| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 10.1 | Replies extracted from SEXETERA.NOT | TLE::SAVAGE | | Wed Dec 18 1985 13:47 | 67 |
| ================================================================================
NONAME""::HSC003$DUA2:[NOTES]SEXETERA.NOT;69
VLNVAX::DDANTONIO The world's favorite pastime 13-DEC-1985 13:54
Note 180.1 Swedish sexetera 1 of 4
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All in all, it sounds like a more healthy attitude toward things sexual.
I have always felt that the American attitude was sort of hypocritical
in that it was ok to show off your body on the beach where others are doing
the same thing, but if you go the store afterward, you are considered
underclothed! It seems a shame that poeple here are taught that their
bodies are a source of shame and embarrassment!
DDA
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NONAME""::HSC003$DUA2:[NOTES]SEXETERA.NOT;69
WHOARU::WONG The world's favorite pastime 13-DEC-1985 23:52
Note 180.2 Swedish sexetera 2 of 4
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This reminds of a sexually-liberated lady I met who parked herself in my
roommate's room during senior week. She had spent about six months in Sweden
and she had told me about the nude beaches there. She went sunbathing
topless alot and by the time she came home she didn't think twice about it.
(why she didn't bother going totally nude, I don't know, and no, she didn't
show me her lack of a tan line.) She had said that it felt more comfortable
and alot more fun.
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NONAME""::HSC003$DUA2:[NOTES]SEXETERA.NOT;69
BABEL::SAVAGE The world's favorite pastime 14-DEC-1985 11:33
Note 180.3 Swedish sexetera 3 of 4
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Re: .2:
Nowadays, you don't have to go to Sweden to find 'nude beaches' (meaning,
I assume from context, the absence of clothing on the bathers not of
vegetation).
But Sweden does have 'skinny dipping' traditions going back to before the
invention of the 'bathing costume.' Once of the most well known was the
resort of Varberg, on the Swedish west coast. In olden days, however, the
sexes were kept separate by a modest fence which extended part way out into
the water.
While visiting there, in 1962, I was told that sometimes the local ladies'
bridge club would go for a 'dip in the altogether' on hot, humid summer days.
They had a particular spot well away from the main beach that the local
people all knew. Respecful gentlemen were careful not wander there close
to one in the afternoon. Some of the women involved were very influential
members of the community, I was given to understand.
Neil
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NONAME""::HSC003$DUA2:[NOTES]SEXETERA.NOT;69
CAMLOT::DAVIS The world's favorite pastime 14-DEC-1985 11:54
Note 180.4 Swedish sexetera 4 of 4
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I recall my delight and dismay on my first visit to the home of
my (then) Swedish gentleman friend... his parents simply assumed
we would be sharing a bedroom... to do otherwise would be less
than gracious...
grins,
Marge
|
| 10.2 | | OSL02::TERJE | Terje Schj�nneberg | Sun Dec 29 1985 12:29 | 7 |
| Seems like there is a great difference between Norway and
Sweden/Denmark concerning sex. Norwegians are very conservative
with nakedness. It's only the last couple of years that ladies
could bath topless without almost being considered a hore. It
has gotten better though.
Terje.
|
| 10.3 | | 50326::ORA | | Mon Jan 13 1986 10:39 | 2 |
| May well be true. At least, the Norwegian drinking laws are the
strictest in Scandinavia! (Not even to mention the prices...).
|
| 10.4 | WHAT'S OBSCENE??? | SOFCON::MCDONOUGH | | Fri Jun 20 1986 11:50 | 23 |
| Hello folks,
I'm new to this 'conference'.
I'm a transplanted Minnesotan, and I grew up in an area dominated
by people of Scandinavian origin..and have always wanted to visit
the original homelands...and may still get the chance someday..
But..to the point..
I've always had a hard time understanding the Puritanistic concept
of "obscene" or "lewd"
I happen to find the Human body to be something Beautiful..not
obscene.. I think the 6 o'clock news each night would be more properly
termed "OBSCENE" than a nude person...or persons. I think some
societies have adopted a real warped set of values. I see statistics
about hundreds of thousands of unwanted pets KILLED in this country
of ours, the supposedly 'civilized' U.S.A., yet that isn't considered
"obscene"....But the picture of a beautiful woman or a well built
man in the nude is supposedly something 'dirty'???? Good Greif!!
We could learn something from the Swedes about moral values if
we would only open our minds a bit...but I don't expect that to
happen soon..Unfortunately
BRAVO SWEDEN!!! There should be more countries like yours and
the world would be a better place to live!!!
JMCD
|
| 10.5 | Laws regarding sexuality | TLE::SAVAGE | Neil, @Spit Brook | Mon Jul 07 1986 10:05 | 31 |
| Excepted from an article about European laws concering sexuality by
LARRY THORSON Associated Press Writer:
LONDON (AP) - With the exception of Ireland, Western European countries
have enacted no laws against homosexual acts, but few countries
explicitly ban discrimination against homosexuals in such areas as jobs
and housing.
In the past 25 years, several European nations repealed old laws
forbidding homosexual relations, among them Britain, West Germany,
Norway and Spain. Most countries now permit any sexual act between
consenting people in private. The age of consent ranges from 16 in
Italy and Denmark to 21 in Britain.
The U.S. Supreme Court's recent decision to uphold Georgia's law
against sodomy prompted some scathing editorial comment in European
newspapers. Sweden's Aftonbladet linked the ruling with President
Reagan's appointment of what the paper called "extreme right-wing
judges" to the court. "It is absurd to hold forth a United States ruled
by conservatives as an example of freedom, when freedom does not exist
in the most private of affairs," said the daily.
Sweden's Ministry of Social Affairs is drafting a bill expected to give
homosexual live-in couples the same legal status as unmarried
heterosexual couples, who have virtually the same rights as married
couples.
An Associated Press sampling of Europe showed that only Switzerland and
Norway explicitly ban discrimination against homosexuals. Denmark, like
Sweden, is drafting legislation to protect homosexuals' rights in
employment and housing.
|
| 10.6 | SAUNA | CYGNUS::OLSEN | | Thu Nov 20 1986 09:46 | 9 |
| I'M NEW TO NOTES FILE. I DO THINK THAT WE SCANDINAVIENS HAVE A HEALTHIER
ATTITUDE TO NUDITY ETC. WE HAVE A "SAUNA" IN OUR HOUSE AND I'M ALWAYS
AMAZED AT MY AMERICAN FRIENDS BEHAVIOR TO SHARING A "SAUNABATH"
IN "THE ALLTOGETHER".SOME WEAR THEIR BATHINGSUITES SOME TOWELS BUT
AFTER A FEW TIMES RELAX AND DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT AS MUCH,SO GIVE
THEM A FEW CENTURIES.WE NOW COME TO THE TIME OF YEAR WHEN WE CAN
ROLL IN THE SNOW AFTER A HOT SAUNA AND REALLY GET THE BLOOD
CIRCULATING.ENJOY THE SNOW WITH ALL THE OTHER FLAKES
CYGNUS::OLSEN
|
| 10.7 | what's obscene reply to 10.4 | CYGNUS::OLSEN | | Wed Dec 10 1986 13:52 | 10 |
| AMEN!!!!!! I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU.BORN MYSELF IN FINLAND AND HAVING
LIVED IN STOCKHOLM FOR ALMOST 10 YEARS [ WITH 2 BOYS BORN THERE
]WE MOVED HERE WHEN THEY WHERE 3 AND 5 YEARS OLD.I WAS TOLD BY AN
AMERICAN FRIEND TO BUY BATHING SUITES THAT OTHERWISE I WOULD BE
TOLD SO WHEN WE WENT TO THE BEACH.WHAT A SHAME,I,LIKE YOU THINK
WE DO A LOT MORE OBCENE THINGS THAN UNDRESSING ON THE BEACH.
I THINK IT IS OBCENE TO SUPPORT IRAN WITH ARM TO KILL MORE PEOPLE
UNDER THE PRETENCE OF SAVING HOSTAGES[SP]
PS sorry,forgot to use lower case letters again.
charlotta
|
| 10.8 | Sex education in Danish schools | TLE::SAVAGE | Neil, @Spit Brook | Tue Apr 14 1987 09:57 | 23 |
| *NI1**** Copyright 1986 Agence France Presse SISCOM IP
Sex education in schools "too technical", Danish pupils say
COPENHAGEN, April 14 (AFP) - Sex education in Danish schools is "too
technical and lacks heart, warmth and feeling", a survey of pupils aged
16 to 20 at a school in Viborg, Jutland has found.
The survey, published in a medical review here, found that two out
of three adolescents polled thought the sex education they had received
was bad.
One pupil commented: "The teachers tell us all about sexual
technique, contraception, but they forget to discuss our uncertainties,
our feelings and our experiences." The survey said that most teenagers
found out about sex from friends (27.2 per cent) or their parents (25.1
per cent) and only 22 per cent from school lessons.
