Conference unifix::sailing

    
    I always get mail from some place near the cape cod canal on this.
    They call them DOCKOMINIUMS.  (sigh)
    
    You don't really "OWN" it, but have a 99 year lease. I suppose I
    won't be around to care, but it may have legal implications not
    apparent at first glance.  
    
    Off hand, it seems that $10,000 to $20,000 in a one time fixed
    payment would be better than the per foot charge on my 40' after
    just a few years.  WHY NOT DO IT?
    
    Outside of the obvious check for astronomical maintenance charges,
    the problem is that these companies just smell of Herb Tarlick and
    timeshare ripoff schemes.   The details are never stated.  If you already
    finance your boat and deduct the payments, can you deduct the payments
    on your dock?  Is it all considered one residence?  Does the leasing
    bit screw you?   What is your liability if someone slips on your
    dock?  Do you need a DOCKOWNERS insurance policy?   Can you sell
    it yourself?
    
    Etc Etc
    
    I'd love to hear enough to convince me.  Renting is an obviously
    poor investment, and slip fees which goe up by the foot each year
    more so.
    

    This may sound rather naive, but *who* technically owns the water
    where the docks are anchored/floating?  If a lake is primarily the
    owned and regulated by a township/community, then does the yacht
    club or marina share the profit of the sale with the town?
    
    Seriously, how can any one individual or establishment own the
    water?  Don't we as citizens of this country *all* own the rights
    to our waterways.  
    
    I can see paying for the right to be able to access the water
    from privately owned land, but the water is or should be protected
    from money hungry clubs or organizations.
    
    What's the limit to how far the docks can be extended from the 
    shoreline?  If I were selling slips at $20,000 a pop, I would
    certainly try to add more slips so I could make more sales.
    
    Moorings on the other hand are being banned on some lakes and
    probably should be.  Some moorings present obstruction to boats,
    especially in not so favorable weather conditions.
    
    I am greatly involved in boating, have been, and hoped to always
    be.  However, dockominiums sound like a general means of keeping
    out the average person who can not come up with 10 - 20K.  Are
    we turning into an "exclusive" nation?
    
    Just another means to capitalize on our waterways of America.
    Someone's pocketing the profit

    Is not there a move-a-foot to outlaw these????  I think I've read
    something about the DEQE looking into them (having hearings).  Some
    have argued that the space over the water is goverment property,
    therefore it belongs to the people and can not be sold (maybe thats
    why the 99 year lease).
    
    Any-how I don't think the dust has settled on this one yet.  I'd
    be interested on what the latest is.
    
    Cheerio,
    Tom
    
    PS God willin and it don't rain I'll be in Sunday
    
    

       I was watching this old house last week when they visited a group
    of houses built on special styrofoam and concrete barges. evidently
    they buy the water rights for 100,000 dollars and then pay a yearly 
    maintence fee to keep the docks up. The houses were located on a
    large lake in Seattle Wa. Since the show was a repeat from about
    3 years ago, does anyone know if they have run in any trouble.
    
       A second question I have is how would any slip insurance work.
    I saw last week where a marina in pleasant bay is now filling with
    sand since the outer edge of the bay was washed away. Would a policy
    cover your losses should the same thing happen to your insured slip
    ( you could always rent it out as beach parking right?!) ?   
    
       Boating is going to become exclusive. Look at the prices of moorings
    and slips, the MA state revenue folks are looking into taxing them
    some more. They figure you'll pay for your fun (vice ?), and they
    can generate a buck. And now the Coast Guard is cutting back services
    which generates money for the tow companies and their insurance
    policies. It was only a matter of time before the condo moguls stuck
    their fingers in the pie. Ever notice that every major waterfront
    project in Boston harbor always includes a marina?  When was the
    last time you saw a private developers asking for permission to
    install a launching ramp?
    
       There is only X number of places to tie a boat to safely. To
    help stem the problem of growth, the state should use some of our
    fees to create launch ramps and areas for temporary moorings so that
    a lot of the daysailors wouldn't need to tie up a mooring that a
    larger boat could be tied to. This is a better use than building
    air conditioned out houses on the highway for out of state motor
    coaches.
    
    john 
    
    
    

    
    	These "dockaminiums" are obviously a great moneymaking proposition
    for the sellers, as they seem to be springing up all over.  They
    sound like something one ought to be pretty cautious about getting
    into, but then many of us do have to tie up to something or other
    don't we.  In N.H. mooring space is at best scarce, I've been on
    a waiting list for Little Harbor in New Castle(read Portsmouth)
    for 5 years and only now am I down to around #15.  I checked out
    dockaminiums last year in the area, and the starting prices seemed
    to be in the neighborhood of $30,000! I had understood at the time
    similar arrangements further south in Mass were starting 10-20K
    more, and southern Maine a bit less.  I've understood from the start
    that boats were indeed just big holes in the water to throw money
    into, I accept that as a given,... but $30,000 for a platform around
    the hole does seem a little steep doesn't it ?   Res Ips Loquitor,...
    or however that goes...

