Conference turris::scandia

545.0. "Incident at the border between Norway & Finland" by TLE::SAVAGE () Tue May 25 1993 12:50

    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic                                      
    From: [email protected] (Mauri Haikola)
    Subject: Finnish-Norwegian dispute for a change
    Sender: [email protected]
    Organization: University of Oulu, Dept. of EE, Finland
    Date: Mon, 24 May 1993 21:54:34 GMT
 
    Norwegian border officials expressed some annoyance over the fact that
    the Finns were using armed soldiers in the border inspections in
    addition to ordinary customs officials. Finland defended itself by
    saying that it was necessary to stop criminals that were using the
    northern border more and more these days. Today, the commander of the
    Finnish border forces in Lapland, colonel Aaro Moilanen, says that
    Norwegian refugee officials are smuggling refugees to Finland through
    the border, and that is the reason Finland has had to use soldiers in
    the border inspections. Norway denies this and says that the refugees
    caught in Finland have only crossed the border to do some shopping and
    all that has happened under the surveillance of Norwegian refugee
    officials. According to them, only one Albanian family has crossed the
    border on their own. (translated from the text service of YLE TV) 
 
    I find it hard to believe that a Nordic country would have to smuggle
    people to another one, and I suppose the statement by the
    aforementioned colonel is not worth much. But I still believe in the
    judgment of the Finnish customs to some extent, and it seems clear that
    there was a need to use soldiers as help in the border inspections. Was
    it criminals or refugees that created the need, is beyond me.
 
    How is the Norwegian media covering this? Comments, anyone?
 
    Mauri

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    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    From: [email protected] (Anders Christensen)
    Subject: Re: Finnish-Norwegian dispute for a change
    Sender: [email protected] (NetNews Administrator)
    Organization: University of Trondheim, Norway
    Date: 25 May 93 00:42:26
  
    The impression I've got from Norwegian media is that this is a sort of
    internal Finnish 'conflict' between the border guards (army) and the
    civilian customs officers. The theory mentioned is that the border
    guards have 'lost' some of its duties, due to a lower level of security
    along the border to former USSR, and are trying to squeeze out the
    customs officers (and to some extent the police ... according to the
    newspapers!) in order to gain new tasks. (Afraid of military cutbacks?)
    On the other hand, Finnish border officers fear for their jobs and
    don't want the military entering into their 'domain'.
 
    Anyway, the _official_ Norwegian reaction is that Finland can control
    her border as she likes. As far as I know, there isn't sent any
    diplomatic 'notes', as would be normal when one country raises the
    border control to a level deemed unnecessary high by the other country.
    There seems to be a meeting very soon in the Nordic customs committee
    (?).  Norwegian media thinks the Norwegian government will not do
    anything before that, but will bring the matter up, and ask for an
    explanation.
 
    However, the media tells stories about people being body-searched at
    gunpoint, language problems, and the soldiers writing fines to the
    people passing by, even for trivial things. In general, the control at
    the border between Norway, Sweden and Finland has 'always' been quite
    lax, so people react when the control is increased that much.
 
    The media hint about the conflict, and tells how army border guards
    started 'their own' border control at Kilpisj�rvi border station,
    without the knowledge of the customs officers (neither Norwegian nor
    Finnish) stationed there. At another occasion, the Finnish customs
    officers are said to have 'thrown out' the army from the customs
    station.
 
    The Norwegian media are likely to mirror the views of the Finnish
    customs officers in this conflict. They seem to get most of their
    information from the _Norwegian_ customs officers, who (for obvious
    reasons) seem to be quite 'friendly' with their Finnish colleagues.
    Consequently, the Norwegian media are likely to overdo their stories
    about the Finnish military's presence, rather than underdo it.
 
    Because of the conflict between Finnish army and the customs service,
    the accusations that criminals and refugees cross the borders, are
    taken to be just excuses from the Finnish military. I don't think the
    Norwegian government takes it very seriously. And the Norwegian customs
    officers say that is incorrect, and claim they feel quite uneasy over
    being pulled into what they see as an internal Finnish dispute.
    However, they seem to actively try to help their Finnish colleagues,
    e.g. by complaining about the situation. 
 
