees. Did anyone take a serious look at the people who attend
    these things ?  These in-water summer extravaganzas have a look to them
    mostly made by the people who show up. I have gone to Newport a
    couple of times, and have also gone to Annapolious.  They seem so
    very different then the winter shows.
    
       At an indoor winter boat show, everyone looks the same.
    
    - overcoat or Ski parka or LL BEAN cotton pullover in a feastive color
    - slacks / kaki pants / jeans
    - boat shows with road salt stains about the  sole
    - Deathly white color (the Carribean trip is ussally the week afterwards)
    - Maybe the Christmas gift polo shirt with the boat name embroidered on
       the breast pocket
    
    
      At the summer show
    - No jacket 
    - shorts, summer cotton print skirts, kaki pants, kaki shorts
    - boat shoes with a film of sea salt on them or sandels 
    - wide variety of tans. Some look like they just swam the Pacific,
      others look like they own a submarine. 
    - tops are from some event they have been to lately, regattas, Charity
      sail, Def Leopard Concert. No one has on that Christmas shirt with  
      the name stiched on. Heck, these people are ready to "dump" that boat
      for their real lust, a brand new XXXXXX (fill in with your favorite
      maritine dream ship).
    
    
    - Their manners are very different too. In the winter show, these people 
      push and shove. they can't seem to forget those christmas shopping 
      nightmares called mall shopping.
    
    - The winter gang asks questions like what colors do the throw pillows
      come in, or does the boat come equiped with whatever the maganzines
      have been touting the past 2 issues.
    
    - They crawl into every boat that has a small line. Ussally you are
      just below decks of a 22 footer when a 15 member family abiles
    aboard. Sort of like losing your keel as no matter how quickly you try
    to get out of the cabin, humanity is rushing in.
    
    - They can't wait for the season to start.
    
    Summer folks are different . they are much more relaxed. They make the
    best out of the narrow docks. They say excuse me. 
    
    - the summer folks ask questions like "last week I almost got killed/
      inconvienced because of some feature of my boat. How does this boat
      keep such a thing from happening. Or I got skunked with this xxxx
      sail you sold me at the winter show. Who is on drugs, the guy who 
      made it, or the guys you designed it. 
    
    - People select tours based upon
      a. what they are looking for based upon the season so far
      b. the length of the line
      c. how hot it is. there is a correlation between temp and reletive
         humidity. basicly the higher the temp, the less one is willing to
         tolerate the humidity of one's relatives.
    
    - People wish the season didn't have to stop.
    
    there are things in common. They complain about parking, $4 for a slice
    of apple pie, and the number of boaters increasing. They all love
    relaxing, telling stories to salepeople about some trip, and their
    boat.
    
        A bit off track, but thats what I hear, what about you.
    
    
    john
    
    (in shorts, cotton print jersey, and boat shoes)