    
    	Ownership of the water is very rarely the issue, its
    	access to land which has access to the water which delegates who 
    	moors or docks.  No "individual" owns the water unless they own
	the land which completely surrounds it, and even then they can not 
    	modify its flow without the Govt approving.
    
    	In theory, the dockominiums are to provide the builder/converter
    	with massive profit (unless they finance, they receive all their
    	money at closing) and the individual with docking privilages
    	for a specified period of time (20 to 99 to forever?).  I expect
    	you don't actually OWN the dock you pay for, but are a cooperative
    	member in the dock (allows for a blanket insurance policy?)
    	and as a member you are allowed access to the dock, parking
    	for your vehicle, shower facilities etc etc etc.  The deals
    	I have heard about only sell about 60% of the slips, renting
    	out the rest.  You can sell or lease out your slip, though
    	there might be something in individual contracts which limit
    	your freedom to do what you want.  
    
    	ROI appears to be about 10 years at present rates with 12
    	month access (Fla for example).  Of course maintenance fees can
    	be expected to put another bite, but should be broken down
    	into services (like overall dock replacement in x years)
    	security, water, etc etc etc.  Like any deal, if they won't
    	talk specifics or allow you to take the contract to your
    	lawyer ... run away.
    	
	I have a small article somewhere about a guy who converted a
    	marina into a docko project (he sunk 3-4 million into it first)
    	that sounds first rate (Ft Lauderdale) but he might be the
    	exception.  If I can find it, I'll put it in here.  It doesn't	
    	answer the question since its from the builders viewpoint, but
    	has some interesting figures and facts (?).
    
    	I would say that if the deal is fair and you're really	
    	into staying with boating, its a lot safer than hoping 
    	you'll find a slip (and wondering how much it went up this
    	year ... in the past 4 years my slip went up 100%, the bulk
    	of it last year).

    			Ed - who hates condos, but thinks docko's
    			    might be ok.

    I have been sailing out of Bend Boat Basin in Portsmouth RI for
    years and like it there very much.  When I heard of their plans
    to dockominiomize the slips I, like many others at the Bend, began
    to ask lots of questions, talk to lots of people, and finally ended
    up forking over the huge sum of money to keep from being locked
    out of the slip market.  
    
    The East Passage Yacht Club has a rather hefty lease agreement that
    states specifically the terms and conditions of leasing a slip.
    I believe that it is definitely a risk.  There is currently a lot
    of discussion about the legality of this, and the effect on those
    of us who have jumped in already if these become illegal is not 
    at all clear.  From the beginning I was concerned about the 
    permits that govern the rights to use the water adjacent to the land
    owned by the marina.  The current permits lapse in 39 years.
    What happens if the permits are not renewed?  The lease agreement
    that I signed states that if the permits can not be renewed or if the
    lease can not be carried out for the full 99 years  then 1/99th
    of the purchase price will be refunded for each year remaining on
    the lease.  Next question - if the marina spent the money on building
    fancy condos, where will the money come from to repay the dockominium
    leasees?  Well, that sounds like it would turn into a class action
    suit and who knows, maybe I'd lose some money.
    
    I'm concerned about the maintenance fees and reconstruction fees.
    I tried to get some real numbers from the marina and some history
    from the other marinas run by the management company.  I didn't
    have any luck.  I can only hope that these fees won't increase
    dramatically over the years.  Only time will tell.

    I love sailing and I love having convenient access to my boat. 
    My slip fees have increased dramatically over the past couple of
    years and I anticipate that they will continue to increase.  I believe
    that over the next few years my lease payments will be equal to
    rental payments.  At least this way I can rent out my slip when
    I plan to be away and get all the rental income, I can have the
    management company rent it for me and get a cut of the rent, I can
    "sell" my lease.  I have more options than I had when renting.
    
    Though I'm definitely uneasy about the thought of losing 32k I figure
    that I may as well enjoy my hard earned money and that hole in the
    ocean I call Illusion is where it all seems to go.  Now that I've
    committed myself and have talked to many others who have also leased
    at the East Passage Yacht Club I'm pretty comfortable with it. 
    

    Pam Rickard

Re: .2 or .3 -- In Massachusetts long ago (17th, 18th century) the 
government created some laws designed to encourage commercial development 
of the water's edge.  Remember at that time a) most commerce was 
water-based or water-related, and b) they desperately needed economic 
development.

Since then, obviously the game has changed.  Now there's Chapter 91 and a 
slew of other laws and forces in play.  As it stands, a developer can 
legally exploit the coastline within certain (sometimes stringent) 
guidelines.  Any major changes in this balance will probably have to be 
legislated, and those already in existence may well be grandfathered.

FYI, if you're in the market:  There's the first slip condo project in 
Gloucester available right now, just on the market.  It's located just off
Rt 128 at the Annisquam River bridge.  A slip for something up to 35' is
$50K; for up to 42' is $70.  Dinghies, however, are a bargain at only $7K.
Seriously (if you can...), how long do you think those prices will sound 
outrageous?  How long before they're sold out?

