| Group soc.culture.nordic
article 799
From: [email protected] (Hans Huttel)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Morna J. Findlay) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>Perhaps it is the fate of small countries traditionally dominated by large &
>powerful neighbours (I name no names :-P) to continually dream and whine about
>the past. What good does that do us now? Wasn't Norway (for example)
>dominated by Sweden for centuries? The "Scandinavians" all speak the same
>language and have had turbulent relations with each other. I've heard
>lots of anti-Swedish jokes from the Danes etc. Can Scandinavians tell us
>if there is anything for us to learn here - after all, Norway, Sweden and
>Denmark (Finland too) all seem to be prosperous and contented now.
>
>Morna
Well, Norway was dominated by Denmark for a few hundred years. Then the
Swedes took over. The "Scandinavians" do not speak the same language;
Danish, Norwegian and Swedish are closely related and mutually
intelligible, but not one language as any "Scandinavian" (e.g. myself)
can tell you.
Prosperous and contented ? I can only speak for Denmark; our
conservative government is unpleasantly fond of the lovely Margaret
woman governing the prosperous island kingdom in which I am now
resident. But that is yet another issue. We are not supposed to discuss
politics in soc.culture.celtic (I don't know about any such regulations
in soc.culture.nordic)
I think one of the reason why we don't `whine about the past' in the
Nordic countries is that we have now recognised that there some
important cultural similarities and common regional interests which tie
us together. But it seems to me (from reading the various postings on
Ireland) that there is a fine line between `whining' and `giving in'.
For some might say that `European' (read: EEC-ish) interests are more
important than Nordic ones.
While I was on holiday in Denmark not so long ago there was some
discussion on the status of the Danish language. Some had proposed that
Denmark should be bilingual, English becoming a second language - the
reason being that we "should be better at adapting a European point of
view". Some have also suggested that some lessons in primary school
should be taught entirely in English. (The way things are now, English
and German are separate, compulsory subjects. Those who reach high
school also have French (pourquoi ??) or Russian. Norwegian and Swedish
are not taught as languages, but at all stages students read texts in
those languages from time to time.)
Why English as a second language ? Not because of Maggie T.'s dubious
merits; simply because English is seen as the most important foreign
language.
"But hey", some might object,"- the idea is so ludicrous that it cannot
be implemented. English has never been spoken by the natives in your
country! And it's not even that closely related to the native language"
Well, the same could be said about Scotland or Ireland.
I will leave the discussion of `English as a second language in
Denmark' to others. I certainly object to the idea.
| Hans H\"{u}ttel JANET: [email protected]
| LFCS, Dept. of Computer Science UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!lfcs!hans
| University of Edinburgh ARPA: hans%[email protected]
| Edinburgh EH9 3JZ, SCOTLAND (the country with England holding on to its tail)
|
| Group soc.culture.nordic
From: [email protected] (Lyle Davis)
Subject: Danish (and Scandinavian) Nationalism
Organization: People-Net [pnet12], Del Mar, CA
A reposting from RelayNet's "Global" Conference:
Date: 09-21-89 (20:11) Global Number: 3337
To: ALL
From: JOHN COCHRANE Read: 09-23-89 (07:23)
Subj: CULTURAL DIFF.
I've been living in Scandinavia now for 10 years ("exiled" from
Scotland) and love the place. The only objection I have to life in
Scandinavia (read: Denmark, since that's where I am) is that for some
people it isn't an enyoyable life unless you're you're overly
nationalistic. viz: nothing bad happens in Scandinavian society,
everyone else does it wrong; scandinavia presents the archetype of a
progressive socialistic welfare system, etc. The people I meet from
day to day seem to be in much the same situation as everyone else I
meet (in Europe), but for some reason the national entity in
Scandinavia seems to have assumed the role of guardian, or moral
assessor of everyone else, which seems to me very strange to say the
least.
PCRelay:DKTELCOM -> RelayNet (tm)
Dansk Telecom Service - Denmark - 31 514043
I suspect the high degree of nationalism that you see (which you would
also see in Norway) has a lot to do with the national background. You
must remember that at one time Denmark was a very powerful nation. In
terms of strength and power it is but a mere shadow of its former self.
