Conference turris::scandia

    My first reaction is that you are covering too much ground in too
    little time.  I've spent a total of 7 weeks in southern Finland
    and could still go back for more (right away, even!).  You'll have
    enough time to see a lot of the tourist traps, but you won't really
    get to know very much about the people.  Sigh.
    
    Anyway, must sees:
    
    Stockholm (where I did my dash about and look trip):
    	- Old city (give yourself time there -- we were in Stockholm
    		    for a day and spent 1/2 of it there)
    	- any of the boat tours of the city
    	- If you have kids, the toy museum
    	- Something that everyone *should* see, although it isn't exactly
    	  a tourist spot, is where Palme was assissinated. (On Sveavagen
    at Olof Palme gatan, which appears on the maps as Tunnelgatan; you'll
    know it by the pile of roses.)
    
    Helsinki:
    	- Sibelius monument                           
    	- Church in the Rock --  Temppeliaukion kirkko
    	- Suomenlinna (Finland Castle)
    	- the design street
    	- If you're into walking, wander down into the embassy area
    	  (Kaivopuisto)
    
    (If you can break away from Helsinki, there is great scenery in
    Jyvaskyla.  Also Turku has a beautiful cathedral and a castle
    (Turunlinna).
    
    You said that the travel between places has already been arranged.
    Are you taking the ferry from Stockholm to Helsinki (or maybe Turku)?
    
    Jim Johnson

    We will be taking an overnight ferry from Stockholm to Helsinki.
    
    I'm not sure of the stops between Oslo and Bergen, as I haven't
    yet seen the final itinerary.
    
    Thanks for your ideas.  I realize we doing a lot in a short time,
    but it's still worth it.
    
    Debra Paget
    

    Since you're taking the ferry from Stockholm to Helsinki,
    be sure to be prepared to visit the tax-free shops on board
    and come with an appetite -- the smorgasbord (the ship we
    were on called it the "scandinavian buffet") is truly
    wonderful.
    
    BTW: Finland, Sweden, and Norway offer tax-free shopping
    to tourists within the country.  It is a little more
    effort, but worth it...
    
    Hope you have a good trip,
    Jim.

Some restaurants:

Copenhagen:

	At the end of the "walking street" (Str�get), you'll arrive
	at Kongens Nytorv (a very large traffic circle with a smallish
	park in the middle).  If you walk straight through the park,
	you'll see a wharf on your right.  This is the old sailor's
	port, Nyhavn.  (Ok, it's the new sailor's port...).

	On the left hand (North) side of the wharf street (where the sun
	is shining), you'll find a number of restaurants.  When I was
	there last month, I had a very good lunch at "On the Sunny
	Side" and an excellent dinner at "Den Lille Havefrue".
	On the Sunny Side has jazz in the evenings.

	A few blocks away, you'll find one of the best fish restaurants
	in Europe, Krogs Fiskrestaurant.  To get to it, walk back along
	Str�get a few blocks to a largish square (H�jbro Plads), then
	(assuming you're coming FROM Kongens Nytorv toward the center of
	town), turn left for one block.  You'll come out to a canal.  I think
	Krogs is a half block to your right on Nybrogade (but it might be
	toward your left on V. Stranden).  There's another good, slightly
	less expensive, fish place next door.

	... In Copenhagen, go to (I'm going to misspell this) Vor Fr�lser
	Kirke (Our Saviour's Church).  It has an incredible Baroque interior
	and a lovely corkscrew tower that looks down on the entire town.
	Across the street is a hippie colony, believe it or not.  It's in
	the guidebooks.  Get there by taking bus 8 (from the town hall)
	to the corner of Prinsessegade and Skt Ann� Gade.  You can also
	take busses 2, 9, 31, or 37.  Get off about 1/4 mile after the
	bus crosses the bridge into Christianshavn.  (It's less than
	a 1/2 mile walk from Nyhavn.)

	Downtown, in the city hall, you'll find an extrodinary mechanical
	clock (time, date, year, phase of the moon, you name it).

	Spend an evening in Skansen.  The good restaurants there are quite
	expensive (over $25).   Be sure to be there at 7:30 for the pantomine --
	the theatre is 140 years old and hasn't changed the scenery
	or repetoire in all that time.

	Shopping: go into Iliums Bolighus on Str�get for the real Danish
	Modern.  They know how to ship stuff.  When I was there, I bought
	a full set of Georg Jensen stainless silverwhere (from Georg Jensen
	on Str�get) for around $600 including freight.

	On the other side of Nyhavn from the restaurants, there is an
	old sailor's clothing store, Lodsen, that has very good quality
	all-wool sweaters at decent prices.  (Corner of Holbergsgade
	and Nyhavn.  There's a bridge across to the North side that
	was closed for repairs when I was there in June.

	Other things to see -- Lousiana in Humleb�k (45 minutes by
	train from the City) is one of the best modern art museums
	in the world.  In the old town, near Str�get, you can go
	up the "round tower" where Tycho Brahe helped start scientific
	astronomy. (I started writing "discovered the universe" but that
	is overdoing it a bit.)

Stockholm:

	I lived there for ten years, so I'm sort of biased.

	When in Gamla Stan (the old town) (which has become too
	much like Quincy Market for my tastes), eat at Zum Franciskaner
	on the Baltic side (on Skeppsbron) at the far South end
	of Old Town (go to J�rntorget and walk East one block on,
	I think, S�dra Bankogr�nd -- you'll be within 50 feet of it
	either way).  This is old-fashioned Swedish home cooking.
	Eat the daily special and try their "Swedish caviar appetizer".
	Drink Beer.