    Still, this is what I've learnt from newspapers and radio, and I don't
    claim that it is true just because they said it ... :-)
 
    Regards,
    -anders

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    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    From: [email protected] (Tor Slettnes)
    Subject: Re: Finnish-Norwegian dispute for a change
    Sender: [email protected]
    Organization: California State University, Sacramento
    Date: Mon, 24 May 1993 23:09:43 GMT
  
    Your story represents nothing new in bad relations between the
    Norwegian public and the Finnish border officials. A couple of years
    back (I have to go this far back only because I am in no position to
    follow current events) there was a story in the Norwegian local
    newspapers 'Nordlys' and 'Troms�' about a Norwegian woman who was, for
    no apparent reason, asked by these officials to come in with them, and
    strip down to her underwear for them to 'discover any irregularities'.
    They did not even provide for a femalte official to take care of this;
    two men did the job! Allegedly, they spent 6+ hours on her...
 
    I also have personal experiences with these officials (It is common for
    people from the Troms� area to go to Finland to buy cheaper meat
    etc..), and I'll tell you right away, they weren't exactly optimized
    for efficient politeness in their creation process! In fact, I get the
    impression that they hate Norwegians just because they are Norwegians
    and do not speak Finnish. (Themselves, they don't speak neither
    Norwegian or English, and only very poor  Swedish. How can people like
    that be placed on the border??)
 
    There are some 'stop' signs on the border, but unless the officials are
    outside and give you a sign that they want to have a chat with  you,
    you usually just drive on. Ok, I admit we did not stop *totally* this
    particular time (I guess we had around 10 km/h when crossing).. About
    2-3 km later, there was a road block waiting for us, with police
    sirens, armed officials etc, waving us to the side..

 - "Yhhhti pohhhti kallakaklla", they said. Or something like that.
 - "Sorry, we don't speak Finnish.."
 - "Fan - kanskja ni herrar f�rst�r Svenska, d�?"
 - "Svensk g�r bra.."
 - "Varf�r hadde er slik hastv�rk over grensan?"
 - "Eh, vel.."
 - "Har dere nogot att skjula?"
 - "Neida.. Det var bare ingen p� utsida, s� vi trodde vi ikke
    trengte stoppe..".
 
    (My Swedish is probably as faulty as theirs..)
 
    Whereupon they started to search through our car: The trunk, under the
    seats (they ordered us out). We didn't say much that could upset them;
    they looked like they just needed an excuse to get to use their guns...
 
    When they were done, there was no apology of any kind; rather just a
    grunt and "V�r f�rsektig n�sta gong dere kryssar grensan, vi gillar
    inte snabbkj�rare her.."
 
    Back to your story:

    If the Norwegians can manage without (omnipresent) guns, why can't the
    Finns? To tell you what, some of those Finnish officials'  attitudes in
    combination with guns scares me a bit -- and weapons should not be
    needed at all in this peaceful corner of the world!
 
    I hate to be as quick in my judgment as these officials apparently must
    have been, but:

 1) Norwegian refugee officials don't carry guns (that I know!).
    Why should this be a reason (excuse) for the border officials to
    do so?
 2) I think this is an example of racism... "A dark-skin who crosses
    the border, must obviously try to immigrate!"
 3) How could these officials even *think* that Norwegian refugee
    policy includes exporting the 'problems' to Finland, by smuggling
    them over & breaking the law??? Jeezz... come on!
 
    Well, unless there are some real (justified) fear of serious/armed
    criminality going on in the area, there should be no reason for
    excessive (visible, provokative) use of guns. In my opinion, no guns at
    all are needed.
 
 ___________________________________________________________________________
 (o/          Tor Slettnes          \o)  "Thou shalt be tempted by Intel and
  |      Sacramento, California      |    by Microsoft. Thou willst succumb,
 / >  [email protected]  < \   thence thou shalt be doomed."
 ________________Weegie__________________________God to IBM, in Paradise____

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    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    From: [email protected] (Rolf Manne)
    Subject: Re: Finnish-Norwegian dispute for a change
    Sender: [email protected] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
    Organization: University of Bergen
    Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 07:06:12 GMT
  
    As a Swede I have grown up with the idea that soldiers are not to be
    used against civilians. The last time this happened in Sweden was in
    1931, I think, in Aadalen, and this lead to a major reorganization of
    the police.  I believe that Norway has a similar policy since about
    that time. Therefore,  in the two countries that I know, we have the
    police and not the army to  take care of refugees and criminals. There
    is much more illegal traffic between Sweden and southern Norway, and I
    have never seen soldiers at either side of the border there.
 
