Conference unifix::sailing

I'm not an expert, but .....

PHRF ratings are in part the rating committee's judgment and are in part 
based on the design of the boat. 

In the case of fractional vs masthead rig, the difference might be due 
to the larger spinnaker a masthead rig would carry.

There are occasionally large differences between the ratings assigned by 
different PHRF fleets to the same boat. The rating for our boat is 168 
in the Long Island fleet and 198 in the Marblehead fleet. Strange, since 
the winds on Long Island Sound are lighter than around Marblehead, and 
our boat is not fast in light wind. Also, our rating has increased every 
year. I don't think our boat is getting slower (on an absolute basis). 
Rather, I think that the fleet is simply getting faster, so that we are 
relatively slower that we were a few years ago.

    The difference between the J36 and J35 covers more than just the
    rig.  The J36 has a heavier hull and a shallower, lighter keel.
    Be thankful the relative penalty is only 10 seconds.  For the J30
    and J29 the difference is about 15 seconds and they're both fractional
    rigs.  I've been away from it for a while but my recollection is
    that the J35 is very competitive at its PHRF rating.  The thing
    that really raises the curve on the J35 is the ability of some of
    the more prominent owners.  Wiley Wakeman and Rick Howard both
    campaigned J35s and rarely finished out of the money.  But both
    have been world class one design champions since they were kids.
    If I spent a season sailing a J35 against either of those two in
    a J36, the J36 would owe the J35 a half hour/mile.  But despite
    that, the general consensus is that the J35 is faster if properly
    sailed.  The key point to remember is that there are NO insigficant
    variables that affect boat speed.  Seemingly small things make a
    profound difference.  Have you checked the following:
    
           Keel shape - is it what the designer drew.  Get a table of
           offsets from Stu Johnston, make a template and measure it.
           QC at Tillotson Pearson is pretty laid back.  No two keels
           ever come out the same.
    
           Clean bottom.  Do you clean thoroughly just before each race.
           Do this even if you have what you think is great bottom paint.
    
           Sails - they have to be perfect.
    
           Trim - record what works and doesn't.  Mark every adjustable
           item on board.
    
           Weight - get all the extraneous stuff off the boat
    
           Prop - keep it aligned with the strut

RE:.0 by DELNI::FACHON


> is it {PHRF} simply based one a committee's appraisal
> of a boat's performance?

Close to it.  If you own a 'base boat', you will get a number that is
chosen purely by committee.  I have tables for modifications like
genoa size,  spinnaker pole size,  mast height,  and propulsion type.
I assume but I don't know, that these tables would be the same for all
PHRF committees.  This is from Narragansett Bay RI USA.
Of course there is a adjustment field labled "other".

Rating adjustments for genoa size

Size (LP/J)   Sec/mile  Size (LP/J)   Sec/mile  Size (LP/J)   Sec/mile  
Up to 1.24      +9      1.421-1.45      +2      1.631-1.66      -5
1.241-1.27      +8      1.451-1.48      +1      1.661-1.69      -6
1.271-1.30      +7      1.481-1.51       0      1.691-1.72      -7
1.301-1.33      +6      1.511-1.54      -1      1.721-1.75      -8
1.331-1.36      +5      1.541-1.57      -2      1.751-1.78      -9
1.361-1.39      +4      1.571-1.60      -3      1.78+ adjusted accordingly
1.391-1.42      +3      1.601-1.63      -4



Phil

    This PHRF rating system has always been a mystery to me too.  Ratings
    change on some boats from year to year, suggesting that it has
    something to do with how well a particular class of boats do in
    a given season.  I have also noticed that certain boats have different
    ratings, depending on whether they are sailing in Marblehead or
    in Buzzard's Bay, for example.  I've been told that that is because
    the PHRF rating system is really a set of guidelines, and that there
    are several factors besides the boat type that affect these.  Also
    that the guidelines are subject to interpretation by a particular
    race committee.  
    