	For afternoon coffee, you might try to find the conditori
	called "F�f�ngen" (translates as "pride") which is/was
	located on Fj�llgatan on S�der.  It's pretty out of
	the way (though it's quite close to Gamla Stan) and
	I'd recommend taking a taxi.  The view is breathtaking.

	For a good (but expensive) meal, I'd recommend Restaurant
	Gourmet, a few blocks North of the center of town.  From
	the corner of Kungsgatan and Sveav�gen, walk North along
	Kungsgatan on the right hand (East) side of the street.  You'll
	pass the pile of flowers on the street corner one block up
	where Olof Palme was shot.  There is a nice store selling
	Swedish Handicrafts in the next block.

	If I remember correctly, Gourmet is on either Tegn�rgatan
	or R�dmansgatan, about 4 blocks further up, then a block
	or two to the right.

	Another excellent restaurant is Wedholms Fisk ("fish") on
	Nybrokajen 17.  Both restaurants have one star in the
	Michelin guide.  Gourmet published a cookbook (which I have)
	which is a fantastic labor of love (except it doesn't give
	the restaurant's address!)

	Also, I had a nice, not too expensive, dinner at a small
	French bistro on the NE corner of Sveav�gen an R�dmansgatan
	-- which is one block more or less from Tegn�rgatan.)

	Another very good fish restaurant (but not only fish)
	is Cattelin on Storkyrkobrinken 9 in Gamla Stan.
	It has the atmosphere of a French bistro.

	Another place I remember from my student days is Minerva.
	I think it's on Tegn�rgatan, several blocks West of
	Sveav�gen).  Their specialty is/was entrecote made with	
	horsemeat.  Another specialty was giant prawns (skampi).

	For an in-town lunch, you might try "Resturant Annorlunda".
	From Kungsgatan and Sveav�gen, again on the East side of the
	street, walk about 50 meters to a small street.  Turn
	left.  You'll see a staircase a short way up the street.
	Climb it.  You'll pass H:son (a major pornographer) at
	the top of the stairs.  But, going straight forward,
	you'll quickly come to a street Malmskillnadsgatan?.  Annorlunda
	is on the other side of the street.  Their specialty
	is salads (they were the first more-or-less vegetarian
	restaurant in Sweden).  They seem to have gone more towards
	"normal" food now.  The restaurant "Gr�na Linen" (Green
	Line) is vegetarian (sorry, I don't know where it is located.)

	Shop the department stores.  NK has a very good art glass
	department in the basement.  Not basement prices, though.
	NK's roof garden is a nice place for afternoon coffee.

	Get out of town to the parks (Djurgarden, Lill-Jans skogen,
	the skerries).  For a wonderful all-day trip, take the
	morning boat to Sandhamn, have lunch, walk around, and eat
	"steamboat beef" on the way back.  Sandhamn is the sailing
	center of Sweden.

On the boat to Finland

	Eat the sm�rg�sbord in one direction and the high-class
	restaurant in the other.  Dance and enjoy.

	In Helsinki, you might visit one of the many Russian
	restaurants.  Take your afternoon coffee in Fazer's
	Konditori downtown (Aleksanterinkatu?).  Sit inside
	in the serving room and notice the domed ceiling.
	If you sit in the right place, you can listen to
	conversations reflected from the other side of
	the room.  (An eerie feeling.)

Enjoy your trip.

Martin.

    As we still do not have our final itinerary, I've looked through
    all our papers and it looks like:
    	fly to Copenhagen
    	train to Gothenburg
    	train to Stockholm
    	overnight ferry to Helsinki
    	overnight ferry back
        train to Oslo
        train to Voss
        bus and ferry to Balestrand
        fly back out of Bergen
    
    Thanks again for all the input.
    
    Debra
    

    In copenhavn,  there is a unique little bar called SKARVEN that
    I absolutely enjoyed,  but the it was a ICELANDIC/FAROE ISLANDIC
    bar.  Extremely nice though,  walking distance from TIVOLI.  Tivoli
    is the amusement park that must needs be seen, as well as the beer
    gardens.
    
    In Stockholm,  there is a little red boat that is normally a hostel,
     I hear that the restaurant is divine.  Don't miss the scenery on
    the boat ride out,  right there is some of them most beautiful sights
    in the world.  And on the boat,  don't forget to try the sauna
    (pronounced 'SAW-OO-NA), as it is probably one of the best you can
    find that is not a family type one.
    
    In Helsinki,  if it is still early enough,  you MUST NOT MISS the
    market on the wharf.  Fresh veggies, fruit, seafood, etc.  What
    a treat!  The Olympic village is a nice place to visit,  and too,
    if you can get to Tampere,  you might get a ride on the boat or
    hydrofoil into central Finland,   I took the one from (!) I forgot,
    to Virrat, and was really impressed.  The area around VAASA is really
    neat too.  (these latest places are only if you there for any period
    of time over a month,  of course,  like a previous note said,  a
    few does doesn't even scratch the surface,  I myself spent 5 weeks,
    2 of which biking from bottom to artic circle and really needed
    2 to 3 times as much time.)
    
    In bergen,  take the tram to the top of (! my how one's memory slips
    after just a few years), oh well,  I don't think you'll have any
    trouble finding it...  You can take a boat to Trondheim,  I really
    like it there too.  Nice castle, etc.  And if you can take the train
    to NARVIK,  you might get to see some more reindeer too.
    
    And before I forget,  in OSLO,  you *ABSOLUTELY* must see VIGELAND
    park,  it's incredible!  Oslo is the most beautiful city I've ever
    been to in the world,  so I'm sure you'll find lots there,  with
    the museums such as the one with the KON-TIKI (actually 3rd rate
    compared to others) and the VIKING museum.  Oh well,  just bring
    a lot of cash.(!!)
    
