Conference unifix::sailing

A survey is always a good idea. However, the cost of the survey might be 
rather high compared to the asking price of the boat. For a not too 
expensive small boat an inspection by a knowledgeable non-professional 
(not the seller and not the broker if any) might well suffice.

I think Practical Sailor published a guide to buying a used boat and may 
have reviewed the Catalina 22. I'll look.

There are many, many things to be aware of in looking at a used boat. I
would certainly expect to see the boat rigged -- this would make
inspecting the standing and running rigging much easier. Check the sails 
carefully for chafe and tears.

I would also inspect the centerboard and trunk or swing keel (I don't 
recall which) carefully for evidence of any damage from grounding. 
Any repairs needed will likely be difficult and expensive.

How old is the outboard engine? If more than a very few years old and if
the boat has been used in salt water, the engine may not be in very good
condition. As inexperienced sailors, you will be more dependent on the
engine than an experienced sailor would be. 

The trailer wheel bearings are likely to need replacement (they usually 
do), particularly if the boat has been launched in salt water.

There is no fixed percentage under the asking price that you should 
offer. It really depends on how realistic the asking price is (compared 
to the asking price for other Catalina 22s), the overall condition of 
the boat, the extra equipment, the age of the boat, and so forth. You
might offer the asking price, or you might offer only half. And yes, it 
is a buyer's market. 

Since you are still in the 'might like sailing' stage, have you 
considered joining a sailing club or renting boats for a while? The 
investment is less and the financial pain less should you decide that 
sailing is not for you. Have you taken sailing lessons on a similar size 
boat? (We learned to sail on a Pearson 30 -- the most expensive education 
I've ever had!)

Good luck,

Alan

    Surveys are a good idea, but it depends on the price of the boat.
    If you finance, quite often the company requires a survey and a
    copy of the report for their files.  Doesn't sound like the case
    here.   
    
      On the other hand, given the hurricane last fall, there are
    bound to be some people unloading damaged boats this spring. I've
    noticed an awful lot of "AS IS" classifieds lately.  I'd
    be extra careful and have someone knowledgeable look over the boat.
    Be particularly careful to look for new fiberglass work or other
    evidence of repair.  This is not necessarily bad, since boats can
    be made better than new in some cases, but the truth is always nice
    to hear.  Ask where it was during the storm, and how it came through.
    If repairs were made, check them out.  It is a buyers market, and
    there are plenty of boats around in that size. 
    
    Used boats can vary widely in price depending on the make, the
    condition of the boat, and the equipment you will get with it. 
    Be sure you know what will be on the boat when you pick it up, no
    just what you see when you look at it.   Little things like life
    jackets, ropes, fire extinguishers, blocks, and cushions add up
    when you have to buy them all at once.  Look in the newspaper to
    get a rough idea of high and low end prices.  If you buy from a
    dealer you can sometimes get them to throw some things in as part
    of the deal (like bottom paint) which can save a little.
    
    Good luck.                              
    
    Rick                                                    

    I'll second Alan's comments, especially those on getting into a sailing
    club or renting/chartering boats before buying. You might check with
    large dealers/brokers in your area to see what they have to offer. Boat
    management can be a rather large resource (both time and money)
    consumer and if you don't love it.... 
    
    As for prices, you can get a pretty good range of used boat prices in
    Soundings (covers New England and other parts of the East Coast)  or
    New England Offshore (covers New England area) . These are monthly
    newspapers that can be found at respectable newstands. Other regions
    must have similar papers.
    
    A survey isn't a bad idea. You may need it anyway to get insurance,
    depending on the age of the boat. 
    
    Good luck,
    
    Ed
     

  Tell me the model year of the boat and I can provide you with
  price information from my BUC reference book. (See old note on
  BUC prices)
  
  In general the market is highly in the buyers favor. However,
  right now I've got a BIG smile as I apparently sold my Sabre
  34 last night for a good profit after owning it for just a year.
  Of course I'm an old expert at "the check is in the mail" story
  and will withold final joy 'til I see it. Sold without commission
  thru Sabre dealer and should have new Sabre 38 in a couple of
  months.
  John_R

    I swore to my husband that I did not pay Alan and Ed to make the
    comments about sailing clubs and rentals.  This has been my (cautious)
    position all along, but Dick (impulsive) 'knows' he and I are going to 
    love sailing and figures that buying a boat saves him those expenses/ 
    gives him greater flexibility.  He is already talking about the 'next' 
    boat!
    