    
    Hi-This is Gail Young/Gail Warnings, formerly of node ESKWYR.  I've
    been moved to Pharmaceuticals Industry Mktg., but still in MRO3.
     Went Sat. w/husband Peter, daughter Carly and friend's son.  He
    was wondering where the SeaRays were?!  Guess my g/friend didn't
    fully explain "boat show"!  Anyway, 1st time to Newport for a show.
    Have done Beantown shows.  My thoughts and opinions (if they count!)
    are: liked the fact that BIGGER boats were there.  Gives us something
    to dream abt. and set a goal toward.  My brochures are on my desk
    and I can't tell you how many times today I've been asked if I'm
    a "boat person".  People were laid back, probably thinking how nice
    it would be to sail one of these big babies to homeport.  Anyway,
    my husband and I knocked some boats off our "wish list" and put
    some new ones on.  My question is this....Why do manufacturers find
    the need to make a change every yr.?  In boating, I see that a change
    is not always an "improvement"; i.e. Hunter Legend 37 a few yrs.
    back (maybe '86 model) a few came in light oak and had a great interior
    design--spacious, comfy & practical (do only MEN design sailboats?).
    Well, we went into a comparable Hunter and it was horrid (alright,
    I wouldn't toss it over as a gift, but that ain't gonna happen).
    I am a realtor temping here at DEC and I have seen similar disasters
    in house construction.  Men, or these designers, whoever they may
    be, do not consider how people LIVE on boats either overnight cruising
    or longer.  So, the Legend is off our Top 10.  The Island Packet
    is gone off of it too.  Sailors dedicated to speed would take issue
    with the presence of an I. Packet on there in the first place. 
    Howver, last yr. we looked at a 31', I think and for a smaller vessel,
    it gave some good features.  However, the larger one is lousy now.
    Well, Gail, what the heck did you like?  Funny you should ask. 
    Well, the IRWIN stays on and Peter and I have probably happily agreed
    that the 37' (43' if we could eventually swing it; 52' if a windfall
    hits us) is our cup of tea, Twinings, of course.  Now when we were
    on sme Pearsons,  some people muttered something abt. how disappointed
    they were in the Pearsons, just looking down the companionway. 
    I being shy and retiring, mentioned that the Pearson we were on
    was nothing like the Irwin.  The young son boasted a Frers and the
    wife said,  "Oh my husband calls the Irwin a condo on the water."
    Well, boys and girls isn't that what we want?  I mean a boat gives
    us all equal opportunity to have waterfront property, never mind,
    water view!  And, we can even change the scenery and our back yard
    and even our neighbors!  Perhaps you folks who do SERIOUS racing
    would take exception with my statement, but for those of us who
    are entertainment-oriented and who want to "get away from it all"
    and love the thrill of (wo)man joined with nature, etc. (the smell
    of the sea, feel of the salt, sun blisters on yr. lips), modern
    cons are appreciated and a stripped-down boat, while getting me
    there quicker, isn't my thing.  After all, this is
    "recreation",n'est-ce pas?  No hassles--we get those Mon-Fri.  So,
    if we like the idea of 2 heads (they're always better than 1),
    comfortable berths, lots of storage so that we don't have to schlep
    duffle bags of "stuff" (Refer you to George Carlin here) every w/e
    and can even stow away gear, or even have a place to put mags,
    Chapman's, Cruising Guides, cookbooks afloat, reading material,
    tapes for listening to boat music (Spyro Gyra, G. Benson, Jimmy
    Buffett, even Mick and the boys), then does that make us lesser
    sailors?  Does one have to SUFFER?  Should we feel GUILTY for enjoying
    a little luxury (I have a Jewish mother already, thank you!)?
    
    Anyway, the husband than piped up with, "the Irwin is a woman's
    boat" and I replied that my husband was a man (not a new concept!)
    and his choice was still the Irwin.  Now if the Irwin can cruise
    at about 7 1/2 knots in Buzzards Bay with the usual 12-20 knot winds
    that prevail there (and it seems MOST of the sailsman at the show
    when I inquired re design speed spouted off a 7 1/2 knot number--except
    for Catamarans--or thereabouts, then what's the BIG deal?  See,
    I don't think the issue is mfr. or reputation here.  I feel that
    there is a certain snobbishness among sailors.  Those boats
    that once enjoyed a good reputation, who may not now employ as good
    engineers/designers to work up the specs for these boats as they
    once did, are merely riding on the coat tails of what once was.
    One of the Irwin sailsman said Irwin has ENGINEERS to keep improving
    and then try to add the options that people request to make sailing
    that more enjoyable.
    
    I'm sure I'll get some response (please don't yell!--that's why
    there's Womanship!).  But, does anyone see my point?
    
    BTW, I wore white shorts with primary colored sailboats all over
    them and a Liz Claiborne jersey, sailboat charm, and white Keds.
    Husband had on jeans (I told him it was going to be hot, but did
    he listen to me? NOOOOOOO!), docksiders, and '89 Black Dog Tee Shirt.
    
    While standing in a cue (the longest and last one I stood in) some
    schmuck cut in from a different angle.  I felt the hostess should
    have said something--my 13 yr. old daughter almost chewed him up
    and spit him out.
    
    And finally, if I won Megabucks, I'd buy a Little Harbor 58'--talk
    abt. lifestyles of the r&f (as opposed to our 27' which is our answer
    to Lifestyles of the Poor & Obscure).  I've asked for their brochure
    on their 42'.  Any feedback on L. Harbor, other than it's Ted Hood
    etc.?
    
    Definitely not interested Cabo Rico--but we did check it out.  Also
    some lg. trawler was very dark inside-felt as if I were in a basement
    apt.  Anyone see that?  Not sure of mfr.
    
    And, finally, the lemon slush was v. good.
    
    Gotta cruise,
    
    Gail Young/Gail Warnings
    
                                                
    tea--Twinings, of course.