    One last thing...  In my mind,  the best place to by souvenirs is
    in Finland.  They have the best crystal, silver, and linens in the
    world!  (anybody really disagree?)  And they will ship it home for
    you from the stores...
    
    	Have a very enjoyable trip...
    		
    			\rik  

	If you  think  Oslo  is  the most beautiful city you've seen, you
	must have been wearing dark glasses in Stockholm...
	Oslo can go hide somewhere...
	
	<PO>

    I must admit that the whole time I was in Stockholm,  it rained;
    yet I did get to see around a little... But truly,  you shouldn't knock
    me for a value(mine) judgement, should you? :-) 
    
    	/rikki  

    A restaurant in Helsinki that I always try to visit when I go there
    is Troika.  They have Russian specialties and Russian wine.  Also
    have bear stew.  
    
    For shopping I would visit Stockman, a department store.  They have
    everything and do a good job of shipping.  They have a nice selection
    of Finnish "rag rug" hangings and rugs.
    
    A visit to the Sauna is definately a must.  If you can arrange it
    in your busy schedule, try to go to a Sauna that is on a lake. 
    A hot Sauna followed by a jump in a cool lake is quite an experience.
    
    Bring back a tube (like a toothpaste tube) of Finnish mustard. 
    It is quite unlike any other you will try (it's sweet).  The flat
    sourdough rye bread is not to be missed either.

    
    Hi Debra,
    I would strongly recommend you taking the Silja line between Stockholm
    and Helsinki. It has the best accomodations and the best food. It
    is a wee bit more expensive than its competitor Viking line, but believe you
    me it's worth it (I've made that trip several times...).
    I'm sure you'll have a nice journey.
    Bo
    
     

    Hi, 
    
    We are planning a first-time trip to Scandia for 3-4 weeks starting
    around June 12th.  I have been browsing the notesfile and intend
    to send for the info packet from NYC, and got some good answers 
    already.  We have some vague ideas of what we'd like to do,
    and in general don't want to try and cover too much at once.
    
    A: one plan involves chartering a boat and knocking about the
       archipelago for a while. The only thing I've heard about
       these islands is that some are reserved for military use;
       is that a problem?  How could I make charter arrangements
       from here?  What restrictions apply?  A variation on this
       would be to sail up a coast, say Norway, and put in to fjiords
       renting bicyles to get around on land.
    
    B: We'd like to see a few cities, but would prefer to stay in
       low cost Bed/Breakfasts everywhere.  I've seen one guide to
       guest houses by Karen Brown, are there other/better ones?
    
    C: Another interest is bicycling, and I've read it's popular there.
       Seeing Gotland/Visby this way sounds fun, as well as perhaps
       spending a few days upcountry on the mainland. What festivals
       would be held on the solstice up above the arctic circle?
       Could we travel mainly via train and bicyling? Comments?
    
    D: What's the current exchange rate?  What are the cheapest 
       airfares/destinations?  (Copenhagen, Brussels seem major)
       Also, I've read that the prices to fly within Scandinavia
       are quite cheap.  Is this still true?
    
    tak,
    
    Mark
    
    

    Hi there!
    
    Re : .11
    
    Here are a few comments from the top of my head...
    
    A: Archipelago, There are several in Sweden but only one that is
    world famous, the one outside Stockholm. If you go to this one you
    can combine it with a visit to the Capitol of Sweden (The Venice
    of the North). It could be quite expensive though (like everything
    else in the three Scandinavian Countries...). Restrictions, if you
    just don't go near any radar masts it shouldn't be a problem, after
    all you're americans...                                            
    Norway could be a great idea but I don't recommend bicycles. The
    mountains around the fiords are HIGH!. To go 2 km straight forward
    you may have to bike 12...
    
    C: Gotland can be great in the summertime. After what I know it's
    specially 'designed' for people that want to have an inexpensive
    holiday (if you go to the right places off course). Go by bike is
    how you should travel around there. Gotland is not only Visby I
    think there are 75 Medievial churches and a lot of other stuff,
    so if you're intrested in History, this is a great place to go...
    
    If you wish to go in-country, I recommend a visit to Dalarna, a
    part of Sweden where you can really get a feeling for the Swedish
    Nature. It's situated about 300 kilometers North-West of Stockholm.
    
    Go by train is OK, but remember that train+bus from Copenhagen to
    Nordkap (Denmark to the North of Norway through Sweden) probably
    takes more than 35 hours! Sweden for instance is more than 2.500
    kilometers long! (And this is not like the Great Plains, it takes
    a lot more time to travel...)
    
    Going by plane could be inexpensive if you're under 26. Then you
    can travel between any two places for 200:-. If you're over it,
    it costs (I think) $300 to go Stockholm-Lulea two-ways...
    
    My recommendation is : Don't try to see it all. Decide if
    
    1. You wish to see the cities of Norway-Denmark-Sweden. Then you
    should travel the south of Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Recommended
    that you fly to Copenhagen or Stockholm (This covers a 'box' with
    a distance of 750Km*450Km). Then you will see the populated parts
    of Scandinavia (where probably 13-14 million people lives , Total
    17 millions...)
    
    2. You wish to see the nature of Scandinavia. If so I recommend
    you fly to Stockholm. Take a tour in the Archipelago. Then You take
    another aeroplane up to the north of Sweden (another 1.000 Km).
    From there you can go by train to places like Narvik, Nordkap (Norway)
    and Kiruna and the Great Wilderness of Lappland (Sweden).
    
    Exchange rates? You can find them in note 63...
    
    Paul.

re: .11:

    A: one plan involves chartering a boat and knocking about the
       archipelago for a while. The only thing I've heard about
       these islands is that some are reserved for military use;
       is that a problem?  How could I make charter arrangements
       from here?  What restrictions apply?