Four out of every 10 pupils surveyed said they had never discussed
sex with their parents.
Eight out of ten had used contraceptives when they had sex for the
first time -- the condom was the favourite method, with the pill
second.
Received: 14-APR-1987 07:45
|
| 10.9 | Do Finnish workers deserve a (sex) break today? | 16BITS::SAVAGE | Neil @ Spit Brook | Tue Aug 29 1989 11:26 | 9 |
| Extracted from a USENET newsgroup, net.humor.funny {although I think it
would have been funnier if the endorsment had come from a Calvinist
(puritan) church official.}:
A February report from Finland's Health Ministry, concerned about
declining population and a high incidence of stress among workers
recommended that people should take "sex holidays" from work. The
proposal was immediately endorsed by a Lutheran church official in
Finland.
|
| 10.10 | Fr�cka Fredag TV show | MLTVAX::SAVAGE | Neil @ Spit Brook | Mon Oct 09 1989 14:53 | 20 |
| During the spring of '88 there was a TV-show in Sweden called "Fr�cka
Fredag". This TV-show was lead by a woman who probably thought that one
lives for sex, and has sex to live. She tried to show "beautiful"
scenes from "good" adult movies, and she spoke very openly about sex.
Almost every Swede watched the show at least once, and almost everyone
said it was sh*t, but still the number of viewers was enormous. All
this lead to that a lot of strange things started to pop up and "Fr�cka
S�ndag" at Lule� Stads Hotell was one of those things. It was just an
ordinary dancing evening even if it was Sunday. The only difference was
that the ones with the "sexiest" outfit, got a prize of some kind.
Unfortunately I don't know what. Black leather and lace perhaps ? :-)
--E
Erik Karlsson Phone: (0920)754 22
TeleLOGIC AB Int. : +46920 754 22
S-951 75 LULE] Fax. : +46920 754 90
SWEDEN Mail : [email protected]
|
| 10.11 | Cross-cultural male-female relationships | MLTVAX::SAVAGE | Neil @ Spit Brook | Wed Nov 15 1989 13:06 | 155 |
|
From: [email protected] (P�r Emanuelsson)
Organization: Dept of EE, University of Linkoping
Bj�rn Lisper:
>This hints at another interesting cultural deviation. For some reason I
>believe that is it much more common that Swedish women marry (or
>equivalently) American men than Swedish men marrying American women. Why is
>that? (I have no statistics, but I do believe I'm right.) I can think of a
>few explanations myself, but I'd like to hear some other people's opinions.
I have exactly the opposite experience. I'm reluctant to engange in
speculations as to what this proves since the sample size is so
incredibly small (my numbers are 3-0; what are yours??). Still, some
observations follow:
Six years ago I happened to become involved with lots of exchange
students at our university and I think I knew most of the US people.
The women were very popular and hevily dated by Swedish men, while the
American men were less successful with the Swedish women.
My impressions were that the Swedish men started to act like Americans
as soon as the women were around, or maybe I should say that they acted
like the "ideal" American man as presented by the movies, i.e. rough,
tough and self-confident. Sure, lots of men didn't act like this, but
they were almost always pushed aside by the "tough" boys.
The American women didn't seemed displeased with this behaviour, but
they probably didn't notice anyway. So, what made them popular? They
were certainly always very cheerful and talkative, just like your
favorite stereotype American woman. An observation that may be
important is that they almost never turned down a date. The fear and
the humility of being turned down was therefore not an issue and more
men dared ask them out. I didn't notice anything particular about their
sexual habits compared to Swedish women. Some where certainly "easy"
but most were not.
As mentioned, the American men were not as successful with Swedish
women. Some of them tried some "jock" routines, but that didn't work
out too well; the girls weren't impressed. I think it's safe to say
that Swedish women are very self-assured and think that equality
between the sexes is a very important issue. This may explain why the
jocks were turned down. The most successful American men just stopped
acting and tried to be more gentle, caring and soft, which they indeed
were very capable of. The remaining jocks got laid, of course, but
didn't experience more satisfying (in my opinion) relationships.
These are my subjective observations and speculations and I do not
represent them as "the truth". I certainly don't propose that these
observations are valid for all American women/men. Comments are
welcome.
-- Dept. of Electrical Engineering
[email protected] University of Linkoping, Sweden
...!uunet!isy.liu.se!pell
From: [email protected] (David Walden)
Organization: USC-Information Sciences Institute
[email protected] (P�r Emanuelsson) writes:
>
[American exchange students]
>My impressions were that the Swedish men started to act like Americans as
>soon as the women were around... i.e. rough, tough and self-confident.
>The American women didn't seemed displeased with this behaviour, but they
>probably didn't notice anyway. So, what made them popular? They were
>certainly always very cheerful and talkative, just like your favorite
>stereotype American woman. An observation that may be important is that
>they almost never turned down a date....
>
>As mentioned, the American men were not as successful with Swedish women.
As I've told Erik Karlsson in my copyrighted essay (which I
think he's still reading), Swedish women have subtler signals to let a
man know she's interested - when she finally, eventually, at long last
does get interested. Swedes in general have a higher "potential
barrier" to cross before friendship sets in, and the women, the
traditional "pursuee", have raised this subtlety to a fine art.
First, Americans in general are easier to approach. And since
we don't encounter as many foreigners per minute as Europeans do,
someone of another culture is always more interesting to us. And when
an American woman is interested in a man, she will look at him and
smile when he looks back. I once told this to a young woman I know
from Stockholm, and she said a Swedish girl "would never smile at a man
she's interested in, no, one must look disinterested, even angry." It
is no wonder, then, that Swedish men would find American women easy to
approach and "chat up".
I have found these traits highly developed and keenly exhibited
in Stockholm discos, bars and restaurants. Case in point: Birgerbar
on Birger Jarls Gatan, Stockholm. (This is supposed to be THE HOT MEET
MARKET in Stockholm.) Wednesday night, about 9:30 p.m. Cool Dave
enters and goes downstairs to the bar area. People crowded around the
bar and at tables. I stand at the floating bar set up in the middle of
the floor, the only free spot. Two women chatting to each other two
feet away. I gradually realize that NO ONE is doing any hustling!
EVERYONE is chatting with people they ALREADY KNOW or to whom they have
been introduced by friends. There is good disco dance music playing,
and I wonder whether the tables are moved later on to allow dancing.
One of the woman next to me leaves to "powder her nose", and I step
over to her friend to ask about whether there is dancing later. This
woman looks astounded, scowls and steps back as if repelled by a
magnetic force. My god! Do I have bad breath? Her friend returns and
they spend the next minute whispering and scowling at me. I leave,
wondering how Swedes ever manage to reproduce.
The very next night. I enter Birgerbar with a couple that
live in Stockholm (actually [lvsj�) and whom I met in L.A. The guy is
Brit and his wife is Swedish. We stand in the same spot and we chat
and drink, drink and chat for about an hour and a half. There's a lot
of animated talk and laughter, and I'm enjoying the music, too.
Finally, my friends have to leave (good thing as I'm about to fall on
my face), but the guy says I should stick around because the women at
the next table are obviously quite interested in me. What was the
clue? They had been gazing at me and now and then smiling faintly!
Apparently, these are major moves for Swedish women! The only
difference between the two nights was that on the second night, I had
the apparent social stamp of approval of at least one Swede and these
women had a chance to watch me and size me up for an hour and a half.
Ah, but there are more signals, even more blunt! Ever want to
feel lonely? Try standing in a Stockholm disco. Everyone comes in and
seemingly leaves with people they already know, usually the same
people. There is seemingly no mixing 'n meeting going on. There is
this Swedish law against talking to strangers, you see. You know how
girls make it known that they want to meet you? Do they smile at you
or come up and say hi? No way! (Look out for the ones who do. They
may be after your drink.) These brazen hussies :) drift off from
their friends and stand near you or next to you, looking away, looking
bored, or maybe looking at the insides of their eyeballs. (I had a
drunk one even lean on me.) This is Major Signal, man. This is as
blunt as it gets. If you don't pick up on this, you must be dead, a
numb nut, an idiot. (I didn't pick up on it until a friend told me
later.)
What does this all mean? I means it's no wonder Swedish
women have reputations for frostiness. And it's no wonder that
Swedish men have a grand successful time pursuing American women.
But I've saved the best for last. I will now tell you how to
pick up Swedish women. Go to a bar or disco. Stand around and
drink (not too much, now) for a long time. Chat with someone - a
friend, the bartender, the drunk next to you. If you're at a
disco, go out on the floor and dance by yourself. Let all the
women see you, check you out, see that you're harmless and having a
good time without them. Watch to see which women are doing a LOT of
drinking. If you time it right, just before they pass out, the really
drunk ones are approachable!
