Conference unifix::sailing

You are to be commended for asking so many thoughtful questions. I will 
confine myself to one comment for the moment. Sailboats do depreciate, 
quite a lot. Sure, you hear stories of people selling their boats for a 
profit, but I am quite skeptical. A profit over the initial price, but 
that ignores the cost of added equipment. If you take a really hard look 
at what owning a sailboat costs, you may be appalled. 

I have the impression that our annual necessary expenses are rather less 
than average because our boat is on a mooring and we have no yacht club 
or launch expense. In 1983:

mooring		       $ 300	Marblehead Harbor
mooring permit		  32
excise tax		 185
insurance		 638	2% deductible, $500 000 liability
haul/launch		 411	including unstepping/stepping mast
truck to/from home	 420	about 40 miles each way
bottom paint		  75	
maintenance supplies	 250	estimated
sail washing & repairs	 130
launch service		   0	we rowed our dinghy
dinghy storage		   0	chained to town fence

total		       $2441

depreciation           $1700 

assuming a 10 year life for the following:

	estimated replacement cost:
	  mainsail, yankee, staysail	$3500
	  engine			 6000
	  electronics 
	    VHF				  500
	    loran			 1000
	    knotlog, ds, ws		  750
	  Awlgrip			 3200
	  standing rigging		 2000

total 1983 cost        $4100 (!) not including mortgage payments

The estimated depreciation is, if anything, low. I haven't had the
courage to estimate our annual expenses since 1983. I have decided that
I'd rather not know. Add to this some new equipment every year and the
total becomes even larger. This is for a 32' boat, by the way. 

Yes, buying a boat is a serious financial commitment, and you are wise 
to think so carefully about it.

But sailing is worth it!

Some responses (sailors have an abundance of advice).

1.1    A basic how-to-do-it book on the mechanics of sailing.  I read
       The ABC's of Sailing (cant remember the author) and learned 
       enough to get my first daysailer going and not up end it.

1.2    Another Opinion.  A reference for folks looking into specific
       boats.  It is a reader to reader service of Cruising World
       magazine.

1.3    No first hand experience with bareboat courses. People who have attended
       them paint glowing pictures. I have seen some of those same people run
       a charter boat full tilt into fixed docks so I am not sure if the course
       taught them how to handle a large boat, or provision it.

       A lot of charter outfits run cruising/bareboat schools which vary from
       a short checkout of your ability prior to setting out on one of their
       boats to full blown offshore boat handling and navigation courses.

2.1    I would never have taken MY parents overnite on our Seidelmann 25.
       I wont even take them overnite on our Tartan33.  My wife and I
       found the 25 big enough for daysails and occasional overnites with
       us and our son. We even went one weekend with another couple (to
       a marina).  We also vacationed every year on the boat and found that
       it was very enjoyable, once we shed our shoreside habits.

       When we moved from Connecticut to Rhode Island we found we were
       quickly tired of daysailing past the same places everyday, and the
       25 was too much hassle for overnighting every weekend (this lasted
       one summer and we bought the 33).  We have friends with 2 kids that
       moved from a 25 to 28 to get some space and after one season regret
       not looking closer to 34 feet. Most of our other aquaintenances who
       had 25 foot'rs ended up moving up after 3-4 years and typically went
       to the 30-36' range.

       We used to daysail 4-5 adults and 2-3 kids without a problem on the
       25.

2.2    Depends on your families attitude toward small places and cleaning
       everything aboard each week.  Washing all the clothes and linens,
       repacking the food and cooler, cleaning the portapottie and filling
       the water tank every weekend gets old after a while. Still we stayed
       with our 25 for 4 seasons all together.  

       My observation of the folks who only daysailed was that they didnt
       use their boat much mid to late season.  The ones who went away
       every or every other weekend seemed to find enough variety to
       keep it interesting.

2.3    I enjoyed long periods on the boat. I guess I began to demand less
       as time went on in a cruise.  My son got bored if we didnt do something
       new daily.  Sailing loses its appeal as an end unto itself fairly
       quickly for kids.

2.4    You are not likely to lose anything of your investment as long as 
       you take care of it and dont try to turn a Catalina into a Hinkley.
       Lots of expensive stuff wont make the boat more valuable in this
       range.