    Re. .0,
    
    There are a few more differences than just rig between a J/35 and
    a J/36.  These have to do with total overall weight and keel shape.
    Also, a J/35 is supposed to point better.  I have noticed, however,
    that the J/35 and the J/41 have the exact same rating, at least
    in Marblehead.  Now *that's* surprising!
    
    Greetings from WAGS.  Happy sails...
    					... Bob
    

re .3:

I don't think that all fleets use the adjustment tables you mention.
According to your genoa table, we should get a +7 seconds per mile
increase in rating. We don't get any bonus at all. We do get +6 seconds
per mile for a fixed two-blade propeller (which, according to a
Practical Sailor article, is way, way too little). The idea of PHRF is,
I thought, to give everybody a rating that gives him a chance of
winning. No way. The ratings assume all the latest go-fast sails, etc.
No increase in rating for age of boat or dacron sails or anything. If
you try to race (as we did) with old dacron sails, etc, you simply
embarass yourself by consistently finishing last. No fun, so we quit
racing. 

Maybe if I could persuade my crew to buy a J24 ......

    If you want to pursue it, call John Collins at Wilson and Silsby
    Sailmakers in Marblehead.  He's the local PHRF guru and can tell
    you why your rating is what it is.  There is a national listing
    of ratings for all boats that have ratings which can be obtained
    from USYRU in Newport.  I think it's around $10.00.  These, however,
    are just a starting point.  The actual rating for a particular boat
    is a judgement call.  Despite the intent that PHRF not be a
    developement rule like the IOR, there is some amount of optimizing
    that can be done.  Because the penalties for certain modifications
    are somewhat arbitrary and generally not questioned by the raters,
    one can trade off penalty seconds against performance increments.
    For example, Alan gets +6 seconds for his fixed prop versus a folder.
    What if he trades in his 16 incher for an 8 inch high pitch prop. 
    Same +6 seconds but a performance decrement over the folder of only
    maybe +3 seconds, especially if lined up with the keel.  Similarly
    a 160 genoa on a heavy cruiser can enhance its light air performance
    enought to outweigh the -3 second penalty.  There is also the sex
    appeal factor.  If your boat looks fast, you get screwed rating
    wise.  I sailed several seasons on a J30 that went from consistent
    last to fleet champion with no change in rating.  In reality we
    subtracted a good 20 seconds per mile from our actual sailing
    performance by ruthlessly concentrating on preparation and sailing
    fundementals.   For boats in a 25 second rating band sailing skill
    outweighs any rating irregularties.  In areas where the racers are
    hardcore the ratings assume a perfectly prepped boat.  Where things
    are more casual, boat and crew condition may enter in.  My favorite
    system is the M'lhd Wednesday night rating.  Every time you win
    they tack a penalty to your rating.  It's pretty hard to win more
    than twice.

    Thanks to all for your thoughts.  Evidently, I've been
    on the race course with some of you at least.  I race
    aboard the J35 "Bodacious."
    
    Now that I know more about the differences between the 35 and
    36, the rating difference seems justified.  But the subjective
    nature of the rule is still a bit frustrating.  For instance,
    there's a particular 37 footer -- belonging to a certain fellow
    who has already been mentioned in another "reply" -- that rates 90,
    but moves more like an 80.  And it is amazing that "Aja" rates 
    72, although we do seem competitive with her on a boat-for-boat 
    basis.  I've never seen the kind of speed I'd expect from that boat.  
    Too many bumps!  ;)
    
    What I'd like to see is a PHRF ruling to outlaw KEVLAR an MYLAR.
    Give us fully battened dacron.  
    
    Death by BUNDA!
    Dean F.    

    
    	I've spent the summer racing on the J37, "MAD MAX" out of the
    Hyannis Yacht Club.  The J37 has a PHRF rating of 66!  The rating
    was determined in part because Rod Johnstone advertised that the
    J37 was 12 seconds a mile faster than the J35.  We are going to
    the next local PHRF meeting to appeal.
    	PHRF works well when you have boats of a similar size and a
    10 knot breeze.  At our club races the J27's won it all on corrected
    time, with the 35's a close second.  The J37 is a *fast* boat but
    it is not that fast.  I'll take IMS rating over PHRF any day.  IMS
    is very confusing, but at least takes into account different wind
    conditions.                          
    