Dave "Cupid" Walden
[email protected]
|
| 10.12 | Sexual connotation, men looking at women, et. al. | MLTVAX::SAVAGE | Neil @ Spit Brook | Wed Jan 17 1990 16:10 | 84 |
| From: [email protected] (Hans Henrik Eriksen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Scandinavian moral (Was: Re: "Lewd little observations")
Date: 15 Jan 90 18:53:11 GMT
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Bengt G{llmo) writes:
> Have you noticed that most swear-words and other "fortifiers" of the
> language seem to have a sexual connotation in English (f*ck with variations).
> This is not so in Scandinavia, where we are supposed to be so free about sex.
> We swear with the help of the devil and God instead! I wonder what thoughts
> we are influenced by :-) :-) Martin Luther?
I don't understand what you mean about "we are supposed to be so
free about sex." If you mean "free sex" ala Woodstock, this is of
course wrong. I suppose non-Scandinavians' (mistaken) thought of
Scandinavia as a "bin of sin" is caused by the (then daring)
Ingmar Bergman movies of the fifties.
It is very interesting that the English use words with sexual con-
notation when swearing. Perhaps that's why talking about sex in
public in USA/GB is considered wicked and naughty - it is connected
with swearing!?!
It is also interesting to notice the people's reaction to "sex
scandals". We had a particularly juicy one in Norway last autumn - the
(now ex-) vice president of parliament suggested in his latest
book that he had had a sexual relationship with the (now ex-) prime
minister! Remark: the ex-ness of them both has nothing to do with the
scandal, it was election year in Norway last year. The gutter
press pushed the story to its limits, but my impression is that
"the man in the street" thought of it as a storm in a glass of
water, but that it wasn't nice of the vice president to hurt the
prime minister with such a suggestion. (Now he regrets that he
wrote it).
I also believe that, for a Norwegian politician at election time, a
"ordinary" sex scandal (like having an affair with your secretary),
wouldn't destroy his or hers chances of being elected, like in GB or
in the Hart of Amerika (sorry, that was a cheap one.) I guess the
average Norwegian would be more irritated on the journalist publishing
the story (for prying into other peoples' private affairs) than on
the person(s) committing adultery. I think such cases are
"evaluated" according to the harm it does to society. Now if that
politician cheated on his income tax.. off with his head!
I guess you people are fed up with my writing about sex and moral,
but I'm just trying to explain to you (my thought of) the mind of the
scandinavian on (relatively) important issues. Perhaps I should
bury the issue for now....
Hans Henrik Eriksen ([email protected])
Universitetet i Oslo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] (Torkil Hammer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: "Lewd little observations"
Date: 15 Jan 90 22:28:23 GMT
Organization: Pacesetter Systems Inc., Sylmar, CA
I think most of the American guys are missing the point here.
Many Danish women did away with the bra in the mid 1960's.
Many Danish men did away with the necktie at the same time.
It was an issue of relaxing the dress code. The period saw a general
relaxation of formalities anyway. The formal "De" ("Ni" in Swedish)
was widely replaced with "Du", and some expletives became accepted
language in the state radio programs.
There was also a relaxation of sexual behaviors in some cultural
groups, but that was a different thing. Most of the women who dropped
the bra and the men who dropped the necktie didn't become promiscuous
as a result. But tourists sure ogled the women.
Then there were women who did away with the top altogether but that was
usually as a provocation against the establishment. Such a behavior
would be dangerous in USA (she would be assaulted) but not in Denmark.
Finally there were a few women and men who walked in the bare nothing
in the streets, but that was considered unacceptable even in
"progressive" circles. The point was of hygiene.
Torkil Hammer
|
| 10.13 | Condom vending machines | CHARLT::SAVAGE | | Fri Jul 27 1990 10:24 | 39 |
| From: [email protected] (Lennart Boerjeson @ KTH/LNE,
The Royal Inst. of Tech.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Sex
Date: 27 Jul 90 08:05:13 GMT
Organization: KTH School of E.E.
Radio Sweden currently features a serial on Fridays on Sexual mores in
Scandinavia and (foreign) myths of these mores. Recommended.
I can't resist adding an anecdote on this subject: On my very recent
honeymoon, when my wife and I traveled by car through Germany, Austria
and Switzerland, we got many a good laugh when I told her of the
vending machines I found in practically all public men's toilets.
Condoms of every conceivable and in- conceivable variety, sometimes
vibrators, lubricating gel etc. In Sweden, condoms are sold in almost
every shop, mostly kept on an open shelf in front of the cash register.
Vibrators and more outlandish condoms can only be found in sex shops
and in mail stores.
Well, we had never seen such vending machines before so we laughed a
lot, especially at the pictures of extatic young girls on the machines.
(Condom advertisement in Sweden are somewhat more cosy...). But when we
returned to Sweden, I found my first swedish toilet condom vending
machine. But its supply told a perhaps typical swedish story of male
hangups: An alco-tester, peppermint anti-bad-breath pastilles and one
plain brand of condoms. We laughed, and laughed much more when my wife
returned from her visit to the women's toilet: "There's one here too!"
But that one sold alco-testers, tampoons and condoms... Perhaps a small
sign of the famous swedish equality?
!++
! Lennart Boerjeson, System Manager
! School of Electrical Engineering
! Royal Institute of Technology
! S-100 44 Stockholm, Sweden
! tel: int+46-8-7907814
! Internet: [email protected]
!--
|
| 10.14 | Can it be true???? | COPCLU::GEOFFREY | RUMMEL - The Forgotten American | Tue Aug 07 1990 04:35 | 30 |
| ================================================================================
Note 273.13 Truth - Stranger than Fiction 13 of 13
COOKIE::FREIWALD "Fight gravity!!" 23 lines 6-AUG-1990 12:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-< Think we could get DEC to switch this for our personal days? >-
<<< CSCMA::$1$DUA18:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GRATEFUL.NOTE;1 >>>
-< Take my advice, you'd be better off Dead >-
================================================================================
Note 229.536 On the lighter side..... 536 of 537
LVIRA::CLARK "let there be songs to fill the air" 16 lines 3-AUG-1990 10:45
-< Finland, Land of Opportunity >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FINNS URGE SEX DAYS FOR THE STRESSED-OUT
(Reuter)
HELSINKI, Finland -- Finland's health officials are calling for
government-organized sex holidays as a cure for citizens worn down by
the stress of modern life.
``People suffering from stress should be given the oppoportunity
of having sex holidays when they would be able to forget their worries
and concentrate on recuperating in an erotic atmosphere,'' according
to a discussion paper produced by a Health Ministry working party.
The idea will be considered next month by heads of Finalnd's
state-financed national health service, a ministry spokesman said
Wednesday.
``Lack of free time and various social obligations are the main
impediments to a satisfying sex life,'' the paper said.
|
| 10.15 | Re: .9 & .14: deja vu? | MLTVAX::SAVAGE | Neil @ Spit Brook | Tue Aug 07 1990 11:22 | 4 |
| Reply .14 comes almost to the month a year after reply .9
Does it have something to do with the newswires running out of
sensational things to print during the August holidays?
|
| 10.16 | Jeg beklager... | COPCLU::GEOFFREY | RUMMEL - The Forgotten American | Wed Aug 08 1990 04:50 | 16 |
|
Re: 10.15
> Reply .14 comes almost to the month a year after reply .9
>
> Does it have something to do with the newswires running out of
> sensational things to print during the August holidays?
Sorry Neil. I didn't remember the reply in 10.9. The story appeared
in the HUMOR notes file yesterday.
Cheers,
Geoff
|
| 10.17 | Finland in the 80s - hung up on paternity | CHARLT::SAVAGE | | Tue Aug 14 1990 12:18 | 65 |
| From: [email protected] (Paivi Hyvarinen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Date: 13 Aug 90 11:52:59 GMT
Sender: [email protected] (Cnews - USENET news system)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
In article <[email protected]> [email protected]
(Juha Ikonen) writes:
Funny thing... I have thought that only women had the wedding
rings here in Finland. Every married man I know doesn't have
a wedding ring and I'm not going to buy one for myself either.
That's strange... I know only one married couple who don't wear any
rings, either of them. But they are an exception among my friends -
everybody else who _did_ marry in the first place do wear rings. He has
one, she two is the rule.
This "odd" :-) couple only got married because they didn't want the
legal/official fuss about "who really is the father". Neither of them
is religious, either, so that kind of traditions have little importance
if any for them. They also make a point of not being conservative, so
there certainly is an amount of "rebelling against the rules" in their
choises. (I know them well enough to say so - we are the best of
friends. I tease them for being too old for radicalism and they keep
telling me I'm too young for conforming to conservative values ;-)
About this "who is the father, anyway" thing - it somewhat disturbes me
that in the eighties the authorities in Finland had the habit of a
routine questioning if the couple wasn't married, even if it wasn't
their first child and regardless of how long they had been together.
