Conference unifix::sailing

     Chris;

     Well here is my $0.02 worth ....
     
     I would tend to avoid the Venture/MacGregor like the plague. The boat
     is built fairly inexpensively as both the retail and resale prices
     indicate (i.e. you get what you pay for). A witty friend of mine
     claims it is the only boat that you can get a suntan when lying on one
     of the bunks (i.e. the boat tends to be somewhat translucent). It
     might make a nice lake boat but I would be leery of how well it could
     take the Atlantic. Some of the details such as through bolting the
     chain plates instead of embedding the chain plates in reinforced FRP
     gives one some cause for unease. In general the finish work is
     pretty lousy.
                  
     The J-22 is a fairly nice constructed boat as the resale prices
     indicate. It makes a nice racer if that is your goal, but its
     accommodations are Spartan to say the least. It would probably have
     the best resale value of the 4 you mentioned. I believe there are
     also several J boat associations available.          
     
     The Catalina is of medium construction and features a "pop-top"
     which will extend the head room if you want to stay overnight on
     it, but the "pop-top" shouldn't be deployed while under sail.
     
     The O'Day 22 I am not familiar with, although I am familiar with
     the O'Day 25. Again I would choose a Catalina over an O'Day because
     of the integrity of construction.
     
     Another boat to put under consideration would be the Hunter 23,
     but again it is a cheaply made boat.
     
     Questions I would pose are;
     
       a. Are you looking for a trailerable ? If you plan to sail in
          the New Hampshire coastal area, the non-availablity of moorings
          would require you to trailer. The O'Day I believe in its swing
          keel configuration takes very little draft which would be
          convenient to load and unload.
     
       b. Are you looking only for day sailing or do you plan to try
          cruising ? If you are racing and daysailing only, then the
          J-22 is the best choice, if you want to stay overnight on
          the boat, the Catalina is the better choice.
     
       c. How much do you wish to spend ?
     
       d. Do you want to buy new or used ?
                         
       e. If you are looking for used where are you looking ? Good places
          to get listing are; the Boston Globe, the Want Advertiser,
          and Offshore magazine (in ascending order of desirability).
          Understand that most of prices quoted are asking prices and
          can be negotiated down. Send mail to John Rodenhiser (NECVAX::)
          and if he still has his BUC used price book, he can give you
          some idea of the "official" prices.
     
     I hope I haven't been depressing on boat quality, but most 22 footers
     are not designed to take the ocean when it gets rough. Since I
     like to cruise, this is a prime interest with me. If you plan to
     only daysail and race it probably isn't with you.
     
     /jim
     Owner of 25 foot Northern     
     

    Taking any light 22' sailer ocean sailing is risky.  I would not
    leave the dock on a Venture, or the bay/harbor on a Catalina or
    small O'Day.  J have always been very well built considering their
    D/L and the bigger ones have proven themselves in bad weather.
    
    I guess I would question your intended use more closely, since all
    the above will fit into some kind of sailing.
    
    The things to ask yourself are:  1) what kind of sailing will you
    do most (club racing or coastal cruising),  2) what are the waters
    like most of the time (smooth bays with light air, or offshore),
    and what kind of investment do you want to make.   If your choices
    were the result of this process already, I would leave you with:
    Pick the J.
    
    Walt

     At the risk of making some enemies here, i'm going to give you
    my view of the replies you'll get here. Don't be decieved by the
    "If your going to drive, it HAS to be a Porche" additude. In the
    harbor i'm moored in, there are PLENTY of smaller Macgregors,
    Catalinas, O'Days, ect. and the owners (including myself) go
    out, sail these boats and have a great time!!!!!
     You are probably not into anything too heavyduty (just guessing
    by the fact that you're sailing with two young kids) so i would
    suggest buying the best boat you can for the money you can spend,
    than understand that boats limitations and sail it accordingly.
     Sure a J boat is better then an O'day or Catalina (at TWICE the
    price, i think) and an O'Day or Catalina is better built then a
    MacGregor (again at TWICE the price).
     The moral of the story is, A Sunday drive would be a lot more fun
    in a BMW but don't stay home because all you can afford is a Ford
    Escort. Buy what you can afford, use it safely, and have a GREAT
    TIME!!!!!!

