Conference turris::scandia

    I haven't a clue to most of this, but would like to take on,
    
    "ute i sv�ng" -- taking a turn (in the woods)?
    
    I have a mental picture of someone swinging the arms while walking
    briskly.
    
    "ena h�rnstolpen" -- the whole corner post (in its entirety)?      
    
    This could also be a particular (special) corner post being carved.

I don't have my dictionary available so I can't give you a correct translation
in English for some of the words, but I am going to guess what they are trying 
to describe.


>>Det var pr�ng och utbyggnader �verallt.


I guess they are describing a building (house ?) with a lot of angels in it, 
i.e., there are things sticking out and on the other side these things leave 
small spaces that nobody really knows what they are good for. An extra room 
built after the main building or a garage can be considered a "utbyggnad", but 
together with the word pr�ng I would go for things inside a building.


     On this side they would be called pr�ng.

-----------     -------    -------
          |    |       \  /
          |____|        \/

     On this side they would be called utbyggander.


====================================================================

...han var ute en sv�ng i skogen.
-> ...he was ?ute i sv�ng? in the woods.
?taking a walk?

He was out in the woods. In the part of Sweden I come from it could
basically mean anything you do in the woods, walking, jogging, picking 
berries, ... Context will determine what he was doing in the woods. He was 
probably walking. "Modern" versions of "Mors lilla Olle" could probably say 
"han var ute en sv�ng i skogen" :-) :-) :-)

==============================================================================

>>...och den ena h�rnstolpen har han snickrat...
>>-> ...and the ?ena? corner post he has carved...
>>?one (specific form)? or ?juniper?

ena ~ one of 

I need more text for this one. I don't think he has carved anything in one of 
the corner posts. I think he made one of the corner posts. Some parts of Sweden 
use the word snickra for the things a carpenter does, not necessarily carving.

If you say "och i den ena h�rnstolpen har han snickrat" then I would think that 
he has carved something in one of the corner posts

============================================================================

>>...i s�nt v�der.
>>-> ...in ?s�nt? weather.
>>?such? as in s�dan(t)

s�nt = s�dant

in such weather.
in a weather like that.

/ Ulf

Ulf, I you're right about the snickra sentence.  I was confusing it with snida, 
which also occurs in this book.  The full sentence is "Soffan i h�rnet har han 
gjort och m�lat r�d, och den ena h�rnstolpen har han snickrat n�stan �nda upp 
till taket."  And perhaps the translation is -> The sofa in the corner he's 
painted red, and one of the corner posts he 'carpentered' (made) nearly up to 
the ceiling.  (The picture shows a tall oversized square post with a carving 
atop it.)

Clue: The "he" mentioned is, I should think, famous in Sweden, but he's no 
longer alive.  I'm sure I'll have more questions as we proceed through the book, 
so we'll be dropping more clues.

Another question in my continuing saga of translation....

About a boy:
Och Pontus suckade och t�nkte: Att man ska alltid sitta modell, timme efter timme, 
dag efter dag.  Och just pa* sommarlovet.

A literal translation gives me:
=> And he sighed and thought: That one should always sit and model, hour after
hour, day after day.

I'd tend to think this is a complaint about having to endure boredom, so I 
wonder if the translation ought to be "...That one should alway *have to* sit 
and model...".

Whaddaya think?

\bob

(p.s. c'mon now, I'm giving you more clues!)

the translation ought to be "...That one should alway *have to* sit 
and model...".

	F�r det var ett lath�rn, och det skulle set ut som ett lath�rn.
	F�r (han) fanns det inga motiv som inte gick att m�la av.  Han m�lade
	av allt han tyckte om, och han tyckte om det mesta.

I'd translate this as "For it was a lazy-corner, and it should look like 
a lazy-corner.  For (him) there was no motif which didn't do to be painted.  He
painted everything he liked, and he liked this the most."