This is a wonderful idea.  Don't worry about the military restrictions:
the areas are well marked on the maps (and you definitely need maps).
If you're in the Maynard/Boston area, get in touch and I'll show you
my collection of sailing charts (somewhat out of date, but they should
give you a good idea of what's what).

There are companies that charter sailboats; perhaps the Swedish Consulate
could give you some addresses.  You're going at absolute peak high season,
so don't expect a bargin.

There is an English book on the Archipelago, "Northward, but Gently" --
I'm not sure if it's still in print, though.  (Check the library.)
    
    B: We'd like to see a few cities, but would prefer to stay in
       low cost Bed/Breakfasts everywhere.  I've seen one guide to
       guest houses by Karen Brown, are there other/better ones?

In Copenhagen, the Thing To Do is to go to "Kiosk P" in the Central
Train Station for low-cost accomodation ($15 and up for a single).
Get there around 8:45 in the morning, though.  Similar room-booking
services may exist in other towns, but I haven't checked.  You can also
stay in Youth Hostels (there's no age limit).  I'd make arrangements
by mail, and well in advance.  Again, check with the Consulate or
the tourist office.  I suspect that the "Guest House" books are catering
to the top of the spectrum.  The standard method is to stop at a house
with a Bed and Breakfast (or RUM "room") sign and ask.  In a small town,
asking a police will work quite well.
    
    C: Another interest is bicycling, and I've read it's popular there.
       Seeing Gotland/Visby this way sounds fun, as well as perhaps
       spending a few days upcountry on the mainland. What festivals
       would be held on the solstice up above the arctic circle?
       Could we travel mainly via train and bicyling? Comments?

No problem.  Every village will have some sort of "festival" at Midsummer.
You might feel less of a stranger in a larger city, though.

Train + bicycle is a good idea: there is a Rail Pass system that might
prove cheaper if you're going a long distance.  There are also a number
of strange discount fares.  Another good (but unknown) place for bicyling
and camping is �land, an archipelago located between Sweden and Finland.
This is still (relatively) un-discovered by tourists.  You get there by
bus from Stockholm to the ferry landing, then a four hour ride through
the north end of the Stockholm archipelago.  You can also take a night
boat from Stockholm to Helsinki (highly recommended).  All of the ferry
boats have fantastic (and very inexpensive) food.

If you must travel above the Arctic Circle, realize that it is either
desolate or touristy.  (Think rural North Dakota.  Think Very rural
North Dakota.)  Nordkapp (the top edge of Norway) is Europe's northernmost
cafeteria, if that's your thing.  Troms� on the Atlantic coast is much
more interesting.
    
    D: What's the current exchange rate?  What are the cheapest 
       airfares/destinations?  (Copenhagen, Brussels seem major)

Brussels is an overnight train ride from Copenhagen, and about 24 hours
on train from Stockholm (Leave Brussels around 6pm, arrive in Copenhagen
7am next morning, in Stockholm around 5pm that day).  Roughly the same
timetable from Paris (you leave earlier), Amsterdam, and Hamburg (you leave
much later).  Night Couchettes are a very inexpensive ($12) way to travel
throughout Europe.

Trevlig Resa.

Martin.

    Although its not a bike trip, I always liked the boat ride from
    Stockholm to Helsinki. There are two major lines that ply the route,
    called "Viking" and "Silja" (means seal). Personally I always prefered
    the silja line, as the boats are more modern and better done up.
    
    The trip leaves at about 18:00 from "Gamla Stan" (meaning old town, a
    small island in the center of Stockholm) and sails through the
    archipelligo arriving in Helsinki harbour at about 8:00 the next
    morning while breakfast is being served. You can then wander round
    Helsinki all day and catch the boat back that evening to arrive
    in Stockholm at 8:00 the next day.
    
    The cost was about $50 as I remember (SEK200) and the food in the
    form of a smorgos board (spelling was never a good point) is
    wonderfull.
    
    Hope you have a nice trip, its certainly a wonderfull area.
    You can then wander round

.12>		. It could be quite expensive though (like everything
.12>    else in the three Scandinavian Countries...). 

	Hi Paul, I have been thinking that there are *four* Scandinavian
	countries, but I may be wrong... 8-)

		Asko

		from Far, Far East...

    Strictly speaking, no...
    
    This was discussed at length when this conference was founded
    (regarding the name etc.).
    
    Finland is part of Fennoscandia, and a member of the Nordic Council.
    
    Besides, if you take it taht way, you could say there are five -
    isn't Iceland a member in Nordic council too?
    

    You must divide between two areas up here where I live.
    
    The Nordics - Sweden,Denmark,Norway,Iceland,Finland
    Scandinavia - Sweden,Denmark,Norway.
    
    What is then Scandinavia, the explanation I usually gives is that
    S. is the three countries speaking the 'Scandinavian' Languages.
    
    Paul.

    Re: Note .17:
    
    >...the three countries speaking the 'Scandinavian' Languages.
    
    I respectfully wish to correct any impression that Icelandic is other
    that a scandinavian language. It is very MUCH scandinavian, being
    almost unadulterated from the 'old norse' of a thousand years ago.
    Finnish is, of course, NOT a scandinavian language, except in as
    much as Swedish vocabulary has crept in (as English phrases have
    in modern French).

    Re : .18
    
    Maybe, but it's hard to find any Swedes that understand Icelandic.
    It has happened so much with all the other languages since that
    time so that Icelandic is a language that has the same base, but
    is almost impossible to understand.
    
    Paul.

re: .18, .19.