    Thanks for the comments about surveying.  We will not be financing
    the boat ($7-10K range) so won't have to have one for the bank.  But
    regarding Ed's comment on insurance, should we look into insurance
    before we look into a boat as the determining factor on a survey?
    
    Assuming the inspection is by a knowledgeable sailing friend
    who may not have done this before, would we do a land and a water
    inspection?  I ask this because of accessing the swing keel on
    a trailered boat.
    
    We thought about Gloria, then figured that since the 22 is a 
    trailered boat this would not be a big issue;  right, wrong?
                                           
    RE .4
    
    We have four prospects in two model years:  1981 and 1982.  We 
    thought we should stay in the early eighties since it might be 
    difficult for us to sell a mid/late seventies model when it is 
    our time to move on.
                
    Mary

    As I see it you are sort of in a catch 22 situation.  Since you
    dont have much experience yet, an on the water test of the boat
    wont tell you much (except the obvious - does it float) about
    the boats performance.  If you dont test it, you may very get
    a black sheep (I wont use lemon or dog here).
    
    A professional survey cannot hurt but as pointed out may be expensive
    relative to the boats value.  Prospective owners can do much themselves
    to minimize the risk of paying more than a boat is worth, but some
    of this requires some on the water experience.  Sails and outboards
    are good examples of items that can run you $1000 each to replace
    but which are difficult to judge unless you know what you are doing. 
    
    If you go ahead with the purchase route (vs. rental/lessons/charters)
    first time around, I would say that you should have an experienced
    aquaintance accompany you for an inspection on the trailer. I would also
    make a purchase contingent upon a successful on the water demo.
    An experienced aquaintance should also accompany you and the owner. That
    way you can see how the boat is rigged at the launch as well as
    whether things function under sail and power. Hope for a breezy
    day, that way you can tell what kind of shape the sails hold, how
    the boat balances and points in a chop, and whether the outboard
    lower unit stays submerged when powering thru a chop to windward.
    
    I dont remember you saying whether or not you are new to boating
    in general or just sailing.  If you havent already taken them I
    strongly urge you and your husband to take either the Power Squadron
    or Coast Guard Auxilary boating safety courses. This will reduce
    your insurance premium and give you some basic knowlege to help
    avoid dangerous situations.
    
    Good Luck,
    Walt

    re insurance:
    Talk to your agent and see what you'll need. The cost of a survey
    will be a minimum of somewhere's around $200 and it may be a good
    selling tool when you're looking for the "next boat". 
 
    Also, check the index for comments on the Cataliuna 22. There was
    some stuff on it a year or so ago. 
    
    Ed

    I'd second the contingent sale based on an on-water demo.  I'd also
    second the C/G courses.  The Sailing and Seamanship, Piloting, and
    Advanced Piloting courses are all first rate.
    
    A lot of the surveyors charge by the foot, so $200 is probably a bit high
    for a 22 footer.  Check around, but it seems like a knowledgeable
    sailor might be better than hiring Giffy Full for a daysailer (kind
    of like having Casper Weinberger in charge of DEC security..).
    
    If the boat is trailerable, make sure your vehicle can handle the
    towing weight.  Small 4 cyl engines might not be too happy about
    towing a 22 footer uphill (probably already considered).
    
    Rick
    
    

  BUC Prices:
                                         RANGE
  '84 Catalina 22  PopTop   Keel    $10,400 - $11,800
    "   "           "       Swing     9,850 -  11,300 
  '83   "           "         "       7,400 -   8,500
    "   "          Std Deck Keel      7,750 -   8,900
    "   "           "       Swing     7,400 -   8,500
  '82   "          PopTop   Keel      7,300 -   8,400
    "   "           "       Swing     6,950 -   8,000
    "   "          Std Deck Keel      7,300 -   8,400
    "   "           "       Swing     6,900 -   8,000
  '81   "           "       Keel      6,850 -   7,900
    "   "           "       Swing     6,550 -   7,550
  
  I can get you trailer and outboard prices when you get specific
  on a configuration. These price ranges can be modified upwards
  and downward depending on condition, extra equipment and market
  demand. For example BUC suggests an increase of 10%-20% for above
  average care and additional electronic gear, not appropriate
  in your case, but could be applied to unusual gear of any type.
  On the other hand they suggest a similar decrease if the boat
  requires (is lacking) the usual maintenance required for sale.
  Whatever that means, I'm not sure.
  