The questioning could get rather intimate: demanding exact dates when
you had sex, "you sure you haven't been with anybody else" and other
things that I am tempted to call plain nastiness.
Another couple I know had this kind of an experience after their second
child was born and were very hurt and annoyed about it. They choose
not to marry out of their own personal preferences and wish to remain
unmarried. The discussion with the "lastensuojeluviranomainen" (Fi) /
"barnskyddsmyndighet" (Sw) had got to the point where she (the
official) was unwilling to fill in him as the father in the birth
certificate, because the couple was "not cooperating" (!!). Also, in
the hospital documents they would not accept him as her "next of kin"
(l{hiomainen/n{rmaste anh|rig), so had something happened to her or the
kid while in hospital, the personel would not inform him, but her
parents instaid.
This was some five years ago in Helsinki and Espoo. Have things changed
or do this kind of norms still stand? I find it quite improper to
question a couple about their sex life if they both agree that he is
the father. Not accepting my SO as my next of kin is equally stupid:
surely I can point out the person I want to be informed first?
Anyone had any experience in these things lately? How is it in the rest
of Norden?
just curious
P�ivi
--
@ Paivi Hyvarinen @ The study of computer science is full of surprises...@
@ 1st Sept. 1990 -> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@ JT 11 F 137 @ e-mail: [email protected], [email protected] @
@ SF-02150 Espoo @ tel: +358 -0- 468 2770 (home), 451 4316 (work) @
|
| 10.18 | Swedish teens better informed than US teens | CHARLT::SAVAGE | | Wed Sep 12 1990 15:54 | 43 |
| From: [email protected] (Peter Herman x5495)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Sex and the Scandinavians
Date: 8 Sep 90 15:27:05 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Having lived in both Sweden and the US, I expect that Swedes are no
more or less sexually active on average than Americans. What Swedes
ARE when compared to Americans is better informed and less "hung-up"
about bodies. The "land of sex" image, I think, comes from the fact
that Swedes (and most other northern europeans) sunbathe topless more
frequently than seen here. (many Americans have a bizarre tendency to
associate nudity with sexual activity). An additional factor is
probably the "I am curious yellow, blue, etc." X-rated movies which
created a stir in the US about 20-25 years ago.
I got off on a tangent there. The point that I want to make as one who
teaches "Principles of Public Health Microbiology" which deals with a
lot of information about sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) is that
Swedish teens are *MUCH* better informed about *ALL* aspects of sex,
pregnancy, STDs, contraception, etc than their American peers. Our
Swedish exchange daughter (2nd year gymnasium student, American
highschool senior) knew more about these topics than most of the
students entering my class (American university sophomores). These
students are mostly headed toward careers in nursing so you might
reasonably expect them to be more aware than average.
One of my colleagues asked a university general biology class "how many
of you had a face to face talk with your parents about sex?" Less
than a third of over 200 students responded yes. When we asked our
Swedish daughter about that, she said "of course, and so have all of
my friends"
On the whole, I would much rather have a few outsiders think I lived in
the land of sex and sm|rgosb}rds than live in a land of ignorance,
unwanted pregnancies, and rampant venereal disease.
*****************************************************************
[email protected]
Peter Herman, Department of Biology, New Mexico State University,
Las Cruces, NM USA, 88005. Phone 505-646-4532.
*****************************************************************
|
| 10.19 | Possible origins of patronyms and 'trial marriage' | TLE::SAVAGE | | Wed May 29 1991 11:03 | 57 |
| From: [email protected] (Lyle Davis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Why we have last names (was: Re: origin of my last name)
Date: 29 May 91 02:36:07 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: People-Net [pnet01], El Cajon CA
[email protected] (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
>While maternity is very rarely in doubt, paternity often is.
>Hence the custom of having people take their fathers name.
>It originally was almost certainly to establish the paternity
>of the child, the maternity being self evident. Whether this
>is the "right" thing to do is a separate question, but it is
>certainly very pragmatic if the question of paternity is at all
>relevant (eg who should contribute to the cost of raising the child)
Quite correct. There were other instances, at least in Norway, where
if the paternity was in doubt, or for other reasons that the priest
felt were valid, where the child would be given the name of the city,
village, or farm as a last name.v:
(For non-nordics, the term "priest", which is normally associated in
America with Catholics, referred to the local pastor. Norway was, and
is, generally a Lutheran nation).
There is another little known tradition that came as quite a surprise
to me when I was doing my Norway research. There used to be a law in
Norway wherein a Norwegian wife was *required* to deliver an heir to
the family. An "heir" need not be a male. A daughter could marry, so
that would satisfy the law. Actually, what the law provided for was to
preven barren females (or males unable to conceive) from continuing the
marriage. The law provided that if the female was unable to deliver an
heir then the husband could declare the marriage invalid, declare a
divorce, and the female was returned to her father, if still living,
and the marriage bond money was forfeited. If the father was no longer
living, or if the family was of lesser financial circumstance, then the
divorced wife became a ward of the parish and was prohibited from
re-marrying as there was proof sufficient to the parish and its priest
that she was barren. (At this time the fact that some men are
incapable of producing offspring was either not known or accepted. The
young lady received all of the "blame".)
As a result, there was a built in incentive for young Norwegian ladies
to "prove" they were capable of delivering an "heir". Consequently,
you often find in archives little Ole being born and two or three days
later Ole's mother and father trot off to the kirke to get married.
After several decades of this, the Norwegian government, in their
infinite wisdom, decided this probably was not a very good law----and
they repealed it.
This information from Penny Feike, Norwegian expert with the LDS
(Latter Day Saints - i.e., Mormons) of the San Diego Family History
Library. Anyone in Norway who can confirm or deny this history?
|
| 10.20 | When was this law? | OSL09::MAURITZ | DTN(at last!)872-0238; @NWO | Wed Jun 26 1991 05:53 | 22 |
| re .19 on the final question.
I do not know of any such law historically. It would, however, help to
know which law that the expert in question is refering to. By "which
law" I mean which issue of a new legal code (our laws are in general
classified by a general code, and within that code, by date). The first
comprehensive written code was that of Magnus Lagab�ter (in the
1200's), though written laws go back to about 1000 (these having
existed in oral form for centuries before that). Another major rewrite
was the law of Cristian the 5th (1600's); this one included included al
kinds of stuff, like when to bury corpses, fathers duties to beat
misbehaving sons, etc. It might not be unlikely that the said law could
have been a part of this code.
On the other hand, could the law have been one that mainly applied to
royalty? (i.e., the necessity of providing an heir). In this case, it
could have fit into the end of the Norwegian Civil Wars (early 1200's),
when the issue was finally settled that only "legitimate" offspring
could inherit the throne.
Mauritz
|
| 10.21 | Discussions from soc.culture.nordic (roundup) | TLE::SAVAGE | | Thu Jul 25 1991 12:52 | 295 |
| From: [email protected] (Jyrki Kimmel)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: SEX
Date: 24 Jul 91 15:02:48 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: University of Utah EE Dept
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Daniel
Figueroa) writes:
>I'm an american male with typical american values, such as I don't believe
>its right for my teenage daughter to sleep with her boyfriend under my roof.
>After talking with a few danes, I found out it is common for this type of
>arrangement to occur in Denmark.
I will defer answering this by about 15 years (I hope).
>Does this openess that danes have with sexual freedom have some positive
>effects that I'm not aware of? Such as, is there proof that scandinavian
>teenage girls are less likely than american girls to get pregnant, because
>of their open relationship with their parents? Is abortion a big issue
>in scandinavia?
I have lived in the States before, and now in Utah for about a year.
The contrast to Scandinavian morals concerning sex and teenagers here
is like entering a blind cave after hours of sunlight.
Well, in Illinois, I remember an instance when a South American
exchange student buddy of mine wanted to buy condoms in the drug store
and they would not sell him any. Personal freedom? Hmm...
Here in Utah, it seems children grow up without any sex education
whatsoever. I have heard of a girl arguing to her mother that she could
not be pregnant because God gives children only to married people. That
was when she was wheeled into a hospital emergency ward for kidney
stone pain, just hours before she delivered a healthy baby. Sex
education in Utah schools is given by volunteers. There are some laws
governing the content of their teaching, that virtually make all real
education impossible. They may talk about AIDS, but without referring
to any sex organs. They may not say 'condom'in class before the class
asks about them.
Example:
T: Now, you should know how to avoid getting AIDS...
Q: Will a birth control pill help me avoid contracting AIDS?
T: No, but..., well, anybody know what would????
Q: ???? A condom?
T (relieved): Yes, correct. A condom will help you not to contract any
venereal diseases...
