Conference unifix::sailing

    I have my Wavelength  24 insured with AMICA. I just mailed in my
    premium last week. There was no change from last years rate, and
    I recieved a 25% dividend/refund on last years premium. They(AMICA)
    have not informed me of any policy changes.
        Don MacKinnon
    

     I also just paid my premium, which was about 2% the value of the
    boat. Being my first insured boat i don't know if this is higher
    then last year or not but i can't really complain (compared to my
    auto insurance)

    I've had my Chrysler 26 insured with Boat U.S. for three years now.
    This year it went from $300 to $345.  That's the only increase I've
    seen.  The reasons given were the increased cost of liability cases
    and the losses suffered from last years hurricanes.  
    
    Boat U.S. said that the increase was less than many other companies
    because members have fewer claims.  Apparently, the newsletters
    that they send out to the membership help, and people were better
    prepared for the storms.
    
    	Wayne

  I don't renew until June so I don't know what to expect. I know
  that my company, Royal, is dropping sailboats above $100K. The
  company rep told me that last fall as we watched my boat being
  helicoptered off the salt marsh in Marion. I wish I owned a boat
  large enough to have such a problem. Royal made this decision
  prior to their hurricne losses so I don't know if they're going
  to take further action.
  
  RE: .3
  
  If you're happy with BOAT/US then stay put, but I'll bet you're
  not getting the most competetive rates. After several years of
  high quotes from them they finally admitted to me that they just
  didn't have an insured base large enough in New England waters
  to compete with the companies that concentrate here. They felt
  that in the mid-Atlantic and Southern waters they were more 
  competetive.  I don't have my records handy but $345 for your
  boat seems high to me. I'm paying some where in the mid $500's
  for a $70K policy with a 1% deductible. I think we had a
  conversation about this in an old note somewhere.
  
  Royal, by the way, was extremely prompt and fair with my claim.
  I can't say enough good things about them.  Al Blackadar (Plaistow
  NH) is the agent.

    Sorry John, Royal just hiked my rates over $150. 
    
    They have been pretty good so far, but I haven't yet settled.  They 
    were pretty good about giving me an advance to get things going.
    
    One point.  The adjustor is in Boston, but they hire local surveyors
    to keep you honest (RI).  The local yokel in my area (Dick Learned, out
    of Wickford) didn't even let me know when he was going to survey
    the damage. He wrote up his own, which was of course megabucks off
    the real cost. The end results was that I had to do a lot of letter
    writing and justifying of expenses.  He was never in when I tried
    to call either. I was so disgusted with this clown (as were others)
    that I finally told Royal I was dealing with them alone, and
    not the surveyor.  He feels no obligation to customer service and
    was not doing a good job.  Since then things have been fine.  I'm
    sure its different when the surveyor is competent and fair.
    
    Like the man said, I can't complain when I compare it to car insurance.
    
    Rick
                                                               

  My surveyor was very helpful. Even to the point of suggesting
  expenses that I had no idea could be covered. Several times he
  prefaced suggestions with: 'Now don't tell Royal I told you this,
  but....'
  Two days after I sent him the helicopter bill I received
  verification that a check had been sent to the yard along with a
  $900 advance to haul/unstep and prepare the boat for survey.
  It took a couple of months before I confirmed that all my repair
  estimates were less than the surveyor estimates and I agreed
  to a final figure with the Royal people in Boston. Again, the
  check arrived in a couple of days. They even gave me a letter
  stating that if there were any unexpected costs related to the
  replacement of my rudder when the boat returns to Marion that
  they would cover the charges. The rudder replacement is one of
  the few items that I didn't want to tackle myself. They paid
  me $2900 to repair the scratches in the bottom  and I'm doing
  that myself for about $400. Completely stripped bottom, refaired,
  and using Interprotect 2000 and Micron 33. Of course if I figured
  my time to be worth a buck an hour I'm still probably losing
  money on the deal.
  
  I'll give Blackadar a call and see what they think my new rate
  will be.                
  

We had a large, though indirect, increase in our insurance premium
(INA/MOAC) last May. Our cruising limits were reduced (New Brunswick and
Nova Scotia, previously no extra cost, became an additional $100), and
our hull valuation was also reduced somewhat. The premium surcharge for
chartering went from $45 per week to $100 per week (which indicates that
charterers are less than competent and careful). In effect, the increase
was around 30%. Our agent also implied that our rate was a little higher
because we keep our boat in (very crowded) Marblehead. 