2.5    There is a note previous to yours asking about a smallboat show
       in Newport.  Might be interesting.  Most of the shows wont be
       untill fall. I think Newport is first (September I think).

2.6    I had a deep fin on the 25. Fast but a pain in the ass in the bay
       coves.  Our 33 has a Scheel and draws 4.5' .  Goes like hell too.

       A draft of under 5' is really a help in Narrangansett Bay. A 3'
       swing keel would be nice for some of the nicer anchorages that crowd
       up in the 8-10' water.
    
       I love my HOOD furling system, period.  Sometimes I wish I had self
       tailing winches myself, not enough to buy a set though.

       Depth sounder will keep you out of trouble occasionally in the bay.
       VHF is a good idea. Lowers insurance rates too (so does the depth
       sounder).  Noone should leave the dock without a good permanent
       compass (a backup hand held is a good idea too). Speed is up to you.
       Loran is not necessary in the bay, but it gets real foggy out toward
       Block and the Elizabeths', I believe Loran is worth the $600-800
       they get for them.

       We put safety netting between our lifeline and the toerail on our
       25. It may have been psychological, but we never lost anyone or
       anything over the side. Our son wore a life jacket anytime we
       were underway and he was on deck untill he was 10 and an able swimmer.
       We either don jackets or harnesses when it picks up or when only
       one person is on deck.

       We have always used a hard dingy, but inflatables are very good
       too. The Achilles line seems to be very a good value. An inflatable
       is better than swimming if its already inflated. You could probably
       rig some kind of CO2 emergency system if you keep the inflatable
       rolled up and stowed, they can take a long time to pump up with a
       foot pump.  Towing an inflatable is similar to towing a sea anchor
       which is why we bought a hard dingy to begin with. We also tried rowing
       both and felt the inflatable would be impossible to row into a stiff 
       chop to set a second anchor.

       The going rates in upper Narrangansett bay for summer slip is $30-$40
       per foot or between $750 and $1000.  Winter haulout and storage
       runs $12-$16 per foot plus power wash of the bottom (usually about
       $1 per foot). Mast stepping and winterizing is usually extra. A boat
       registered in Rhode Island will not pay any excise or property tax
       to Rhode Island, so if you keep it there year round you would pay
       no taxes beyond the sales tax.  Sails should go 10 years with normal
       care and maintenance, maybe longer, so they are no more an issue
       than engine maintenance and repowering.  The standing rigging may
       last 5-10 years on a boat this size and use depending on the rig
       itself. Catalina (and Hunter, and some others) puts rigging on 
       their boats which may need replacing (and upgrading) within 5 years.    
       
       Bottom painting is an annual chore unless you put one of the
       copolymers from International, Pettit, and Woolsey on instead.
       These last 2-3 seasons and cost twice as much to purchase. GRP
       (Glass Reinforced Plastic - or fiberglass) boats need compounding
       and waxing just like a car. I do mine upwards of 3 times a year,
       but I love a shiny boat. Teak can be treated several ways - the
       spring commissioning articles in the sail mags have good info on
       the alternatives - so I wont go into that here, anyway the annual
       material expense for the exterior teak on an average boat should 
       be around $10 or less.

       I have had all types of auxillary power and find the diesel inboard
       to be worth the extra investment when buying the boat. Outboards
       are dangerous, unreliable, and inneffective. Gas inboards are still
       the first 2.

3.1    My son loves the estuaries on Prudence, Hope and Commenicut islands
       in the bay.  The anchorages are great (Potters Cove unfortunatly
       comes alive with a disturbing form of aquatic wild life in the
       evenings on warm summer weekends - drunken power boaters). Most
       of these areas are 1-3 hours sail from marinas in the upper bay. I
       recommend you bring your own mooring system (a Danforth 18s is fine
       in the bottoms of the bay and will hold your 25 thru a hurricane).
       We have spent 3 years of weekends more or less in the confines of the 
       bay and still havent seen it all.

       The lower bay is riddled with old forts which are great to explore.
       My favorite is on Dutch Island. All of these have been absorbed by the
       Rhode Island park system and most can only be approached by boat so 
       there is no crowd. I recommend a book on the history of Narrangansett
       Bay , like Narrangansett Bay, A Friends Perspective. This will give you
       and the family a deeper sense of appreciation for this rich area.