Prior to the Napoleonic wars she was a great nation. After the wars
here economy was drained so badly she had to declare bankruptcy in
1813; she lost Norway as well as many of her other territories. It was
not until mid to late 1800's that Denmark started to put herself back
on an even keel.
In the 1870's they developed the farm cooperative idea that became the
model for agriculture throughout the world; they had developed a
phenomenal railway system that also became a model for other nations;
as they recovered from the bankruptcy and became, once again, a
reasonable sized trading partner, you began to see this sense of
nationalism develop.
Still later, in 1901, Denmark changed its governmental system to a
parliamentary democracy. She retained her king, but the political
power was now vested in the people. More national pride ensued. This
is "our country" (not some feudal estate of a gaggle of aristrocrats
and the monarchy).
A new Education Act was passed which remained the basis of
Denmark's education until 1958. The Folk High School concept was
developed, a phenomenon that many countries have tried to duplicate but
only Scandinavia seems to be able to pull off. (For those unfamiliar
with Folk High Schools, this is, essentially, a school, strictly
voluntary, with no grades, no credits, no examinations. It is a rural
boarding school where the intent is not to learn how to make a living,
but how to live and enjoy life).
Denmark is recognized as a country with one of the highest
standards of living in Europe (although rapidly becoming one of the
most expensive as well). High quality housing is a priority, the
environment preservation is a priority, the social programs are
recognized world wide; cancer and other catastrophic diseases do not
bankrupt a family in Denmark.
Add all these elements up and I can surely understand why the Danes are
justifiably pround of their country and themselves as a people. Add
the final element of having been occupied during WWII and you have that
much more understanding of what it means to be free and to have a
nation that cares so much for its own.
Sorry, didn't mean to ramble on so; but I think *I* do understand why
she is a proud and nationalistic country. She earned the right to
be.
Best regards,
Lyle E. Davis
UUCP: uunet!serene!pnet12!lyled
ARPA: [email protected]
|
| The Welfare State in Scandinavia is alive and well, thank you very
much. This is one of the interesting news items from the Danish list
today (in Danish, so sorry).
The key-figures for the economy came out today, and every single one
has moved positively since the last time, and the last time saw the
same trend, so the recovery is now so strong that the GNP is growing
twice as fast as in the EU, the inflation is under 2% and unemployment
is falling, although not as fast as hoped for. The balance of payments
is record high and increasing, meaning that Denmark can in less than 10
years repay its entire foreign dept, or in year 2000. In 1990 the debt
was somewhere around 70% of the GNP--so you can see this is awesome
development.
And, what about taxes, social programs, etc: well here is a quote
(with translation):
Samme undersoegelse viser ioevrigt, at danskerne generelt ved mere om
samfundsoekonomi end normalt antaget, at ser overraskende positivt paa
velfaerdstat og politikere, og enda er rede til at betale mere i skat
hvis det hjaelper arbejdsloese og loeser samfundets problemer. Man ser
helst, at statens gaeld bliver bragt ned foer man begynder at saenke
skatterne.
The same study shows furthermore, that the Danes know more about the
national economy than previously assumed, they are surprisingly and
overwhelmingly positive towards both the welfare state and the
politicians [!!!], and are even ready to pay more [!!!] in taxes if
that would help alleviate the unemployment problem and or other social
problems. The population wishes rather that the State debt be reduced
before the taxes will begin to be reduced.
Interesting, wouldn't you say?
Ragnar Steingrimsson
--
|
| ========================================================================
ODENSE, Denmark (Reuter) - Why does Denmark, a rich, secure,
tolerant and fun-loving society, have one of the highest suicide
rates in the world?
There are no sure explanations to the ``Danish paradox'' but
Dr Unni Bille-Brahe, the country's leading suicide researcher,
says she has found one common denominator in most suicides:
loneliness.
