Conference unifix::sailing

Gee, you have asked one of the most difficult questions in sailing. Be 
warned, what follows are my prejudices.

Julie and I own both a fiberglass dinghy and an inflatable so I can be 
opinionated about both.

Inflatables: Ours is an Avon Redcrest. According to Practical Sailor, 
more people own Avons than any other inflatable. Expensive, to be sure, 
but they seem to last and last. Rowing? Hopeless in anything other than 
a dead calm, even with floorboards. Power? It isn't too bad with a 2 hp 
outboard, except that it is wet even with a dodger. And in Maine, wet is 
cold. Towing? Don't. Sure some people do, but the first time we tried it 
the wind leaped from calm to 20 knots plus and promptly flipped it, 
whereupon it filled with water and made a nifty sea anchor. I am still 
amazed (three years later) that the towing eye didn't rip off. Why did 
we buy it? Partly because a nice young couple chartered our boat and gave 
us enough money to pay for it. Mostly, though, because it fits 
(deflated) in a cockpit locker. Takes five to ten minutes to inflate, 
even with floorboards. About the same time to stow. If you get one, have 
two additional D-rings (towing eyes) added. I would not have an 
inflatable as my only dinghy.

Fiberglass: Well, we have owned the same Eli since 1977. It looks a bit 
tatty, but then we don't lavish any care on it either. Rowing? So-so at 
best. A more forward rowing position is needed with two people to get 
the bow down. I have rowed several other dinghies that are much nicer to 
row. Power? Not bad with the same 2 hp outboard. I find the outboard 
more bother than it is worth most of the time. (I never row the Avon 
more than 10 feet unless I absolutely have to.) Towing: Hmmmmm, not 
good, not bad. Biggest problem is bad weather. I installed a self-bailer 
in ours, but a couple of bad seas in succession can still fill it 
with water. We lost ours in a gale in the Gulf of Maine (a fisherman 
found it and returned it to us) when it swamped and broke a new 3/8 
nylon tow line (breaking strength about 3700 pounds). We tow it for 
overnight weekend trips, but leave it home when making longer trips. 

In general, dinghies are badly compromised designs. If it rows well, it 
may not power well (not enough bouyancy aft). If it sails well, it is 
likely to be rather unstable. If it carries a big load, it is likely to 
neither row nor sail well (too beamy and blunt bowed). Decide what your 
priorities are, and then test row, sail, power, and tow. Sadly, there seems 
to be a correlation between price and performance. Cheap usually isn't 
very good. Also sadly, one doesn't learn this except by trial and error. 
I cringe at the thought of paying $2000 or more for a dinghy, but I would 
if I could stow it on deck. 

Ah, stowage on deck. We have 60" of deck space for a dinghy. Therefore I 
have been buying/collecting plans for nesting dinghies -- five sets so far 
and I am about to order a sixth set. None is quite right. Hopefully the 
sixth design, a 10' stem bowed dinghy (the other have been variously 
shaped 8' prams) will be the one we will build (only about one 
commercially available nesting dinghy at the moment). Rowing ability in 
sea and weather fair and foul is our major concern. 

The Dinghy Book by Stan Grayson is a good survey of dinghy designs and 
manufacturers. There have also been articles in Sail and Cruising World. 
See also Roth, Street, Dashew, et al, for discussions of design and the 
necessity for a good rowing dinghy. And you are right, not many used 
dinghies available. 

I would perhaps suggest buying a (relatively) cheap Eli now (since you 
probably want a dinghy soon) and buying a good dinghy later when you 
know better what you want. Besides, who needs the worry of leaving an 
expensive dinghy chained to a dock or whatever? I sure would steal a 
Dyer before an Eli.

Alan

We had an Redcrest with our Pearson 26. When we towed the @*!*1 we would bring
the towing eye right up to the stern and literally rest the eye on the stern of
the boat so that only the stern of the dinghy rested on the water. One thing we
had to do in this configuration is run a line from the side of the dinghy to a
cleat or stanchion on the side of the boat to keep the dinghy from swinging onto
the outboard on the Pearson's transom. 