Is this a reasonable translation?  We had some trouble deciding on choice of
translation for "motiv" (motive, cause, motif) and "det mesta".  And while I
understand perfectly "som inte gick att m�la av" I am currently under a mental
blackout for the American idiom of that - a blackout I experience more and more
as I learn Swedish.  

Another hint: The painting referenced featured the dog Kapo snoozing by the 
tile stove, and the sofa in disarray (my house should look so neat) after the 
painter got up from his rest to paint the scene he'd just been in.

                    <<< Note 374.6 by TLE::PETERSON "Bob" >>>
                                 -< Lath�rnet >-

>>	F�r det var ett lath�rn, och det skulle set ut som ett lath�rn.
>>	F�r (han) fanns det inga motiv som inte gick att m�la av.  Han m�lade
>>	av allt han tyckte om, och han tyckte om det mesta.

    There is some incorrect Swedish here:  "F�r (han)" should be "F�r
    honom".
    
    >> I'd translate this as "For it was a lazy-corner, and it should look
    >> like a lazy-corner.  For (him) there was no motif which didn't do to be
    >> painted.  He painted everything he liked, and he liked this the most."

    >> Is this a reasonable translation?  We had some trouble deciding on
    >> choice of translation for "motiv" (motive, cause, motif) and "det
    >> mesta".  And while I understand perfectly "som inte gick att m�la av" I
    >> am currently under a mental blackout for the American idiom of that - a
    >> blackout I experience more and more as I learn Swedish.  
    
    Close, but not quite correct.  In my 30 years in Sweden, I have never
    encountered the word "lath�rn", so I'm not sure it really is a word.
    I would interpret it to mean "a place to be lazy in", so lazy-corner
    should be reasonable.  The second and third sentences should be "To him
    there was no motif that could not be painted.  He painted everything he
    liked, and he liked most things."
    
    In Swedish, "det g�r inte [att g�ra]" carries a sense of impossibility,
    i.e., the speaker has been unable to do "it" and suspects that it can't
    be done.

Unless I mistyped it (I doubt it but don't have the book handy) lath�rn is
the word.  The book was late 1960s vintage and the artist and painting of
the 1800's.

Clearly it's one thing to understand the words and another to recognize the
subtle connotation of word groups.  Thanks Peter for your time.

                    <<< Note 374.8 by TLE::PETERSON "Bob" >>>
                               -< lath�rn igen >-

>> Unless I mistyped it (I doubt it but don't have the book handy) lath�rn is
>> the word.  The book was late 1960s vintage and the artist and painting of
>> the 1800's.
    
    As I was reading this, I seem to recall the neologism "lath�rn" as
    created by Carl Larsson in one of his books.  Is he the artist in
    question?

>> Clearly it's one thing to understand the words and another to recognize the
>> subtle connotation of word groups.  Thanks Peter for your time.
    
    Yes, but that's what makes studying a natural language interesting;
    otherwise it would just reduce to remembering words.
    
    As for the time, you're quite welcome.
    

Yes, it's Carl Larsson.  The book is a collection of his works, a series I 
believe, which focus particularly on his home and life in Lilla Hyttn�s (sp?).
As such it's an interesting look at (at least one person's) mid-1800's home
life.  The book is written, it seems, to be read to children.  The
large print text is one page per story with an accompanying painting.  There
is a sidebar of small type with more esoteric information about the painting,
the story or Carl Larsson in general.  The vocabulary in the large type is
geared to introducing new words at a reasonable pace page by page, except for
an occasional list of things (artist tools, cooking spices, etc) which an adult
reading the story can take time to explain or the kid has probably heard of 
before anyway.

I like his paintings too.

I'm gonna get in trouble one of these days posting words I can't translate!  
But this one is safe as it comes from a text describing Easter traditions 
(Gult och Bl�tt).

I can't find the meaning of "v�rt" above.  The full sentence is- V�rt att n�mna 
�r att gamla och svaga, gravida, barn och h�rt kroppsarbetande
var utdantagna fr�n de strikta dietbest�mmelserna -meaning- ____ to mention that 
the old and weak, the pregnant, the children and the hardworking were excused 
from the strict dietary stipulations.

