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Conference turris::scandia

Title:All about Scandinavia
Moderator:TLE::SAVAGE
Created:Wed Dec 11 1985
Last Modified:Tue Jun 03 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:603
Total number of notes:4325

463.0. "Learning Swedish by example ?" by EAGLE1::BEST (R D Best, sys arch, I/O) Tue Apr 23 1991 18:38

  I'm hoping to take a vacation to Sweden next year, and am beginning to try to
learn the language in earnest.  Since I'm not sure I'll be able to
find formal instruction nearby, I'm making some attempts on my own.

  Would anyone who is familiar with both Swedish and (American) English be
willing to help me to check comprehension of some of my reading examples ?

  I was figuring to try translating fragments of various Swedish texts as
a way of learning the idiom and grammar.  I thought some good source
material might be some well known novel (e.g. G�sta Berlinger's Saga (sp?)),
or (if I can get a subscription) a Swedish weekly newspaper.

  The way it might work would be that I would occasionally post fragments of
text along with my (attempted) translation, and someone knowledgeable would
point out the errors.   Eventually, I might go the other way: Try my hand at
generating the Swedish equivalent of English.

  Presuming that I get good enough at this, I'm willing to do the same for
someone (Swedish) who is trying to learn English in a similar manner.

  If the moderator does not object we could so some of this in the notesfile,
or, if not, then by E-mail correspondence, or in some other computer-mediated
place.
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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463.1I'll help.ELIS::BROWNWed Apr 24 1991 03:5211
    Hi,
    
    I'll help if you like!
    
    It's probably best if it's done via mail though.
    
    You can contact me at the above address.
    
    Regards,
    
    Pete
463.2Some pointersTLE::SAVAGEWed Apr 24 1991 12:4110
    Keep in mind that learning to translate is a whole difference skill
    than learning to converse in a language.  For learning to read Swedish,
    I direct your attention to Notes 43 and 54 in this conference. Those 
    in the greater Boston area have a wonderful opportunity to learn to
    converse, described in Note 234. 
    
    Tapes provide a convenient way to 'hear' the language spoken. You'll
    find some suggestions on this in Note 56.
    
    Enjoy!
463.3I'm also willing to helpCOOKIE::PBERGHPeter Bergh, DTN 523-3007Wed Apr 24 1991 12:510
463.4Idea on booksOSL09::MAURITZDTN(at last!)872-0238; @NWOThu Apr 25 1991 07:3816
    Just another quick pointer.
    
    1)  Try a children's book (Astrid Lindgren, or other). If you actually
    plan to "learn by reading" without having studied grammar, etc., first,
    then you will be exposed to a simpler means of expression, less
    complicated sentences, etc. Idioms, of course, can be a problem in such
    cases, as well as slang---but that would be true of adult type novels
    as well. Then you should...
    
    2)  Get an English version of the same book (much simpler than using a
    dictionary). That way you can also peruse the English version of the
    book before starting the project. (That's my reason for mentioning
    Astrid Lindgren---lots of her books have been translated).
    
    Mauritz
    
463.5Another beginnerICS::KMATTSSONPedestrians Unite!Thu Apr 25 1991 16:5211
Two friends of mine and myself are planning on studying Swedish on our 
own and then getting together with a native speaker from my singing group
once a month to help with pronounciation.  

We're all "language nerds" so we'll all get into the studying.  I've only
been singing in Swedish for two years.  Now it's time to find out what I've
been saying.  8-)

If you get any good ideas, please post them here.  

>>>Ken
463.6Tin-Tin by Herg�TLE::PETERSONBob, DEC FortranMon May 06 1991 12:2525
A hard core live course is probably the best way.  And learning to read
helps you to read (signs, menus) but I was totally blown away by
conversation.  Tapes and live practice are the only way to achieve
conversational skill.

The Tintin (sp?) series of comic books has been a very good source of
intermediate reading practice for me.  I think I'd recommend getting
"bootstrapped" by taking a live course, tutoring with an experienced or
committed tutor for example.  Group practice worked for me by
translating childrens books (remember the Carl Larsson note in this
conference, fellow readers?) in parallel, and then reading paragraphs
to one another.

I by chance bought a tape/book for kids, Garfield's Picnic, put out by,
near as I can tell, Musicsaga.  An excellent technique, and lots of
fun.  Who would ever have thought n�gon was pronounced in one syllable,
"n�n"!

I took a break from studying and am now ramping to for study again.
ZKO residents who want to participate/help/take pity can email me.  I
took a break because I just needed to be able to read a book and know
all the words.  Going back I find I retained a lot and know most of the
kids words.