Are you comparing Irwin to Little Harbor?  As in Yugo to Mercedes?

You can buy a six-pack of Irwin 37's for what a *fully* found LH 42 could
set you back -- literally!

J.

(And the LH would probably outlast all the Irwins, even if used in 
sequence.  ;-))

    Ah, Irwins...  My family "moved up" from a great Catalina 27 to an
    Irwin 33 back when I was in school.  First time (lterally) we raced it
    the mast fell over.  Design flaw.  Tried to cut costs by using a mast
    made in two halfs with a long seam up the sides.
    
    After taking the insurance money and getting a real spar we went
    cruising.  About a mile off Block Island my mom goes down below and
    pops up asking if there should be water over the floor boards. 
    Ofcourse not.  Two of the NYLON through hull fittings broke off
    rapidly sinking the boat.  We were real pleased.  What a pile of sh*t.
    The comment about floating condo might not be too far off the mark.  
    Think real hard before getting involved with that boat manufacturer.
    I put them in the same category with Hunter.  Lots of size for the
    buck, but there is a compromise in qualtity.
    
    Dave

    Reading my last reply I think I gave the impression that the boat sank. 
    No such luck.  We had plugs.  Irwin reluctantly replaced the nylon
    fittings with bronze.
    
    Dave

    Dave,
    
    What caused the nylon thruhulls to break? What "circuit" were
    they in?  Was it due to the quality of the thruhulls themselves,
    was it because the gripping surface for the hoses ws too short,
    or lacked barbs? Or was it because they did not use all stainless
    hose clamps? or what?????? Was it due to vibration...... Where
    did the thruhulls break, at the hose side or the nut side...????
    Don

    They broke between the hose attachments and the hull.  The hoses held
    onto the piece that broke off.  We were in a pounding sea for the first
    time and suspect that the motion of the hoses themselves simply broke
    off the the fitting at the nut.  Three others that did not break off
    were cracked.  The two that broke were the head exit hose and the
    engine intake.  That was the one it took a while to find.  Also, the
    thruhulls had no seacocks (obviously).  Irwin learned their lesson on
    that one I hope, but my dad was less than pleased that they would
    experiment with untried material on such a critical fitting.
    
    As a side note, the replacements they put in were of the style with a
    large flange on the outside of the hull.  We insisted they rip those
    out and put flush ones in.  Much greater expense.  They balked until
    legal action was threatened.  
    
    In what was a comedy of errors, the night the mast fell over my dad and
    I spent the night on board in order to get an early start on repairs
    the next morning.  Decided to make some dinner.  Well the factory had
    not hooked up the alcohol stove properly and when pressurized it had a
    leak that turned into a pretty big fire.  Easy to put out, being
    alcohol, but not what we needed at the time.
    
    After a couple of years sorting things out and replacing almost all of
    the standard hardware on deck with workable stuff we really got that
    boat to go.  Turned out to be a good boat.  Oh, Irwins come with these
    awful sails made by Johnson in Florida.  Don't take those either. They
    are garbage.
    
    Dave

    Didn't I read somewhere that Irwin filed for Chapter 11 back in January
    or so?  I'd be worried buying a boat from them if that's so ... where
    they gonna be a year from now, you know, warranty protection and all
    that.
    
    ... Bob
    

    I don't know if Irwin filed for chapter 11 or not, but worse things can
    happen to a company than re-organization under chapter 11.
    
    C+C Yachts became C+C Yachts, Limited Partnership following its reorg
    under the Canadian equivalent of chapter 11.  They re-organized a
    couple of years ago and seem to be viable.
    

    Think Noter .9 is thinking of O'Day filing Chapter 11.  We currently
    own an O'Day 27.  Anyway--no way was I comparing Irwins to LH's.
    How abt a Mazda 929 vs. a Bentley?  A Yugo to a whtever? (was it
    a Benz?) seems a little bit harsh.
    
    Irwin $ range is what I call affordable on our 5 yr plan.  LH new
    (the 58 footer at the show) is if Ed McMahon calls me on the phone
    or drives up the driveway!  I did call LH on Monday and they're
    sending me info on their 42' (smallest they build) and on their
    used ones.  Also the woman mentioned although they aren't "into"
    chartering, she could recommend who does.  Try before you buy is
    always nice.  What do you all feel abt. buying NEW and then chartering
    out to lessen the burden on the wallet?  Has anyone here done it?
    Makes me think of buying property and renting out.  However yr.
    condo in FL isn't going to encounter a barge on the bay if the skipper
    doesn't know what he/she is doing.
    
