| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
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| 430.1 | In Denmark and Norway | TLE::SAVAGE | | Wed Nov 07 1990 14:25 | 73 |
| From: [email protected] (Jon Taylor)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Religion in Scandinavia
Date: 1 Nov 90 17:30:42 GMT
Organization: Open Software Foundation
There is a BIG difference between the activities of the Official State
Church and the actual beliefs of the people! This is especially
counter-intuitive for Americans, who have the tenet of church-state
separation so solidly established in their heads.
I was amazed, upon moving to Denmark, to discover that most Danes
support the Folkekirke with taxes and yet very few attend. The very
idea of the government supporting a church is so foreign to an American
that it seemed positively shocking - I was relieved to discover that it
is possible to avoid the church tax.
But most Danes have the impression that Americans as a people are much
more religious than Scandinavians. Even though their view is somewhat
distorted by the attention the press pays to fanatics and fundamentalists,
I think overall they're probably correct. In a typically American way,
we support our churches in the entrepreneurial private sector.
The church in Denmark does serve other than religious purposes. The
birth of our two kids are both registered there, for example, even
though we were not members and did not pay the church tax. (I suppose
exceptions must be made for Catholics, Jews, and Moslems.) The local
church (Skovshoved Kirke) was quite a pretty place and - being near the
coast - was a popular landmark for sailors in the Oeresund.
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From: [email protected] (Stein J�rgen Rypern)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Religion in Scandinavia
Date: 6 Nov 90 14:06:49 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University in Oslo, Norway
We have had (still have, as a matter of fact) the same State Church
system as Denmark and Sweden, but things are improving (from my point
of view, anyway) An (annual ?) meeting of clergy from the Norwegian
state church some weeks back have been discussing the abolishment (sp?)
of this system.
This would enable the church to do their work, presumably saving a few
souls, without having the rest of us non-believers in the system.
It also have made me a wee bit irritated to hear norwegians priests
complaining about their low wages. The way I look at it, church and
religion is supposed to be some kind of 'kall' (what is the english
word - calling ?).
I hope they also remove the words about the schools 'building on the
christian values' or whatever the exact wording is. Of course this
only applies to primary and secondary schools (ages 7-12, and 13-16
approx.) The next step of education, 'Videregaaende' (like an US high
school ?) did have compulsory religious education, but most of the
emphasis on the lutheran faith is removed, and we did learn a bit about
all the major religious faiths of the world.
As you may have observed by now, not all scandinavians are 100%
indifferent to the problem caused by the close link between church and
state. But then again - there aren't many practical consequences in
everyday life.
Another "funny" (in my view) difference between the US and the
scandinavian countries is this "Pledge of allegiance (sp?)) thing we
see in pictures from the US. Why do you do this ? In norway it is
taken for granted that you have certain obligations to your country,
but we try to keep patriotism somewhat more low key.
Have a nice day
/Stein
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| 430.2 | Sweden's 'Bible belt' | TLE::SAVAGE | | Fri Nov 09 1990 12:07 | 34 |
| From: [email protected] (Ulf Dahlen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Religion in Scandinavia
Date: 7 Nov 90 17:18:42 GMT
Organization: CIS Dept, Univ of Linkoping, Sweden
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Lyle Davis) writes:
> If your comments are accurate - it is quite a surprise to me. We have
>quite wide belts (called Bible Belts) within America, many of them in the
>midwest, many in the south. You would not believe the "hell, fire and
>brimstone" fundamentalist preachers and what they get away with; nor would you
>believe the crowds of people they draw. Is there anything like this in
>Scandinavia?
There are indeed many churches in Sweden, some of them preaching the
kind of "hell and fire" you mention. But Sweden is a small country
(about 9 million), so the actual number of followers these churches
attract is quite low - but they do exist.
As free television is not allowed here, there are of course nu
religious channels. But the "Free Churches" do have programs in the
local radio channel (a non-commercial and regulated channel found in
most cities).
There is a "Bible Belt" in Sweden, near Jonkoping south of the lake
Vattern.