    Rolf Manne
     a Swede living in Norway
 
    e-mail: [email protected]

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    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    From: [email protected] (Saarinen Kimmo Samuli)
    Subject: Re: Finnish-Norwegian dispute for a change
    Sender: [email protected] (#Kotilo NEWS system )
    Organization: Tampere University of Technology
    Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 07:41:09 GMT
  
    I don't believe that gunpointing part. It's a different thing to have
    arms on sight than pointing with them at the person under surveillance.
 
    One thing from the past history : I remember from last winter that some
    salmon (lax) were "smugled" in to Finland by 'salting' it. The amount
    of imported fresh salmon was delimited, but nothing was said about the
    preserved fish, so salt was used but wiped off immediately after
    passing the border. The salmon was then sold as fresh.
 
    So the people in the north has already some experiences from the
    increased control.
 
 
    Finnish army has nothing to do with this issue. The Boarder Guard
    (Rajavartiolaitos) is administrated from the same office as the Customs
    and Police Forces, namely from the ministry of inner politics while the
    Finnish army belongs under the ministry of defence. So Boarder Guard
    and Army are separate organizations in peace conditions.
 
    What comes to the norwegian officials taking the refugees with them for
    shopping at the finnish side of the border they should know that most
    of the refugees needs visas for entering the Finnish soil. If they
    don't know, they should, and if they know they are trying a trick that 
    is questionable.
 
    But quite much fuss can be result from lack of information,
    misunderstanings and false expectations from both side when passing the
    boarder.
 
    Regards,
	Kimmo  a.k.a 	k@	(kcat)
-- 
[email protected]           Kyll� mies kissan nostaa,
[email protected]      jos h�nt� kest��.        - san. lasku Jaalasta

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From: [email protected] (Tor Lillqvist)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Finnish-Norwegian dispute for a change
Date: 25 May 1993 08:16:51 GMT
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland, Laboratory for Information
 
    Some points that seem to need clarification in this matter:
 
o In Finland, as in most countries I guess, the control of passports
  is the duty of a different branch of government (Police) than
  Customs.  Next time you cross a border, notice that the guy who
  looks at your passport has a different uniform than the one who
  checks your luggage.  Immigration control might be a third agency.
  Border guarding (*between* official crossing points) is yet another
  agency.
 
o The Border Guard (and Coast Guard) in Finland is not a part of the
  military.  They are under the Ministery of the Interior, not the
  Ministry of Defence.  (But their uniforms do look a lot like the
  normal Army uniforms to me, and maybe some of their personnel like
  to "play military" and behave like assholes.)
 
o Border guards have guns (maybe even assault rifles while patroling,
  at least on the Eastern border).  The Police have handguns.  Custom
  officials are not armed.
 
o The clear separation of duties (police: passport/immigration
  control; Border Guard: guarding the border between official
  crossing points; Customs: import/export control) has recently been
  somewhat rationalized at low-volume locations (for example in
  Lapland, and at sea), or as a result of budget cuts: I think the
  Border Guard might also handle passport checks at crossing points,
  and do some export/import control.  Maybe the Customs also do some
  passport/immigration control.
 
    Surely Norway also has a Border Guard that patrols the border, and a
    Coast Guard that patrols the sea?  Don't they have guns? 
    
    -- Tor Lillqvist, working, but not speaking, for the Technical Research
    Centre of Finland, Laboratory for Information Processing (VTT/TIK).

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    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    From: [email protected] (Kurt Swanson)
    Subject: Re: Finnish-Norwegian dispute for a change
    Sender: [email protected]
    Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
    Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 08:32:43 GMT
 
    Some government official or committee has determined that the Swedish
    army can and ought to be used in certain internal cases. Theft from
    military stores is one case, and reasonable, but the use of the army in
    tracking the "laser-man" seems inherently wrong to me... --  Kurt
    Swanson, Dept. of Computer Science, Lunds universitet. 
    [email protected]

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    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    From: [email protected] (Esa K Viitala)
    Subject: Re: Finnish-Norwegian dispute for a change
    Organization: Simrad Albatross AS
    Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 09:26:05 GMT
 
    I, too have personal experiences crossing the border between Norway and
    Finland, quite a lot of times. I've never experienced any sort of
    trouble.
 