    Thx for the info on Irwins.  Knowing I like comfort and mod. cons
    with an ocean view, what are some of yr. suggestions for when we
    "move up".  Husband feels a 42' is max for single handed skippering.
    Thoughts and comments always appreciated.
    
    Anyone see Malcolm Forbes gin palace in Vineyard Sound abt. 2-3
    wks ago?  Or the Trump Princess 1 1/2 wks ago in Buzz Bay?  Or these
    lg. cruise ships (Bermuda Star and Royal Viking Sun--quite
    impressive--but why do all these jerky Massachusetts drivers who
    are now on H2O, cruise right next to these barges, liners, ferries,
    etc?  Didn't they ever see the footage on 20/20 and Chronicle abt
    the sailboat that sunk in 34 seconds cuz the guy threw the tiller
    the wrong way?  Why do people have to be so irresponsible?  
    
    Croozin'
    Gail Young

��    Think Noter .9 is thinking of O'Day filing Chapter 11. 
    Both Irwin and O'Day are Chapter 11.

    My dad has an Irwin.  I wouldn't want one, but not a bad boat
    really.  Irwin tries to give you a lot of boat for the money. 
    They accomplish this by fabricating many things that other
    builders purchase. Unfortunatly, as Dave mentioned with the
    mast, Irwin's components tend to not be the best quality. 
    They had lots of quality control problems in the past --
    numerous cases of popping 'green' hulls out of the mold
    before they were fully cured, etc. etc.

    But all these problems make some of the used boats good
    bargains.  All of them are tarnished with the bad reputation,
    but some of them escaped the manufacturing problems, or had
    previous owners who upgraded problem pieces.  (My dad looked
    at literally 35 Irwin 37's between Maine and the Virgin
    Islands before he bought one.)

    A few other stories about Irwin.  We took a ride over to the
    factory one day.  

    My dad had a leak somewhere between the deck and the cabin
    liner.  He re-beded everything and still couldn't find the
    problem.  So, while we're at Irwin, we ask one of the
    production guys.  His response -- 'Only one leak? Wow, that's
    great!'  Excellent customer relations.

    Apparently Ted Irwin is some famous sailor. I'd never heard
    of him, but maybe it was before my time.  Ted had taken one
    of the first Irwin 65s from Clearwater down to Key West.  On
    the way back, they ran aground on a coral reef. The boat
    was chewed up on the reef for a few days and finally what was
    left was finally towed back to Clearwater. Big chunks of the
    boat were out behind the factory.  Kind of an ultimate
    tribute to dork-dom.

I chartered an IRWIN 37 on Lake Ontario for a week a few years ago.
The hull-deck joint leaked big buckets of water whenever we buried the rail.
Unfortunately, we spent a day in fairly heavy weather and we did have the
rail in the water more than we wanted to.

Personally, I wouldn't buy an IRWIN, especially not a new one. But then,
I'd rather buy a used BMW than a new Chevy.

--RS

P.S. The mast didn't fall down.

    My best Irwin story involves a Irwin 40 something and the wrong side of
    a bouy off Stamford, CT. When the boat was hauled at Yacht Haven the
    first thing to hit the pavement was pieces of the concrete ballast.
    CONCRETE, the stuff sidewalks are made of.
    The boat was barely kept afloat by 3 big Coast Guard pumps and the
    first thing they stepped on when going aboard was a chart of the
    harbor. Maybe some boats and their owners deserve each other?

A broker friend (not an oxymoron in this instance ;-)) some years ago told 
me the tale of a fellow in Marina Del Rey who took deliver of an Irwin 
40-or-50-something, and immediately set about tearing out most of the 
interior and rebuilding to his own higher standards.  Two years later he 
was done, and called his insurance company to arrange higher coverage due 
to the now-greater value of his boat.  They sent a surveyor who did a 
complete job, including hauling for hull inspection.  

They gave him his higher coverage, all right.  Right up to the mouth of 
Marina Del Rey but not a foot beyond.  Seems the surveyor found areas of
the hull he could see way too much light through, and evidence of faulty
glassing. Unfortunately, I don't the final outcome of this tale. 