    					=Ralph=
    
    				
    	

    Re. .7
    
    I had a feeling you were on "Bodacious".  Just so I know who I'm
    talking to, I'll holler and wave next time we're milling around
    the starting line.  That's about the last time we'll probably see
    you guys anyhow till the race is over.
    
    About AJA, I'm told it's a pretty lumpy boat, designed as an IOR
    rulebeater.  But I agree that it doesn't seem to sail up to it's
    rating.  Maybe the guys sailing it are still figuring out which
    strings to pull to make it go fast.
    
    About that '37 (BUMPA by any chance?), maybe if they keep winning
    their rating will be 80 next season.  Look what happened to the
    Soverel 33's this year.  It doesn't pay to sail better than your
    rating.
    
    See ya on the race course...
    				... Bob
    
    

    re .8, and "It doesn't pay to sail better than your rating..."
    
         Doesn't that put the PHRF in a whole new light.  
         And I thought everyone should be striving to improve!
    
         In all, the best arena is one design.  Ironically,
         we did Halifax instead of Block Island -- where there were
         24 35s in their own class.  And unfortunately, there are no
         J35 regionals this year.  The nationals are in Larchmont
         NY, but from what we hear, no one from Maine or Newport is going,
         so we're forgoing them as well.  We'll do a few more 
         Marblehead races -- shooting for the PHRF championship 
         of all things.  See you on the line.

         Dean

    Does anyone out there have PHRF tables ?  If so could you please look
    up and post the rating for a Rival 32.  No spinnaker. 100 % jib fixed 2
    blade prop, incompetant skipper ?
    
    Thanks

    
    	Still looking for the 32, but for comparison:
    
    	Rival 36: 144
    	Rival 41: 120
    
    	No Chute: this means, race in the `Cruising' rather than `racing' 
    	division.
    
    	100%: hmmm- add around 6 or 9 seconds, will look it up-
    
    	2-blader: add 6 seconds
    
    	Is it a roller-furler jib, and all dacron sails? Add another 6.
    	(at least for New England PHRF)
    
    	I'll call John Collins if I can't locate the 32's rating at home.
    
    	Scott (semi-competent, at least upwind...)

    We had our "Mates" race on Saturday.  This is a race where the usual
    "mate" of each vessel takes the help and the Skipper is not allowed on
    board.  Usually the Skipper becomes crew on another boat.  (as an aside
    that makes for interesting speculation on Sabotage).
    
    Anyway, I was on a Victorie 34 ... big dutch boat which co-incidentally
    happened to come over the line first.   My boat, the Rival 32 sailed a
    superb race, ducked the Victorie's stern just after the start and
    sailed higher and faster long enough to be first at the first mark.  A
    slight trimming error caused them to loose way on the reaching leg
    which then allowed the Victorie to pass.  I caused my (temporary)
    skipper some concern as I yelled some trimming advice to my wife as we
    went by, however that was the race right there.  The Victorie just kept
    trucking in 10 kts of pretty much all reaching/windward work with only
    a very short running leg.  Secret Arrival with my mate on board held
    off a mirage 26, a Bayfield 29 a thunderbird and a late starting C&C 30 
    to come over the line second.  
    
    Now the problem, I dont have the PHRF rating for the 32 yet.  -.1 gives
    144 and 120 for other Rivals but something don't work on that, the C&C
    30 which is a rocket sails at 186 and my friends Sigma 33 is 148.  Both
    of those boats a significantly faster than mine.  When I had my steel
    boat, I raced at 254 for a while and then dropped down as I won a race
    or 2 and in certain conditions, the Rival seems to sail the same as
    Vital Spark.
    
    If anyone out there does know the Rival's number I would appreciate it
    and also in relation to -.1 how do you apply the seconds adjustment ?
    