    Once I crossed the border in the middle of the night driving south from
    Tana Bru crossing the border at Utsjoki.  I tried to stop, looked for
    any customs officials to show, used the horn and got an angry wave of
    hand to drive on.

    I drive a Norwegian registered car, the officials couldn't know the
    nationality of the two of us inside the car.  (I have a Norwegian
    passport, my friend was a Finnish citizen).
 
    There's been much worse occasions in the south Finland/Sweden crossing
    the border between Sweden and Finland. Like this:
 
  > Whereupon they started to search through our car: The trunk, under
  > the seats (they ordered us out). 
 
    Similar things take place at Fornebu, not very often, but still.
    (Fornebu is an airport, so inspecting cars is out).
 
    Common to all these is that I as a person have never ever been badly
    treated, not once, be it the Finnish, Swedish or Norwegian officials
    that were doing their duties.
 
    Ever been to Fornebu? Seen guns anyplace? Well, I have. I don't know
    why the "border officials" carry guns, but they do. Not that this
    upsets me very much.
 
 
    > >How is the Norwegian media covering this? 

    NRK covered this yesterday, in the 1900 news. Subtitles of the
    interview of the Finnish colonel were beyond any critisism, giving the
    Norwegian public a twisted picture of the whole affair. He refered to
    Norwegian citizens that constantly cross the border transporting
    persons of Albanian (and other foreign) origin to Finland. 
 
    An interview of some Norwegian bureaucrat (located in Oslo) gave little
    if nothing of importance. He merely stated that this definetly wasn't
    official Norwegian policy, but if such traffic took place in the North
    Norway or not, he really couldn't tell.
 
    Honestly, I think that the Finns were hasty and overreacted. If there
    is any such smuggling, they ought to have caught some and shown some
    evidence. 
    
    This was the first time I ever hear a generalized picture of badly
    behaving customs officials on the border between Finland and Norway.
 
---ekv
-- 
Esa K Viitala, Simrad Albatross A/S,    Truly great madness can not be achieved
PB 483, N-3600 Kongsberg, Norway,       without significant intelligence. 
tlf. +47 3 865415, fax.  +47 3 735825        -- Henrik Tikkanen

    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    From: [email protected]  (Arthur N. Olsen)
    Subject: Re: Finnish-Norwegian dispute for a change
    Sender: [email protected] (USENET News System)
    Organization: The National Library, Rana NORWAY
    Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 13:20:00 GMT
 
    The Norwegian army maintained (maintains ?) a very small contigent 
    (one troop) at Helligskogen right by the border to Finland. I served
    for 3 months in this location in 1973. Our duties included armed
    patrols of the border and guard duty on the the main road to Finald. We
    were instructed to stop and search foreign tourists who took pictures 
    of military installations in the area ( Signs forbidding photography
    were posted ). 

    I can understand that beeing stopped by Norwegian soldiers armed with
    AG3 assault rifles could be quite frightening for unsuspecting
    tourists. 
  
 
  Arthur N. Olsen                  Nasjonalbibliotekavd. i Rana
  Senior Executive Officer         The National Library, Rana NORWAY
  E-MAIL [email protected]       PB 278, N-8601 MO tlf. + (087) 21 203
  "The most northernly National Libray in the world 66:30 N "

   Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic                     
   From: [email protected] (Christian V. Lundestad)
   Subject: Re: Finnish-Norwegian dispute for a change
   Sender: [email protected] (NetNews Administrator)
   Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology, University of Trondheim
   Date: Wed, 26 May 93 15:44:41 GMT
 
    This discussion on armed border guards reminds me of one of my father's
    favourite anecdotes from his military service. He served part of it as
    an (armed) guard on the border to Finland, probably the place mentioned
    above. This was in 1963, and president Kennedy had just been
    asassinated. Apparently, their commanding officer, a die-hard army man,
    was convinced that this was somehow part of a Communist scheme to
    create confusion in the Western world. He was convinced that Soviet
    forces would use the opportunity to launch an attack on Norway through
    Finland. He posted his men on the main road from Finland, and made all
    the preparations necessary to blow it up, should the Commies come his
    way.
 