  Anyway, if your husband remains convinced that buying is the
  right thing to do, don't be bashful about making your first offer
  insulting-ly low. I'm often amazed when I hear the gap between
  asking and selling prices of boats.
  
  John

    To expand this discussion a little, I'd like opinions regarding
    the purchase of larger boats (26' and up).  Particularly, do you
    prefer buying a boat that is in the yard, so you can see her
    undersides, or one that is afloat, so you can take her for a trail
    sail?  If you were interested in buying a boat that is in the water,
    would you pay a yard to haul her for a couple of hours to look below
    the water line?  What do surveyors prefer?

A proper survey requires that the boat be hauled. This is necessary to 
inspect the keel, propeller shaft, shaft bearing, and hull (among other 
things). The buyer normally pays all of the expenses of a survey -- this 
would include hauling if the boat is afloat. Normally also, a trial sail 
is only done after an offer is made. The offer can and should be subject 
to survey. If the boat is in a yard and you insisted on a sea trial, you 
would have to pay to have the boat launched (assuming the owner isn't
launching the boat for the summer), rigged, and then hauled again.
Expensive. If I were selling my boat and a potential buyer wanted a test
sail, I would expect to be paid ($100 at least) for my time and trouble,
the payment being deductible from the purchase price. Otherwise, how do
I distinguish serious potential buyers from someone looking for a free
sail? I also have some question as to the value of a sea trial. What do
you really learn about a boat on a brief sail in good weather? We sailed
for a couple of hours on a Valiant 32 in light air before we bought one.
The test sail did not reveal the one major flaw in the boat -- a
somewhat excessive weather helm. Better to talk to an owner (other than
the seller if possible) about the boat and its characteristics. You, as
the potential buyer paying for the survey, own the survey report. If you
decide not to buy the boat, you may be able to sell the survey to the
seller. In any event, you wouldn't give the seller the survey. 

  re: .10
  In the water is much better. You can sail and check out equipment
  operation (engine, electronics, etc), observe trim/balance and
  all sorts of other things. You would then definitely haul for
  survey. Usually just keeping the boat on the lift for an hour
  or two. If a surveyor doesn't get to see a boat both ways you'll
  wind up with a lot of disclaimers.

  John

    re: value of test sail
    
    I believe the advantage of an on the water sail has little to do
    with whether a prospective buyer is interested in a class of boat
    - such as the Catalina 22 or the mentioned Valiant 32.  Things like
    severe weather helm, stiff vs. tender, etc. are more a function
    of a boats design and not so much unique to an individual hull #.
    While weather helm can be affected by mast rake and main trim, the
    chief influence is where the centers of effort and resistance locate
    under varying conditions. This is primarily a function of design.
    The decision to look at a class of boat should be made with as many
    inputs as possible (the closer to firsthand the info is the better)
    but one short sail will not likely tell a novice sailor whether
    this class of boat is for them. Articles and other owners opinions
    are invaluable here.
    
    The on the water sail will give you some firsthand information about
    the condition of the items that just cannot be observed shoreside.
    Sails is a good example. Only very few people can predict that
    the cut of a sail is correct when hanging dockside. Outboards are
    famous for working like a charm in a tank and then being contrary
    while hanging on the stern.  Neither of these is a function of the 
    boats design as much as the current/previous owners choice of 
    products and installation/care.
    
    
    re: larger boat test sails

    The decision to test sail a larger yacht is not so simple. The expense
    of commissioning may exceed the cost of having all critical systems 
    not well covered in a survey (such as the sail inventory) evaluated 
    at a loft.  If a boat were in the water, I certainly would insist
    on having it hauled for inspection by the surveyer and a demo sail
    be included in the sales agreement. But one that is decommisioned?
    That would depend on a lot of circumstances that boil down to: What
    is the most inexpensive way to make me feel comfortable that I am
    getting my moneys worth ?
    
    Walt
 
    

    I just bought a small (21 1/2 foot) power boat (lobster) that was
    11 years old.  I was told that I would need to have it surveyed
    as both banks and insurance companies would require it.  Not so.
     Because it was fiberglass (i was told)
    
    I had it surveyed anyways at a cost of $242 (boat cost $7500). 
    The surveyor goes overthing you can think of.  Mine found only six
    points that I needed to be made aware of, i.e. oil in the drip pan
    beneath engine (fire hazard), wire to the compass had an improper
    splice (fire hazard), small split (1 inch) in the fiberglass covering
    on the wood cabin top (epoxied and painted) etc.
    