This is a two parter.  Here's the second part:

You Carl Larsson fans (who???) may want to take a crack at this next text.  
It talks about how the girls took baths in the wood tub, which we can translate
but not quite understand why "washed" is in the past tense.  Gj�rde, "did", is 
almost a helper verb for tv�tta, and the helped verb is always supposed
to be infinitive.  This may require more formal grammar than anyone can offhand
recall... Och tv�ttade sig gj�rde man i tr�baljan.  We believe we understand
the meaning well- And washing oneself was done in the wood tub.  Of course
the past tense may never translate into English.  Would it have been acceptable
to write- Och att tv�tta sig gj�rde man i tr�baljan?

Min sv�vare �r full med �ler, how about yours?
\bob

    re .11
    
    "v�rt"="worth" (in this case)
    
    IOW, the phrase is "It is worth mentioning that..."
                                                                   
    As to using the past (perfect?) tense as opposed to the infinitive?
    Not being an expert, but this strikes me as good style. The infinitive
    variety seems more "formal" (though, perhaps very correct). The
    other "tv�ttade..." is more conversational.  Furthermore, the use
    of the past tense sets the time as "in those days" in a clearer
    sense than the alternative with the infinitive would have done.

    Pointing the above out does make me think of a certain manner of
    speaking that I have noticed in oral Swedish. It seems that sometimes
    a sentence is begun in one sense and then changed mid-way. When
    it is done cleverly, it can really be effective (irony or homour).
    In the above sense, the change in mid sentence was only slight;
    but nonetheless, strikes me as effective style. Another example
    (more radical) is from a famous TV interview with Stenmark, the
    alpine skier, some years ago.  He was known as being a man of few
    words, coming from a remote place in Sweden, etc. (I seem to recall
    that Bj�rn Borg---more of a jet-setter type---was there at the same
    time).
    
      Interviewer:  Well, now, Ingemar, what kind of things do you do
    in your spare time; what kind of activities interest you? (some
    pause---no reaction from Stenmark) Do you engage in any cultural
    activities? Attend concerts? The theatre? ...
    
      Ingemar:  Theatre...(pause )  I've never been. "Teater...ha' ja'
    aldri varit."  (Long & complete silence from Ingemar; interviewer
    uncertain as to whether more is coming; finally realizing that nothing
    more will be said).
    
    The phrase is probably not grammatical, but created an effect that
    somehow placed Ingemar in a class far above the false pretensions
    of superficial sophisticates, with exceptionally few words.

    It strikes me as part of the key is that the first part of the sentence
    creates a kind of expectation that the latter part then modifies.
    
    (All the above is pure subjectivity---I have no authority as a
    grammarian, especially in Swedish)
    
    Mauritz
    

                   <<< Note 374.11 by TLE::PETERSON "Bob" >>>
                             -< V�rt att n�mna... >-

>> I can't find the meaning of "v�rt" above.  The full sentence is- V�rt att
>> n�mna �r att gamla och svaga, gravida, barn och h�rt kroppsarbetande
>> var utdantagna fr�n de strikta dietbest�mmelserna -meaning- ____ to mention
>> that the old and weak, the pregnant, the children and the hardworking were
>> excused from the strict dietary stipulations.

    .12 is correct: "It's worth mentioning that the old ...".
    
>> This is a two parter.  Here's the second part:

>> You Carl Larsson fans (who???) may want to take a crack at this next text.  
>> It talks about how the girls took baths in the wood tub, which we can
>> translate but not quite understand why "washed" is in the past tense.
>> Gj�rde, "did", is almost a helper verb for tv�tta, and the helped verb is
>> always supposed to be infinitive.  This may require more formal grammar
>> than anyone can offhand recall... Och tv�ttade sig gj�rde man i tr�baljan.
>> We believe we understand the meaning well- And washing oneself was done in
>> the wood tub.  Of course the past tense may never translate into English.
>> Would it have been acceptable to write- Och att tv�tta sig gj�rde man i
>> tr�baljan?
    
