Conference unifix::sailing

I also went to the Newport show but even before going I had pretty much decided
on getting a Catalina-22 for next year. My reason for going was to look over
the 1986 Catalinas which have a redesigned interior and few other new features
and decide between a new boat or used. If you want me to run down what has
changed for '86 I can do that but that is not the point of the reply. I think
the changes made for '86 improve the boat but they are really only cosmetic
and in no way have the class standards been diminished (well, with the possible
exception of internal halyards).

Put very simply I've decided on the C-22 because its a boat with a strong
class organization, and is by far the most popular single boat in the size class
where I contemplate sailing, Lake Massabesic and Lake Winnipesaukee.  I don't
know where you plan to sail but if you want your boat to hold its resale
value then you can take comfort from two sources: a strong class association
and popularity in your area. The boat should be in production and the 
manufacturer should care about class standards. The C-22 qualifies in all
respects. Something like 13,000 of them have been built and Catalina is still
cranking them out in volume. 

If you have any thoughts of racing your boat make sure you obtain and read
the class rules. If there are none that should tell you something, like don't
do it. I have read the C-22 rules and can say they are reasonably tight.
Read the rules for any specifications that would help limit the cost of 
maintaining a competitive boat (like limitations on sail inventory and sail
materials). It may or may not be in the rules, but also pay particular 
attention to required crew size. A big plus for the C-22 from my perspective 
is that normal racing crew size is only 2.

It's true that the C-22 is not as fast as some of the newest lightweight designs
(sometimes dangerously lightweight) but it's also not slow. Its Portsmouth 
rating (where 100 is baseline and lower is faster) is a respectable 99.0. I
note that I happen to know one of the Hunter dealers that was exhibiting
at the show and he also wanted me to look at the Hunter 23. My answer was that 
it may very well be a good boat, it may be a faster boat, but it does not have 
the class organization the C-22 has, and is not so popular where I plan to sail.
I doubt we're talking about the same dealer because my friend (like myself)
is active in the Day Sailer Association and I know he considers the Day Sailer 
to be the one of the best, if not the best all-around one-design dinghy ever 
created. Note that the Day Sailer design is 25 years old and the boat is 
heavier than many newer and less successful designs.

Bob

Some general comments about picking your boat...
The choice should be based on your requirements. How are you going to use
the boat? Daysail? Overnight or weekend cruising? Longer cruises? Are you
going to race? Do you have kids? (i.e., do you want a more stable boat?)
Figure out what you want and then find the boat that meets those requirement.

We were impressed with the way the Catalina 22 uses interior space. We thought
it was about the best of the 22's. I was not impressed with what a number of
different people said about the way they sail. You might want to consider a used
22. There are a lot of them around and they come fairly well equipped quite
often which can save you considerable bucks. Get a copy of Soundings or New
England Offshore and look at the ads. There's a lot of variety in the low 20'
range. 

Good luck!

re -.1
What is the Portsmouth rating? Can you describe it? Is it like PHRF?

Ed

I ALSO WENT TO THE NEWPORT SHOW, AND WAS IMPRESSED BY THE BOATS
FROM MORRIS YACHTS, IN SOUTHWEST HARBOR, MAINE.  WE ARE AT THE
CRUISING END OF THE SPECTRUM AND WERE TAKEN BY THE EFFICIENT USE
OF BELOW DECK SPACE AS WELL AS OTHER POINTS SUCH AS EXTERNAL
KEEL, ETC.  DOES ANYONE OUT THERE HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WITH MORRIS
YACHTS OR KNOW OF ANYONE WHO DOES.  FROM THE READING I HAVE DONE
THEY ARE A REPUTABLE OUTFIT, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO GET SOME FIRST
OR SECOND HAND INFO.  

VIC MONTIVIRDI
DTN 264-4542

I was somewhat impressed with some of the European boats.   Being somewhat
picky about construction nits, I picked up the floor panels on one of the
boats and was amazed at the clean construction and well joined sections.
If you look in a section of an O'Day or Endeavor that isn't supposed to ever
see light you usually find a pound of sawdust, excess wire or globs of glass.
No idea how they sail though.   Dollar wise they seemed a good value now.