(I will not elaborate on how the educators might demonstrate the use of
condoms.)
It seems here that it's even OK getting pregnant as long as you don't
use any contraception! A friend of ours who is a 6th grade teacher in a
poor area of town, tells us last year was the only one during her
career none of the 6th grade girls got pregnant. The parents of the 6th
graders are sometimes double the age of the kids themselves.
This leads to the abortion issue. Utah has now one of the most
restricted abortion laws in the nation. It disallows 90 % of all
abortions occurring before the law. Now, there are clinics who take
their patients to Nevada stateline by limo to get the evil deed done.
Big deal. I bet 90 % of all abortions would be avoided by proper
education. The pro-lifers here promote ABSTINENCE as a remedy to the
issue (see next paragraph).
I think IGNORANCE of the parents and therefore their kids is the root
of their peril here. In Scandinavian countries, talking to your kids
about sex is a naturally evolving process. They want to know, need to
know and they will get to know everything. I would advise my kids not
to have casual sex, but not to refrain totally either, if the right one
comes along. Now, how to decide on that issue is another problem...
>
>Since I'm on the subject of sex, I would like to bring up the issue of
>pornography in DK. I understand that at one time porno cinemas were setup
>mostly along Copenhagen's Stroeget when the Parliament legalized porno in all
>its forms in the late 60s. But eventually the interest of porno, once it was
>legalized, died down and most of the cinemas went out of business.
I think nowadays what you see in Copenhagen are these dim lit alleys
with bright lights advertising porn video bars... And drunk Finnish
tourists inside. What would decent people do in these places anyway (on
a regular basis, I mean)?
>At the
>same time, in 1969 it was reported that sex crimes went down by 50%. I wonder
>if the danes have the right idea, such as women going topless in public
>swimming pools or beaches. Or, that nude women appear in magazines, TV, etc.
>For example, we couldn't even see the new Madonna video, but in DK of course
>they could. What works for the danes, could never work for us, or could it?
Ever read Playboy? It's an American magazine with pictures of nude
girls. Ever been to Times Square in New York City? There the whores
literally grab you by the balls. Porn is everywhere. So how would it
not be legal? ;-) But then you have Georgia, where about a year ago
someone was convicted of sodomy because he and his girlfriend had had
oral sex. By golly, what ARE you allowed to do in this country anyway?
I think the Scandinavian attitude is, if you see topless ladies, it's
their business. If they want to bask in the sun in a public park
during their lunch hour bare-breasted, let them, it's none of your
business anyway, it's a beautiful day, let them enjoy it, don't be
stupid and stare as if you'd never seen the secondary sexual organs of
a female before.
What I'm saying is, if you are a decent person yourself, you should
have no reaction either way.
Finland by the way has always been rather conservative in porn issues.
There always are these Christian party parliament members who page
through mens' magazines and point out obscenities and try to censor
subsequent issues. No good ever comes out of their prodding the
cow-pie. They do some editing in the national TV channels as well, but
e. g. sexual intercourse can be seen there (not during prime time when
e. g. Bill Cosby is on, though). But then, there are better programs
than the ones concentrating exclusively in the erotically arousing.
I am sorry I can't give any numbers on abortions or average ages of
parents at the time they are married and when they get children, I
can't give an account on Scandinavian sex life in general anyway. It is
everyone's and their partners' personal business. What do I care? I
think what the Americans need is a natural attitude to human life,
nudity and reproduction go with that. Sex is not the meaning of life,
but important enough to know something about. Get out of the cave, and
have a good day.
---
Jyrki Kimmel, U. of Utah Department of Bioengineering, and
Technical Research Centre of Finland
... neither of which endorse my personal opinions ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] (Jim Muchow)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: SEX
Date: 24 Jul 91 17:05:13 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: Network Systems Corporation
In article <[email protected]>[email protected] (Daniel
Figueroa) writes:
>I'm an american male with typical american values, such as I don't believe
>its right for my teenage daughter to sleep with her boyfriend under my roof.
>After talking with a few danes, I found out it is common for this type of
>arrangement to occur in Denmark.
Yes, this is more or less true, at least in relation to America.
>Does this openess that danes have with sexual freedom have some positive
>effects that I'm not aware of? Such as, is there proof that scandinavian
>teenage girls are less likely than american girls to get pregnant, because
>of their open relationship with their parents? Is abortion a big issue
>in scandinavia?
There is at least one item missing here. Education, or to be more
specific, sex education. Sex in Danmark is not only more open in the
sensationalist aspects (topless women, easy access to pornography,
etc.), but also in the more mundane aspects (sex education for
example).To a large extent, teenage pregnancy is caused by ignorance
because few teens would choose be pregnant if they knew the biology
(yes, just once is all it takes) as well as the contraceptive
possibilities. Not to mention the responsibilities required after the
birth.
There are also a number of other facets that are much more
socio-political in nature. For example, the relative size of the two
countries (the apples and oranges problem), the relative educational
levels (not just counting sexual education), the relative levels of
sexual equality, the relative levels of religious "feeling". Too often,
Americans will notice the sensationalist differences between
Scandinavian countries without realizing that they are part of a
package deal.
>For example, we couldn't even see the new Madonna video, but in DK of course
>they could. What works for the danes, could never work for us, or could it?
In reality, probably not.
Jim Muchow
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] (R. Peter Herman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: SEX
Date: 24 Jul 91 21:05:09 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
[email protected] (Jyrki Kimmel)writes: <lots of stuff deleted>
>I think what the Americans need is a natural attitude to human life,
>nudity and reproduction go with that. Sex is not the meaning of life,
>but important enough to know something about. ---
Being an American who has lived in Sweden and had a Swedish teenager
(exchange daughter) I think that Jyrki has really hit the nail on the
head about the differences in attitudes toward sex and other bodily
functions between Americans and Scandinavians.
It is not all that hard to get used to the openness when you are in the
open environment. The first time I forgot my combination at the
Eriksdahl Badet and the female attendent came in to open it for me I
was a bit ill at ease. By the end of the 7 months, I paid as little
notice of a woman in the locker room as the rest of the patrons. I
cannot help but feel that this openness translates into better
repoductive, and probably general, health.
While I cannot give absolute statistics on the differences in teen
pregnangy between Norden and the US (a thread in the original SEX
posting) I can relate our exchange daughter's observations. No one
(that is 0, none, not any) of the students in her gymnasium had a child
the year before she came. The school had about 1200 students. I am not
saying that there were no abortions, though Sara's feeling was that if
there were any, there were not many. On the other hand, 3 students in
her classes (of about 120-150 students total) had children or would
have them over the summer after school ended.
Sara indicated that most everyone spoke fairly openly to their parents
about reproduction and sex education was a part of school. Public
service ads about pregnancy prevention and AIDS prevention are common.
Last month, we saw a full page add in the SJ (Swedish National
Railroad) magazine warning travelers that AIDS was more common elswhere
and to use condoms.
One of my collegues asked his class of college sophmores and juniors
(about age 19-21 on average) how many had actually had one or more open
talks with their parents about sex. Well less than 1/2 (I think it was
between 20-30% but I don't remember for sure) answered yes. Quite a
contrast, and one where the folks in Norden are far ahead of us!
--
******************************************************************************
* *
* [email protected] R. Peter Herman *
* Dept. of Biology *
* Phone: 505-646-4532 New Mexico State Univ. *
* Fax: 505-646-5665 Las Cruces, NM 88003 USA *
* *
******************************************************************************
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] (Bj�rn Lisper)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: SEX
Date: 25 Jul 91 12:54:07 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
(...some discussion deleted...)
>>
>>Since I'm on the subject of sex, I would like to bring up the issue of
>>pornography in DK. I understand that at one time porno cinemas were setup
>>mostly along Copenhagen's Stroeget when the Parliament legalized porno in all
>>its forms in the late 60s. But eventually the interest of porno, once it was
>>legalized, died down and most of the cinemas went out of business.
This is similar to what happened in Stockholm. Porno was completely
legalized in 1971, I think, and porno clubs and cinemas became common.
Now most of them have gone out of business. Some of this is perhaps due
to tougher laws (certain forms of porno have been re-criminalized) but
I think the recess started before the laws were sharpened.
>>At the
>>same time, in 1969 it was reported that sex crimes went down by 50%. I
>>wonder if the danes have the right idea, such as women going topless in
>>public swimming pools or beaches. Or, that nude women appear in magazines,
>>TV, etc. For example, we couldn't even see the new Madonna video, but in DK
>>of course they could. What works for the danes, could never work for us, or
>>could it?
>Ever read Playboy? It's an American magazine with pictures of nude girls.