    First a nit: "gj�rde" is misspelled (I can't for the life of me recall
    how it should be spelled, though; and I don't have a "Svenska Akademins
    ordlista" handy).  "G�ra" is, I seem to remember, an irregular verb.
    
    As an aside, get hold of a copy of "Svenska Akademins ordlista" (the
    word list issued by the Swedish Academy [founded by Gustav III as a
    pale imitation of l'Academie Francaise]).  It lists the current
    spelling of an awful lot of words.
    
    A simpler translation of the sentence would have been "one washed in
    the wood tub".
    
    The suggested translation (Och att tv�tta sig gj�rde man i tr�baljan)
    is not the way a Swede would put it, but it is comprehensible.
    
>> Min sv�vare �r full med �ler, how about yours?

    Another nit: the plural of "�l" is "�lar", not "�ler".
    
    "My hovercraft is full of eels"????  Is this what you meant to say?

That was my typo.  g�ra, gjorde, gjort.

Re: Eels.  I was trusting a friend on that, who doesn't speak Swedish.  I 
shoulda looked it up.  It's precisley what I meant to say, after the Monty
Python skit.  I also know it in Portuguese: O meu barco pairamte est� cheio 
de enguias.  Now aren't you glad you're reading this _educational_ note?  You'll
never be stuck for what to say when you're next in Portugal (or Cape Cod).

Den h�r papegojan �r d�d!
\bob

Hi

here are two sentences Bob and I had a little trouble with last week.
Any help appreciated.

1) Det �r klart, m�larn kunde ju inte heller l�ta bli att komma hit.

I said something like this: "It is clear that the painter couldn't let it 
be (or is it remain -- my german/swedish dictionary has bli = werden(=become)
and bleiben(=stay,remain)) to come here."  This doesn't exactly make sense
to me and where does _heller_ come in?


2) Och man d�k med ett tjut r�tt ner p� huvet i den kalla Sundborns�n. F�r inte
var den varm h�r inte.

Here the first sentence we got: And one dove with a yell headfirst down into the
cold River Sundborn. [The second sentence, the one giving problems, seemed to
be directly related to the first -- here is a go]  For it wasn't warm here.
The question arises because of the two _inte_. occurences.

Thanks for any help and guidance.

Chad

       <<< Note 374.15 by NORGE::CHAD "Ich glaube Ich t�te Ich h�tte" >>>
                               -< two questions >-


>> 1) Det �r klart, m�larn kunde ju inte heller l�ta bli att komma hit.

>> I said something like this: "It is clear that the painter couldn't let it 
>> be (or is it remain -- my german/swedish dictionary has bli = werden(=become)
>> and bleiben(=stay,remain)) to come here."  This doesn't exactly make sense
>> to me and where does _heller_ come in?

A reasonably idiomatic translation is: "Of course, the painter couldn't resist
coming here, either." (i.e., just like the other people that couldn't resist
coming).

>> 2) Och man d�k med ett tjut r�tt ner p� huvet i den kalla Sundborns�n. F�r
>> inte var den varm h�r inte.

>> Here the first sentence we got: And one dove with a yell headfirst down into
>> the cold River Sundborn. [The second sentence, the one giving problems,
>> seemed to be directly related to the first -- here is a go]  For it wasn't
>> warm here. The question arises because of the two _inte_. occurences.

The last of the two "inte" is there for emphasis.  The second sentence means "it
certainly wasn't warm at this spot".  (I believe that the use of "inte" comes
from the Swedish-speaking part of Finland: "Int' � d� s�, int'" [meaning is left
as an exercise for the readers!].)

Still working on Carl Larsson, eh?