``Social integration has declined in the past 30 years,
family ties have become looser and we have become increasingly
indifferent to other people. Many Danes feel isolated and
lonely,'' she said.
Denmark's suicide rate, the second-highest in Europe, also
raises troubling questions about the Danish welfare state and
the view shared by many Danes that life should be easy and fun.
``People expect the state to solve all their problems and
they get all the more frustrated when they realize that this is
not possible,'' Bille-Brahe, head of the suicide research center
at Odense University, said in an interview.
The latest available European data from the World Health
Organization (WHO) shows an annual Danish suicide rate of 28 per
100,000 inhabitants, second only to Hungary's 44 per 100,000.
By contrast, a Pennsylvania University survey last year
which looked at 36 factors, including welfare and women's
rights, concluded that Denmark has the world's highest quality
of life followed by Norway and Sweden.
Suicide researchers talk of a ``Scandinavian paradox.''
Swedes and Norwegians, with roughly the same cultural roots,
standard of living and social security as the Danes, are not
abnormally suicide-prone.
Norway, in the lower half of the WHO statistics, had 15.5
and Sweden had 18.5 suicides per 100,000.
It is Sweden and to a lesser extent Norway which have a
reputation for melancholy and gloom, partly earned through the
works of Norwegian playwright Henrik Ibsen and Swedish film
director Ingmar Bergman.
Rather than gloom, the Danes are known for ``fun'' things
like the Tivoli amusement park, the Lego toy building blocks and
comedian Victor Borge.
Nordic neighbors often regard the extremely secular Danes
with a mixture of envy -- as perpetual party-goers who drink
more alcohol, smoke more, eat more fat food and die younger but
possibly happier.
But Bille-Brahe said having to have a good time could be
depressing. ``Many Danes are deep down inside not so happy, but
being carefree and jolly is part of the Danish identity and many
bend over backwards to live up to this image,'' she said.
Dr Anne Knudsen, a Danish ethnographer, said her
compatriots' deep-rooted tolerance could also have a dark side.
``...It is typical that most of us are in doubt whether to
prevent a friend from committing suicide. (We argue) Isn't it
his own choice?'' Knudsen wrote in an essay.
Danish openness allows young and old to kiss in public,
homosexuals to get married and neighbors to say hello without
blushing when they happen to meet on Friday evening in the
pornographic section of a video rental shop, she wrote.
``We can talk about sex but not about love, especially not
unhappy love. People conceal their own worst problem behind talk
about problems they can cope with,'' Knudsen wrote.
Indian anthropologist Prakash Reddy spent four months in a
small Danish village and published a controversial book called
``Danes are like that!''
Reddy said he found a neat and cosy little society, rigid
and seemingly full of down-to-earth but lonely people, isolated
from each other and lacking much sense of religion.
Bille-Brahe agreed that Danes are less involved in church
and community work than Swedes and Norwegians which might partly
explain the area's big differences in suicide rates.
Some 1,200 Danes commit suicide each year. The rate is
little changed since 1970 but is below a 1980 peak. For every
suicide there are 10 attempts. Two thirds try again.
In Denmark, more deaths are caused by suicide than the total
of deaths due to traffic accidents, AIDS, drugs and murder.
Prime Minister Poul Nyrup Rasmussen's only daughter
committed suicide last year, an event which Bille-Brahe said
helped to break decades of silence in Denmark about the issue.
Prevention clinics that counsel those who have attempted to
kill themselves have opened in Odense and Copenhagen and media
coverage is helping to raise public awareness.
Men remain more prone to suicide than women but there is a
rise in the female rate running almost exactly parallel with
statistical trends for divorce and married women in the job
market, Bille-Brahe said.
Women in their fifties have emerged as a risk group, perhaps
because they were not brought up to cope with the social changes
that started in the 1960s, she said.
The most recent trend is a rise in the suicide rate for
people around 40, the baby boomers who grew up in a time of
material growth and hopes for a ``perfect'' society and are now
disillusioned by the way things turned out, Bille-Brahe said.
[See also: note 366.14 for suicide statistics.]
|