I'll second everything Alan says about inflatables and rowing. They're terrible,
especially if there's wind or waves or both. Can't speak for how they are
under power cuz we didn't have an outboard for ours.

We only had the inflatable though, so we got used to it. Once I had the
inflation/deflation routine down it wasn't all that bad.

Practical Sailor just had an article on dinghys. I'll send you a copy if
you send me your mail stop.
       
Ed

I also have an Eli which I use with a 3 hp British Seagull (a longshaft - the
wrong engine).  I bought it a year and a half ago for about $375.  

Some comments:

     - I bought it because it was cheap.

     - It squats too much under power when you are by yourself and
       don't have any weight to place forward (could be the type of
       motor I'm using).  Sitting in the middle and using a tiller
       extension on the Seagull solves the problem nicely.

     - I have towed the Eli from Squantum to Provincetown with a
       J22 without any trouble.

In summary, its not fancy but seems adequate.  Unfortuantely, I have
never used any of the expensive dingys described in Practical Sailor, so
I can't make any comparisons.

                           John

re .2:

Yes, this is about the only way to tow an inflatable safely. One 
additional comment, though. It helps to tow the inflatable from the 
leeward side of the transom. This protects the dinghy from the oncoming 
waves, provides flatter water for it to ride on, and keeps it out of the 
wind. Towing from the leeward side of the transom is easily done with 
two towlines. After tacking just ease the windward line and bring in the 
leeward line. Keep one line cleated at all times and there is little 
risk of losing the dinghy. It isn't necessary to actually have the 
inflatable resting on the transom. It will ride well maybe 5 feet aft of 
the transom. No chafe problem this way. Any dinghy will tow better in 
rough weather if you tow a small drogue from its stern. We in fact tow 
our Avon this way when daysailing in good weather. For long passages or 
when there is any sign of the wind building we lash it on deck or stow 
it below.

Alan

I'm in the same (pardon the expression) boat myself.   I need a way to get
to shore when I'm away from my slip but am torn between the inflatable and
the rigid dingy.

I've seen a few boats near me with dingy racks on the stern for their 
inflatables, but I'm not sure if thats megabucks also.  Is lashing a dingy
to the stern (as an alternative to Ed's towing suggestion) viable?

Has anyone anything good or bad to say about Zodiac, Achilles, or any other
tenders besides Avon?

Rick

PS.  Alan,  is that book available anywhere?

We presently have an Achilles DT-2 on our Catalina 27. I like it and it
does the job. The job being to get me to shore once in a great while. We
cruise middle Mass. and rarely need a dingy except to go ashore on one
of Boston Harbor's outer islands. We are moving to NH this summer and
plan to do some extensive cruising next year. So, we MAY have to "move
up" at that point.

My point... and believe it or not, there is one....

You don't have to buy "over sized" with all your equipment. Yes, an
inflatable is meta-stable, in my opinion CAN'T be towed and takes about
1/2 hours to inflate/deflate but I don't expect much and it does "the" 
(my) job.

I've owned 3 boats and 3 inflatables so my opinion is kind of one sided.

Good luck,

Gary...

Ed - I'd appreciate that article you mentioned in #2.  My mailing
address is:

Bob Ryan
MR03-3/J19

From the 1 June 1983 Practical Sailor report on inflatable dinghies:

				------ overall rating -----
		#	would	poor	fair	good	exc
	      owners	buy
			again

Sevylor		17	37%	18%	41%	29%	12%
Sea Eagle	18	82%	 0%	12%	76%	12%
Sears		 7	29%	29%	29%	29%	14%
Semperit	 5	80%	 0%	 0%	80%	20%
Achilles	69	90%	 0%	 8%	53%	39%
Zodiac		21	80%	 5%	10%	33%	52%
Avon		84	95%	 1%	 2%	35%	61%


		average number of repairs per year

Avon		.104
Achilles	.178
Zodiac		.233

Summaries:

Avon: Although an Avon can cost 30-40% more than other Hypalon-Neoprene 
inflatables, it is a more intelligent choice, if you can afford it.

