Conference unifix::sailing

    
    There are many people in Quincy Mass. who would be willing to talk
    to your friend about the rewards of the the boat business.  They
    are all the former employess of the the General Dynamics shipyard
    there.  This is admittedly cynical.  But the only the thing
    differentiating General Dynamics and the Little Harbor boatyard
    is the size of their operating deficits.  Boatyards are not a growth
    business.
    
    In Marblehead there are no longer any privately held boatyards.
    It just got too expensive for the original owners to keep them going.
    In order to retain some level of yacht service for its boating
    population, the town took over the yards and employs a company to
    run them.  There's some potential for employment there but mostly
    minimum wage stuff.  Not much potential for advancement. 
    
    For some who are sufficiently enamoured of the yachting lifestyle,
    it's worth the financial and professional sacrifice to get in lots
    of sailing time and hang around yachties.  But even these people
    often drift into other aspects of boating like brokerage and surveying
    where the work is less and the dollars slightly more (sometimes).
    The majority I've known eventually get "real" jobs and chalk up
    the yachting years as interesting experience.
    
    Ditto for the design side.  Budgets for even expensive boats don't
    leave much for the designer.  When prorated over the number of hours
    involved, the fee turns out to be very low wages.  A well educated,
    high IQ engineering friend became engrossed with yacht racing and
    explored getting into designing.  Bought a boat, did well, won lots
    of prizes.  Thought that if she could do that for herself she could
    do it for others.  After some thoughtful analysis, she opened up
    a dress shop.  More upsided potential and a more generally useful 
    experience were her reasons.
    
    The above caveats aside, the call of romance can be overpowering
    (we all bought boats didn't we).  If that's the case, call the
    Marblehead Trading Co. and ask for a job.  Curtis Boats has been
    looking for someone to run it's operations for years now.  Call
    them up.  But first make your killing in investment banking to
    subsidize the good times.
    
    - gene
                      

    Things can't be a whole lot better with the manufacturers. Many sailboat
    makers have had to close their doors in the last few years. Even 
    Sabre, who has successfully bucked the trend, is feeling the impact.
    Sabre has recorded increased sales in 18 of the last 19 years. Last
    year according to NMMA figures they picked up a 30% increase in
    sailboat market share. Yet recently, their #2 exec (Chris Axelson,
    VP of Sales/Marketing) split for a non-marine related position selling
    fire extinguishers! Granted, his reasons may have nothing to do with
    his perception of future of the industry, but I wonder???
    
    J_R
    

I count among my friends many boatbuilders and a couple designers. I have 
visited their shops or studios, and have some fair estimates of their income.
The only ones living anywhere close to a decent standard of living have some
substansial family fourtune behind them, and really do the boats as a hobby.

Ive twice almost bought small boatyards, for my dream to move to Maine and
live a fun filled life. Not having any family fourtune behind me, I recall those
little blue envelopes DEC sends me each Thursday, and here I am.

If you want to live above the poverty level make boating a hobby, not a business.

    	Well based on the general consensus, it good news for me (Im
    not tempted to run away from my blue envelopes and vacation time)
    but bad news for my friend. It was not unexpected however giving
    the general health of the industry based on sales figures of new
    boats. 
    	Its too bad we just can't run off and do the things that really
    put the gleam in our eyes and still have the funds for the things
    that float and roll and whatever. I myself also have a weekness
    for sports car racing and would love to design race cars. BUT, you
    think yatch designers are living frugally!
    
    	BTW, I'm rather fresh at this sailing stuff, 2 years to be exact.
    I own a 14' Catalina Capri and will be attending Bert Williams Coastal
    Sailing School in just a few weeks to get exposed to the "bigger"
    side of things. I would love to crew for anyone that has experience,
    stories or is just shorthanded. Im a very fast learner and need
    some sea time under my belt. I should be available most anytime
    in a month or so and can be reached at WONDER::BRODEUR or DTN
    293-5972.
    
    	Thanks for the input, I'll pass it on.
    
    Paul

RE: .0,

Maine Maritime's yacht design program used to be the privately owned Yacht 
Design Institute in Brooklin, ME or thereabouts, and was inherited
(bought?) lock, stock and barrel by MMA from Bob Wallstrom (sp?) who
started it many years ago with Ted Brewer.  Perhaps a decade ago or so,
Brewer booked it west for Washington state, leading YDI behind. 

Common wisdom used to hold that Westlawn and YDI were roughly equivalent, 
with YDI focusing perhaps a bit more on small sailing yacht design (at 
least when Brewer was there.)  I did a year-plus of Westlawn in the early 
'70s as a post-hippie exercise, mostly because it was a shorter program 
and marginally cheaper of the two at the time.  Yes, it should definitely
be approached only as a hobby.  If you make money at it, particularly
enough to live on in any real fashion, you're probably at least as lucky
as you are talented. 

Echoing Ron's sentiment:  I'm still hooked on those blue envelopes, too.

J.

    If your friend is talented in electronics or engineering, they could
    always try a company like Navtec or other similar techy company
    to practice the trade.  This would also provide for a closer
    relationship to the sport from a more practical if not profitable
    stand point.  Browsing through the marine catalogs may prove to
    be analogous to a browse through the help wanteds.
    