There's an old lingust's joke that says that a language is a dialect
with its own Army and Navy.  This is certainly true of Swedish, Danish,
and Norwegian.  These are, essentially, the same language with some
differences in pronunciation and spelling.  For the most part, an
educated <X> can read newspapers and novels in <Y> and, to a lesser
degree, understand spoken <Y>.  At the university level, native Swedes
can learn to understand Danish in about one week.  Norwegian television
is usually not subtitled in Sweden and v.v.

Also, the boundaries between the languages (to a lingust) do not correspond
to the political boundaries.  For example, the far south of Sweden speaks
a dialect of Danish. (The boundary between the two languages roughly
corresponds to a political demarcation line in the 1600's or thereabouts).
Bornholm (island belonging to Denmark) speaks Swedish.  The far north of
Sweden and Norway speak the same language.  Towns in northwest Sweden that
were on the ancient pilgrimage routes to Trondheim speak Norwegian, etc.

Iceland was essentially isolated from continental Europe around 1000 years
ago.  The continental languages developed at their own pace, but, because
of its isolation and, I believe, the existance of a body of literature
and a common political system, Icelandic did not significantly change:
the Sagas do not need translating to modern Icelandic (but we have
some difficulty reading 300-year old English without some spelling
and syntax changes, and Chaucer is almost completely inaccessable).

My own, rough, classification would be

Icelandic .................... Some Norwegian .........	Swedish and
				and Danish		 North Norwegian
				dialects		 dialects

The distance between Danish and Swedish is roughly comparable to the
distance between General American and up-country Scottish dialects
of English.

Martin.

   >Bornholm (island belonging to Denmark) speaks Swedish.

Well, I would'nt say this loud on Bornholm.

People on Bornholm speaks "east danish" dialect, allmost the same
as in the southern part of Amager (where Copenhagen airport is).

FWIW
Pelle

    Wasn't Icelandic "retrofitted" to the sagas to some degree?  
                         

    re the last 3, but especially .20
    
    Martin, you are out painting with your broad brush, again.  Thanks
    to a tip from Paul, I finally got back to this conference (missing
    since november). I see that I am needed; not the least of my duties
    being to bring some of your most radical statements closer to reality.
    That being said, however, I really do appreciate many of your good
    points, Martin.  I have plagiarized your "language being a dialect
    with an army" a number of times sisnce you first used it (in another
    base note).
    
    Now, to some language and dialect points.
    
    We have to look upon the differences between the major
    languages/dialects of Scandinavia from two distinct angles:
      1) Words, terms, endings, etc (i.e. "written") and
      2) Pronunciation (including the funny "tonal" quality found in
         Sweden and Norway, and glottal stops in Denmark)
    
    In other words, you have "written" and "oral" similarities and
    differnces, and they do not allways match.  I will propose another
    simpleminded chart:
      1) Written similarity:
    Icelandic                          Norwegian       Swedish
    		 Faroese            "nynorsk-----"      "Finnlandssvensk"
    				       Danish
                                    (<--------------------------------->)
    					range of mutual comprehension
   
    Note: Written forms (words and meanings) correspond to national
    boundaries (even where you don't have an army, like Iceland) 
   
          2) Pronunciation trends (major):
    
    (This I will not chart graphically, but in this area we see a result
    of some of the historical trends that Martin refers to.)
 
    The two major distinctions here are:
                         
    	a) The pronounciation forward in the mouth, with trilled R's
    (e.g., as in Italian)
    
    Examples: Icelandic, Swedish (except Southern), Norwegian (except
    south-western), Finnlandssvensk, and Bornholm.
                     
    A further break-down in this area would include the pecular "tonal"
    qualities of Swedish and eastern Norwegian (yes, believe it or not,
    the major dialect division in Norway is between east and west, not
    north and south). This is an oral peculiarity that we share with
    the Chinese, where tonal quality, in addition to stress, can
    distinguish meaning.  The way this tonal quality is used instantly
    identifies speakers from e.g., Gothenburg, Oslo and Trondheim.
    Icelandic and Finnlandssvensk do not have this (which, oddly enough,
    make them sound "melodic" to those who speak with a tonal quality).
    
    
    	b) The pronounciation back in the mouth, "in the throat", with
    (what we call "skarring") or "French-type" R's. (can sound a bit
    like French).

    This includes Denmark (except Bornholm), Swedish Sk�ne, Western
    Norway from rughly Bergen to Kristiansand. Obviously, there is a
    gradual change-over in some areas).
    
    The major distinguishing feature in this category is the Danish
    "glottal stop" (London Cockney and many American Indian languages
    have it). 
    
    The main point in all this is that when speaking/listening, the
    major gulf to breach is between the "a" category and the "b" category,
    especially with the Danish glottal stops verses the Swe/Nor tonal
    quality. E.g.,  most (eastern) Norwegians find spoken Swedish easier to
    understand than spoken Danish, though written Danish & Norw are
    almost the same, while Swedish has many more different words.
                                                                       
    Berlitz, some years ago, proffered Norwegian as the "bridge language"
    because certain surveys showed that oral and written comprehension
    was significantly higher (70-80%) Swe<->Nor and Da<->Nor, than was
    the case Swe<->Dan (20-30%).  This may have changed these days because
    of television.
    
    This was perhaps a bit of a bore, but I had to get it off my chest.

    Mauritz
    

    
    We are trying to plan a trip to Scandinavia for about a month in June.
    
    I have a few question to help in the final planning of our trip.
    
    Does anyone know of a Gotland Helsinki ferry?  I saw one in some
    brochure a travel agent sent, but the travel agent as well as Bergen
    Tours said there is not one.  
    