Achilles: If you want a Hypalon-Neoprene inflatable, but can't stomach 
the price of an Avon, the Achilles would be a good second choice.

Defender Industries claims the lowest US price on Avons. A Redcrest is 
$619.95. Stern seat $43.34 extra.

Achilles are between $499.95 and $639.95 depending on model (all 4 
person).

The Dinghy Book by Stan Grayson was published by International Marine
Publishing in 1981 (Camden, Maine). It might be available from them
or various bookstores such as the Armchair Sailor in Newport. I 
borrowed it from my local library.

Can anyone recommend a good marine supply store with good prices for both
inflatibles and fiberglass dinghys?  I've looked at Achilles tenders at
Bliss for around $650 which is a pretty good price.  I've also looked at
some ship stores in or around Narragansett Bay area but I can't find really
exceptional selections/prices.  Who sells Avon inflatibles in the area?

Thanks,

-RPR-

Bliss is not cheap by any means.  Open an LL Bean catalog and you will see
the same tender for $599.  And LL sells at top dollar as well!  

I have some Achilles brochures at home that I got from boat shows.  Ill post
the names here if I can find them.  The best prices I've seen though are
from the discount houses, or from England at places like Telesonic.

Rick

I agree with all of the above regarding inflatables (hard to row but more
stable than a hard dinghy). I picked up a used Achilles (4 - man w/ 3 slats)
3 years ago via the want-ad for $130 (a good buy). I had to patch a few spots
but it has served me well. I tend to only use it when doing extended cruising 
down the cape. I keep it stowed onboard all the time. Underpower (I have a 1.7
"mighy mite", alias egg beater) it's better than rowing but still hard to 
manuver in any sort of a breeze. In rough weather when it's too wet to stow
down below, I lash it (deflated) on the deck. I learned my lesson
about towing it as it once leaped out of the water  and landed on my wife's
head! (It has since been nicknamed "ORCA").

Before I had the luxury of launch service to and from my boat I owned a smaller 
Achilles. Every weekend I took it out of my trunk and towed it (bow up)
it everywhere. The bottom rotted out after the second year! I've been told
that this was one of the earlier Achilles of cheaper quality. Regardless, if
I expected to use an inflatable every weekend like that again, I would opt for
the Avon as they are by far the best in terms of quality and length of service.

As far as inflating them, it normally takes 20 - 30 minutes to pump mine with
a foot pump - the most boring activity in boating. For years I have tried to 
find a 12 volt air pump but the only ones I could find were air compressors 
for auto tires - small volume at high pressure. Finally, I found the right one 
at Bliss that has a cigarette lighter plug to boot! This has cut the time from 
20-30 minutes to no more than 10. I am so lazy that I found that an ordinary
hair drier (using house current where available) could do the job in less than
3 minutes!

Well, regarding the original question, it made my choice for an inflatable
based on the limited number of times I use it. Be careful when looking at used
ones. I mix a soapy solution of dishwashing liquid and water to find leaks.
(It's the most successful means of finding any pin-hole sized leaks). I did this
before I bought the one I have now.

I'm happy with the dinghy I've got now.  Best of luck selecting yours.



Bill C.

Here is a list of Achilles distributors I got from a recent boat show.  You
should be able to contact them for prices.  I've never dealt with any of
them so can't say much more...

	Gun and Tackle      		Havencraft N.E.
	Falmouth, Mass 02540            Sudbury, Ma 01776
	
	Marine Speculator       	Landrigan Corp
	Beverly, Mass 01915	        East Boston, Ma 02128

	Seven C's Marine                Tropic Land Marine
	Fairhaven, Mass 02719           Dedham, Mass 02026

	Dougs Marine      		Ocean Limited
	Ipswich, Ma. 01938              Marblehead, Ma 01934

Rick

(To answer my own note) For anyone who might be interested:

  E.B. Marine is having a sale on Achilles LT-4, a three man dinghy for
  $440.00, which is 200 less than good ole Bliss.  They also have the
  two-man LT-2 for $384, which is an inviting price for an inferior
  dinghy.  The sale runs through 7/28/85 (I went to the store in
  Providence).