__________
Ulf Dahlen
Work: Dept of Computer & Info Science, University of Linkoping, Sweden
Email: [email protected], [email protected]
Home: Troskaregatan 51:23, S-583 30 Linkoping, Sweden
"The beginning is a very delicate time."
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| 430.3 | Two more views on Norwegian religious life | TLE::SAVAGE | | Mon Nov 12 1990 11:11 | 136 |
| From: [email protected] (Jonny Axelsson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: RELIGION
Date: 9 Nov 90 16:45:56 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University in Oslo, Norway
Yes, Norway is a rather unreligious country. But Norway does have a
"Bible belt", here it is called *the dark coastline*. It runs from
roughly the south tip of Norway to in the middle between Bergen and
Trondheim, excepting the cities of Stavanger and Bergen. While the
Easterners and Northerners are, well, quite heathen (or at least
secular), in remote villages and towns there are sins, fear, hypocricy
and religious fervor a plenty. Demons and outsiders are exoricised.
While Easterners and other tourists may deem these places picturesque,
they are quite unpleasant to live in, not to speak of growing up in.
Contrast this to the (eastern) town I grew up in. In my entire school I
heard of the *one* professed christian ("She's even carrying a
bible!"), just like the one exotic national (an adopted vietnamese) and
the one gay. There were probably several more christians (and, of
course, gays) that just were too embarrased to admit it, but still this
school had some 200-300 pupils.
How many Norwegian christians there are depends on what you are looking
for. There are only a few percent nationwide that attend church (even
so, there are built new churches all the time as some law states that
there should be some proportion of the number of churches and
population size, the actual attendance has nothing to do with it). A
large minority (I think 15%) considers themselves christian. An even
larger percentage will answer positive on more general questions like
"Do you think there is a creator?" or "Do you think the christian moral
is a good one". Some *90%* (I think) are members of the state
(lutheran) church.
The reason for this is: When this system was constructed *everyone*
became a member. To avoid being a member, you have to actively
withdraw. What's more, if at least one parent is a member of the state
church, the child automatically becomes a member. Since the procedure
to withdraw is bothersome, and only has a tangible effect if you are
also a member of some other sect (then it get a equivalent sum of money
as the average state church member, ie tax payer, gives to the state
church), most of the non-members belong to some other religous group.
Even given this, many christians are unhappy with the state church. The
reason is their lack of independence. Under this system, the "king",
that is the government, elects the bishops (the church nominates them).
A current example: This fall, several new bishops will be elected. The
new prime minister has all but pledged that some of them will be female
(this goes well with the majority of the church system, but in a way it
is not up to them). The ministry of church and culture has been
reorganized because the current minister of culture and information is
not a member of the state church (or any other religious group), so now
there is a ministry of education, science and church affairs. I
strongly doubt that this minister is overly concerned with clerical
matters, but at least he is a member of the state church (in a way it
serves them right, the previous c&c-minister may have been a good
christian, but she was a horrid cultural minister). So the christian
critics want to govern their own house, but they also want the huge
amount of money they get from the state each year.
Personally, I don't care which bishops they elect, but I don't want to
pay for their priests and their church buildings. The Norwegian church
is rich (not so tremendously rich as the Swedish church, but still).
Jonny
4th floor
Norway
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From: [email protected] (AAdne Bakkane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Date: 12 Nov 90 11:22:13 GMT
Organization: Div. of CS & Telematics, Norwegian Institute of Technology
From two articles written by Stein J. Rypern (SJR) and Jonny
Axelsson(JA), one get a rather distorted view of christianity in
Norway. For instance,
JA> ... in remote villages and towns there are sins, fear, hypocricy
JA> and religious fervor a plenty. Demons and outsiders are exoricised.
Usually young chistians leaves their fellow youths to their own. They
want to represent an alternative to getting drunk each weekend. It is
well worth to try the christian communities, they have much fun!
Christians may join the secular parties, go to the movies, play
football, dance, some of them even drink beer (but not to much, I
hope).
JA> Yes, Norway is a rather unreligious country.
Said, but true.
JA> But Norway does have a "Bible belt", here it is called
JA> *the dark coastline*.
--- It is not dark, "Bedehusene" (Christian community houses) are WHITE
!! :-) - And it is getting better to live there. The (old) christians
are not so pietistic nowadays.