    As you can see, not much wrong.  However, I now have peace of mind
    as to the condition of this 11 year old boat.
    
    
    The boat had one accident five years ago.  Seems the owner did not
    know too much about anchoring, and one noght he dropped anchor in
    10 feet of water off from his friends cottage.  He went ashore for
    the night.  Next morning, no boat.  Seems he only had 25 feet of
    rode and the boat dragged anchor.  Six hours later they found the
    boat partly sunk on a rocky shore off Isleboro maine with a 1 x
    1 1/2 foot hole in the starboard quarter and the outdrive and mounting
    brackets several feet away.
    
    Boat hull was repaired with new and thicker fiberglass and has never
    leaked.  In fact, you can hardly tell where the hole was.  The outdrive
    was repaired and has never given any problems.
    
    The owner was well off and would only use the boat on his vacation.
    The engine has logged only 240 hours in 11 years.  I have the log
    book and maintenance records for the entire 11 years.  Even though
    the boat was in prime condition, I ma still glad that I went to
    the expense of a survey.
    
    Paul

    Is is accepted or necessary to give a prospective buyer a 1-2hr
    sailing trial??
    
    They have requested it, and I, frankly don't want to do it??

re .15:

If the prospective buyer has not made a firm offer, then I wouldn't take 
him/her sailing. Normally, an offer is subject to a survey and a sea
trial. Once a firm offer has been made, then a test sail would be 
appropriate. Moreover, given the weakness of the market, why risk the 
buyer walking away?

Alan

    I wanted to reply right after this note was posted. Alas we had the
    write-lock problem for a while. (My condolences Alan.)
    
    Agreed that there must be some sort of qualification process that
    goes on in the mind of a seller that the buyer is really a "live one".
    But to refuse a test sail to a legitimate buyer borders on lunacy.
    
    The Seller's Market must be extraordinary wherever you are located.
    
    JR

    In Seattle, it is usually customary to have a written offer signed and
    sealed before a water trial. The offer is usually conditioned on your
    (the buyer's) acceptance subject to sea trial, engine survey, hull
    survey, in that order. This keeps the looky-loos from enjoying people's
    boats for an afternoon without being serious. If you don't like the way
    it rides or something, you (the buyer) can back out. If I were selling
    my boat, there is no way I would do a sea trial unless there was an
    agreed upon deal on the table.

    If you let "don't like the way it rides" or other such non-specific
    faults be criteria for backing out of the deal, you might as well not
    bother getting an offer on the table.  Anyone intending to joyride
    on your nickel will find a reason why they don't like the ride.
    
    On the other hand, writing an offer contingent on only very specific
    and limited reasons for rejection ("buyer may withdraw from this
    agreement if boat sinks during sea trial...."  :-) is equally
    unrealistic.
    

    Let me clarify the situation.
    
    The person wanting the free ride, as one of you put it, has cancelled
    appointments twice to see the boat.
    
    There is NO written offer or signed agreement as yet.  No survey has
    been done.
    
    I see him as a "looker" wanting a free afternoon sail.  When and if 
    all of the above has been completed, I might be more willing.  Altho,
    the thought of a possible, trip over lines, rough seas, etc. does make
    me nervous.  Yes, we have insurance.
    
    re: .17	
    	Market extraordinary in our location.  Be real!
    

    Now that you've added detail that makes it clearer that your buyer
    is possibly not legitimate or of questionable quality, obviously
    the subject of a test sail is open to debate.
    
    Your original question gave no hint of these circumstances, to me
    at least, and gave the impression that the concept of a test sail
    was an unheard of, foreign, or unreasonable demand that you were
    rejecting out of hand. 
    
    Which is why my comment about your apparently extraordinary market
    conditions was maybe a little too subtle for you.
    
    In the past ten years I have sold four boats. All told, I've taken
    maybe 6 or 7 "buyers" out on test sails. Only one time did the
    test sailor actually buy the boat. And in that particular case 
    nothing at all had been finalized. No signed agreements, no deposit,
    no handshake on the sale price, nothing! 
    
    Only you can decide if it's worth it. What's the market? How bad do
    you want to sell?
    
    Look at it this way: What's the worst thing that can happen? He doesn't
    buy the boat. So what! You still got to go sailing for a few hours.
    That's what you had the thing for in the first place. What have you
    lost?
    
    JR

    John -
    
    Got to like your selling skills and putting it in perspective......
    
    R