>Ever been to Times Square in New York City? There the whores literally grab
>you by the balls. Porn is everywhere. So how would it not be legal? ;-)
Right on the point. There is a common perception in the US (and
elsewhere, for that sake) that Scandinavia is some sort of pornographic
center of the world. I have, however, never seen anything in
Scandinavia CLOSE to what you can find in certain cities in the US, as
regards pornography and prostitution. You also find much more of it in
certain other parts of Europe. Ever been to Amsterdam?
I will never forget that dreadful night in Hartford, CT, when I was
driving around asking for directions to the Civic Center and was
approached all the time by hookers who though I was a potential
customer....
As for the decline of sex crime rates when legalizing pornography, I
remember this being claimed in Sweden too. I have no firm figures,
however.
Bj"orn Lisper
|
| 10.22 | | COPCLU::GEOFFREY | RUMMEL - The Forgotten American | Fri Jul 26 1991 05:27 | 34 |
|
Re: 10.21 - sexual morality in Denmark
Sexual attitudes are much more relaxed and open here than in the
U.S. There is none (or very little) of the hypocrisy that is
found in the U.S. on sexual issues. While most Danes become
sexually active quite early in their teens there is little
teenage pregnancy here. What little there is usually is
terminated by abortion. Danes just can't comprehend the American
attitudes against abortion. (No one here would every dream of
blowing up another person over an issue such as abortion.)
While sex education is very widespread in the schools abortions
are still quite prevalent in Denmark. Frank discussions with
parents may be more prevalent than in the states but it is NOT
considered widespread enough here - that's why the Danes felt
compelled to teach comprehensive sex ed in the schools.
Fortunately, the AIDS scare has increased awareness around
condoms. The Copenhagen public buses run with AIDS advertising
campaigns - one long condom that runs the whole length of the
bus. Try that in the U.S. - the Moral Majority would blow a
gasket! There have also been very (and I mean VERY) explicit TV
shows for young people around sex, AIDS, and how to use condoms.
Probably due to the sexual openess and general tolerance of gays
by the people here Denmark had some of the earliest cases of
AIDS in Europe. On the other hand, Denmark has been in the
forefront in the fight to educate the population in how to
combat AIDS. In fact, taxi drivers ran a campaign not too long
ago, offering free condoms to couples they would drive home from
discos and bars at night. Now that's service!
|
| 10.23 | | COPCLU::BOGSTAD | Living in a tax paradise | Fri Jul 26 1991 09:20 | 23 |
| Re. 10.21
>I'm an american male with typical american values, such as I don't believe
>its right for my teenage daughter to sleep with her boyfriend under my roof.
>After talking with a few danes, I found out it is common for this type of
>arrangement to occur in Denmark.
Beeing a dane, but not yet a parent, here's the attitude that
my parents had about my sexual behaviour:
"We would like you to get your sexual experiences in your room, in
your bed with clean sheets together with a girl that we have seen
rather than you have to tell us a lie about sleeping over by a friend
and then spend the night together with a person that we have never
seen, in the backseat of a car parked somewhere we wouldn't know about!"
And then they would give me a pack of condoms to be sure that the girl
would not get pregnant.
Sould I ever become a father I will have the same attitude!
Lars
|
| 10.24 | Open discussion in Finland | TLE::SAVAGE | | Tue Jul 30 1991 12:13 | 74 |
| From: [email protected] (Kai Becker)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: SEX
Date: 29 Jul 91 15:29:44 GMT
Organization: Helsinki School of Economics, Finland
I have also wondered what has made sex so terrible issue in the States.
The usual attitude seems to be that you can't talk about sex and it's a
kind of evil thing etc.
And while sex is made 'illegal' for people under 21 (I mean videos,
porno-magazines...) you are free to buy guns and get films with extreme
violence involved. Considering this in the US logic it's more dangerous
and harmful for a child to see a naked woman/man than slaughtering of a
human being in a very brutal way or a porno-mag is more dangerous in
the hands of the children than a shotgun.
During the both lengthy visits to the States I noticed very strict
control on young people of the opposite sex in their homes and sex was
a totally forbidden topic of discussion. And the knowledge about having
a child and contraception was non-existent. On the other hand the
parents didn't care that much about their sons and daughters when they
were not doing that in their home.
I had the possibility to talk with a doctor from a town of 20000 people
in Tennessee and he told me that pregnancies were very common in the
age groups around 14-16 but not any more in the older groups. Of the
400 seniors graduated this year (I guess about half were boys) 12 girls
had a child and the number of abortions must be must even higher.
In Finland that is unheard of! I've been to two diffrent high schools
and none of the girls had a child. I haven't heard of any abortions and
the official statistics show that the number of them is quite low. So I
definitely think that a more free attitude to sex is good for the young
people!
It's the normal story of a forbidden fruit: we Finns have a very strict
control on alcoholic beverages and they are extremely expensive, so we
have a kind of 'reputation' being drunk all the time when abroad. Well,
it's the same situation with the US sex. I guess, when you don't know
about something and it's forbidden, you always want try it and kids in
the US just try it too early when they I still young and foolish.
And wouldn't you think that it's safer for your child if you tell
him/her about the sex and when it should be considered + supply him
with e.g. condoms thus saving him/her from the difficult situation of
buying them him/herself. With the social pressure of talking about
condoms (and other means of contraception as well) and the difficulties
in finding them (yes, I have also heard the stories about a pharmacian
not selling condoms to someone who is too young in his opinion) it will
quite often end up to decide not to use them.
And one additional point, at least in Finland it's possible to be good
friends with the opposite sex and sleep under the same roof without any
sexual contact.
But anyway, one will evidently try sex one day and if both persons
agree on it + contraception is taken care of, there is no reason to
forbid it. It's, after all, a natural way of getting joy and showing
friendship and mutual trust, so what's wrong with it?
-KAI
P.S. One further good point in open attitude to sex is that prostitutes
are almost non-existent in Finland. In that way we have a lesser risk
of different diseases. But still there is an advertising campaign about
the risks of AIDS going on and there a lots of signs and billboards
warning about it. That couldn't be possible in the States?
* Kai Becker - Helsinki School of Economics and Business Adminst. *
* Internet: [email protected] -The road to success *
* [email protected] is always under *
* Bitnet: becker%[email protected] construction! *
|
| 10.25 | Norway, questions & answers | TLE::SAVAGE | | Fri Aug 02 1991 15:44 | 44 |
| From: [email protected] (Steinar Bang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: SEX
Date: 2 Aug 91 14:28:53 GMT
Sender: [email protected] (NetNews Administrator)
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology, Trondheim, Norway
>>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Peter R Fay) writes:
Peter> [...]
Peter> I'm curious, though, about how openness about sexuality affects
Peter> other aspects of life in Scandanivia. What's the age of
Peter> consent?
In Norway: 16
Peter> Is sex illegal between adult and minor and at what age?
Depends on how you define minor,... Sex with anyone below the age of 16
is in principle illegal. However, I have never heard of to people below
the age of 16 being punished for having sex with each other.
I have heard of at least one case where the boy was somewhere in the
late teens and the girl was below 16, when their child was conceived.
The boy were judged guilty of having had sex with a minor, but the
sentence was suspended, because they were now living together, the girl
was (now) above the age of 16, and they had a child.
Peter> How do society's attitudes affect frequency of child sexual
Peter> abuse?
Don't know...
Peter> Is it dealt with effectively and openly, or just swept under
Peter> the rug, like here?
It used to be hushed down in Norway, as well. I *think* this has
improved somewhat in later years..
- Steinar
--
***** Real Name: Steinar Bang *** EMAIL: [email protected] *****
|
| 10.26 | American vs. Nordic stereotypes (am-type, no-type) | TLE::SAVAGE | | Fri Dec 13 1991 12:53 | 77 |
| From: [email protected] (Jon Haugsand)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Sex in Northern Parts
Date: 11 Dec 91 13:14:11 GMT
Sender: [email protected] (Jon Haugsand)
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
From: Jon Haugsand <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] (Edward Hartman)
In-Reply-To: [email protected] (Edward Hartman)'s message of 7 Dec
91 18:28:03 GMT
References: <[email protected]>
In article <[email protected]>
[email protected] (Edward Hartman) writes:
>Everybody-
>
>My friend Angela and I are confused by what seems like a double
>standard in Nordic sexual attitudes. On the one hand, Nordic peoples
>are depicted as stern, harsh and moralistic, in short, cold. On the
>other hand, the Nordic peoples are rumored to be much more open about
>sex than us prudish Americans, and to have in general a healthier
>attitude toward the entire sack thing. So, what are your impressions?
>
> -Eddie R. Hartman
> [email protected]
The following are, needless to say, my personal opinions. I can only
talk about Norway, where I live.
1) There are prudent, religious, pietistic, moralistic communities in
Norway. However, most of them are located at Vestlandet (the western
part of Norway). They are not too many, but have some real power.
