Conference unifix::sailing

THIS IS JUST A SUGGESTION, BUT YOU CAN PROBABLY HEAD OFF ANY SNAGS
BY MAKING SURE THAT ALL YOUR CORRESPONDENCE IS IN WRITING, INCLUDING
FOLLOW-UPS ON TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS.
                                      VIC M.

Among the biggest headaches boatowners ever have to deal with are warranty
claims; the industry practices vary widely, and you can count on far less
useful coverage than most any car, for instance.  Assuming your boat is new,
being purchased through a dealer, I would ask some pointed questions about
what happens if the engine blows (or just runs unhappily), fittings pull or
show stress effects, delamination is discovered, and so on.  

Often it is the dealer, not the manufacturer, who winds up holding the bag, 
and so his/her reputation can be quite vital to later satisfaction.  Obviously,
most boats experience only minor problems (and they all seem to), but enough
are serious to the point of five-figure suits.  In one famous case, an insurance
company refused to provide coverage, although the boat was a well-known and 
popular brand.  The owner sued for a new vessel, and got half the hull cost in
damages.  

Enough horror stories.  Just ask about worst-case scenarios, and start planning
a full summer of sailing!

My only comment is

	Have it surveyed!

Hire a marine surveyor to examine it.  They generally do an extremely
close inspection and can give you info on what does or may need work.

It has to be surveyed.

Thanks for the responses, but I guess what I am looking for are specific
items that I (not the surveyor) can look for during the inspection as well
as other closing horrors you would like a nice guy like me to avoid.

The surveyor is a paid mercenary in my opinion, and although he knows boats
far better than I, he doesn't have to take the head apart when the plumbing
breaks.  What do you wish *you* wish you had checked on your boats prior to
getting them?  How do I know the surveyor is doing a good job, or just 
collecting his money?  I have some ideas, but I'm sure I'd miss a lot.

I guess the closing is wrapped up as far as paperwork is concerned now, but
the inspection and commissioning in spring mark my final acceptence.  

Rick

Whether or not the closing has happened, have the boat surveyed by a 
competent surveyor. A good surveyor is well worth his fee. Ralph Kershaw 
in Manchester, MA, is reportedly good. 

Things to look for? The list is endless, but ...

Substantial metal backing plates on all deck hardware including 
stanchions and winches.

Bedding compound under all deck and mast hardware (I'll be quite 
surprised if your mast hardware is bedded).

All bulkheads and other interior joinery properly tabbed to the hull. 

Bronze seacocks (not gate valves) bolted through the hull with backing 
plates. 

Proper grounding of the mast and other hardware. 

All wiring secured every foot or so.

Properly sized deck hardware (lots of builders use a size too small). 
Especially check highly loaded blocks (eg mainsheet and genoa sheet).

All fuel lines properly secured.

Double hose clamps on all hoses.

Siphon breaker in the engine seawater line.

Vented loop in head discharge line.

Adequate bilge pumps, including at least one high capacity manual pump 
that is easily accessible if it clogs.

Hull properly faired.

Deck properly bedded and bolted to hull.

Easy access to all seacocks.

Adequately sized standing and running rigging.

Check any cored deck and hull for delamination -- not uncommon.

Alignment of propeller shaft -- misalignment is not unusual.

Water tanks adequately baffled and well secured (many aren't -- 40 
gallons of water weighs 330 pounds).

Proper running lights -- many are totally inadequate (invisible).

Circuit breakers, not fuses.

Solenoid shutoff on propane stove (if you are lucky enough to have one).

Adequate handrails on deck and below. Too many builders are skimping 
these days.

Protective bar in front of the stove.

Woodpecker catches on all doors.

Adequately strong companionway weatherboards that will stay in place if 
you are knocked down.

Adequate places to hook on a safety harness -- lifelines don't count.

Double lifelines.

Batteries properly secured -- many aren't.

Compliance with the Offshore Racing Council Safety Requirements for your 
type of sailing -- I'm still trying to meet them after five years.



and so on ...


Have a happy winter!

A fine list. Thanks.  Winter will be tough as all I can think of is 
some early sailing.