The difference in premium between a 1% deductible and a 2% deductible
was substantial, something on the order of $100 as I recall. We decided
that a 2% deductible on the hull insurance made the most sense, but, for
an extra premium, we have only a $100 deductible on our liferaft and Avon
Redcrest inflatable dinghy. These are the two most likely to be stolen
items on the boat. 

We are awaiting this year's premium notice with some dread.

    I've also noticed some new wording in my slip contract for the year.
    It states that the marina will inform insurance companies of any
    boat which they feel was not properly secured/prepared/readied for
    something like Gloria, and will hold boat owners responsible for
    any damage to marina property that may result.
    
    There were quite a few instances of people just walking to their
    boat, picking up a VHF or LORAN to cover their deductable and walking
    away.  Others obviously just didn't bother adding more lines, or
    stripping the boat. 
    
    Check the fine print on this years contracts.  The wording has some
    new gotchas..
    
    Rick                

    For related topic, see note 79.
    
    When the MOAC increase/minimum notice came through, i found from
    my agent (Rolins, Burdick, Hunter in Boston) that sailboats and
    maybe power too, can be insured under a "smallcraft" policy if they
    are less than 26'. The rate for me (26' Ariel) is ~2% or so.
    
    Maybe the large increases are for the over-26' class.
    
    paul

    Re: .9
    
    The crusing world article implied that insurance companies were
    insuring anyone who could get financed and anthing that reportedly
    floated during the past few years when inflation was so high that
    their investments netted more from the money collected from policy
    holders than the companies had to pay out.    Since investment
    returns have moderated the companies have realized that they are
    now paying out more than the policy prices and investments of that
    money returns.   It appears their first reaction is to cancel 
    everyone they can and raise the remainders rates to get back the
    losses thru bad risks and natural disturbances of the last couple
    years.   The categories they seem to be using to assess risk include
    (from memory - there are probably others):  age of boat (over 10
    years is a nono), construction (GRP - OK, wood - risky), Power vs.
    sail, gasoline vs. diesel, boat value (a lot of companies will no
    longer write policies for over $100K), boat location (mainly having
    to due with probability of major storms), boat use (chartering will
    no longer be allowed by come companies at any price), experience
    of skipper, and previous claims.
    
    These categories are not necessarily new. What is new is that the
    price penalty for being on the risky side could cause you to be
    turned down, your rates could skyrocket, or your use of the boat
    restricted more than ever.
    
    On one end we have the $200K, wood, gasoline power boat, used for
    offshore chartering in the Gulf of Mexico by a rank amateur, who 
    has dozens of claims to his credit.
       
    On the other, we have an inexpensive, steel hull, unpowered but
    fully instrumented sail boat, used on lake Winnepisake by a skipper 
    with 50 claim free years of experience. 
    
    The difference used to be a few bucks a year in rate. It would seem
    now that the difference will be, the power boat will get no insurance
    and the sail rate will go up to allow the insurence company to get
    back what they lost on the power boat in the last few years.
    
    I can think of another form of insurance that is in the news and
    has a similar pattern.  
               .... Any OB/GYN's out there with old power boats ?  ;^}
    
    Walt
    

    FRAUD??
    
    Over a year ago, I ordered insurance over the phone from Eldridge
    McGinnis in Hingham.  A week later, a policy application came in
    the mail and I promptly filled it out and sent a check off to to
    whatever company the underwriter pushed.  And off I sailed all summer
    long.  When Gloria showed up, I realized that I had never received
    any formal policy and made a quick call before the storm to Eldridge
    McGinnis.  They assured me, "not to worry, the company's just a
    little slow."  The months have rolled by and still no policy and
    no request for a renewal.  I've since gone with another company,
    but I've come to ask myself whether or not I was every really insured
    at all....
    
    Has anyone else ever had a like experience with an insurance co.?
    
    Bob

    I've been with Eldirdge M for six years and they have always been
    first rate. Do you deal with AnnaMarie McGinnis directly? You might
    try that..
    Ed

    I just got my insurance bill from INA/AETNA, it went from $191 to
    $402 a stiff 210% increase.  I call John Alden and asked Nancy why.
    Her comment were because my boat is over 10 years old.
    
