Conference unifix::sailing

   
    A friend of mine who co-owned a boat said that the best thing about
    it was that you didn't feel obligated to sail it EVERY weekend to
    get your money's worth.  This made for a more balanced life ashore.
    
    

I have moved the base note (looking for a partner) to the for sale note
263.357.

I would be interested in hearing from anyone else who has comments about the 
pleasures and pitfalls (be kind) of sharing boat ownership.    

Jeff.

    Pleasures are many.  Sharing expenses and duties being the most
    obvious.  I have owned boats only with partners.  The advantage
    is that I can own a much larger boat than on my own.  Denis (my
    partner) and I have different skills and responsibilities.  The
    amount of piddly stuff to track down in maintaining a racing boat
    is amazing.  On top of that organizing crew is a major time consumer.
    Can't imagine doing all that myself and holding a job.
    
    The pitfall is that you and your partner don't share the same basic
    vision of the function of the boat.  If he (she) thinks the boat
    is a social platform meant to have a plush and immaculate interior
    and not spend that much time sailing, and you think it should be
    campaigned heavily, you're going to have problems.  This is the
    extreme, but you get the idea.  I can't overemphasize how important
    this is.
    
    Also, partnerships where the agreement is that usage alternates
    weekend and is not simultaneous have more problems.  For example,
    if a halyard breaks while one is using it, who fixes and pays for
    it?  It is obviously not a problem  that just developed during that
    one sail, but what if he overtightened it?  Splitting duties becomes
    something that has to be clearly outlined in the agreement.
    
    Ah! the agreement.  Get one and have your lawyer do it.  It should
    outline usage patterns and disposal procedure.  Expense sharing
    and expected duties should also be there.  DO NOT STEP FOOT ON THE
    BOAT UNTIL YOU HAVE COMPLETED THIS STEP.  It is so easy to put it
    off until there is a problem, and then it is too late.
    
    I hope you find a partner as compatible as Denis and I are.  It
    makes a huge difference.  I know what it is like to share a non
    liquid asset with a person who hates you because of what you want
    to do with the boat.  No fun.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Dave

>    Also, partnerships where the agreement is that usage alternates
>    weekend and is not simultaneous have more problems.

Boat usage with my parteners has not become an issue. Neither of us end up using
it enough to interfere with the other.

>    The pitfall is that you and your partner don't share the same basic
>    vision of the function of the boat.  
    
This is where I have most of my 'problems'.  None of us race (which would
compound it), but when I sail I want to SAIL.  My partners are much newer to
sailing. One is afraid of the boat because of the size. This means that when we
sail together (which is a lot) I sail differently than I would wish. But this
situation is not restricted to the partners, it also happens with my mate.
She tends to see sailing as a social time, hance "let's take it easy". Finally,
when we take out friends, they also are inexperienced (sometimes it's their
first time) and again we have to "take it easy". Really the only time I have
been able to sail "my way" is with an experienced crew and no one else
(including my mate). Given my own home and work situation, this has not
occurred all that often.
    

Jeff

    What's the standard way to "buy into" an already owned boat?  A friend
    had suggested that we go into partnership on his boat, which he's owned
    for several years.  We were going to split the equity, ie the boat was
    worth $35,000, he owed the bank $26K, therefore the equity was $9K
    and I'd pay him $4,500 cash.  Then we'd divide the monthly payments in
    half, $205 each.  Annual expenses were also split 50/50.
    
    Is this typical?  I think I remember a book that came out a few years
    ago on boat partnerships;  does anyone remember the title?
    
    P.S.  I put the above in past tense, because the friend lives in
    Charleston, SC.  The boat lives at the bottom of Charleston Bay.
    
    Travis Belton

    re. -1.  Buying into a boat.
    My advice is that it is tough to find the value of a used boat without
    selling it and therefore the amount of equity in the boat is not
    certain.  (The same problem people have with houses...many people feel
    that their house is worth more than what it would actually sell for on
    the open market.)
    	You might also discuss this with the bank.  The note that the bank
    holds might not allow your friend to sell partnerships in the boat.  A
    new agreement with the bank would have to be drawn up.  Also, there is
    the issue of title to the boat...will your name be on it????  As with
    most financial deals.....and especially with friends....see a lawyer to
    help draw up the agreement.  Nothing can make a friendship go sour
    quicker than arguing over money.  Just one example would be "How do you
    handle the situation where one person wants to sell their share of the
    boat?"  How is the price determined???  Must you sell to the other
    partner or can you sell to someone else???  Thhis can be a very messy
    business!!!
    Ric
    

    An alternative to sharing ownership (and out-right ownership!) is
    professionally managed timesharing.  The type of arrangements I've
    seen go like this:
      1) The boat owner signs an agreement with the management agent
         specifies how many shares the boat will have, the lease fee,
         and how many shares the owner receives.  The owner receives
         a large percentage of the lease fees, say 70%. 
      2) Leasees/shareholders agree to pay a monthly lease fee and 
         an upfront fee to get checked out on the boat.  A lease share
    	 specifies some number of guaranteed days for the leasee and
    	 perhaps whether the leasee can use the boat 'spontaneously'
         if it is not signed out.
      3) The agent agrees to maintain the boat, find sharesholders,
         schedule time, etc.

