Conference turris::scandia

236.0. "Old Norse to Celtic?" by WELSWS::MANNION (Legendary Lancashire Heroes) Thu Oct 08 1987 09:53

These notes are taken from the JOYOFLEX conference, though they relate
    originally to a discussion in CElT (Can't get through to CELT at
    the moment, so I took this one instead). We never got an answer
    to this, and went off at a tangent as JOYOFLEX always does. Cand
    any readers of SCANDIA help?
    
    Phillip
    
                   <<< UCOUNT::DUA4:[NOTES$LIBRARY]JOYOFLEX.NOTE;1 >>>
                              -< The Joy of Lex >-
================================================================================
Note 366.0                    Old Norse to Celtic?                    19 replies
WELSWS::MANNION                                      23 lines  17-JUN-1987 04:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There is some discussion in the CELT notesfile about the origin
    of the name Dublin.
    
    One noter says it's from the Gaelic for "black/dark pool", so dubh
    + linn. This seems pretty good, as I know that the sames words (or
    their obvious equivalent exist in Scottish Gaelic.
    
    Another says that Dublin comes from the Old Norse words for the
    black or dark pool. Dublin was founded by Norwegian raiders in c.
    840, so historically this could be correct, but I know of no Germanic
    language which has similar words.
    
    Are there any experts in Old Norse out there who can help?
    
    I'm sure that some Norse words would have become loan words in the
    languages of the areas they settled, but for the same two to have
    been adopted by the speakers of two separate languages, and then
    those roots to have apparently disappeared - I find that difficult
    to accept without further evidence.
    
    Any views?
    
    Phillip
================================================================================
Note 366.1                    Old Norse to Celtic?                       1 of 19
MARVIN::KNOWLES                                      43 lines  18-JUN-1987 08:52
                     -< Gaelic words, Norse construction >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Theoretically there's one other possibility that doesn't depend on the
    extraordinary coincidence of loans outlined in your last para. The
    words might be cognate - related through a common ancestor, Proto
    Indo-European.  Evidence for that would be words related to the Gaelic
    words for 'dark' and 'pool' found in ANY other PI-E language group.  I
    think this is totally improbable. 
    
    As you say, Dublin was founded by the Norsemen, and Old Norse did
    indeed give Irish Gaelic many loan words.  But words left to Irish
    Gaelic by the Norsemen related mostly to commerce and the sea. Irish
    Gaelic has another (sometimes preferred) way of referring to Dublin:
    'Baile �tha Cliath' - the Ford of the Hurdles. So here's an idea: 
    
    	The city of Dublin was named by the Norsemen, who strung together
    	two local words. (Alternatively, a Gaelic-speaking collaborator
    	supplied the name for his Norse overlord - does anyone know
    	whether the Norsemen used collaborators? I thought rape and
    	pillage was more in their line.)
    
    Pro

    o  	this would account for the alternative Gaelic name

    o  	this would explain why some people say 'Dublin' is Old Norse -
    	 the components are local, but Norsemen decreed that they shd
    	 make one word - to refer to 'their' new city
    
    Con
    
    o	I can't imagine the Norsemen were so sensitive or wise	
	 sensitive - because it implies that they cared about
    		their victims' linguistic preferences
    	 wise - because it implies that they knew that place-names
    		are among the most conservative of words. 'Derry'
    		is still called 'Derry' by the local inhabitants,
    		although their conquerors (the British) insisted
    		on a new name - 'Londonderry'	
    
    o   I'd be very surprised if anyone could find any hard evidence
	 for the hypothesis

    
    Bob
================================================================================
Note 366.2                    Old Norse to Celtic?                       2 of 19
DEBIT::RANDALL "Bonnie Randall Schutzman"            24 lines  18-JUN-1987 15:47
                            -< either is possible >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Since Norsemen of various nationalities also settled in Scotland, the
    double loan is not quite as improbable as it seems at first blush.
    Also, travel between Scotland and Ireland was heavy during the summer
    when the weather and the sea were favorable.  
    
    The Norse were neither as violent nor as ignorant as they are generally
    portrayed; they were generally interested in settling down where they
    landed and in learning the local culture.  For example, the Danes who
    took over Sicily became so thoroughly intermarried and intermixed with
    the native Sicilians that by the third generation (the grandchildren of
    the settlers) the colonists no longer spoke Danish, only Sicilian. 

    The Norsemen who settled in Ireland were, typically, interested
    primarily in gaining farmland.  While a lot of land was taken by
    plunder, much more of it was gained by marrying a local (Irish)
    woman with a good dowry.)  In either case, the settlers usually
    adopted local customs.  
    
    So the Norse compounding of Gaelic words isn't that improbable either. 
    
    I will fish out my linguistic and history books and see what, if
    anything, they have to say about this.
    
    --bonnie
================================================================================
Note 366.3                    Old Norse to Celtic?                       3 of 19
WELSWS::MANNION                                      10 lines  19-JUN-1987 08:24
                               -< Foreign Gaels >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Re .1
    
    The Norse invaders did indeed use "collaborators". The became known
    in both Scottish and Irish Gaelic as "foreign Gaels" (I meant to
    look up the original but I had to paint the ceiling instead). The
    "foreign Gaels" were considered more fearsome than their masters
    in many cases. The Scottish form of this term eventually became
    the origin of the name Galloway.
    
    Phillip