    Next I called a guy by the name of Dave at National Marine
    Underwriter's he quoted me a price of $183 with better coverage.
    
    If anybody is interested the address is:
    
    National Marine Underwriters
    Annapolis City Marina
    410 Severn Ave, Suite 207 
    Annapolis, Maryland 
    
    Phone  1-800-262-8467
    
    
    PS  I hope this isn't one of those cases of "to good to be true"
        IE won't pay claims   
                              
    
    Tom
    

    One of the boats damaged in our marina was insured by a similar
    sounding name outfit.  Boy did the owner have trouble collecting
    (the company said they would not process the claim untill the boat
    was repaired - under a small print clause that said "It is the
    responsibility of the owner to make the vessle seaworthy...").
    
    I will check with him on the name to be sure.
    
    Walt 

re .13

We received our 1986 insurance bill from INA today. The premium 
increased by less than 2% over last year's. However, our cruising limits 
were reduced to Eastport to Cape May from Eastport to Morehead City and 
the insured value of our Avon dinghy reduced to $750. Our agent is John 
Alden. We are happy.

    I am a new boater (non-sail) and just purchased a 21 1/2 foot Repco
    Lobster boat that is 11 years old.  This is my first boat and I
    have just completed the USCG Aux boating course.  I took out insurance
    with All State and with $200 deductable, the cost was $197.  Now
    that I have completed the course there will be an additional 10%
    discount and because I completed a USPS course a few years ago I
    will receive an additional 5% discount. 
    
    I hope you don't mind a stinkpotter jumping in here, but there isn't
    a boater file.
    
    Regards Paul
    

    I'm not sure if my experience has been typical, but I have just
    dropped Metropolitan as my boating insurance company.
    
    They stumbled miserably in trying to settle a $175 claim...which
    is still pending after an August loss.  To top that off, I just
    bought a new (for me) 27' boat and they wanted $490 for the policy.
    Because of my disapointment with their claim service, I began shopping
    arround for a new company.  I called several advertisers in SOUNDINGS
    and asked fellow boat owners in Marlboro about their choice in
    insurers.  The net result is that I have had a police written by
    OCEAN UNDERWRITERS (Cocoa,FL) for equivalent coverage for $324.
    They have a very simple-to-read policy and insure sailboats only
    (no power). 
    
    Is their claims service any better tahn Metropolitan? ...it couldn't
    be any worse.
    
     

    Boy ! what a shock I just got from my boat insurance
    A week ago, I received my boat renewal policy for the amount of $ 50,000
    insurance with 1% deductible,with waiver of depreciation and Jamestown
    RI as home port.Total premium $ 651.00. No losses for the 5 years I am
    insured with that same company.
    Because this year I changed locality from RI to Mass. I just called
    them to change the home port on the policy(Should have called them 
    before I moved the boat) Well, people living in this state probably
    can guess what happens next.... The amount of premium jumps to $ 1,029
    for the same coverage because insurance companies pay, almost, double
    claims in this state I was told. The company I insure is NMU.
    How the whole thing sounds? Are people pay that much? Are there
    any other insurers I can do better,even if I have the boat serveyed?
    Got to go...and get a couple Tylenol for my headache. I don't even
    like my new home port.     

Mike, 

I have been with BOAT US for four years. 

We had a claim first year. and did not get the 10% discount the next year.

I have had great service and Boat is insured at agreed value  - base on 
what I paid, book value, improvements etc.

Please lets us know how you make out and what if any the difference is.

Fred

re .18:

Our boat is in Marblehead and is insured for more than yours. Our premium 
is under $700 with 2% hull deductible, $500000 liability, and $100 
deductible on our Avon Redcrest and liferaft. Our agent is Frank 
Butterworth at Sise Insurance in Portsmouth, NH. I haven't talked to 
Frank in a couple of years, but in the past he was excellent to work 
with.