This page was about the little island near town where
kids would swim and generally get a chance to act up away from the adults.
It was called Bullerholm, or perhaps Shouting Isle, which is apropos.  We 
alternate the C.L. book with a grammar book, and so the final two pages of
CL will take us a while.  Maybe next we could study my old copy of the 
gossip magazine H�nt  :-)

Hey, Chad, page 1 says he lived in Sundbornsby when he painted the pictures in 
the book.  (The adult-text sidebars say he also had an apartment in Stockholm
since he worked there often as well).  I guess Lilla Hyttn�s really was just the
name of the cottage/grounds.

                   <<< Note 374.17 by TLE::PETERSON "Bob" >>>
                               -< C.L. 2 to go >-

>> It was called Bullerholm, or perhaps Shouting Isle, which is apropos.

Two nits:

It should be "Bullerholmen" (or, possibly, "Bullerholme").  The word "holme" (a
small island) is normally put "in the definite form" (i.e., "prefixed by 'the'")
when used as part of a place name.

"Buller" means noise, not shouting.

    I've got a Swedish technical term. Maybe someone can provide an English
    translation for it. This has to do with binary number systems, like
    twos-complement, ones-complement, binary-offset, etc.

    The Swedish term I haven't quite figured out is "Tocken-belopp" or
    "Tecken-belopp" [it's a FAX that's a little smeared]. It describes the
    following number system:

	7	0111
	6	0110
	2	0010
	1	0001

	0	0000
		1000

	-1	1001
	-2	1010
	-6	1110
	-7	1111

    It's simple binary with a separate sign bit (0 = positive,
    1 = negative).
    
    A Norwegian colleague thinks that "Belopp" means "amount" and "Tocken"
    means "sign". Can anyone verify this or give me another literal
    translation and/or an equivalent English term?

    Thanks,
    Tom

    Re: .19 by CADSE::SMITH:
    
    According to my dictionary, the Swedish word "tecken" means: 1. sign,
    mark (token, indication). 
    
    "belopp" means: amount; sum. 
    [confirming what your 'Norwegian colleague thinks']

    Thanks Neil. "Sign-magnitude" seems like the corresponding English term,
    then.
    
    -Tom

>>    The Swedish term I haven't quite figured out is "Tecken-belopp"

Literal translation: sign -- absolute value, i.e., signed magnitude.

    Note that the word "tecken" (in Norw, "tegn") can often refer to
    "character" if you are talking computerese <e.g. "tecken-sett" =
    "character set"; "does that field call for alphanumeric or numeric
    'tecken'">. I have generally found that most dictionaries are lacking
    in giving a computerese definition of a word (try looking up "file",
    "disk", "register", etc.). 
    
    Notwithstanding the above, the meaning indicated in the last two
    replies may not be significantly altered; it would depend on the
    context.
    
    Mauritz
    

    Thanks everyone!
    
    -Tom

Well, now that I'm studying Swedish myself (Hi Bob!) and so it's time to 
bring this note to life.

I'm still in the beginning chapters of my text (_Swedish, An Elemetary Grammar-
Reader_ by Gladys Hird), so some of my questions may seem simple.

What's confusing me is this:

One exercise asks for the plural of:

	Den svenska historikern

Now, I'm not sure which declension 'historiker' is, min ordbok isn't clear on
that one.  But anyway, would the answer be:

	De svenska historikererna

	or

	De svenska historikrerna

	or something completely different?

Tusen Tack in advance!

>>>Ken

Another one.

I'm trying to translate:

	Every year in the spring the queen invites many young girls to the
	palace.


My translation:

	Varje a0r pa0 va0ren bjuda drottningen ma0nga unga flickorna
	till slottet.

	(with a0 being a with a circle over it.  I can't figure out the 
	 key combination for it!  Argh!)

How is that?  I'm not sure of the word order.

>>>Ken

          <<< Note 374.25 by HYEND::KMATTSSON "Pedestrians Unite!" >>>
                         -< Questions from a beginner >-
>> One exercise asks for the plural of:

>> 	Den svenska historikern

Translation: the Swedish historian

>> Now, I'm not sure which declension 'historiker' is, min ordbok isn't clear on
>> that one.  But anyway, would the answer be:

>>	De svenska historikererna

No

>>	or

>>	De svenska historikrerna

No

>>	or something completely different?