Rick

Re .2 I'm not real familiar with PHRF ratings but I believe the answer is
yes, Portsmouth ratings are like PHRF. Portsmouth numbers are the common
method of handicaping dinghies and PHRF a common method for handicaping 
cruising boats. Portsmouth numbers, like PHRF I believe, are based on 
experience rather than measurements. The number I quoted for C-22 was a 
base number but they are also available by wind speed. Representative
base Portsmouth numbers are Flying Dutchman 80.0, Lightning 89.7, and Day
Sailer 99.9. Under Portsmouth, you divide elapsed time by the number to get
corrected time so the lower the number the faster the boat.

Back to C-22s, especially the criticism of how they sail. Could
we be more specific? Some criticisms are a matter of taste, some may not
apply to lake sailing, and some may just be from people spoiled by larger 
and more expensive boats. I'd like the opportunity to judge for myself.

One more point. When you buy a boat you obviously want to choose a boat that
meets your needs, but if you want to protect the resale value of your 
investment and the ability to sell your boat at any price then you should also 
consider other people's needs and tastes. This 
is why I stress choosing a proven design, a reasonably popular boat, and a boat
with a strong class organization. I presently own a Sunfish and a Day Sailer
both class boats and I wish I could have a dollar for everytime I've seen a
used boat ad that started out "Sunfish like" or "17-ft Sailboat - Similar to 
a Day Sailer." The prices on the like-a-boat ads were also much lower than
on the real thing.

re .5
Thanks for the description of Portsmouth ratings. It sounds interesting.


The comments I heard on the Cat-22 were basically that she's slow and
underpowered for a boat of her size. I've never sailed one myself but as
I said I think they do a phenomenal job of utilizing the limited space. Speed
relative to other designs is largely irrelevant though if you're going to
be doing a lot of class rating. The PHRF rating would probably be very accurate
too because of the large number of C-22's in this area (Boston). (Assuming
a lot of them race!!)

If anyone has a PHRF rating list I hereby volunteer to enter it in this file.
It would be fun to see how your present/old/future boats compare.

Ed

re: Rhodes 22

Was that the blue-and-gray one, out on the north docks I think?  If so, it
was somewhat boxier-looking than say the Rhodes 19.  At any rate, there was
a Rhodes 20-something there, and I believe it should not be compared to the
enduring Rhodes designs we already appreciate.  (The late, I believe) Phil 
Rhodes was a talented designer of many small and larger vessels, but what
the design firm still bearing his name may have done isn't related.  The
best measure of a new design like that probably is the builder, not the 
designer's name.  There's more to say on this, but enough for now.

re: Morris Yachts

My father and I seriously considered Chuck Paine's FRANCES 26 back in '77,
a couple years after Chuck designed it.   It was his first commercially
successful design; practically his first design, period, given his increasingly
popular designs.  Tom Morris is a first-rate boatbuilder, in the modern Maine 
tradition.  Almost all of his "standard" boats are Chuck's designs now...he
has one that isn't, I think.  The FRANCES proved too expensive to build in
the quality and quantity he was aiming for, so Chuck and Tom struck a deal
with a builder in England, where it is now made as the VICTORIA 26 (which
was at the show.)  They both built them till last year, when Tom finally
decided VICTORIA was so much cheaper to produce abroad and import, that his
special touch (he does have one) didn't justify the substantial price penalty
a customer would have to pay.  So, he now imports and sells them. 

Small Boat Journal has had some comprehensive write-ups on Morris-built boats:
the FRANCES 26 within the past year got a multipage test and review (generally
very complimentary), and the LEIGH (30'), ANNIE (28') and JUSTINE (36') all
have been reviewed at least briefly in their introduction years.

If you agree that you get what you pay for, then paying more per pound for
a Morris yacht than for much of the competition will seem reasonable.
								       John.