    Anyway, they waited with their guns ready, and sure enough, in the
    middle of the night, they could hear the roar of engines approaching
    from the Finnish side, and eventually they saw the lights of the
    oncoming vehicles. The commander, convinced that this was indeed the
    Soviet invasion coming his way, cried to his seargent: "If i fall, you
    take over!", and jumped on the road with his rifle poised to try and
    stop what he assumed to be Soviet tanks.
 
    But when the "tanks" came nearer, they could see that it was nothing
    other than a quite ordinary snow plow truck coming through from
    Finland, probably with no more hostile intentions than to get a cup of
    coffee before he continued clearing the roads for the next day.
 
    The story has it that the commanding officer was discharged after this
    incident, but lived the rest of his live in the area, convinced that
    the Russians would come through someday after all.
 
-- 
Christian V. Lundestad          Student, Division of Computer Science
[email protected]               and Telematics, Norwegian Institute of
                                Technology, Trondheim 

    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    From: [email protected] (H. Vaisanen)
    Subject: Re: Norway exports social problems to Finland.
    Organization: University of Joensuu
    Date: Fri, 28 May 1993 08:29:51 GMT
 
    Last week, Norwegian customs officials complained that Finnish border
    guards patrolling the Norwegian-Finnish border carry guns. Finnish
    officials answered that it is our own business what we do on our side
    of the border. Journalists smelled a news stroy and interviewed the
    commander of Lapland border guards, colonel Aaro Moilanen. Among other
    things, he said he thinks Norwegians are helping refugees to come to
    Finland from Norway. To quote a story published on Joensuu newspaper
    Karjalainen on 25 May 1993: "According to Moilanen, the officials of
    Norwegian refugee centers actively help refugees to come to Finland. -
    'When you hire a bus and drive 100 km to the border, you can say
    actively', Moilanen says." Moilanen did not speak about smuggling.
    Reporters grabbed the word refugee, and the hullabaloo started.

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    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    From: [email protected] (Jarmo Niemi TUY)
    Subject: Re: Finnish-Norwegian dispute for a change
    Sender: [email protected] (Usenet NEWS)
    Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
    Date: Sun, 30 May 1993 09:04:29 GMT
 
    Today's Helsingin Sanomat contains an interview of the commander of the
    Finnish Border Guards, Lieutenant General Matti Autio. Excerpt from the
    article, my translation.
 
    +++begin excerpt+++

    On Thursday Norwegian officials admitted, that private persons have
    helped refugees from Norway to Finland. At the same time it became
    clear, that personnel of Norwegian refugee centers have brought them
    shopping in Finland.
 
    Revealing this information was preceeded by a week's dispute about the
    movements of refugees and the actions of the Finnish border guards. The
    Norwegian customs had previously demanded an account of why the Finnish
    border guards had participated in the control of border crossings more
    than usual.
 
    According to Autio the more visible surveillance is due to the fact
    that they have in the control of the western and northern land border
    "detected gaps, that we have now started to close"
 
    "We noticed in 1992 that more and more citizens of third countries are 
    coming to Finland without the necessary papers from Sweden and Norway. 
    They came in particularly through N��t�m� and Nuorgam."
 
    Last year 300 persons were denied entry at the border in the north.
    This year there have already been 80 cases. Not nearly all have sought
    asylum. They have tried to enter the country for other reasons.
 
    According to Autio the border guards had already in the beginning of
    this year information about some Norwegians transporting refugees to
    Finland.       
 
    "For instance in January from Norway to Finland was transported a group
    of Albanians, of whom at least some have sought asylum here", says
    Autio. He refuses to give further details.
 
    "A detailed account of the events is being sent to Norway. The
    Norwegians may then publish it, if they want."

    +++end excerpt+++
 
    The general also claims, that the number of border guards in the north 
    has actually been reduced by tens of men, but the number of random
    actions (what is 'pistokoe' ?) has been increased. He says that
    deliberate exaggeration is associated with the "Norway affair", won't
    say who is  exaggerating, but hints towards the customs people.
 
    Ett� t�mm�inen tapaus.
 
    J(guess what) Niemi   Biochemistry, University of Turku, Finland, 
    [email protected]