\bob
463.7Swedish language fundamentalsTLE::SAVAGEFri Jul 23 1993 10:15276
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    From: lchoqu%[email protected] (Lee Choquette)
    Subject: Re: More Questions on LEARNING SWEDISH
    Date: 22 Jul 93 13:53:19 MDT
    Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
 
    I'll post this for the benefit of anyone else who is contemplating
    learning Swedish.
 
    In article <[email protected]> [email protected] writes:

 > [1] How many noun genders: 1, 2 or 3
 
    Two, common (the indefinite article is "en") and neuter (the indefinite
    article is "ett").  There used to be a masculine gender, but unless you
    work with old documents you won't need to know it.  Certainly you'd
    never have to speak or write masculine gender, and if you ever read it
    it's not too hard to figure out.
 
  a dog		        a house		a girl		an animal
  en hund		ett hus		en tjej		ett djur
 
    Some dialects, such as N�rpesm�l, use genders, but don't worry about
    those until you're comfortable with standard Swedish.
 
 > [2] How many cases? Nominative    -Y or N
 >                     Accusative    -Y or N
 >                     Vocative      -Y or N
 >                     Genitive      -Y or N
 >                     Dative        -Y or N
 >                     Ablative      -Y or N
 >                     Any others??
 
    Just nominative for nouns.  Possessive is handled by putting "s" on the
    end, just as in English (but without the apostrophe), but it's not
    called genitive because there used to be an actual genitive case.  You
    don't have to worry about any cases unless you read *really* old
    documents.
 
   a girl's dog
   en tjejs hund
 
    Pronouns, on the other hand, come in nominative, accusative, and
    genitive (the nominative form is used for address, and the accusative
    for the other uses you've listed).
 
			Nominative	Accusative	Genitive
1st person sing		jag		mig		min, mitt, mina
	   plural	vi		oss		v�r, v�rt, v�ra
2nd person sing		du		dig		din, ditt, dina
	   plural	ni		er		er, ert, era
3rd person sing male	han		honom		hans
	   sing female	hon		henne		hennes
	   plural	de		dem		deras	
 
 my dog		my house	I understand you	You understand me
 min hund	mitt hus	Jag f�rst�r dig		Du f�rst�r mig
 
 > [3] Are nouns/adjectives inflected, according to case?
 
    No, but they are inflected according to gender and number (singular and
    plural), and whether the noun is definite or indefinite ("a" vs "the"
    in English).
 
 Singular				Plural
 indefinite	definite		indefinite	definite
 
 a dog		the dog			dogs		the dogs
 en hund	hunden			hundar		hundarna
  
 a big dog	the big dog		big dogs	the big dogs
 en stor hund	den stora hunden	stora hundar	de stora hundarna
  
 a red house	the red house		red houses	the red houses
 ett r�tt hus	det r�da huset		r�da hus	de r�da husen
 
 > [4] Are there continuous tenses of verbs (as well as simple ones),
 >     like in English? (e.g. I do, I am doing etc.)
 >     Is their use analogous to English use?
 
    Swedish mostly uses the simple tense, but in certain circumstances you
    might want to use a modal (helping) verb such as "h�lla p� med" and the
    infinitive of the main verb.
 
 > [5] Does Swedish use auxiliary verbs to form past/future/conditional
 >     tenses, or  does it simply modify base verb endings??
 > 
 >     e.g. je fais, je ferais
 >          I do,    I WOULD do   (...no change to "do")
 
    The main verb takes a different ending for the past tense, yet another
    ending (supine) plus an auxiliary verb for the perfect tenses, and an
    auxiliary verb plus the infinitive for conditional.
 
  I'm mowing the lawn.			I mowed the lawn yesterday.
  Jag klippar gr�smattan.		Jag klippte gr�smattan ig�r.
 
    I have been mowing the lawn every month.
    Jag har klippt gr�smattan varje m�nad.
 
    I will mow the lawn tomorrow.
    Jag kommer att klippa gr�smattan imorgon.
       or
    Jag ska klippa gr�smattan imorgon.
 
 > [6] Is there a subjunctive?
 >     Has its use virtually died out like English/Dutch or
 >     is it still quite alive like French/German??
                
    There is a subjunctive, but you don't have to use it anymore,
    especially in spoken language, although you won't sound strange if you
    use it in written language.
 
 If I were a rich man...
 Vore jag en rik man (lit., "Were I a rich man")...
   or
 Om jag var en rik man (lit., "If I was a rich man")...
 
 > [7] Are there formal/informal differentiations (e.g. tu v. vous; du v. Sie etc.)
 
    Not to the extent of some languages such as Russian.  I'm not familiar
    enough with French or German to know what they're like.  In Swedish
    you'd use the familiar with everyone except for old people, and maybe
    if you were a store clerk, or one of the knights who say "Ni!"
 
 > [8] Any other quirky formations, which are different to English?
 >     Separable verbs?
 
    What are separable verbs?
 