2) Yes, people in Norway have double standard, like people elsewhere in
the world. I don't know if there are more or less double standards in
Norway than elsewhere. However, there is not so much double standards
in sexual attitudes as in political and economical questions.
3) Norwegians are open about sex. Picking up girls (or being picked up
by one), spending the night together, and leaving without knowing each
others name is common.
4) With the risk of being flamed to death, I will define two
stereotypes, the am-type and the no-type. The am-type is open, easy to
get known to, using first name when he presents himself, good-humored,
and so on. However, he is difficult to *really* be known to. He is
having a good time and is giving others a good time, but very seldom
does he get involved personally with others.
The no-type is difficult to be known to. He is suspicious, stout and
cold. You'll have a hard time to be able to communicate with him, but
once you've succeeded you have a friend, a real friend. He will share
with you his deepest secrets, he will feel happy when you do, and he
will feel sorry when you do. A close friend.
It is my impression that in US people tend to more close to the
am-type, and in Norway people are more like the no-type. Of course,
this is a big simplification. In Norway there are more am-types in the
big cities, and more no-types outside the cities. And with time we are
slowly moving from the no-type towards the am-type.
I was once told that the reason for all the am-types in US is that
people there tend to move more often than in Norway. You cannot get
involved with people you eventually are going to say goodbye to. In
Norway, people stay were they was born, (and their parents, their
grandparents, ...).
To you without correctness guarantee from
---
Jon Haugsand
Ifi, Univ. of Oslo, Norway
[email protected]
|
| 10.27 | Animal friends | TLE::SAVAGE | | Wed Jan 22 1992 11:39 | 32 |
| From: [email protected] (Dave Golber)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Date: 21 Jan 92 01:54:02 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation
>
>Some advice to English speakers. If you are inviting Swedish friends
>over for a dinner of A:lg, don't tell them you are serving "moose". It
>sounds all too much like "mus"
>
True story: a friend of mine works for a company that does
translations. He got some sort of article on computer stuff to be
translated from English to Norwegian (or was it Swedish), and sent it
to a nice lady he knows, who does translations to Norwegian, for her to
translate. A few days later, he got it back from her. She said it was
all fine, except for one word she didn't know how to translate:
"mouse".
This seemed very strange to him, since he speaks just about every
language in Europe himself fairly well, and he knew that "mouse" would
be something very similar in Norwegian. So he asked a second person
who speaks Norwegian and also does computer stuff. This second person
said that "mouse" is always translated as "mus" ... no trouble.
But (so I am told) "mus" is also a common slang word for the [female
privates] ... and this lady was embarrassed to be writing this dirty
stuff!
Dave Golber
|
| 10.28 | "Cat" & "mouse" | OSL09::MAURITZ | DTN(at last!)872-0238; @NWO | Thu Jan 30 1992 04:41 | 5 |
| Yes, the Norwegian word for mouse can be translated to an English word
for "cat", given the correct context.
Mauritz
|
| 10.29 | Out of wedlock | TLE::SAVAGE | | Mon Jun 22 1992 12:10 | 41 |
| From: [email protected] (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Living together without being married
Date: 22 Jun 92 08:28:55 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: SICS, Kista (Stockholm), Sweden
In article <[email protected]>, lars@spectrum
(Lars Poulsen) writes:
>"Born out of Wedlock" does not imply "absent father" in Scandinavia.
>My younger brother has lived with the same woman for 7 years, they
>own a house together, and their son is 4 years old. The statistic
>quoted would list the child as "born out of wedlock".
It would be more relevant to have statistics of the number of children
born by a woman who does not live with the father - though I guess such
statistics would be difficult to get.
By the way: What is the proper English expression used to denote a
man/woman you live together with under conditions "similar to
marriage"? In Swedish, we have the wonderful word "sambo", literally
meaning "someone who lives together". I find it a bit difficult to
refer to my "sambo" when talking English - I usually surrender and call
her my wife, although she isn't.
Another interesting thing about this is that living together without
being married is so common in Sweden (as you could guess from the
"single"-mother statistics), that special legislation for it was
introduced some years ago. This legislation mainly deals with what
happens if the couple separates.
Apart from legal issues around the relationship itself (like
inheritance and separation questions), "sambo"-relationships are
treated almost exactly as marriages in Swedish society and
administration.
Lars-Henrik Eriksson Internet: [email protected]
Swedish Institute of Computer Science Phone (intn'l): +46 8 752 15 09
Box 1263 Telefon (nat'l): 08 - 752 15 09
S-164 28 KISTA, SWEDEN
|
| 10.30 | Out of what... common law! | CSC32::D_ROYER | French, in mind, body, and actions! | Thu Jun 25 1992 14:51 | 8 |
| Living together without benefit of a wedding in most (maybe all) states
in the USA is termed "Common Law Marriage" Some places may take longer
but the most have a fixed time limit, say 7 years.
So the person is properly termed a "wife/husband" as the law says they
are united.
Dave
|
| 10.31 | The mystical allure of nordic women | TLE::SAVAGE | | Tue Feb 16 1993 11:29 | 56 |
| A variant of this topic is a current thread in soc.culture.nordic. As
usual, much of the discussion is not worth copying here, but the
following perspective has some merit, IMHO.
{But why would anyone be concerned about the virginity of under
twenty-year-olds? Under THIRTEEN years old? Now, THAT would concern
me}
From: [email protected] (GLEN TORLEIF RYEN)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Date: 15 Feb 93 20:14:19 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University
>>>I'd be very grateful if someone would explain the mystical allure of
>>>Swedish women
>Several years ago, a beer company had a TV ad which featured
>the "Swedish Bikini Team." American girls in blonde wigs.
>So I think it's related to the "Hollywood" ideal for women:
I heard a fact on the Arsenio Hall show a while ago that Sweden leads
the world in the percentage of women who lose their virginity before
the age of twenty. A Swedish friend try to explain that to me by
saying that most Swedes date early, commit to one relationship for a
while, and then have sex. From my experience, I gather that Swedish
women have higher morals than most American women (and probably a good
deal of other nationalities, too).
I think a lot of their reputation comes from their "ideal" looks
(blonde hair, blue eyes, tall, healthy, all the stereotypical
Nordic/Aryan traits). When most people think of Swedish women, a lot of
them probably think of the Swedish Bikini team (from the Old Milwaukee
Beer commercials), and scantily clad vuluptuous blondes. I don't know
how the stereotype got started, but the culture here [USA] definitely
sustains it. When companies want to associate their products with
beautiful and easy women, they think of Swedes. And that just ingrains
the image into everyone's mind. Personally, I think there's no
difference between the best looking Swedish women and the best looking
American women, although I think the average Swede is better looking
than the average American (IMHO).
As to why none of the other Nordic countries have the same stereotypes
attached to their women, I can only guess that most people associate
Sweden with Scandinavia. Since Sweden is the largest Nordic country in
population (and size?), I think they define the term "Scandinavian" for
a lot of people. So Swedish and Scandinavian are sort of synonymous in
there minds.
Just my $0.02 worth,
Glen Ryen
Lehigh U.
PS I heard that a few females from Old Milwaukee were sueing the company over
the Swedish Bikini team commercials. They claimed that the commercials lead
to harassment on the job. I don't know if they won or not, but I haven't seen
any new commercials recently....
|
| 10.32 | Significance of 20-yr threshold still unexplained | TLE::SAVAGE | | Tue Feb 16 1993 11:38 | 32 |
| From: [email protected] (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Date: 16 Feb 93 09:25:10 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: 'Vilse i Pannkakan'-survivors Anonymous
> I heard a fact on the Arsenio Hall show a while ago that Sweden leads the
>world in the percentage of women who lose their virginity before the age of
>twenty.
Read: Sweden is among those few countries that can be expected to have
honest (aka not falsified for cultural, political, religious or
prestigious reasons) statistics in that and similar areas:)
> I think a lot of their reputation comes from their "ideal" looks (blonde
>hair, blue eyes, tall, healthy, all the stereotypical Nordic/Aryan traits).
Among the ten people sitting here now, 4 have brown hair, 1 have
grey/blonde, 2 have medium blonde and 3 have blonde hair, and I think
all of us carries Swedish passports.
>PS I heard that a few females from Old Milwaukee were sueing the company over
>the Swedish Bikini team commercials.
Proof that they are more American than Swedish:) :)
-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
exercise for your kill-file."
|
| 10.33 | Morality varies from one culture to the next | TLE::SAVAGE | | Mon Feb 22 1993 15:48 | 29 |
| From: [email protected] (Dan Kiselman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Date: 18 Feb 1993 15:27:25 GMT
Organization: Uppsala University
Sender: [email protected] (Dan Kiselman)
I believe with several other posters that the main cause for this
stereotype is the success of some movies in the 50's and 60's which
featured somewhat more nudity/sex than the Hollywood norm at that time.