Alan

         Some time ago thinking that I was insured by MET(verbal commitement
    from them)I am pretty sure that I wrote a note someplace in this file of how
    reasonable and inexpensive MET was.Next day they called me to tell me
    that they wouldn't insure my boat because she was over 10 years old.
    Today I called them again. The first person I talk to said that their
    specifications showed that they don't insure boats over 10 years
    old,but she gave me another number to call someone else who would know
    more.The second person wasn't any help either so he referred me to
    sales where I talked to Craig Millmen tel.800-438-6381.
    Craig asked me to fax him the quotation from the other company and
    a couple of hours later called me back and told me that he would
    insure me as of today with the exact same coverage as the one from NMU
    with home port in Massachusetts for appx. $ 420.00. Oh ! and by the way
    because the quotation from the other company states " No losses" I
    don't even have to survey my teenager (17) boat.
    O.K. up to now it is verbal till I get the paper in my hand,at which
    time I will let you know thru this file how it went.Maybe MET is much
    better company than I thought.
    I feel a little better now,Thank you.
    
       
     

re .21:

Does "exact same coverage" really mean just that? As has been discussed 
before in SAILING, there are two kinds of marine insurance -- named 
peril and all perils. As the name implies, named peril only covers you 
for the specified disasters and is less expensive than the "we cover you 
no matter what happens". What about depreciation. etc? Read the fine print
before sending any money. There may be some reason for the price 
difference other than insurance company greed.

signed,

ever the skeptic

    There's another thing you should consider before going with Met. and
    a strong reason I won't. One ticket in your automobile and your boat
    policy is canceled. They draw no distiction between 150hp 17' planing
    hull and a 36 cruising sloop. If I'm wrong well, maybe they changed
    they're policy over the past 4 years. But I'll stick with Boat/US and
    not put my coverage at risk of an officer looking to fill a quota. 
    
    Just check
    Geoff

Four years ago when I had FIRST STEP she was insured with MET. When they were 
processing the application, there was acomment about 2 tickets my wife had when
I listed her and an 'operator', but that comment was folowed by "but it is a 
sailboat and sailboats DONT SPEED". 

I switched to BOAT US because I had trouble finding someone in MET that would 
really talk boats like they had actually seen one.

We got a mailing from MET this year pushing there boat insurance and I have been 
meaning to call the 800 # and get a quote.

But based on service experience with BOAT US and the stories of the 'swat' teams
the pull together for major problems like Hugo, Andrew and Bob, I am willing to 
pay at least 10% more for the comfort.

I also got a call from BOAT US after BOB to check on any damage or problems.

Told them only problem I had was that boat was COVERED with maple leaves!! 

Fred  Also a bit skeptic

    Beginnings is insured with MET through DEC. I had contracted with an 
    independent MET agent (a story in of itself) and found out through MET
    at DEC that we could transfer the policy "in-house". We didn't have any
    problems in the process. 
    
    I believe we pay about $320 per year for the policy. Beginnings is a
    28' sloop and is now 11 years old.
    
    JC
    
    

     
    FWIW (since it seems most of the readers here are cruisers...)
    
    I was talking with METpay over the last two weeks (yeah, right they
    were responsive...sure), and we were discussing coverage of a new boat
    that I recently purchased.  Went through all the details and
    parameters.  All looked well until they said:
    
    "Hobie-16?  Isn't that a...a...catamaran or something?"  The declined
    the opportunity to provide coverage.
    
    8^(
    Bob
    

 re: .26

 Don't understand why METpay refused to insure a Hobie 16. I just
 insured a Tornado with them - and told them that I would be racing
 it within a local fleet.

 Was it because it was a catamaran? Are there other issues like min
 age and length?

 Thanks for the warning - guess I'll check to make sure we are covered.

  bob

    
    Bob, 
    
    I'm not sure *why* they won't insure it.  It might have even been
    something like "METpay insures in New Jersey via Hanover Insurance, and
    Hanover doesn't cover cats."  For whatever reason, the result is the
    same:  I can't get a "group" rate for a cat with a company that insures
    my house, my car, my possessions (excluding the boat...)  Just seems a
    bit strange to me.
    
    But someone else mentioned that some of the agents may never have seen
    a boat before.  I don't know how many times I had to answer questions
    with "no, there's no motor, it's a sailboat," and "two hulls, not one."
    