J.

    A coupla boats that looked interesting at the show:
    
    Alerion Express - character boat on top with deep teak cockpit and
    traditional lines.  Tall double spreader rig, big main, small self
    tacking jib.  Elliptical keel and fast underbody.  Sorta like a
    Model A with a vette engine.  Nice, but too expensive for a 28 foot
    day sailer. 
    
    J-27 - been out a few years.  Not many sold.  Narrower, more heavily
    ballasted, and has a shorter foretriangle than other J's.  Looks
    like a better candidate for short handed sailing than the other
    J's.  Will ask for a test sail sometime.  Out of the mainstream
    since J Boats is emphasizing more upscale boats than they used to.
    
    J-33 - Too beamy.  Cast of thousands required to keep it down in
    blow.
    
    Freedom Yachts - Gone totally high end.  Nothing below 32 ft anymore.
    
    Nonesuch 30 - terrific interior.  Saleman claims he races his
    regularly.  Interesting tactic for running - sail is eased 15 deg
    past the perpendicular to the wind to get attached flow.  That means
    when you're running the sail looks like it's on backwards.  Wins
    prize for most expensive 30 footer at 105K.
                                                                   
    Beneteau 235 - A dozen people sat on or in this 23 footer while
    we were on board and it didn't sink.  
    
    C&C34 and 37R - C&C finally put together a functional racing cockpit.
    The advertising doesn't do justice to the hardcore racing layout
    on these boats.  Only for the owner with an extended family of gorillas
    and a private money printing press.
    
    All in all, very slim pickins for under 30 ft. 
    
    - gene

    Did anybody at the boat show see the guy in the REALLY small boat
    who was trying to set some record or other like sailing from New Guinea
    to Cincinatti via the rhumb line in a boat under 10 feet?  Really a
    strange looking boat and stranger looking crew.  He was at Newport 
    collecting donations to help him finance his suicide.  My wife observed that
    if he collected enough money maybe he could buy a boat suitable for the
    voyage.
    

    I'd be interested in knowing if anyone took a serious look at the
    Tartan 372 on display at Newport.  The Executive Officer and I were
    quite impressed.  We are considering a step-up from our 32 footer
    and I found the 372 to be of solid construction, thoughtful interior,
    and cheaper that a Sabre (which I think are on the way to being
    over-rated these days).  Does anyone have any experience with current
    Tartan models, or, has anyone visited their Ohio factory.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob

          (Criticize constructively or don't)
    
    I have been a long time reader of this file and have on many occasions
    obtained some good information. however it dismays me to see notes
    that criticize for the sake of criticizing. There are many boat
    builders today, some are gone and some will come. Probably everyone
    of them has built a bad boat at one time or another. I have spoken
    to many surveyors and also to some publishers of boating magazines
    that review new boats and they have said the same thing.
    
    Secondly, there are builders out there that cater to a specific
    segment of the market and that is okay if that is your type of
    boat, go for it.
    
    When I was buying my latest boat several years ago, I had picked
    out four boats to work with and narrow it down to one. After talking
    with several surveyors and practical sailor and some owners, I made
    my choice. BTW they were not all in the some price range, but close.
    I enjoy my boat, have had very few problems(most of which were caused
    by the dealer through poor dealer prep)it sails very well and is
    fairly fast, although I do not race.
    
    I enjoyed the Newport boat show as I have in the past. I saw many
    boats that I liked and some that I disliked and many that were out
    of my price range, but I like to dream to. I would venture to say
    that I could find something wrong with every boat I went on, but
    that is not why I went to the show.
    
    BTW I own a hunter Legend 35.

    This year was the first time I went to the show during the week
    (Friday) and it was much better.   Many times I had a boat entirely
    to myself so I saw things you never get to see on the weekend.
    
    My favorite deck was the Hans Christian 41T.   This is a serious
    cruiser and makes no apologies for it.  The interior workmanship
    was among the best at the show.   
    
    Does anyone in this file know anything about this builder or the
    sailing habits of these boats?

    I have quite a bit of info on this hull from the designer Scott
    Sprage(?). Call me and I'll hardcopy it to you.
    Looked into the 41T before buying the Nauticat. 
    Built in the far east and not very flexable as to changes in the
    deck. The interior has three versions that could be mixed to give 
    some level of choice.
    I felt the interior to be very dark even with the skylight.