 >     Inversion of subject & verb?
 
    Yes, this happens all the time, not only with questions, but also when
    you put another word in front of the subject.
 
  You are coming home.		Are you coming home?
  Du kommer hem.		Kommer du hem?
 
  I came home.			Today I came home.
  Jag kom hem.			Idag kom jag hem (lit., "Today came I home").
 
 >     Anything else??
 
Yes, lots.  :-)
 
    Don't let me scare you off, though.  It's not that bad.  Just plunge in
    and don't worry too much about speaking perfectly right at first.  I
    still haven't got the word melody right, partly because the
    finlandssvenskar I converse with haven't got it right, either.  :-)
 
  -- 
  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   . . . . Lee Choquette . . . . . Never put off until tomorrow what . . . .
  . . .  [email protected] . . .  you can do today.  There might be  . . .
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a law against it by that time.  . . . .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    From: [email protected] (Tor Slettnes)
    Subject: Re: More Questions on LEARNING SWEDISH
    Sender: [email protected] (Tor Slettnes)
    Organization: Netcom, Sacramento
    Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 22:43:12 GMT
 
[email protected] (Brendan Walsh) writes:
 
 
   [1] How many noun genders: 1, 2 or 3
 
2 in Swedish & Danish, 3 in Norwegian
 
   [2] How many cases? Nominative    -Y or N
		       Accusative    -Y or N
		       Vocative      -Y or N
		       Genitive      -Y or N
		       Dative        -Y or N
		       Ablative      -Y or N
		       Any others??
 
    Just like English: Nominative and sort-of-genitive. Also Akkusative in
    pronouns (him, her, us, them), and occatinally Dative is found in
    certain regions..
 
   [3] Are nouns/adjectives inflected, according to case?
 
    Well, there isn't much of a case system. But no, not very much
    inflected between Nom. and Gen. Gen. is obtained merely by adding an
    's' usually.
 
   [4] Are there continuous tenses of verbs (as well as simple ones),
       like in English? (e.g. I do, I am doing etc.)
       Is their use analogous to English use?
 
    Don't know about Swedish, but in Norwegian there is one ("Han kom
    syklende" -- "He came bicycling" (by bike)). It is not used the same
    way or as often as in English, in fact, don't worry about it.
 
   [5] Does Swedish use auxiliary verbs to form past/future/conditional
       tenses, or  does it simply modify base verb endings??
 
       e.g. je fais, je ferais
	    I do,    I WOULD do   (...no change to "do")
 
    Auxiliary. Same as English.
 
   [6] Is there a subjunctive?
       Has its use virtually died out like English/Dutch or
       is it still quite alive like French/German??
 
    It only exists in certain old expressions (at least in Norw..), often
    in religious use  ("Skje din vilje..").
 
   [7] Are there formal/informal differentiations (e.g. tu v. vous;
       du v. Sie etc.)
 
    Dying out... Some very old and very stiff persons may still use it..
    :-)
 
   [8] Any other quirky formations, which are different to English?
       Separable verbs?
       Inversion of subject & verb?
       Anything else??
 
    Separable verbs: No, not like German.
    Inversion of subject and verb:
   In the case where you in English would say:
      "If you don't go out, you won't see the sun"
   The Norwegian equivalent (The Swedish would be simlar) would be:
      "If you don't go out, will you not see the sun"
      ("Hvis du ikke gaar ut, vil du ikke se sola")
 
   Also in questions and negating sentences, the word "Do"
   is not used as in English. You don't say:
      "I don't like lutefisk" or "Do you like lutefisk?"
   but
      "I like not lutefisk", "Like you lutefisk?"
 
 
  Anything else:
   Can't think of much. There is no word for "the", instead
   nouns have endings to represent a particular object.
   Not "the sun", but "sun-a".
 
    Hope this is all accurate for Swedish as well...
 
  -tor


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    From: [email protected] (Ahrvid Engholm)
    Subject: Re: More Questions on LEARNING SWEDISH
    Sender: [email protected] (Usenet)
    Organization: Stacken Computer Club, Stockholm, Sweden
    Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 05:46:38 GMT
 
In article <[email protected]> lchoqu%[email protected] (Lee Choquette) writes:

>I'll post this for the benefit of anyone else who is contemplating learning
>Swedish.
/.../
>a dog		a house		a girl		an animal
>en hund	ett hus		en tjej		ett djur

    You must have had a very modernistic teacher. I'd say "tjej" is slang,
    or at least half-slang. "Flicka" is the word to use if you don't want
    to sound "slangish".
 
> > [8] Any other quirky formations, which are different to English?
> >     Separable verbs?
>What are separable verbs?

    Like in German, I guess. Like "Detta kommer att sl� an" (This will be a
    sucess), but you could also say "Detta �r ansl�ende" (This is  
    remarkable).