No.

The answer is:

De svenska historikerna

          <<< Note 374.26 by HYEND::KMATTSSON "Pedestrians Unite!" >>>

>> Another one.

>> I'm trying to translate:

>>	Every year in the spring the queen invites many young girls to the
>>	palace.


>> My translation:

>>	Varje a0r pa0 va0ren bjuda drottningen ma0nga unga flickorna
>>	till slottet.

>>	(with a0 being a with a circle over it.  I can't figure out the 
>>	 key combination for it!  Argh!)

>> How is that?  I'm not sure of the word order.

A correct translation:

Varje v�r inbjuder drottningen m�nga unga flickor till slottet.

Notes:

    1.	I have removed the redundancy from "every year in the spring"
	Your phrase "Varje �r p� v�ren" is a literal translation; a better
	word order would have been "P� v�ren varje �r".

    2.	Your translation of "invites" with "bjuda" makes the verb into
	an infinitive.  Also, "bjuda" is more like "command"; "inbjuda" is
	"invite" (one can, of course, argue whether a royal invitation is
	closer to a command than to an invitation).

    3.	"flickorna" means "the girls"

Enclosed please find a one-pager on how to make "funny" characters.

The "Compose Character" key on the VT2xx/VT3xx keyboard can be used to produce
special characters and letters with diacritical marks.

To produce one of the "weird" characters on a VT2xx/VT3xx terminal, type
"Compose Character" followed by a two-character combination.  To do it on a
workstation, hold "Compose Character", hit the space bar, release "Compose
Character" and key in the two-character combination.

�	~A  A~				|	�	~a  a~
�	*A  A*				|	�	*a  a*
�	"A  A"				|	�	"a  a"
�	AE 				|	�	ae
�	`A  A`				|	�	`a  a`
�	'A  A'				|	�	'a  a'
�	~A  A~				|	�	~a  a~
�	^A  A^				|	�	^a  a^
�	_A  A_  _a  a_			|
					|
�	C,  ,C				|	�	,c  c,
�	/C  C/  /c  c/  |c  c|  |C  C|	|
					|
�	"E  E"				|	�	"e  e"
�	E`  `E				|	�	`e  e`
�	'E  E'				|	�	'e  e'
�	^E  E^				|	�	^e  e^
					|
�	"I  I"				|	�	"i  i"
�	`I  I`				|	�	`i  i`
�	'I  I'				|	�	'i  i'
�	^I  I^				|	�	^i  i^
					|
�	-L  L-  -l  l-  =L  L=  =l  l=	|
					|
�	~N  N~				|	�	~n  n~
					|
�	~O  O~				|	�	~o  o~
�	"O  O"				|	�	"o  o"
�	OE				|	�	oe
�	/O  O/				|	�	/o  o/
�	`O  O`				|	�	`o  o`
�	'O  O'				|	�	'o  o'
�	^O  O^				|	�	^o  o^
�	_O  O_  _o  o_			|	
					|
�	"U  U"				|	�	"u  u"
�	`U  U`				|	�	`u  u`
�	'U  U'				|	�	'u  u'
�	^U  U^				|	�	^u  u^
					|
�	"Y  Y"				|	�	"y  y"
�	-Y  Y-  -y  y-  =Y  Y=  =y  y=	|
					|
�	ss				|	�	/U  /u
					|
�	!S  S!  !s  s!			|	�	!P  P!  !p  p!
�	!!  (Inverted exclamation mark)	|	�	??
[	((				|	]	))
#	++				|	\	//
�	<<				|	�	>>
�	12				|	�	14
�	X0  0X  x0  0x			|	�	C0  0C  c0  0c
�	0^  ^0				|	�	1^  ^1
�	2^  ^2				|	�	3^  ^3
�	+-  -+				|	

Okay, here's another one.