       Walt

    I agree with Alan "sailing is worth it"
    
    To help you out I can tell you how I got into sailing and some
    of the desision I made.
    
    I've been sailing for about 20 years.  For 12 of those years I sailed
    my father boat (23' wooden).  First wooden boats are a LOT of work.
    
    Purchased my own boat in 1977, a 12 foot fiberglass beetle.  A great
    boat, trailerable and a lot of fun.  Next was a 16 foot day sailer,
    also a lot of fun and trailerable, however she went over on me in
    October off of Rye N.H. I spent 2.5 hours on her upside down befor
    the Coast Guard came.  Lesson 2, If possible get a boat with lead
    in her keel.  My third boat was a 20 foot O'day, also trailerable
    but not much room.  I now have a 25 foot Lancer, more roon in the
    cabin, good for overnight (wife, and daughter, she's 7 and loves
    the boat).  I've been to Cuttyhunk and Block Island, nice sandy
    beaches, real relaxing.
    
    As far as cost, I've sold three boats, I to am skeptical about turning
    a profit.  But if you think about the money it takes away from the
    joy of it.
    
    As for bare boat charter, at Bends boat Basin in Newport, he gives
    a weekend course that is supose to make you eligible for bare boat
    chartering one of his boats.  The sizes run from 28 foot Pearson,
    to some where in the 40 foot range.  If interested let me know,
    I'll be glad to put you in touch with him.
    
    Sorry for the spelling error.  
    
    
    Enjoy,
    
    Tom
    
    

    There will be a Used Boat Show in Newport the last weekend in May,
    (29th-31st). Its an in-the-water affair and the prices are ususlly
    quite good. I bought my current boat there 6 years ago and am going
    back this year to try to sell her.
    
    Opinion: 1 person/10' boat for long-ish periods (1 week+).
    	     Stay away from swing keels and pop-tops
    	     Wood is good (if you like to work in wood)..
    	     Don't worry about the costs. You'll find a way...
    	     
    
    Enjoy and fair-winds-and-tides, Ed

    I always knew smart motorboaters would come to their senses eventually
    (sorry..)
    
    
    From my experience the Regatta point sailing classes give you a
    good education in the basics but do not prepare you for big boat
    cruising.  They do however get you used to handling lines and sails,
    jibing, beating, etc. Those things don't change in concept so the
    courses are still worth taking as a starter. Sailing with larger
    boats at other schools or with friends is a good next step.
    
    Things do happen slower on big boats, but with much, much more
    force.  You do not have winches, travellers, and jiffy
    reefing on 14' O'Day javelins. The increased sail area, mass in
    motion and plethora of lines necessitate such inventions.
    Theres not much wind on Lake Q compared with south of Newport, off 
    Marblehead, or southern Conn so bear that in mind. Its amazing how
    small a "big" boat can feel when your in 10ft seas.
    
    I found our daysailor to be a lot of fun, and the principles were 
    basically the same, but they get applied in a slightly different manner.
    
    Rick                                               
    
    * Regarding costs... Alans figures are quite close
          
    
    
    

  Great note! I'd like to answer it in detail but haven't the time.
  Additional suggested reading: Practical Sailor and Better Boat.
  I will loan you mine (three 3" binders worth) but you'd have
  to arrange to pick up. Too risky to send through our mail. I
  agree with most everything said so far, especially Alan's financial
  estimates, with one exception. Some boats have appreciated, or
  at least tracked inflationary times, but they are rare. I read
  an analysis of this subject once and the list included Hinckley,
  Swan, Sabre and a couple of others.
  