    In Finland:
    
    We are ferrying to helsinki from either gotland or stockholm.  We have
    3 nights in finland and want to get see helsinki - porvoo - imatra -
    and turku.  We are purchasing a rail pass, but there seems to be no
    rail to porvoo.  How does one travel to porvoo from helsinki and from
    porvoo to imatra.   We are departed from Turku by ferry on the fourth
    day.  Can anyone give suggestions as to what is a plan for this region?
    
    In Norway:
    
    What is Savanger like?   We are taking the rail from oslo to savanger
    and the ferrying from savanger to bergen and are debating where we want
    to spend the day/night in stavanger first or go directly on to Bergen.
    Any suggestions???
    
    

    There is a cruising ship Sally Albatross sailing between Visby
    and Helsinki. The boat makes three trips in a week arrival dates
    to Helsinki being monday,wednesday, friday (in the morning at 10).
    
    I don't know if they sell one way trips or if you are forced to pay
    of the return cruise. (the cheapest fare for Helsinki-Visby-Helsinki
    is FIM 840 according to their add in Helsingin Sanomat). But ask your
    travel agent to give them a call.
    
    		Oy Sally Line Ab
    		Kaisaniemenkatu 1
    		00100 Helsinki
    		tel 358-0-173 321.
    
    The easiest way to get to Porvoo from Helsinki is by bus. From Porvoo
    you might continue by bus to Imatra or take a bus back to Helsinki and
    then train to Imatra (if you prefer traveling by train). 
    
    		Pekka

    As for your Stavanger question - Bergen has more to
    offer tourists, especially tourists on foot, than
    Stavanger has.
    
    Stavanger is a nice city, however, with its old part
    of town with pitoresque small white wooden houses.
    I guess it depends on what time you get there - 
    you ought to take the boat ride from Stavanger to
    Bergen in the daytime.
    
    One exciting scenic attraction that you can get to
    from Stavanger is the Pulpit, an 800 meter high
    vertical cliffside straight up from the fjord.
    There's supposed to be a round trip there, going
    below it by boat (from Stavanger), and then to the
    top of its plateau by bus on exciting dirt roads,
    and then back to Stavanger.
    This trip probably takes most of the day.
    
    But if you're in a hurry, Bergen probably has more
    to offer the typical tourist.
    
    Henrik

    Hi, I am the other person travelling the route referred to in [.24].
    
    I thought it might be a good idea to give a brief summary of our
    plan and solicit any comments. We're trying not to
    do toooo much, we hope, and spending at least two nights in each
    area.  This will be a slower pace than previous times I have been
    to Europe, and much slower than most of the tours recommended in the
    travel books.  
    
    Copenhagen-Gotland-Stockholm-Helsinki-Dalarna-Balestrand-Oslo in 23 days
    June 12 to July 5, in roughly the following order (some depends on
    whether we can ferry direct from gotland to helsinki as mentioned
    before):
   
	Summary:

	Days Location
	____ ________
	3D   Copenhagen
	1D   travel to Gotland via Vaxjo crystal district/Kalmar
	3D   Gotland
	2D   Stockholm
	4D   Helsinki, Porvoo, Imatra area
	3D   Dalarna (Tallberg)
	5D   Bergen/Balestrand Sonjefjord area
	2D   Oslo
    
    Basically, we're using a rail pass and public transport, but will
    probably try to rent a car to wander at some point.  We are trying to
    find rooms in private homes but much of what we see available is hotels
    which are costly and we could use suggestions on where to stay. 
    It seems a bit cold there for camping, and we'd prefer not to carry 
    sleeping bags or stay in hostels which separate the sexes.  
    
    We already have fairly detailed information on most of the 
    train/ferry routes and accomodations which we are about to reserve.
    
    We want to see some of the major tourist sights, but not spend the
    whole trip that way.  In particular, we are curious about:
    
    - things not to miss along the route
    - staying on a family farm - one of the travel books mentioned this
    - renting a sailboat in the balestrand area
    - finding a real fishing village somewhere to explore
    
    Thank you for all the suggestions and help so far, it's been very
    useful!
    
    Mark

    re .27
    
    I have never been to Balestrand, but I would not assume that sailing
    is especially good there (or that sail-boats are available to rent).
    The west coast fjords are deep, stark and often without wind (I
    am now speaking of the inner arms).  Paradoxically, I could recommend
    the Oslo Fjord for sailing ( I have a sail boat & spend every week
    end I can on the fjord).  the inner Oslo Fjord is a bit like a medium
    sized lake (look at the map), with a number of small islands.  You
    can actually "get somewhere" and back on the same day, and there's
    lots of life about.  If you do plan a day for sailing, I would add
    one day for Oslo & subtract one day for Bergen/Balestrand.  Note
    also that the Stockholm archipalego and Helsinki area are also great
    places to sail.
    
    As to things not to miss:  Make sure that at least one of the two
    Oslo-Bergen rail trips is during daylight (htough at that time of
    year, we have a lot of day light---till about 10 pm).
    
    I think I have read that the farm visit bit is "service" that they
    have in Denmark.
    
    From your itinerary, you are not close to any fishing villages (that
    I know of) in Norway (the ones that have some character are in Northern
    Norway).  A lot of small ex-fishing villages on the west coast (within
    reach of Bergen) are more like small industial-type towns, without
    real quaintness.  The West coast of Sweden (where I spend my sailing
    holidays) does have a lot of small coastal villages, but you would
    have to plan a different trip for this.  I could really recommend
    a one-week leisurely sail from Oslo to Gothenborg(Am sp?).  Check
    to see if there may be any fishing village on Gotland.
    