I'm trying to translate:

	One fine day when the farmer and his wife were walking across the
	meadow they suddenly saw their bull come rushing towards a tree.

My attempt is:

	En fin dag n�r bonden och sin hustru promenerda �ver �ngen, s�g de 
	pl�tslig sin tjur st�rtande mot en tr�d.

I'm pretty sure that I got the past tense of 'promenera' wrong, but I couldn't 
find anything in my book that said how to conjugate it!  Argh!


Tack f�r hjelpen!

>>>Ken

          <<< Note 374.29 by HYEND::KMATTSSON "Pedestrians Unite!" >>>
                               -< Another One. >-

>> I'm trying to translate:

>>	One fine day when the farmer and his wife were walking across the
>>	meadow they suddenly saw their bull come rushing towards a tree.

>> My attempt is:

>>	En fin dag n�r bonden och sin hustru promenerda �ver �ngen, s�g de 
>>	pl�tslig sin tjur st�rtande mot en tr�d.

Better, but still a literal translation:

	En vacker dag n�r bonden och hans hustru promenerade p� �ngen s�g de
	pl�tsligt sin tjur rusa mot ett tr�d.

Notes:	"en fin dag" ain't right; you may use "en fin kamera" but a day is
	always "vacker" (when it would be fine in English).  English is better
	at distinguishing nuances here; one can say "a fine day" and "a
	beautiful day" (and the latter is better), but in Swedish you would
	have to say "en mycket vacker dag" to get the latter meaning across.

	"promenera" is a regular verb; that's probably why the book didn't
	say anything about how to conjugate it.

	If you say "promenera �ver �ngen", I get an impression of people
	walking on air.  If you say "gick �ver �ngen" or "promenerade fr�n
	ena sidan av �ngen till den andra" is sounds a lot less like a
	miracle.

	Swedish, unlike English, hardly ever uses the "-ande" form ov a verb.

	Swedish has four genders ("maskulinum", "femininum", "neutrum", and
	"realgenus" {if memory serves}).  It's very difficult to make rules
	for when a noun that is neuter in English should be "neutrum" or
	"realgenus".  Neutrum uses "ett" and "det" as the indeterminate and
	determinate articles; "realgenus" uses "en" and "den".  "Tr�d" is
	"neutrum", "tjur" is "realgenus".  (I may have used "neutrum" where I
	meant "realgenus"; it's some 40 years since I was taught this stuff.)

	"St�rta" is more like what water does down a water fall; "rusa" is
	horizontal rushing.  (E.g., it's "rusningstid", not "st�rtningstid".)

>>>>	En fin dag n�r bonden och sin hustru promenerda �ver �ngen, s�g de 
>>>>	pl�tslig sin tjur st�rtande mot en tr�d.

>>Better, but still a literal translation:
>>
>>	En vacker dag n�r bonden och hans hustru promenerade p� �ngen s�g de
>>	pl�tsligt sin tjur rusa mot ett tr�d.

One of the lessons in this chapter is about using the reflexives correctly.  If
you say "bonden och hans hustru" aren't you saying "the farmer and his (another
man's) wife"?

I agree that some of the wording may be a little stilted, but I'm using the
same vocabulary that the book uses.

>>	"promenera" is a regular verb; that's probably why the book didn't
>>	say anything about how to conjugate it.

It may be regular, but I couldn't find out if it was 1st conjugation, 2nd, etc.
One thing I don't like about this book is that it doesn't have a master work
list, so you need to find a word, you have to go through each chapter and try
to find the word there.  And since the word list in each chapter is in the
order that it appears in the small story for that chapter, it's really not
easy.

>>	Swedish has four genders ("maskulinum", "femininum", "neutrum", and
>>	"realgenus" {if memory serves}).  It's very difficult to make rules
>>	for when a noun that is neuter in English should be "neutrum" or
>>	"realgenus".  Neutrum uses "ett" and "det" as the indeterminate and
>>	determinate articles; "realgenus" uses "en" and "den".  "Tr�d" is
>>	"neutrum", "tjur" is "realgenus".  (I may have used "neutrum" where I
>>	meant "realgenus"; it's some 40 years since I was taught this stuff.)