  Many of us have gone through the same series of questions you have.
  In my case I had sailed for a number of seasons on a friend's
  Bristol 30 in Buzzards Bay and followed that up with a course
  with Coastal Sailing in Marblehead and some Coast Guard courses
  (more than just their into). I was very nervous about buying
  a boat and then finding out that it was either a passing fad
  or the family wouldn't REALLY aclimate. I went through all the
  steps to figure out which 25 footer I wanted (Catalina, Hunter,
  et al) and soon realized that if things went bad I was going
  to lose my shirt. Pretty soon I decides that a used
  Sabre 28 was much safer, not only as a boat but as an investment.
  The rest is history. I never found just the right 28' after a
  year of looking but wound up with a year old 30'. Previous owner
  lost money on this transaction but you can't sell a new boat
  so soon and recoup everything. Three years later it was a Sabre
  34' and now one year later a 38'. I made money each time only
  if I compare the original price plus added equipment to the sale
  price. No way it'll cover annual operating expenses or my labor.
  The ONLY way to justify owning a boat is by placing a value on
  the joy you get out of 'messin about on boats' as the saying
  goes. If I stuck my money in the bank the interest would pay
  for an awful lot of chartering - and I wouldn't have to paint
  the bottom.
  
  John

To amplify my remarks on the cost of ownership: Yes, when inflation 
rates were high and new boat prices were increasing even more rapidly, 
you could sell a used boat for more than you paid for it. Today, with 
the glut of used boats on the market, it is virtually impossible to sell 
any boat for more than you paid for it. The asking price for used boats 
has dropped considerably in the last year, and there was an article in 
either SAIL or CRUISING WORLD by a broker who feels that the average 
asking price is 30% too high.

Be sure you feel comfortable with the costs of owning a boat. If the 
boat is a financial burden, you will not be happy with any boat. My cost 
estimates in .1 are probably somewhat below average ($300 for a mooring 
is hard to beat) and there is always the tendency to buy additional 
equipment every year. I would suggest that your first boat be one you 
can easily affort. You should foolishly (like me and probably other 
contributors to these NOTES) buy a boat you can barely afford only after 
you and your family become sailing fanatics.

    I had sailed for over 20 years on small boats before moving to
    Massachusetts where I was fortunate to find a friend with an ocean going
    vessel.   The first summer I took a course at the Coastal Sailing
    School in Marblehead, and in the fall the US Power Squadron's Basic
    Sailing class.  Both were very good and they increased my confidence
    substantially.  The following summer I took a week long advanced
    sailing course at the Boston Sailing Center.  I encourage you to
    take their basic course or the basic course at the Boston Harbor
    Club.  I also strongly encourage you to concentrate on learning
    to navigate.  Even though you may sail in the "protected" waters
    of Narraganset Bay I know that there are many hazards to avoid both
    in, under, and on the water not to mention fog to contend with.
    Sailing on the ocean without any navigation training is asking for
    trouble.
    
    I also had the opportunity to learn what owning a boat would consist
    of before purchasing my Freedom 32 in 1984.  It's hard work.  I
    happen to enjoy it so and accept it as part of being a boat owner.
    But as others have mentioned, it is expensive and it can be difficult
    at times - I'm bruised all over from installing an anti-syphoning
    valve for the engine cooling system after the previous one decided
    to give out this weekend.
    
    Before I bought my boat I had the opportunity to sail a variety
    of boats and made lots of lists of things that I wanted to have
    on the boat.  Once I had the lists of required and optional equipment
    I began scouring the catalogs to determine the cost of all of the
    stuff.  It adds up fast! 
    
    I guess what it comes down to in my opinion is taking the time to
    gain some sailing experience on boats in the size range you think
    you can afford.  It is expensive and boats are not that easy to
    sell these days.
    
    The bareboat charter company at Bend Boat Basin (Rt 114 between
    Portsmouth and Newport) is run by Bing Murray.  He's a jolly guy
    but I can't imagine teaching anyone everything they need to know
    to take out a 28' boat in a 2 day course.  He does have a nice array
    of boats however and has a lot of experience.  I know that I'd want
    to have some additional experience before charting someone else's
    boat.
    
    Good luck,
    Pam

Forget all the nonsense that has been said up til now. Rush down to your 
local, friendly Pearson Yachts dealer.


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This advertisement in the May 1986 SAIL has to be a leading contender for 
the most misleading and sleazy marine advertisement of 1986. There is 
simply no way to learn more than the barest rudiments of sailing in two 
days. At worst, you'll learn just enough to get yourself into really 
serious trouble. 

    Isnt Pearson the one who was promoting a leaseback deal by misleading
    people into believing there were all kinds of tax loopholes that
    would pay for the boat ?  
    
    Walt