    Regards
    
    Mauritz
    

And, if you do take the Bergen-Oslo train, you could hop off in the middle to
take the side trip to Fl�m riding the most spectacular rail line in Europe.  In
25 km it drops from the top of Norway to sea level, multiple curves, spiral
tunnels, waterfalls and goats five feet off the track, amazingly steep track,
everchanging views of the valley.  Stay overnight in Fl�m, a peaceful fjord
village with no attractions whatsoever except scenery, food, and a bunch of
trains to look at (I loved it).  Then ride the train back up the next morning
and on to your destination.  If you're really adventurous, you'll walk down and
ride up. 

    The side trip to Flaam in .29 is definitely a must,
    if you do go from Oslo to Bergen by train. But an
    even better solution, in my humble opinion, is to
    continue from Flaam by boat (a couple of hours on
    narrow fjords) to Gudvangen - an even quieter place. 
    
    From Gudvangen you can continue by bus (the same 
    afternoon or the next day, if youspend the night at the
    small hotel there) to Voss, where you take the train to Bergen.
    
    So this whole thing, often called "Norway in a nutshell", 
    can be done in one impressive day. I've taken visiting friends
    there myself, and they definitely haven't regretted the detour.
    Nor have I. 
    
    Henrik  

    RE: .29 and .30
    
    Yes. Don't miss it. I've done the journey in reverse -
    
    Bergen-Voss by train
    Voss to Gudvangen by bus (stop part way there for lunch at a hotel
       whose name I can't remember in a town I can't remember, but you can't
       miss it).
    Gudvangen to Flaam by ferry through the Sognafjord.
    Flam to Oslo by rail.
    
    There is a travel book _Eurail Guide to Europe_ or something like that
    that describes scenic rail routes, including schedules. This route is
    in its top 5 scenic routes in the world, I think.
    
    -Tom

    Yes, we have been reading a lot about the Flam-Mydral train in
    our travel books - is it correct to imagine that taking the 
    uphill route is as good as the reverse?  
    
    Also, what's in Gudvangen?  We had found info on Balestrand, but
    not much on Gudvangen.
    
    thanks,
    
    Mark
    

    re: .32
    
    Not having taken the downhill route, I'm only guessing that uphill is
    just as good. Sit on the right side of the train going up (get there a
    little early to get a good seat). There are views from both sides, but
    I recall sitting on the left because the right was full and finding out
    later why.
    
    Gudvangen? It has a general store/restaurant and a ferry dock. You can
    watch the scenery, including a waterfall that's across the fjord. Other
    than that, my couple of hours there (between the bus arrival and the
    ferry departure) didn't turn up much. I was on foot, of course, and
    maybe I just didn't know where to look, but it didn't look very
    promising.
    
    -Tom      

I am just beginning planning for our trip to Sweden.  Well, really it's a trip
to the Netherlands (for the convention "Confiction"), *maybe* Germany,
Copenhagen, plus Sweden.  I want to spend as much time as possible exploring it
so the other stops get minimal time for this trip.

Okay, a big question:  My Swedish teacher and some guidebooks say the G�takanal
boat trip is worth the time and money.  So how come no one has mentioned it in
this conference yet?  What has been the experience of your, reader, or of what
you've heard?  Given our schedule (9-10 days in Sweden) we must pick between the
canal trip (3 nights - not necessarily leaving the day we arrive Gothenburg) and
touring Sm�land and Dalarna.

Smaller question: we plan to travel by train (when not on the canal) in Sweden.
Will this get us to enough places?  Will we have to plan on taking the bus or
biking (gasp) as well?  Or should we bite the bullet and rent a car for a week?

\bob

       <<< Note 124.34 by TLE::PETERSON "Notable Minds Need to Knowt" >>>
                         -< G�takanal advice anyone? >-

    >> Smaller question: we plan to travel by train (when not on the canal)
    >> in Sweden.  Will this get us to enough places?  Will we have to plan on
    >> taking the bus or biking (gasp) as well?  Or should we bite the bullet
    >> and rent a car for a week?
    
    Unless you are into wilderness hikes or activities along those lines,
    the SJ (Statens J�rnv�gar) network of trains and buses will get you
    anywhere you may reasonably want in Sweden.  I see no reason to rent a
    car for getting to the places in Sweden a tourist would normally want
    to get to.

    Re: .34 by TLE::PETERSON:
    
    This conference does indeed have a topic on the G�takanal boat trip; it
    is Note 278.
    
    As for train travel, I can only speak for the 1960s when train travel
    was THE most convenient and economical way to get around northern
    Europe, not just Sweden. If the service hasn't deteriorated, you can
    do without the car and the bus; you used to be able to get connections
    to and from virtually any city or large town within an average of 20
    minutes.  

Thanks, I missed seeing 278 'cause when I looked in the directory topic under 
Travel I didn' think to look also under other topics as well.
	
I'll still be checking for answers to my first question, though I suspect the
real answer is to flip a coin if you can't decide, or let your pocketbook decide 
for you.  

Bob, get a two week Eurail pass.  I forget the costs but a three week one
is currently $398.  Unlimited first clas travel for two weeks anywhere in
Western Europe (except england/scotland/wales/n-ireland).  When I hit
Germany and skandinavia/CH/A/F in January, I'm Eurailling it.

Chad

    EurailPass		15 days: $340		Unlimited travel in 17
    			21 days: $440		countries; first class;
    			1 mo: $550		free or discounted bus,
    			2 mo: $750		lake steamer, and ferry 
    			3 mo: $930		fare
    
    Eurail SaverPass	15 days: $240		At least two travelers
    						together (3 people 1 Apr to
    						30 Sep.)
    
    Eurail Flexipass	5 days in 15: $198
    			9 days in 21: $360
    			14 days in 1 mo: $458
    
    Eurail DrivePass	7 days (4 train, 3 car)    Two travelers together
    			$229-279 (depending on
    			type of car)
    
    ScanRail Pass	4 days in 15: $159/$119    Unlimited travel on
    			8 days in 21: $279/$209	   state rail lines in
    			14 days in 30: $419/$289   Denmark, Finland, 
    						   Norway, and Sweden.
    