I thought Swedish only had two genders; common ('en') and neuter ('ett').  Are
the other two a throw back before the language was simplified?

Also, how do you say "to decide"?  I can't find that either.  I wish I had my
dictionary with me.  8-(

>>>Ken

          <<< Note 374.31 by HYEND::KMATTSSON "Pedestrians Unite!" >>>
                                  -< Thanks. >-

<< One of the lessons in this chapter is about using the reflexives correctly.
<< If you say "bonden och hans hustru" aren't you saying "the farmer and his
<< (another man's) wife"?

No.  If I'm saying "bonden och hans hustru", I'm referring to the farmer and
somebody else's wife.

<< I thought Swedish only had two genders; common ('en') and neuter ('ett').
<< Are the other two a throw back before the language was simplified?

Swedish has four genders, but only two forms of the determinate and
indeterminate articles.

<< Also, how do you say "to decide"?  I can't find that either.  I wish I had my
<< dictionary with me.  8-(

"Att besluta sig", "Att best�mma sig", "Att besluta", or "Att fatta ett
beslut", to name a few.  Common usages: "han best�mde sig [f�r] att g� p� bio",
"han besl�t sig [f�r] att g� p� bio", "kommitten besl�t att adjungera",
"kommitten fattade ett beslut".

          <<< Note 374.31 by HYEND::KMATTSSON "Pedestrians Unite!" >>>
                                  -< Thanks. >-

<< One of the lessons in this chapter is about using the reflexives correctly.
<< If you say "bonden och hans hustru" aren't you saying "the farmer and his
<< (another man's) wife"?

No.  The phrase unambiguously refers to "bonden"'s wife.

>>>>>    En fin dag n�r bonden och sin hustru promenerda �ver �ngen, s�g de 
>>>>>    pl�tslig sin tjur st�rtande mot en tr�d.
>
>>>Better, but still a literal translation:
>>>
>>>      En vacker dag n�r bonden och hans hustru promenerade p� �ngen s�g de
>>>      pl�tsligt sin tjur rusa mot ett tr�d.

	I don't know how literal translations you want, but my version
	would be:

	En vacker dag n�r bonden och hans hustru promenerade p� �ngen
	fick de pl�tsligt se sin tjur komma rusande mot ett tr�d.

	"to suddenly see"  is best translated "att pl�tsligt f� se"
	Then I disagree with Peter on the verbform -ande, it's not
	used exactly like -ing in English, but often after "komma",
	like in my example. I tried to think if there is a pattern as
	to when to use this construction, but I couldn't quite see it.   
		
>One of the lessons in this chapter is about using the reflexives correctly.  If
>you say "bonden och hans hustru" aren't you saying "the farmer and his (another
>man's) wife"?
	
	Note the difference here: 
	If the wife is subject (?, not sure if that's the correct
	English word, I mean if she is the one doing something),
	then you must use "hans hustru", it's impossible to use "sin".
	Thus it could lead to ambiguousity, and mean either his own wife, or 
	another man's wife, just like in English.

	On the other hand if the wife is object, e.g. "the farmer saw
	his wife" it would be either "bonden s�g sin hustru" (if it's his
	own wife) or "bonden s�g hans hustru" (another man's wife).
	
	Hans

Thanks Hans and Peter,

I appreciate the help.  I'm still working through a lot of it.  I'm sure 
there'll be more to come later.

>>>Ken

    Hi everybody,
    
    I need the swedish words to say "Welcome to Sweden".
    How would you say this ?
    
    G�tz

    V�lkommen till Sverige
    
    P

Can I mail part of an article (about 200 words) from a swedish newspaper to
someone who can translate it into english or german or french.
                                          --        -- 

tanks for any help
andre
ZUR01::JAUNIN (switzerland)