    I can agree with .-1 to a point.  Theres no need to buy a BMW if
    you only go out for a Sunday drive.  You can get away with less.
    
    Unfortunately, from what I have seen of MacGregor, you get a Chevette
    at something like Nova prices, while with a J, Catalina or O'Day
    you get a Camaro for Camaro prices.
        
    Price isn't everything.  Look at the boat.  Thats all people are
    saying here.  If there is a $5000.00 difference in cost, find out
    why.  You may have to temper your sailing habits with that knowledge
    later on.  Like the difference between sailing in and around a harbor
    entrance vs sailing from one harbor to another in open ocean.
                                                  
    Rick

Given the reputed sorry state of the used boat market (ie, low selling 
prices and nothing much selling), I'd suggest expanding your list of 
boats a bit. There are a number of other boats available for similar 
prices that are worth looking at and offer more room for four. For 
example, the C&C 24 and 25 and the J-24. There are lots of these around, 
and many are old enough now that the selling price might be lower than a 
smaller, newer boat. If you're willing to forego racing, then older 
Pearsons, etc, are possiblities. 

Unrelated observation: We passed through the tailenders in a PHRF race 
yesterday. Crikey, even the back-of-the-fleet boats are using mylar and 
other high tech sails. It appears that cheap racing is an era past.

Alan

    I was going to stay out of this one after I saw the first couple
    of answers. I concur with the feeling about MacGregor's and wouldn't
    leave the dock in one either. At least not a salt water dock.
    
    But I've got to respond to .3:
    
    Nobody's saying that you've got to buy the Porsche or BMW all the
    time. What they are saying is that the ocean (and some large lakes)
    can be a very unpredictable and unforgiving place to be at times.
    If you're going out there then you better have a safe boat.
    
    You really did come to the same conclusion but it needs to be
    emphasized. You buy the best equipment you can afford, you develop
    the experience to handle it safely, and you don't over extend the
    capabilities of either.
    
    It's strictly a personal opinion (backed up by an awful lot of
    supporters) but a prudent person would not make a habit of sailing
    Ventures off the New England coast. 

    John

     The Prudent person also would not make a habit of sailing off the
    New England coast in a light 22' boat with 5 and 7 year old children
    on board either. This leads me to believe that is not the intended
    type of sailing this person is looking for.
    
     I am by no means recommending a Venture to this person but rather
    I am attempting to answer the other half of his question. "Would
    anyone care to comment on the relative merits of these boats, including
    'bang for the buck'". 
    
    
      P.S. As for "not leaving the dock on a Venture". If i only had
    <$5000 to spend, i'de buy one and have some fun Sunday afternoons!!!!

    Generally I tend to keep my mouth shut when it comes to criticism
    of specific boats. At least when it's to a wide audience. It too
    easy to hurt somebody's feelings. I'm sorry if I have stepped on
    any toes with the Venture criticism. With respect to .3 and .6, I
    realize that you have purchased a boat from Havencraft and they were
    a MacGregor dealer. I don't mean to attack your boat if that's what
    you own.
    
    But.....
    
    Your response in .3 was to ASSUME that people would knock this boat.
    I just did some checking in BUC and your view that Catalina and
    O'Day were twice as expensive as Venture and that J-22's would be
    four times as expensive doesn't hold water - so to speak. Maybe
    they are if you're looking at new prices, I don't have any data
    one way or the other. But the price range for used boats falls
    between $5K and $8K for all of them.
    
    Somebody's Sunday afternoon fun could be someone else's foolishness.
    I won't pass judgement. I've seen Hobie's and windsurfers out in
    the middle of Buzzard's Bay on Sunday afternoons when it was blowing
    30 knots. They appeared to be having 'fun'. I was wishing them good
    luck and saying a silent prayer.
    