See note 139.

Re .13

I would never EVER buy anything from Havencraft! The poorest reputation belongs
to that establishment! I was delighted to hear a couple of years ago that they
lost ther Hunter dealership (now provided by Wells Yachts of Marblehead).

As far as Marine Speculator, their address has changed to RT. 1A (Bridge st?)
in Salem Mass (1/2 mile from the Beverly bridge).

B.C.

    After my brother in law managed to swamp my venerable old Eli last
    week, I've decided to join the 20th century and buy an inflatable.
    Since I don't plan on waterskiing, are there any advantages to spending
    the extra money for a sportboat-type inflatable (pointed pontoons &
    hard transom) vs. the dinghy-type with a motor mount?  Does one tow
    better than the other?  Is one easier to inflate?  Will a 2hp Suzuki
    push one better than the other?  
    
    Right now I'm leaning toward the dinghy type based on cost and the
    fact that I don't want to have to buy a bigger outboard.  

    Advantage of the dinghy type other than price, is for a given over
    all lenght, you get more room in a dinghy style.
    
    Many sportboats have an inflatable keel and rigid floorboards. 
    The keel seems to allow a small motor to push the sportboat more
    easily than a dinghy style.  I have a 2.5 horse outboard on my 
    8'4" sportboat and it moves the boat quite nicely.   Lots of sportboats
    have larger diameter chambers which help give more bouyancy and
    less room inside.
    
    I have a sportboat which I use for a tender to travel about .4 mile
    to get to my mooring.  Earlier this year when I thought I'd lost
    the boat, I made up my mind to replace it with a dinghy with rigid
    floorboards, just to get more carrying room.  I didn't have to replace
    it, so can't make a one to one comparison.
    
    My sportboat tows very well, on a long bridle.
    It has never swamped, or done anything unexpected.
    
    djc
    

    The sportboat, rigid floor, inflatable keel, rigid transom, will also
    row MUCH better the the dinghy-type.
    I have a 5hp on an 11 ft Achilles and with two people aboard will plane
    easily.
    I have rowed a 35lb CQR with associated chain and rode "to windward"
    with the sportboat with little trouble.
    

    I've never had an inflatable dinghy myself, but I watched the folks in
    the boat next to mine try to get into one in the wind one day.
    
    We were tied up at our moorings and the wind was blowing hard but not
    at hurricane levels by any means.  In the next boat was a lady and her
    young daughter who wanted to go ashore.  The problem was that their
    inflatable dinghy (no idea what kind) was out at the end of its painter
    flipping upside down and rightside up and touching the water only to
    bounce off it again.
    
    I had to take them ashore in my aluminum dinghy, which didn't seem to
    have any problem with the wind.
    
    I was thinking about an inflatable myself until I witnessed that
    display.  I don't think I'm interested any more.
    

    Over the last 15 years my dingy has been the "Classic Yacht Tender"
    bought from Pat Ahern and later Henry Grew in Dover MA.
    
    They are 8 1/2 feet long (also an 11 1/2 ft model) and are bought
    as an unfinished shell.  (weigh 45lb)
    
    I built the first one as a sailing/rowing dingy and the second
    as a rowing dingy only.
    
    They have a wineglass stern and good freeboard with a bow that rides
    over waves.   They row very well with 7' or 6 1/2' oars.   Also tow
    well if you keep the towing eye low.
    
    The second one I built had glassed in front and rear seat/floatation
    tanks and weighs in at 83lb.   
    
    Frank
    

	Would you have an address or phone number for these people?
	