Gentlemen, start your wallets!
                                 ;-),   John

Perhaps the current difficulty in selling used boats is an indicator
that more and more people are finding that the cost of boating is too
great for the pleasures returned, as well as more than they can afford.
As reasonably priced slips disappear (thanks in part to the seemingly
unrestrained greed of the dockominium developers), people may begin to
give up boating. With less demand for slips, prices may fall rather than
rise further. The Gloucester dockominium John refers to is, in my
opinion, in a lousy location and only a fool would spend $35 000 and up
for a slip there. 

Much though I enjoy sailing and working on our boat, I would be 
extremely reluctant to spend much more of our income on sailing. Even 
now I occasionally question whether the cost and time are worth it.

Another thought: How many people will buy dockominiums and then turn 
around and rent them to someone else? A friend of ours owns a Lake 
Winnipesauki dockominium, which he rents. He uses the rental income to 
(partially) pay for his slip at Constitution Marina in Boston. 

Another thought: I suspect that in the short run (less than 5 years) at 
least, the cost of a dockominium (maintenance charges plus loan interest 
or lost investment income if you paid cash for the dockominium) is 
significantly higher than current slip rentals. I'd be surprised if the 
place in Gloucester is renting slips for $100 per foot per year. And a 
$35k dockominium for a 35' boat will certainly cost more than $3500 per 
year. 

Another thought: Moorings are going to become increasingly popular. Our 
Marblehead mooring costs us about $400 per year. I am quite happy to pay 
myself $3000 per summer to row 0.20 nm to and from the boat. And I can 
use the exercise, too. 

Alan

From a local paper, 10/5/87, reprinted without permission:

PLEASURE BOATS OVERWHELM HARBORS
by Dana Kennedy, AP
Marblehead, Mass.-The 5- to 10-year waiting list for a mooring in this 
picturesque, rocky harbor north of Boston mirrors a growing predicament 
around the country where many ports on both coasts are at capacity with 
pleasure boats.

Boat owners must wait for moorings or slips from the California coast to 
Chesapeake Bay where harbors and marinas have been unable to meet an 
explosion in the number of recreational boaters in the past decade, coastal 
officials said.

Connecticut has fewer than 18,000 slips and moorings for 85,000 registered 
boats.  Boat owners on Chicago's Lake Michigan face a stiff new tax and 
penalty system designed to control traffic.  And new boat owners in 
Southern California are being turned away by the hundreds from popular 
harbors like Newport Beach.

Boaters in Florida may not find a shortage of slips but the cost of the 
prime marinas in Fort Lauderdale can run as high as $10 per day per foot, 
forcing many boaters to tie up their craft in remote waterways, Florida 
Coast Guard officials said.

"We're bringing unbelievable pressure on the coastline," said Rich Delaney, 
director of the Mass. Coastal Zone Management program.  "It's really a 
matter of numbers.  Seventy-five percent of the population lives within a 
hour of the coast and the number of recreational boats has just grown so 
dramatically in the last 10 years."

The nearly 10 million recreational boat owners in the country has already 
doubled since 1970 when only 5 million people owned boats, according to 
Elaine Dickinson, spokeswoman for the Alexandria, Va.-based Boat Owners 
Association of the United States.

The switch to Fiberglas boats in the mid- 1970's made boats more 
affordable and prompted boaters to buy larger craft that are impossible to 
haul by trailer and harder to fit into packed harbors.  In the past 10 
years, the average size of a pleasure boat has grown from 25 to 30 feet, 
marina officials said.

Solutions, such as building new marinas, are few because waterfront land is 
considered too valuable for boat-oriented developments.  Another obstacle 
is the zoning and environmental permit process required for new marinas, 
which takes an average of three years.

Regional planners on Martha's Vineyard took drastic steps to curb 
overcrowding off Edgartown:  they zoned the surface of the harbor.

"More and more people are buying boats and buying bigger boats," said 
Florida C.G. Lt. Cdr. Paul von Protz.  "The demand has far exceeded the 
supply.  Anywhere there's a resort town there's trouble."  San Francisco 
Harbor is horrible, even Lake Tahoe is unbelievable, just as bad a shortage 
of spaces as an ocean marina.  and if you think it's bad in Florida, just 
try the Virgin Islands.  They don't have waiting lists there, you just have 
to wait for someone to die."

In Marblehead, more than 1000 boaters are waiting for 3,000 [newspaper 
misprint?-TB] moorings in one of the Northeast's best-known and desirable 
harbors.  But Harbormaster Jack McCloskey said many boaters try to beat the 
wait through nefarious means.

"There are always countless people dreaming up new ways to get in all the 
time," McCloskey said.  "They try and buy there way in or they try and 
sneak in at night and throw a midnight (illegal) mooring."

    Time to rev up the condo slip question.
    
    Since the the 1987 time frame where have the prices gone ?
    Are people having trouble selling them ?
    
    Any state laws that have changed the legal status ?     
    
    I noticed last summer that the Dockaminiums at Kingman Marine
    in Cataumet MA were not full.
    
    Is the boating depression and the recession doing them in ?