    John

      Don't worry about my toes, I did what i had to, to get on the
    water and am having the time of my life. I more then anybody understand
    the limitations of the Venture and for that reason did not and would
    not recommend it. My point was (and is) only to bring $$$$$ into
    the picture along with quality.
    
     Now to the price...I'm seem to be hearing some very contradicting
    messages. Yes, i was refering to NEW price which goes pretty much
    as i pointed out in .3 (again the J boat i'm only guessing but i
    bet i'm not too far off). Now for some simple math...If the Catalina
    and O'Day cost new twice the price and the Venture, due to poorer
    quality depreciate faster, how do thay end up the same price???
    I'm sorry if i sound sarcastic here (don't really mean to be) but
    whatever you read in a book is DEAD wrong. If i could have found
    an O'Day or Catalina for $5 to $8K, i'de be sailing one now!!!
    From what i saw after months of looking (this past winter) both
    those boat averaged around $10K.
    
     P.S. My last boat was an O'Day and i loved it. My current boat
    would have been a Catalina if i could have pulled it off!!!
    
     P.P.S. I also own a 16' Hobie which i will be sailing in Buzzards
    Bay this weekend. Any chance you'll save one of those prayers for
    me????????????

    I bought a new J-22 in 1983.  I had sailed about 13 years prior
    to that but was really a beginer again.  I bought the boat from
    Lawson Yachts in Hingham.  Sam Lawson delivered the boat with mme,
    went racing with me and taught me most of what I know about sailing.
     The boat was a very pleasent and positive experience.
    
    I paid $12,500 for the boat with just about every option except
    a spinnaker.  This included a trailor and an outboard.  I traded
    the boat in on a C&C 27 and got back $500 more than I paid for it.
     I understand that the "trade-in" or "cash in hand" situation but
    this was more convenient for me.  I had made some additions to the
    boat so, I felt that it was a fair deal.  The dealer Sailboats
    Northeast moved the boat very quickly.  So, there is a market for
    the boat.
    
    Some general comments:
    
    * You get what you pay for.  The boat is heavily rigged for its
    size and extremely well made.  It is a strong boat.
    
    * I have gone from Quincy to Provincetwon in it with a good crew.
     Accomodations are poor, but this is not what you buy one for.
    
    * there are all kinds of sail controls.  After using them you will
    want them on any boat you sail.
    
    * The boat is tender but she is really fast.
    
    * Boat sails very well on just the main.  However, I would recommend
    a small storm jib be carried.
    
    * The boat has extremely light helm and will go hard to weather
    with only one finger on the helm.
    
    * like all J's she points extremely high.
    
    Why didn't I buy another J-boat.  My oldest son wanted another.
     However, my wife, who is not a sialor, felt that it was too small,
    and too tippy.
    
    If you would like to talk more about a J-22 I am on DTN 297-5023.
    

    My $.17 worth...
    
    re .9
    >  whatever you read in a book is DEAD wrong. If i could have found

    John's "book" is in fact the book yacht sales types use in determining
    the value of a boat and I believe he has the current issue so his
    information seems fairly lively to me.
    
    Personally, I take humbrage at being referred to as a BMW or Porsche
    type. My values are much more 1/2 ton pickup. :<)   
    
    Back to the original topic...
    
    Based on your sailing area (I'm guessing you'd go as far as the
    Annisquam or Cape Porpoise/Kennebunkport but the majority of time you'd
    be off Portsmouth - all of which is Gulf of Maine stuff) and the ages
    of your children, I'd recommend that you look at a heavier boat that's
    not going to get bounced around as much.  
    
    The Cape Dory Typhoon falls in your price range, I think. Friends of
    ours have one and are very happy with it. They're both over 6' and have
    three kids and when asked about being crowded they say that it's never
    been a problem. You can put a head on it and sleep 4. But the best
    thing about the Typhoon is that they sail very well. She won't point
    with a fin keel or centerboard boat, but you'll get a smoother motion
    and she's not anywhere near as tender as the boats you've mentioned. 
    
    Cape Dory 22 and Sea Sprite 23 are larger versions of the Typhoon
    with similar capabilities.
    