    Called Boat/US.  At least they knew that what I was trying to ensure
    was a watercraft!  ;^)
    
    (I don't care too much where the insurance comes from, but it *is*
    convenient to have payments taken in small chunks from my paycheck.)
    
    Bob
    

    Why do you need separate insurance for a Hobie? Normal homeowners
    coverage includes boats under about 25feet and under some reasonable
    horsepower. And your Homeowners liability covers your liability.

    No insurance at my hand yet but I called Craig to see what was going on
    and ask him some questions from this note.
   - I should get my policy next week or the beginning of the week after.
    He doesn't see any problem.
    -50,000 coverage,100,000 liability(have the umbrella for a mil. with
    them) 1% deductible,option for no depreciation,if my mast go they will
    replace with a NEW one, same thing for sails and all equipment.
    All perils.which actualy is not such a thing in case of war,revolution
    nuclear disaster ....I have the same stipulation with the NMU
    insurance. All of this for $421.00,not because I am a nice guy,which I
    am,but
    No losses since I owe the boat
    Cars, house and umbrella policy with MET.
    Group insurance rates for Digital employees.
    Diesel engine.
    Protective device discount for radar loran VHF....
    25 % discount as a full certificate member of the USPS
    Now,if I understand correct,he said that they cannot refuse you for traffic
    tickets anymore as Digital told them they have to insure all employees
    regardless.
    They have more experience about boat insurance than a few years back.
    Qualifications for power boaters to get insurance is more rigid that
    that of sailboat which I don't believe they could ditinguish a couple 
    of years back.
    Yes catamarans to MET is a different annimal.
    Anyway,I'll update this note when I get the papers in hand and know
    more.
    
    Happy sailing.
          
    

    Well,I am a little late posting this but I got my policy at hand from
    Metropolitan Ins. Co.In comparison with my previous insurer they
    are the same in most cases,like they both replace demaged equipment
    with new one(with the only exception the sails) Met gives me a little
    more on other staff that I didn't even ask for,such as emergency tow,
    but on the big one of total loss they only pay actual and not agreed
    value like my other insurer did.As a matter of fact MET does not
    offer agreed value at any price.
    But I am satisfied since I pay 40% of what my former insurer was
    asking.
    Would I ever loose my boat I probably regret it although the total
    value I put on the boat is very close to the blue book. 

re .31:

If you're happy with an actual cash value policy, fine. In many cases, 
though, I think such a policy is less than wise in spite of the cost 
saving. In the event of a total loss, there is tremendous potential for 
protracted discussions between you and the insurance company over what 
was the "actual" value of the boat. In many cases (such as mine) the blue 
book greatly understates the value of the boat, especially in cases 
where the boat has been built in very small numbers and in those where the 
boat is exceptionally well-maintained and equipped. I'd guess that the
blue book value of our boat is maybe 75% of what we could sell our
boat for. Our agreed value insurance value is as much as three times
blue book value and is still only about two-thirds of replacement cost.
Because of this I wouldn't even consider an actual cash value policy in 
spite of its lower cost.

Alan

Well, there is an additional insurance cost that you may find yourself 
paying sooner or later, especially if you keep your boat a few years.
Our boat is now 14 years old and was last professionally surveyed in
June 1987. This fall, our insurance company insisted on a condition and
valuation survey. If I were them, I'd want an occasional survey, too, I
suppose. 

So I had a survey done. The surveyer found nothing of significance 
wrong. I was pleased to learn that the moisture in the hull laminate is
about average for all fiberglass boats (which makes it the driest
Valiant in captivity). The surveyer is likely to recommend a reduced 
value, but still one well above average Blue Book. The only unpleasant 
part of this was paying the bill for the survey -- $320. Oh well.

Alan

    
    	Also- John Collins reported from a USSA meeting, that Reliance
    Insurance, as well as another carrier, will NOT pay repairs on hulls
    you might smack into while you're on port, at least when racing. This s
    new and of note. I hope it helps the attitudes out on the course. When
    a hired gun is driving someone else's boat, he has the additional
    unfair advantage of owner-steered boats usually staying out of his way.
    I mean, what does he care, if he cuts you in half and sinks the boat
    he's on? He'll be on another tomorrow!
    	Hey! Editorializing again! Flame off.
    
    	Anyway, an interesting trend. Play nice boys!!
    
    	Scott