    						   50% discount on Danish
    						   private railroad
    
    Finnrail Pass	8 days: $135/$90  	Unlimited travel in Finland
    			15 days: $218/$145
    			22 days: $272/$181
    
    	All passes sold in the US (See your travel agent). Some time
    required for processing purchase requests. Prices are adult rates
    current at date stamp for first class (second class where slash is
    noted). Childrens passes typically cost 30 to 50 percent less.
    Some rail passes may require seat reservations (usually free or at a
    nominal fee) on certain popular lines.
    
    Rail-drive passes include basic liability insurance, unlimited mileage,
    and taxes. Driver must meet minimum age and other requirements.

There are also student Eurailpasses in 1 and 2 month increments for 2nd class 
travel.  Age limit is 25 (maybe 28) I believe.  These are of course cheaper 
than the "normal" Eurailpasses but are only for second class travel.

I travelled on a 21 day Eurailpass in January (I bought in 89).  21 day
pass is about $42 more this year than the 89 prices.

Chad

Hello everyone,

     My friend and I are planning a first trip to Sweden and Finland from 1th 
to 7th of December.  I've checked your notes about trip to Sweden and Finland.
But I can find very little for this time.  I would be grateful if you could 
answer the following questions.


�� Both countries (We will stay in Stockholm and Helsinki.)

        1. What is the temperature?
        2. How is the weather?  Snow or rain?
        3. Any good places of the night life.
        4. Any good places that visit for one day trip from these cities.
        5. Any good restaurants for typical or local for lunch and dinner in
           Stockholm and Helsinki.

�� Sweden

        1. Any bookstores that sell the language's textbook and tape between 
	   Swedish and Japanese or Swedish and English in Stockholm.
        2. Where can I get glassware of Jens Eltorp(a Danish artist?) in 
	   Stockholm? 

�� Finland

        1. Please tell me if the Moomin Valley is open in this season.
        2. Any saunas that we can visit in center of Helsinki.


I look forward to your replies.  Any ideas and information would be greatly 
appreciated.


Thanks,
Kazue

    For climate and weather, see note 168
    
    For suggestions in the Stockholm area, see note 235, especially reply .3 
    (for restaurants) and those that follow.

    >    1. What is the temperature?
    
    Anything from +5 degrees Centigrade to -15 degrees; it depends.
    
    >    2. How is the weather?  Snow or rain?
    
    Snow, rain, or dry and sunny. It depends...
    
    >    3. Any good places of the night life.
    
    I'm sure there are, but I'm out of touch since I just returned
    from a 3-year stay in the U.S.
    
    >    4. Any good places that visit for one day trip from these cities.
    
    Depends on whether you want to fly, take the train or bus or drive
    yourself.
    
    Alternatives:
    
    	Couple of hour's drive to Turku (Abo, �bo). The country's oldest
    	city (well, town ;-).
    
    	Half an hour's drive to Provoo (Borgo). Also a very old, small
    	town, with beautiful old buildings. At its best on the summer,
    	though.
    
    	A couple of hours flight to Rovaniemi; a town by the Polar
    	Circle. Good place to meet the Santa Claus, Reindeer, meet
    	Sami people, etc.
    
    	You could also do a day-trip to Estonia (Tallinn), however
    	I don't know what kind of visa arrangements would be needed.
    
    	You could ask the travel agency that has an office at the
    	Digital main office, Suomen Matkatoimisto Oy.
    
    	The people there are
    
    		Marja Koivisto, DTN 879-4092
    		Anne Palmu,     DTN 879-4080
    		Hilkka Tuusa,   DTN 879-4082
    
    		Fax: DTN 879-4088 or +358 (0) 434 4088
    
    >    5. Any good restaurants for typical or local for lunch and dinner in
           Stockholm and Helsinki.
    
    	Suomalainen Ravintola (The Finnish Restaurant) specializes in
    	Finnish ethnic food. It reasides on the Mannerheimintie street
    	(the main street through the center of Helsinki).
    
    	I can't comment on its quality, though, as I've never eaten
    	there.
    
    	In general you can find food from hot-dog stands via McDonald's
    	and Pizza Hut to Finnish, Italian, Mexican, Chinese, Japanese,
    	Russian, etc., style of restaurants.
    
    >    1. Please tell me if the Moomin Valley is open in this season.
    
    I'm afraid not; summertime only.
    
    >    2. Any saunas that we can visit in center of Helsinki.
    
    There's a 100% chance that your hotel has one associated with
    the hotel swimming pool (actually, it is the other way around;
    hotels have sauna's, and often they also have a swimming pool ;-)
    
    There are also public swimming pools with sauna's open all year
    around (one of the oldest and most interesting ones is the one
    on Yrj�nkatu, St. George's Street).
    
    ...petri
    
    

    For places to go at night in Helsinki:
    
    For some reason, Thursday is a good night to go out.
    
    Happy Days: Bar, food, dance floor
    Karli (sp?):2 bars, dance floor, some gambling
    Santa Fe: Mexican restaurant, bar, bands play there as well
    Fenja (sp?) disco, long queue to get in, but we were with someone 
    who knew the bounchers!).
    Forget the bar and club that is part of the Marski Hotel, in fact,
    forget the Marski alltogether! 
    
    Enjoy and observe local nightlife culture!
    
    Food:
    the best place was actually the Japanese Restaurant! There are Russian
    restaurants as well. The Greek was ok-ish.
    Kosmos is a good restaurant round the corner from the Marski.
    
    
    Flying Dutchman