    Ed
    

    Well Chris, I guess you noticed one of your choices struck a nerve.
    
    I would still like to hear more about what kind of sailing you plan
    to do (racing in one-design class, weekend cruising, mix of both
    - % of each).  
    
    Both Typhoons and J-22s are excellent boats but they are at opposite
    ends of the sailing spectrum, so the recommendations will likely
    be very mixed untill the 'usage' assumptions are clear.
    
    Walt

    My experience of solo cruising along the coast of Maine, living
    aboard a 12' Firefly class racing sloop may label me as an extremist,
    but I'm not convinced that bigger is better.  There are a lot of
    22' and smaller boats that can give you a lot of pleasure daysailing
    and weekends and I would recommend you find a copy of a book I saw
    last night in the Acton Library:
    
    			Sailing on a Micro-budget
    			by Larry Brown
    			Seven Seas Press
    			524 Thames Street			
    			Newport, Rhode Island
    			02840
    
    			Price $14.95
    
    One boat shown in this book that appealed to me was a catboat called
    a Marshall Sanderling by Marshall Marine in South Dartmouth, Mass.
    Does anybody know anything about these?
    

    
    	Since a number of people have mentioned the choice depends on
    what type of sailing one intends to do and, of course, on the budget
    I had better give some background.
    
    	By far the majority of my sailing will be cruising, and the
    greater majority of that, day sailing.  I would like to be able
    to do overnight cruises too.  I really enjoy racing, but would be
    happy to crew for someone else if that is appropriate, as opposed
    to buying a 'racing' boat.  (In fact, if any one needs racing crew,
    call me ANYTIME!)
    
    	I need a boat that is easy to sail.  My wife is has very little
    sailing exprience (but I have access to other crew), so I need a
    boat on which she can learn more.  I have sailed Catalina-22's on
    lakesand like the way they sail.  I would have to say that my primary
    requirement in a boat is stability.
    
    	The main reason for listing the boats that I did, was expense.
     I am limited to around $10K, though have no problem with a used
    boat.  I have seen a number of 22 ft boats, fairly well equipped
    within the price range, but most boats longer than 22 ft seem to
    be much more expensive.  I would welcome the chance to get a 24
    or 25 ft boat but they are rare given the price I can afford.  I
    am leaning towards a Catalina 22, but like the looks of the J boats
    though they are more pricy.
    
    	Thanks to all for their comments so far.  I really appreciate
    the comments on the Venture 22 - they mostly confirmed my own
    suspicions!
    
    chris.
    

    Part of the confusion about pricing, depreciation, etc. is due to
    my lumping of a bunch of different models and years together.
    Also, these prices included bottom of the line from one mfg and
    top of the line of another. For example J-22's don't show up UNTIL
    1984 and Ventures don't show up AFTER 1983.
    
    Also any prices I quote are without engine and/or trailer since
    you have to go to another part of the book for that stuff.
    
    I don't know a lot about these 22 footers but from what I can see
    in BUC you've got to be very careful with models AND model year.
    For example O'Day built just the O'Day 22 through '82, in '83 they
    had both the O'day 22 and the O'day 222, in '84 the 22 went away.
    The Venture was a Venture 222 in '78, became the Venture 22 in '79,
    and the MacGregor 22 in '83.
    
    Interesting that several responses seem to hold the Catalina in
    higher esteem than the O'Day. Is it because Catalina gives you
    more boat for the money? Again, BUC shows O'day to be more expensive
    than Catalina (and even J-22's).
    John

     When i was in the market, and looking at Catalina's and O'Day's
    i thought the Catalina to be a much more comfortable boat ie. cabin.
    And for the money difference, my uneducated eye couldn't see any
    difference in quality.
     I've known people who (including myself) owned older O'day models
    and were very pleased with what they got for the money. But, i've
    asked a few people about the cost of thier new O'day's and i seem
    to get "too much" for an answer. Not a very scientific study, but...
     I've been on Catalina's, from the 22 through the 38 and each one
    really impressed me for the use of space and accommodations.
     Needless to say, I want a Catalina 30!!!!!