SJR,JA> (.. about church building and visiting ...)
The average visit in a church on sunday morning is 100, I think. More
one special occasions, and at Christmas eve all churches are full 2 or
3 times.
JA> ..., if at least one parent is a member of the state church, the child
JA> automatically becomes a member.
Wrong, only baptised children becomes a member. A child is only
baptised if one of the parents is a member, and wants the child
baptised. If a child is not baptised, it does not become a member.
Furthermore, it is not difficult to withdraw. Just fill in a form you
get from the local government or Human Etisk Forum (registered as a
religious group)
JA> the previous c&c-minister may have been a good
JA> christian, but she was a horrid cultural minister
- because she wanted to reorganize the support to the Norwegian movie
production ? I think that was what Norwegian film needed ...
JA> So the christian critics want to govern their own house, but they also
JA> want the huge amount of money they get from the state each year.
Dont forget that the priests do a lot of social work also. And dont
forget that the priests are wanted by many more that those actually
going to the churches.
- AAdne Bakkane
--
o | AAdne Bakkane
/ \ _| _ _ [email protected]
|---|| || ||_| Rom G244, IDT, 7034 NTH, tlf. 594481
| ||_|| ||_ Rimol, 7084 Melhus, tlf. 872386
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| 430.4 | "Paper" Christians, rarely go to church | TLE::SAVAGE | | Fri Oct 08 1993 13:19 | 16 |
| From: [email protected] (Magnus Lycka)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated
Subject: Re: United States of Christendom
Date: 7 Oct 1993 17:01:24 +0100
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology
Sender: [email protected]
Sweden is very secularized. As everybody who has one parent that is a
member of the state church becomes a member at birth, most people are
Christians on "paper". Very few people practice this though. Among my
friends and colleagues there is only one regularly church going couple.
I think that perhaps half of my friends (aged about 25-30) say that
they think there is some kind of "higher power", but they don't usually
think that the bible describes this very well. At least 10% are
determined atheists. I don't think that my references are very far away
from what Swedes in general think.
|
| 430.5 | Christian radio in Sweden | TLE::SAVAGE | | Mon Oct 11 1993 15:04 | 14 |
| From: [email protected] (Mats Grahm)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated
Date: 11 Oct 1993 11:15:04 +0100
Organization: Resumix, Inc., Santa Clara, CA
Sender: [email protected]
We have just got our first christian radio station [in Sweden]. Some
US-inspired church, I think their belief is called 'success theology'
or something like that. They used to be a small, local sect, but a
very popular singer (she has won the European song contest twice), have
joined them. This was several years ago, and I guess they have been
expanding all the time since. I guess they will grow even bigger now
when they are broadcasting.
|
| 430.6 | Re: .2 - more on Sweden's Bible Belt | TLE::SAVAGE | | Fri Dec 30 1994 11:00 | 43 |
| From: US2RMC::"[email protected]" "Bj�rn Skolander"
29-DEC-1994 17:48:06.29
To: [email protected], tle::savage
Subj: The Swedish Bible Belt
1: The Swedish Bible Belt is more or less equal to J�nk�bing's County
in the province of Sm�land. This is for example reflected in the
popular name of J�nk�bing, which is Smaland's Jerusalem.
This area is generally considered to be the center of the Christian
revival momement in Sweden, as well as a poweful seat for numeral Free
Churches of different kind, of which some could be called
fundamentalistic.
2: How extreme are these people, and in what ways? Answering this
question would very easily include a number of stereotypes, which I
think would not be very helpful for you understanding of the nature of
the population of this area.
But one quality might be a strong concept of traditional family values.
3: How did it come to be regionalized, and why are these people
different from mainstream Swedes?
I have got now idea why we have a Bible Belt exactly there, but I am
told by my Christian sources, that the southern part of Sweden
(G�taland), generally is said to be more Christian than the rest of
Sweden. This fact should also have been verified by academic studies,
but I have got no references.
I do, however, not believe that the inhabitants of J�nk�bing's County
differ from the rest of Sweden's population. It's maybe just that the
concentration of individuals embracing a certain life style might be
specific to that area.