	If i understand correctly, they supply dinghy kits? or just
	the hull?

	tnx,
	paul

    Two years ago at the Newport boat show I purchase a Vector inflatable
    sportboat-type dinghy from my marina who was exhibiting at the show.
    This is a Korean-made dinghy made of Hypalon.  There were a number of 
    reasons why decided to buy it:
    
    	I didn't think I could afford an Avon
    	I didn't want to buy Japanese
    
    But the thing that really sold me was that it came with a 10-year
    warranty, same as an Avon.
    
    Everything was fine the first year, but this year I started having some
    leaks around the floorboard.  My marina sent it back to the distributor
    (Offshore Navigation which also packs liferafts).  Next, the chambers
    started to deflate slowly.  Not just one, but all three, so I knew
    there were some leaks between chambers.  But the leaks were so slow I
    really didn't pursue it.
    
    Then, last August I was in Vinyard Haven.  As I motored the Vector up
    to the dock a guy on the dock said he was surprised to see a Vector
    still inflated.  Then he proceeded to tell me how he was one of
    80 people in Connecticut who bought from a distributor.  It turns out
    that the manufacturer used a bad batch of glue and that ALL of the
    boats were experiencing severe air loss.  He told me that the
    manufacturer wouldn't honor the warranty and the distributor tried to
    until they went Chapter 8.  They even went to the state department, but
    there is no way to force a foreign business to honor warranties in the
    United States.  The man at the dock said that all of the people he knew
    were S.O.L. and most had purchased other inflatables.
    
    It turns out that Young manufacturing makes the identical dinghy for
    private labels including Mercury, under the "Quicksilver" label and
    West Marine under their own nametag.  
    
    There are extenuating circumstances, I'm told.  Supposedly, the
    importer (now also Chapter 8) bought a batch of dinghies on the "gray
    market" that was never supposed to be sent to the U.S.  (I wonder who
    they were intending to unload these defective dinghies on, the
    Swedes?).  Because of this, Young is washing their hands of any
    responsibility.
    
    Needless to say, the leaks in my dinghy are now severe.  Fortunately,
    my marina and the distributor they purchased the Vectors from are both
    in business so I have some recourse.  The deal I've been offered is one
    they say they've worked out with two other customers - purchase the
    skins of one of the identical boats from Mercury and split the cost
    three ways.  It would work out to about $200 for me, the distributor
    and the marina.  I'm a little reluctant to do that because it's the
    same manufacturer.
    
    Alternately, my marina has offered to get me an Avon at their cost less
    $400 (their contribution plus the distributor's).  A 9-ft Avon rover
    lists for $1850.  Dealer cost is about $1200, making my cost around
    $800.  Now this is $600 more than replacing the "skins", but I'd have
    an Avon.  
    
    Lesson learned!
    
    Mr. Moderator, I believe an "I told you so" reply is in order here!  
    

    
    	Sometimes ya get what ya pay for- but never more, usually less!
    
    	A friend has a Zodiac comparable to mine, which lives in the water
    	all summer. Apparently, the topsides got sticky, then began what
    	looked to me like delam. After contatcting a distributor, he
    	learned that  a couple of model years were made with crummy
    	material. Anyhow, between the distributor and manufacterer, he 
    	ended up with a new raft for a `few hundred' bucks. He'd been using
    	the thing for over 4 years, so I guess that doesn't sound bad.
    
    	Moral: pray you find a manufacturer who wants to keep you as a
    	customer! Of course, the wallet will lighten considerably....

    If it is any help I will find current Avon prices in the U.K. Not sure
    of $ to � and vice versa at the moment. If you want the info mail me on 
    Ships::gough_p
    
    Pete
    

    Defender currently sells the Avon Rover 280 (9') for $1429.95.
    
    They'll probably go for 10% less next week at the Annapolis show. I'd
    say that $800 is a pretty good deal.
    

    Are there any readers who have experience with the new AVON 2.85
    inflatable with the roll-up floor?  I need the roll up convenience and
    storage compactness, but am reluctant to spend so much money until I
    can talk with a real owner or user.
    
    Also, how much HP is enough for this 9'2" inflatable?
    
    
    Suggestions will be appreciated.