Re: .15  Catalina vs O'Day

I don't think there is much difference in price or quality, but respect for
class standards put Catalina and O'Day in different worlds. 

As you point out, O'Day has stopped making the 22 and is making a 222. They
also stopped making the Mariner and now make a 192. A few years ago they
stopped making the DS I and introduced the DS II. Last year they dropped the 
DS II and now make a O'Day 17 (see my note 365.6). I'm sure there are other 
examples.

By contrast, C22s made 15 years ago are competitive with boats made today.
Certain improvements have been made over the years, primarily in space
utilization, but it is still the same sailboat. In this size class, class
standards protect your investment and I want that protection. 

I'm a Catalina 22 owner.

- Bob

     Here are some of the sailboat listing from this week's Want ADvetiser
     for sailboats with asking prices below $10K. As one notices there
     is a wide variation in price for even the same model. This can
     be explained by the equipment that comes with it and how many illegal
     chemicals the owners took prior to running the ad;
     
     Aquarius 23'  ( ?? )       $7900
     Aquarius 23'  ( ?? )       $8500
     Aquarius 23'  (1974)       $4400

     Bristol 22'   ( ?? )       $7900
     Bristol 22'   (1971)       $7900
     Bristol 22'   (1974)       $9500
     Bristol 24'   (1969)       $9000
     
     Catalina 22'  (1980)       $7500
     Catalina 22'  (1981)       $9250
     Catalina 22'  (1982)       $7000
     Catalina 22'  (1982)       $9300
     
     Chrysler 22'  (1976)       $6000
     
     Columbia 22'  ( ?? )       $4000
     Columbia 22'  ( ?? )       $5500
      
     Coronado 23'  ( ?? )       $7300
     
     Essex 26'     (1975)       $9000
     
     Hunter 22'    (1981)       $8900
     Hunter 25'    (1976)       $9000
     
     Kells 22'     ( ?? )       $7000
     Kells 23'     ( ?? )       $4500
     Kells 23'     ( ?? )       $4500
     Kells 23'     ( ?? )       $4850
     Kells 23'     (1973)       $4500
     
     MacGregor 22' ( ?? )       $7200
     MacGregor 22' (1980)       $6000
     MacGregor 24' ( ?? )       $4000 This what it say's I don't believe
                                       they made a 24' - ed
     MacGregor 25' (1976)       $9300
     MacGregor 25' (1980)       $9000
     MacGregor 25' (1983)       $9000
     Macgregor 25' ( ?? )       $5990
     
     North American(1976)       $7800
     
     O'Day 22'     ( ?? )       $8500
     O'Day 22'     (1979)       $5900
     O'Day 23'     (1973)       $5900
     
     Paceship 23'  ( ?? )       $6500
     Paceship 23'  (1971)       $6500
     
     Rhodes 23'    ( ?? )       $5995
     
     Sea Sprite 23'(1965)       $4500
     
     Ventura 22'   ( ?? )       $4000
     
     Watkins 23'   ( ?? )       $6950

i might as well add my 2 cents worth too.

The Typhoon is an excellent daysilor/weekender. It has somewhat low freeboard 
and with children on board it's something to consider.

I have a Person Ariel 26' (1965) that i intend to sell this late fall for 
around $10k. Not that i'm sugesting you think about this one, but many used 
boats are very affordable and will offer you a little more room in exchange 
for a little less "newness" and even perhaps a little more maintainence.

The Ariel like the Typhoon and MANY other boats is the classic Carl Algerg 
design with full length keel with cutaway forfoot. They are great sailors, 
can keep up with a j-24 on a reach and are comfortable when going to 
windward, although you might pack an extra snack and beer or two for that.

At any rate the responses to this note should at least indicate there are 
as many opinions regarding the best boat as there are sailors! 

One of the most fun parts of buying a boat is shopping around. No one boat
will be everything you want. List the five most important attributes of
your boat and look around to find one that satisfies at least 2 or 3 of the 
requirements.

good luck, and watch out for lobster pots in Cape Porpoise !
paul