    Brian

    You may be onto something there, Brian.
          
    I saw an add in a boat mag a few months ago:
    
    Wanted:  Director of Engineering - Haarken Co.
    Only experienced engineering managers with successful sailing
    experience need apply.
    
    Any applicants out there?
    
    In a past life I had a brief professional affiliation with the
    Westerbeke Co.  Few, if any, employees owned boats or had any interest
    in boating.  Those that did were into power.  About the only thing
    anyone ever said about boat builders was that they never paid their
    bills and they didn't know a hoot about engineering.  I saw more
    boats when I worked for an importer of Czeckoslovakian fork lift
    trucks.  We used to go down to the harbor to watch them come off
    the container ship.
    
    - gene

    Old joke:
    
    How do you make a million dollars building boats???
    
    
    Start with two million and get out fast.
    
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

    I have a couple of questions about an opportunity that has been
    afforded me recently.  I have an invitation to buy into a
    marina/boatyard in the Chesapeake area and am seriously considering the
    move.  It has about 50-55 slips, 80 ton lift, 10' draft at the gas
    dock, full service facilities for wood and fiberglass repair, sub
    dealer for Catalina/Capri & J-boat, brokerage, sailing club, lessons,
    and a small yacht club.  
    
    In addition, they have yard space for seasonal storage for at least 120
    boats as that is what is there now many of which will be prepped for
    spring by the yard.  
    
    I am seriously considering making the move and would like any insights
    on some things to look out for.  The deal is that the current owner
    will train me for the next few years until he is ready to go on a
    sailabout.  His plan is to retire and sail around the world at which
    time I would refinance and take over the business in total.  They seem
    to have a good local following, excellent location on a small creek off 
    the Rappahannock river no more than 2 miles from the Chesapeake proper.  
    
    I am concerned about trends in the industry especially VOC legislation
    and other environmental issues like ground water leeching and do it
    yourself type restrictions.  Current business climate in the industry
    etc. I know boats are (weren't) selling well but they have no floor 
    stock so there is no investment for the dealerships.  They do not have
    a proper marine store nor do they currently stock or sell accessories
    like electronics, dinghy's, motors, clothing etc.  They are a Yanmar
    authorized dealer though.  
    
    From what I gather, the slip fees pay most of the current note so
    services etc. are hopefully profit above and beyond.  I am going down
    to look the place over again but would appreciate any thoughts
    positive or negative on this type of venture.  One last thing, I would
    also be given an apartment at the Marina so my housing costs would be
    negligible except for possibly utilities.  I would not be surprised if
    the marina paid for these also.  I do not know what type of salary I
    could draw at this point which would have to be enough to live on but
    without housing expenses (current mortgage 25k/yr) I could take a cut
    in pay easily enough and still maintain a similar standard of
    living....I think.    
    
    
    Brian

    This has long been a dream of mine, and this past winter I did some
    serious talking with a small yard in Maine. So far, I havent bought it.
    
    One big area of worry is the environmental issues. There is serious
    reason to believe the regulations may put boat yards out of business.
    One proposed reg would require a yard to capture and treat ALL rain
    water falling on the property for a 24 hour period. It is currently
    required that all sanding operations be done over a concrete floor,
    with capture and treatment of all run-off. So boat owners will have to
    pay to move into and out of the sanding shed, as well as the actualy
    work cost. It may drive the price out of reason.
    
    Any activity on waterfront property is coming under increased
    regulation. Note the number of 'boat yards' now well inland, in
    industrial type locations. The waterfront locations may be reduced to
    just the docking and hauling, and sale of summer operational supplies.
    All repair and storage may be forced to inland sites. Can your yard
    support itself under these terms?

    
    
    
    
    
    The value of the business is based on a combination of two valuation
    methods.   1) Net Asset Value 
               2) Future Earnings Value 
    Both approches need to be adjusted for future earning risk, like an
    EPA lawsuit.  That risk should be hedged by lots of ground sample
    tests.
    
    Bottom line is, most marina's for sale, are priced high, as if a land
    developer were to come in and build water-front condo's.
    
    Usually, at that price, the marina cannot make a good return.
                                              

    Actually the run off figures are more like rain falling on the property
    at x inches per hour for y hours.  One proposed piece of legislation is
    48 hours I believe.  Yep, this is also one of my bigger concerns
    regarding the business.  It is sufficiently far up the river/creek so
    as to miss a good deal of casual traffic.  There is no real reason to
    go there other than dockage/fuel.  It is across the Rappahannock from a 
    sizeable town (Urbanna) where there are at least things to do or stores 
    available for provisions etc.  The yard/maintenance would be a big 
    factor in keeping the business profitable.  If that were to go away 
    Condos may be the only answer.  
    
    Can anyone point me to a source of information regarding pending
    legislation that may impact boat yards?  I may drop into a local yard
    around here and ask a few questions as well to see what's what.  
    Thanks for the replies.  I'll post any information I get in the future.  
    
    Brian