Rick

Rick,
	.5 is right; the list is nearly endless.  To his (fine) suggestion of
Ralph Kershaw, I would add that of Giffy Full, Marblehead.  You can read about
Giffy in this month's 10th anniversary issue of WOODENBOAT.  His credentials
are impeccable, period.  His rates very fair -- $350/day, and probably your
boat could be done in a day, barring his discovering something which you'd
want to have investigated in any case.   One of the great advantages of having
a survey in your hand which YOU have paid for is that of selective disclosure,
to leverage a price reduction.  Most any buyer will be concerned if problems
crop up, and that will help you.

This is recent experience for me, since I sold my 33' gaff ketch this fall, and
a) the buyer had Giffy survey it (which I was happy about -- he's that honest
   even if I wasn't his client),
b) Giffy discovered some hull lamination defects clearly a product of construc-
   tion 8 years ago (W.E.S.T. w/ Vectra over 1-1/8" strip-planked cedar), 
c) I made a fair but substantial price adjustment as a result.  The buyer got
   the boat for less than market, and will have it repaired where and how he
   wishes for no more than what he would have paid before.  I am left to chase
   the boat builder with threatening letters from my lawyer.  
d) The new owner has a very complete list of necessary repairs, changes, and
   recommended upgrades.  If the deal had fallen through, I probably could have
   bought the survey from him for a negotiated figure, perhaps half his cost.

Believe it or not, this has been positive, if at times difficult, experience.
I've had boats all my life, and though this was largest to date, the basic
guidelines change little in number, only in scope.  A survey is the best
pre-commitment investment you can make, bar none.  And shop for your surveyor
carefully, by reputation and references.  Call a few of the best known and
respected brokers who handle boats of the type you are considering, and ask
them for recommendations.  There are some real con artists out there, but with
Giffy or Ralph, you can't go wrong.  Nuff sed.
						J.

Kershaw just surveyed my boat (I was seller) and did a good job.  One
surprise was discovery of things I didn't know were not up to par.  Each
surveyor also has some special hot buttons so your judgement should
prevail in the end.

I've yet to see a boat meet the Behrens list, but it's certainly worth
trying!

A few things note mentioned:

1. Give the boat a good spray test from a garden hose.  Especially check
the hull/deck joint and around all ports.

2. Ask for electrical and plumbing diagrams.  If they exist, take them
as "philosophical guides", since builders are endlessly revising things.

3. Get names and addresses of any unfamiliar equipment (eg NOT Lewmar,
Schaeffer, etc.)  that might need spares or improvements some day.

4. 

Insist on a sailing and motoring trial and try EVERYTHING.

5. Find out your propeller size and pitch, as you will probably end
up wanting something different.

6. Put together a spares list and enlist the builders help if necessary
to get the odd-ball items.  

7. Check voltage drops to your electronics, eg VHF on HIGH TRANSMIT.

8. Check for electrical leakage.  Buy the SPA CREEK "12v Doctors
Handbook" for how to do this & much other great info.  Substantial
damage can be done in a short time if you've got a leak.  Also,
insure the zincs are adequate.

9. Assume there are about a half dozen loose screws, nuts, or bolts and
go looking for them.  I just found two finger tight nuts holding my
spinnaker halyard block to the top of my mast.

10. Try or think thru all periodic repair items, oil change, stuffing
box repacking, diesel bleeding, and see if they are doable or what
should be moved or restrained so they can be done without leaving
lots of skin behind.

Having just commissioned my second boat most of these came from experience.

Good luck!

I had the inspection last Thursday, and we close this Thursday.  The boat
came  through  with  flying  colors,  and  I  thank  all  those  who gave me
suggestions.  I made sure they were checked out, and I'm quite sure I could
not have thought of all of those by myself.  

The  only  part  left  is  the  trial  run in the spring, (since the boat was
winterized) which marks final acceptance.

Rick

re .8
Where can I get a copy of the "12v Doc..."? It sounds like a good thing 
to have.

Thanks
Ed

The book I mentined, "THE 12 VOLT DOCTOR'S PRACTICAL HANDBOOK" is
available from:

Spa Creek Instruments
616 3rd Street
Annapolis, MD  21403        Phone 301-267-6565

for $24.95 postpaid....   if you can't find it locally.  (10 day money
back guarantee for mail order)

I'd rate this book nearly a "ten" because it covers the basics for non-
engineers, yet has lots of tables and other practical data of interest
even if your EE skills are OK.