Here in Uppsala, where I live, we have got a Christian Movement called
Livets Ord (The Word of Life), which will probably have no difficulties
at all, to surpass the Christian fundamentalism found in Smaland's
Jerusalem.
Kind Regards,
Bjorn Skolander
[email protected]
|
| 430.7 | Commentary on .6 | TLE::SAVAGE | | Fri Dec 30 1994 14:19 | 47 |
| From: [email protected] (Jan-Erik Andelin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: The Swedish Bible Belt
Date: 30 Dec 1994 17:23:33 GMT
Organization: Clinet Public Access Internet, Espoo, Finland.
I think Bjorn's religious map of Sweden is very correct.
On the other hand, naming one Swedish region a "Bible Belt" is a bit
tricky, because it never can be an equivalent to its better-known
namesake in some southern U.S. states. In fact I think most "Bible
Belt" Swedes would consider most of American Christian fundamentalism
extreme and even absurd.
Bjorn is right in saying that a "Bible Belt" geographically can be
constituted by a high percentage of people having a negative stand on
issues like gays, abortion or the use of drugs and alcohol.
But unlike any American Bible Belt, the Swedish "Bible Belt" might be
value-conservative, but NOT politically conservative. On the contrary,
a very strong liberal, democratic and social issues-oriented movement
in Sweden has its roots here. Recently, a leading Christian magazine
published by several of the "Bible Belt" churches -- I forgot of the
magazine --, took a positive stand on the registration of homosexual
relationships, going into effect the day after tomorrow.
Historically, one should not forget that the country's leading liberal
party -- Folkpartiet -- started in the "Bible Belt" churches, who have
been challenging the real Conservatives, along with the peculiar
Swedish Lutheran state-church establishment, since the end of the 19th
century.
So if we want to talk about the "Bible Belt" geographically, let see to
that it is somehow constituted by religious facts or the religious
people themselves, and not by gay-right activists putting the same
label on everybody who has a critical view of their endeavours.
Erkki
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Jan-Erik Andelin * phone +358-15-575 4137
Hammarsvagen 9 * email [email protected]
FIN-06650 Hammars, Finland [email protected]
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| 430.8 | Swedes generally do not immerse themselves deeply | TLE::SAVAGE | | Tue Apr 25 1995 14:04 | 34 |
| To: International Swedish Interest discussion list
From: Magnus Hurd <[email protected]>
Subject: Swedish religion
There has recently been an interesting discussion on the list regarding
the Swedes being religious or not. My conclusion is that we (the
Swedes) are generally not. My background: I am 29 years old, and have
lived my whole life in Sweden's second largest city G�teborg (until Jan
1995). However, since I also have relatives in a smaller town on the
west coast of Sweden, I know people living in the country-side as well.
So I am a Swedish guy, and from my experience I think that Swedish
people are not religious. What do _I_ mean by religious? Religious=You
believe in something that cannot be derived from scientific methods
_AND_ acts according to this belief (for instance studying the Bible
very hard). This definition is not exact but catches most of what I am
referring to. I think you are getting the point. Now, the fact that
people in Sweden still are interested in christening, confirmation and
wedding, that is tradition, not religion. The fraction of people
involved in religious activities on a regular basis is a few per cents,
at most.
Still, there are indeed certain regions, for instance some places on
the west coast, where christianity is more present than else where.
Also, many people in Sweden have thoughts of their own on what happens
after death, what happened before birth and so on. HOWEVER, THIS IS NOT
REALLY EXPRESSED IN THEIR ACTIONS, and I would not call that religion
in the usual sense.
The picture above is a general one. Details may be wrong. But I would
be surprised if any Swede objected to this general picture.
Maybe this explains the situation for Americans on the list.