    I find a timeshare really meets my needs.  For an annual cost 
    which compares very well with the annual cost of ownership, I
    can sail a boat in the 30-40' range.  No maintenance other than
    cleaning up after a sail; no worry about security, equipment 
    breakage and replacement, or winterizing; and I can schedule 
    far in advance.
    
    Cost?  I'm leasing a 35' Pretorian cruiser.  Very well equipped,
    medium displacement cruiser.  I've got essentially a half share
    for $1800/yr ($150/month), which guarantees me 32 days per year.
    A full share of $3000/yr would guarantee me 64 days per year plus
    unlimited use if scheduled within 24 hours of use.  
    
    BTW, I live in the Seattle area, sail on Puget Sound.
    

RE: .6    "How do you
    handle the situation where one person wants to sell their share of the
    boat?"  How is the price determined???  Must you sell to the other
    partner or can you sell to someone else???

Neither of us were interested in the boat long term;  we both were doing 
this to 'tide us over' until we were better situated to get the boats we 
really wanted.  However, we thought that the issue should be covered in the 
contract, and we were going to try to set a price schedule so that after 
the second year if one person wanted out, the other had the option of 
purchasing at that price, or also selling out.  Admittedly, this was risky 
due to the unsure nature of the used sailboat market, but neither of us 
felt like we would want to exercise the right to buy the other out, but 
would opt to end the arrangement instead.


RE .7 "A full share of $3000/yr would guarantee me 64 days per year plus
    unlimited use if scheduled within 24 hours of use."  
    
This seems awfully cheap to me.  That's nine weeks worth of sailing--
chartering a 35' boat for nine weeks would be twice that.  And nine weeks 
is just about the entire summer season, at least in Maine, and presumably 
in Puget Sound.  How many lease holders at $3K are there?  What's the catch?

    re:.8
    �This seems awfully cheap to me.  That's nine weeks worth of sailing--
    �chartering a 35' boat for nine weeks would be twice that.  And nine
    �weeks is just about the entire summer season, at least in Maine, and
    �presumably in Puget Sound.  How many lease holders at $3K are there?
    �What's the catch? 
    
    The sailing season here is year-round, except for maybe January if
    things get very cold (here, that means <30�F).  Not many boats get
    pulled for the winter.  Yes, we are further north than most of (all?)
    New England (47�), but the climate is much more like southern Ireland.
    Marine temperate, don't ya know. 
    
    How many full leases?  The company I lease from does not allow more
    than 5 full shares, of which the owner gets 1.  The owner has the
    option of limiting to less than 5.  Most boats I looked at had less
    than 5 shares contracted for and some had less than 5 allowed at the
    owner's request. 
    
    The catch?   I guess there are several: 
    
    o You essentially sign a long term contract. You commit to paying that
    monthly fee until you want to get out of the contract. You get out by
    giving 3 months notice.  When you sign, you hand over a hefty
    membership fee ($500-700 depending on boat), so you have to amortize
    that cost over the length of your membership. If you quit early, the
    true monthly cost goes way up. 

    o My agency guarantees the # of days per share but you have to take
    your days by certain rules.  First, the annual number of days gets
    split into quarters.  So, the real guarantee for a full share is
    16 days per quarter.  Use 'em or lose 'em.  Second, on a boat with
    lots of shares purchased there are bound to be scheduling conflicts,
    especially for weekend time.  There are certain rules about the
    number of weekend days you can have scheduled in advance, the number
    of consecutive days you can schedule, etc.

    o You have to like to sail in the rain, cold, and fog! The climate is
    temperate although the water never gets warm (>55�).  Summer is nice
    but the winters live up to the rumors about Seattle.  You can't take
    all your 64 days in the summer! 

    And I guess I'd have to speculate that the interest in sailing in
    this area is probably at a low given the modest resale prices on
    boats and the low number of shares on most of these timeshare boats.    
    The Pretorian I lease had its monthly fee reduced by $30 due to
    the soft market.  

    As I said before, this arrangement fits my needs really well...but
    I'm certainly not suggesting it fits everyone's.  I'd be interested
    in knowing if there are timeshare arrangements on the U.S. East Coast.