    Finally does anyone know the PHRF rating for a VICTORIE 34 ? or should
    I just assume that they rate around 100 ?
    
    Thanks.

    re.  -.1  does anyone have the PHRF ratings ? Puhlease .....
    
    
    
    even a pointer as to another source would do.
    
    Thanks

    
        US Sail has a database with all this in it. I haven't the number
    for their modem though. A call to information in Newport R.I. for US
    Sail may get you the number.
    
       Good Luck
    
        john

    
    	Sorry, unable to find anything in the main (PHRF) database. I
    guess these boats are a bit tougher/heavier than what chases around the
    buoys between the Gulf of Maine and Long Island-
    
    	Anyway, if you want to mail to me, EVERTHING you can find,
    measurement-wise, I can try to provide a good ballpark for you. One BIG
    help is if they were measured for I.M.S.- PHRF borrows very heavily
    from those numbers since an actual hull gets measured. Rating a boat
    from the glossy advertisements is often a joke-
    
    	Scott.

    I found out US Sail does not have the PHRF numbers online. Only
    race committee stuff.  ;>(
    
    But if you call them in Newport RI, they will happily give you the 
    numbers for a boat. They don't even ask for a membership number. ;>)
    
    In American Sailor, there is a seperate section on PHRF racing this
    month in addition to some articles in the magazine itself. Several
    different types of races are described.
    
    The one I liked was slow boat starts on the gun. Everyone else waits
    for thier handicap for the distance before they start. The idea is
    everyone should cross the line together. I would love to see this with
    50 boats where 12 or so crossed at the same time. The race committee is
    going to have a long night saying who placed where.
    
    
       john

    We run a number of reverse start PHRF (pursuit) races on lake Winni. 
    They're a blast and great fun.  To make them work well the course has
    to be laid out properly with a mix of upwind, reach and downwind legs.
    As far as sailing through the lee, the fleet is usually spread out far
    enough that the faster boats (phrf-84) sail most of the race in clean
    air.  
    
    The real benefit of this race is for the novice racer.  It's an ideal
    format to get you feet wet as it avoids the tense moments at the
    starting line.

    Well, we just did our annual Mates Race where the usual skiiper is high
    and dry and the Mate runs the ship.  This year my wife was away so my
    10.5 yr. son took the boat with a couple of the guys.  Two things came
    up, first they hit a mark ... they were in a hole in the wind and
    drifted into it ...they had to tack back up to the mark and then
    re-round it ... I felt that they could have gone on but done a 270
    somewhere on the course as a penalty.  THe 270 would have helped a big
    deal if they did it on the upwind leg where theere was wind.
    
    Second, is the same rating thing that I lamented last year, although
    this year I seem to have a formula for the PHRF that seems to do it ...
    the formula is   Rating=
    ((3600*factor)/(sqrt(1.9*sqrt((.8*i*j)+(P*E))))-312 ... Does anyone
    agree and if so, I find it interesting that the rating only looks at
    potential sail area and not displacement, underwater config. etc.
    
    
    By the way, Jimmy came 2nd
    
    
    Unfortunately out of a fleet of 2!

    
      re .20
    
       I have to agree with you on this one. Hull shape makes a heck of
    a difference. There are 2 boats I race that are 1 foot shorter, so I
    owe them time. But their shape compared to my 25 year old design has
    them kicking my butt when the wind is light or a chop comes up.  They
    seem to slice right through it.
    
      The trick would be how to handicap the things. From my reading of 
    "COMEBACK" by Dennis Conners, there are methods for doing this, but
    you need a lot of compute power and very very detailed drawings. In
    1983 they tried to do this on the Australia II wing keel using the
    DOD's best software and could not get an accurate reading. I don't
    expect the IYRU to start this in the near future.
    
    
       The end of season readjustment is needed. I know of a boat that had
    a 33 rating, with a 20 second penality for winning the prior week
    bringing it to 13. They still won. Looks like the rating for next year
    will be 16 and they could owe points. It will be an even race then.
    
       But why cry about it. Not much one can do short of one design. 
    It is only fun right??