Conference turris::scandia

603.0. "Culture clash: baby in or baby out" by TLE::SAVAGE () Fri May 16 1997 12:00

---------------Begin included postings------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] (A. Chowdhury)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: leave baby outside restaurant?
Date: 15 May 1997 17:48:35 GMT
Organization: NWU
 
A big news item in the US for the last few days...
 
For those who haven't heard anything about it, here it is in a nutshell. A 
couple, of whom at least the woman is Danish, ate in a New York 
City restaurant while leaving their baby (in baby carriage) parked outside 
on the sidewalk (within view through a window). The waiter says he 
suggested several times that they bring the baby in, but they said it would 
be fine. Meanwhile, passers-by called police (evidence that New Yorkers 
are nicer than usually reported, especially regarding apparently 
abandoned children), and the police came and took the baby away; the 
parents were charged with endangering their child, the husband also for 
disorderly conduct or something (he attempted to fight with the police). 
They spent two days in jail, the baby four days in foster care. The baby 
has been returned but the parents still face charges.
 
Anyway, the parents' defence was that 'In Denmark people commonly 
leave babies outside restaurants'.
 
I know Denmark is safer than New York (it is also less friendly than New 
York, as I can attest from spending a month there many years ago), but 
are babies really left outside restaurants? Even in winter? What's the 
point...to get away from crying or to spare other restaurant-goers from 
crying? Do Danish babies suffer any long-term psychological ill effects 
from being abandoned on the street for significant periods?
 
Americans are rather well known from travelling to foreign countries and 
expecting things to be the same as at home; Europeans reportedly 
despise them for this. Are Europeans any different? (I am also thinking of 
the many Europeans who insist on smoking in public places in the US.) 
And is it really not known in Denmark that New York is not a safe place? 
 
Am I (and the newspapers) making too much of this, that really this was 
one weird woman unrepresentative of Danes in general? (The Danish 
consulate is reported to have come to her defence.)
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] (Cindy Kandolf)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: leave baby outside restaurant?
Date: 15 May 1997 21:12:04 GMT
Organization: Nethelp Consulting, Trondheim, Norway
  
Children in Scandinavia are left outside (restaurants, stores, etc.)
to NAP.  A child who is left sleeping in a pram is no more likely to
suffer long-term psychological harm from being "left alone" than is a
child left sleeping in a crib alone in a room, something that is not
exactly unknown in the US.
 
They are left outside because a) fresh air is regarded as good for
children and b) many children fall asleep in prams and nobody is
served by waking the child and dragging a very unhappy little person
into a restaurant.  I have NEVER seen a child who was awake left
outside a restaurant because mamma didn't feel like dealing with him;
quite to the contrary, I've seen many more little kids in restaurants
in both Norway and Denmark than i ever did back in Pennsylvania.  I've
seen awake children left outside stores, but only when the parent
really is just running inside for a moment.  And I've seen plenty of
infants sleeping in their prams outside of people's houses.  (In fact
i was asked why my son didn't, as the fresh air would be so good for
him; the simple answer is that he woke up the second the pram stopped
moving.)
 
Children are outside in Scandinavia in the winter time, including
babies sleeping in prams, within reason.  On very cold or windy days,
of course no one would leave an infant outside.  But when it's just a
touch below freezing and the wind is still, a well-dressed, healthy
child is in no danger.
 
- Cindy Kandolf, certified language mechanic, mamma flodnak
  flodmail: [email protected]   flodhome: Trondheim, Norway
        flodweb: http://www.nethelp.no/cindy/
 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
From: [email protected] (Stein J. Rypern)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: leave baby outside restaurant?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:27:04 CET
Organization: SN Internett
 
In article <[email protected]> 
[email protected] (A. Chowdhury) writes:
 
> Anyway, the parents' defence was that 'In Denmark people 
> commonly leave babies outside restaurants'.
 
 Of course people do. When it 
 a) is warm enough
 b) is daylight and 
 c) you can see the baby carriage and baby from inside,
 
.. then it feels completely safe to leave a baby outside in 
a baby carriage. Of course children have been kidnapped in 
the Nordic countries too. 
 
 It is not a frequent thing, I can remember only one such 
incidence in Norway during the last year or so - a car 
thief stole an unlocked car with the keys in the ignition 
from a gas station. In the backseat a small child was 
sleeping.
 
 After about 45 minutes the car was found safely parked 
behind another gas station with the kid still sleeping 
safely in the back seat. 
 
 The thief obviously discovered that he had accidentally 
kidnapped a child, and parked the car in a spot where it 
would be found fairly quickly.
 
 Now the thief *could* have phoned in and told the police 
where the car was parked - it was pretty stupid of him or 
her not to do so. 
 
 But there was probably never any real danger of the thief 
murdering or maltreating the child. 
 
> Do Danish babies suffer any long-term psychological ill 
> effects from being abandoned on the street for significant 
> periods?
 
 People in the US probably spend a lot of time feeling 
*unsafe*. My american fiance says that the only Americans 
who would feel safe are stupid people, particularily women.
 
 I find it amazing that people can think that living like 
that is "normal". To me it sounds like you guys are living 
under a permanent state of siege. Actually, I would think 
this siege mentality would be more damaging to a child's 
psychological health than being left outside in the fresh 
air for a couple of minutes while the parents eat dinner.
 
 And I hope the parents of that baby move back to a Nordic 
country before the kid gets old enough to aquire that 
mentality.
 
 
> And is it really not known in Denmark that New York is 
> not a safe place? 
 
 Well, are you sure it is quite so unsafe as you think it 
is ? Or is it just that the media have scared you so bad 
that you think you *will* be murdered if you dare live 
without fear ?
 
 Smile
 Stein
 
 
 
-- 
Stein J. Rypern  I "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, 
S�rumsand        I  what do we do ?"
Norway           I "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet
[email protected]    I  in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------end included postings-------------------------------------------

 Moderator's note: judging by several other postings to soc.culture.nordic,
 the general 'Scandinavian' reaction is that the city grossly over-reacted in
 the severity of the penalties exacted on the couple.  Perhaps this will
 be a opportunity for the police to learn to moderate their handling such
 incidents.  For example, the police should probably have simply issued a
 verbal warning.

 The action taken would have been more understandable if the couple already
 had been given a police warning once and still refused to 'attend' the baby
 closely, according to city dictates.
  

    Subsequent reports indicated that the couple had been drinking heavily
    and scuffled with the police.