Magnus Hurd, [email protected]
|
| 430.9 | Faith held by Swedes: 3 stories | TLE::SAVAGE | | Wed Apr 26 1995 15:25 | 111 |
| To: International Swedish Interest discussion list
Subject: Re: Swedish religion
I think it is virtually impossible to quantify or even qualify the
religious faith felt by Swedes. However, it is possible to reasonably
estimate the religious practice of Swedes. The percent of Swedes that
attend church regularly and yearly have already been posted. Judging
by those numbers, it's safe to say that Swedes practice very little
outward religiousness in comparison to other nations. Almost all
Swedes would agree thatreligious based traditions are carried out more
for the sake of tradition rather than for any religious undertones. In
addition, the Swedish church has very little influence on state
policies and the social mindset. This can not be said about countries
such as USA or, certainly, any Catholic country.
In summary, whether Swedes are more or less religious than other people
is impossible to judge but, I feel, Swedes clearly are among the least
_practicing_ religious people.
Niklas Nordenfelt
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Having in mind the conclusion that Swedes are a nonreligious people,
one might think that they are immoral, confused and unprepared to deal
with the ultimate parts of life, or even life in itself. Some people
might be tempted to call Swedes uncivilized and primitive due to the
lack of a religious factor in our lives. On the contrary, I myself
think that it is perfectly possible to stay a lifetime on earth doing a
good and decent job without being guided by some religious hand-book.
Now, let me give an example of how nonreligious people can act in the
presence of death.
When my mother passed away a few years ago, my father and I were at her
bed. Neither of my father nor I are religious; there is no place for
God in our lives. When she finally died, my father insisted on having a
candle lightened. And we stayed at her bed for some time. We missed her
enormously. We were mourning.
Was the act above a religious act? Was it dictated by some religious
codex? My answer is No. I think there were two things that conditioned
our behavior, both of them associated with my mother. First, our
sadness and almost anger about her being lost forever. It was sadness
about not being able to talk to her any more. There was a strong
feeling of helplessness facing the facts of life. It was anger about
her not being allowed to share more time with us. She was away, but
still extremely present in our minds. We had to deal somehow with this
fact. Second, we wanted to honour her. She had (and has) a great value
to us.
All those not very fancy things we did together helped us through that.
I guess we conducted something like a ritual, known to take place among
many other peoples. But I do want to point out that there was nothing
connected with religion in our doings. For me it was a psychological
phenomenon, not a religious one.
Magnus Hurd, [email protected]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to sing at mass in the Stockholm Cathedral for several years, my
mother recently went to work as a deacon in ]rsta, and I got involved
in long an deep discussions about religion with my peers when I did my
Civil Service (vapenfri tj�nst). I would say that Swedes are just as
much in need of spiritual nurishment as any other people. Not that many
go to church to find it, and many feel uncomfortable when they do.
Also, I think that many Swedes are uncomfortable admitting that they do
have faith, let alone label themselves as religious.
When she studied to become a deacon, my mother interviewed several
"normal" people about their faith. Most people she talked to believed
in something, even if they couldn't describe it well.
I hesitate to label myself religious (mostly because people
misunderstand me), but have strong faith. I do not like to join in
reading the Christian credo (although I like to listen and
contemplate), it doesn't express my beliefs well. I and many of my
friends picked out the ideas we felt comfortable with when studying the
world religions in high school (Buddhism and Hinduism were popular),
and "rolled our own" from there. The disadvantage to that approach,
obviously, is that you can't easily find people with the same mix of
creeds as yours.
There is a new movement in the Swedish church that recognizes that and
strives to meet people in the "real" world, on their terms. The
thinking is that you need to help people explore their own faith and
make peace with themselves. Once you feel comfortable with your own
beliefs, it matters little what symbols you employ (the symbols
themselves are mainly educational). This new movement is fought by a
very conservative core.
I disagree with the notion that religion is that which cannot be
verified scientifically. Study the new findings in physics: there is
enough there to thrill the most spiritual minds. In many cases, the new
physics may have more to tell people of today than religion does, but
there is not that much disconnect between science and religion anymore.
For easy reading (if you understand Swedish), read Peter Nilsson's
books.
While on the topic of writers, Marianne Fredriksson is very popular in
Sweden, and her books build on biblical stories. Go figure...
Uffe
===========================================================
Ulf Wiger Phone: (907) 694-2660
VP Engineering Fax: (907) 694-5142
SPYDR-C4I International, Inc. Email: [email protected]
P.O. Box 770674
Eagle River, AK, USA 99577
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