I remember hearing a radio journalist, an immigrant from Greece, tell
about an experience in his youth when he and his friends saw a Swedish
movie. It had some Midsummer's theme in it, and showed boys and girls
dropping off in pairs into the woods after the Midsummer's night dance.
To him and his comrades this was just unbelievable: "The girl's brother
just have to kill that boy afterwards after what they have done." When
nothing like this happened in the film, they were very confused.
Certainly there are differences in culture regarding things like sex
and nudity which predates Ingmar Bergman &Co. Showing the events of a
stereotypical Swedish Midsummer celebration or showing naked children
playing in the sunshine on a summer camp may look like signs of
immorality, sluttishness (does this word exist?) or something else to
people of another culture.
--
Dan Kiselman, Uppsala Astronomical Observatory, Sweden
[email protected]
|
| 10.34 | What's so extraordinary about a woman in a swimsuit? | TLE::SAVAGE | | Mon Feb 22 1993 15:51 | 40 |
| Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: [email protected] (Mats Winberg)
Subject: Average Swedish girl on Sports Illustrated cover
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: Ericsson
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1993 10:36:02 GMT
If you want to see how an average swedish girl look like check out the
American journal Sports Illustrated famous swimsuit issue. This year an
average swedish girl has been picked for the cover picture. Her name is
Vendela Kirsebom, 25 years old, currently residing in Los Angeles where
she is pursuing a model career. She was "discovered" by Eileen Ford in
a Stockholm restuarant when she was only 13. She is now taking drama
lessons and have obviously a movie career in mind when the modelling is
over.
Mats Winberg
Sthlm, Sweden
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: [email protected] (Christian V Lundestad)
Subject: Re: Average Swedish girl on Sports Illustrated cover
Sender: [email protected] (NetNews Administrator)
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 93 15:43:13 GMT
Actually, Vendela is a *Norwegian* girl, born in Norway. There's a
two-page feature on her in today's edition of "Dagbladet". Apparently,
she has a Norwegian mother and a Swedish father. The article says that
Vendela herself emphasizes her Norwegian background in interviews. She
also spends her holidays in Norway.
Maybe we could say that she is the outcome of successful
inter-Scandinavian cooperation? Certainly more so than anything the
Nordic Council could come up with! :-)
Christian V. Lundestad
Trondheim, Norway
|
| 10.35 | Propriety | TLE::SAVAGE | | Wed May 11 1994 11:44 | 38 |
| From: [email protected] (AP)
Newsgroups: clari.world.europe.northern,clari.news.sex,clari.biz.misc
Subject: Sweden May Ban Sexy Ads
Date: Mon, 9 May 94 11:20:26 PDT
STOCKHOLM, Sweden (AP) -- Some dads may have liked Swedish
newspaper advertisements with three young women in lacy underwear
reminding readers that "Sunday is Father's Day."
But a government committee on Monday said many Swedes are fed up
with such coy displays, and proposed tightening rules on sexual ads
and others that critics consider discriminatory.
The Father's Day ad "gives the impression that the task of
women is to be at men's disposal as sexual objects," the committee
said, quoting a report about the ad.
The committee suggested making offensive ads a criminal offense,
and fining offenders.
In the 1960s and 1970s, Sweden was in the vanguard of the sexual
revolution, a time when permissiveness became prevalent. Times have
changed.
The proposal to restrict sexual ads follows several
controversial campaigns, including one last winter that featured
Anna Nicole Smith, a U.S. model and Playboy playmate. Her picture
appeared on billboards in a nationwide campaign for the frilly
underwear she was wearing.
Critics called her scanty clothing and sex-kitten poses
"pornographic."
"I do not object to the nudity ... but there is a general
opinion that we should be able to stop the most offensive ads,"
said Inger Davidson, the Minister of Civic Affairs. Davidson said
Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland are working to jointly
restrict discriminatory advertisements.
Currently, industry ethical councils perform self-policing by
monitoring ads to try and curb those that discriminate by gender,
race, nationality or religion.
The owner of a computer store was reprimanded by an ethical
council for appearing in an ad with a computer lap-top squeezed
against her breasts. She was clothed, but the council said her
breasts were overly exposed.
|
| 10.36 | New wave erotica in Denmark | TLE::SAVAGE | | Wed Jun 15 1994 12:30 | 99 |
| From: [email protected] (Reuter/Lars Foyen)
Newsgroups: clari.news.features,clari.world.europe.northern,clari.world.top,
clari.news.sex
Distribution: clari.reuters
Subject: Something Erotic is Gripping the State of Denmark
Copyright: 1994 by Reuters, R
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 94 8:10:04 PDT
ACategory: international
Slugword: DENMARK-EROTICA
COPENHAGEN (Reuter) - If you think the sexual revolution is
a 1960s thing, then think again, or go to Denmark.
Not only it is back in the tolerant Nordic nation, but it is
to be found in such unlikely places as museums, trade fairs and
street exhibitions. Television and radio compete to exploit the
new fascination with all things carnal.
The buzzword is no longer sex, it is erotic, and proponents
endeavor to show the difference from the clinical pornography
which Denmark became one of the first countries to set free in
1969.
Some critics say they prefer the plain pornography of the
1970s rather than what they see as a media obsession with sexual
toys, spanking and bondage.
"It's a pity that the Danes' healthy interest in how to
make their sex lives more exciting should be destroyed by a
flock of technique-fixated fetishists who want everybody to join
a sado- masochist club," wrote Svend Ravn in the daily
Politiken.
A Museum Erotica, showing everything from ancient Greek
paintings to modern erotic images, opened in May on Stroeget,
Copenhagen's famed network of pedestrian shopping streets.
An erotic trade fair, Erotic Forum, drew Danes to the city's
Forum exhibition halls during four days in mid-April.
At home, national television's erotic talk show "Not
Tonight Darling" competes with commercial TV3's "Synnoeve."
National radio chips in with its late evening "Erotica"
program, hosted by rock singer Axel Nyborg Madsen and regarded
as the most daring program for its listener contributions
discussing sexual deviations hardly thought of in the 1960s.
Viewers who want more can tune in to cable television film
channels showing hard core movies after midnight.
In a recent edition of the TV3 show, hostess Synnoeve Soee
appeared in a low-cut, plastic-lacquered black dress, thigh-high
boots, long gloves and a studded leather necklace. Not
surprisingly she was cracking a whip.
A blonde topless beauty sat on a swing in the middle of the
studio while Synnoeve showed erotic films and talked with
prominent guests. Synnoeve asked members of the apparently
mainstream live audience the question: "What turns you on?"
"You," one young man replied.
"Not Tonight Darling," broadcast Friday evenings, made a
splash with a hard core, behind-the-scenes feature on the
shooting of an equally hard core German porn production.
In another program the chairman of The Black Society, Anders
Gether Soerensen, told viewers that policemen, nurses, managing
directors and others were among his members hooked on "erotic
domination."
The Black Society said it offers access to "an open
fireplace, a games room, soft sofas and hard chairs, lots of
fantasies, toys and candlelabras."
"The new erotic wave claims to be realistic, to reveal that
we are all perverse at heart but that we no longer need to be
supressed by the tyranny of the ordinary," Ravn complained.
"I honestly don't understand why some people continue to be
antagonised by these programs. Why don't they use the remote
control and watch something else instead," Soerensen retorted
in an article.
Editor-in-chief Marianne Eilenberger of Cupido, an erotic
magazine mixing short stories and nude pictures of both men and
women, described the difference between the 1960s and the 1990s.
"People used to be worried about not being normal. Now they
are worried about being boring if they don't want to carry a
whip and walk around in leather," she said. "This could be a
problem."
At the Erotic Forum trade fair, a mixed crowd of couples,
singles and groups browsed offers of 3-D sex videos, erotic
computer programs and a "love trapeze" for home use priced at
1,995 crowns ($311).
A Copenhagen health authority exhibit showed a poster
reflecting the non-moralizing way in which Denmark is fighting
AIDS. It depicted cartoons of love-making couples with the text:
"It's exciting, fun and wonderful, but do use a condom."
A bespectacled young woman, dressed in leather and with a
toddler on her shoulders, distributed leaflets at the exhibition
for The Association of Danish Sado-Masochists, SMil (SMile).
They offered members "a well-equipped gym where games can
be practised at a desired level of privacy, leather workshops
and inspiring courses in knot-tying and spanking techniques."
Some Danes worry that all the openness about sex is hiding a
national shortfall of love and togetherness.
"The Danes are not a shy and blushing people...Young and
old kiss in public and, even worse, decent people bump into each
other by the pornographic shelf in the neighborhood video rental
shop," wrote ethnographer Anne Knudsen.
"Homosexuals can get married and incest and AIDS victims
tell their detailed stories in family television programs, "
she said in an essay on the Danish national character.
"We can talk about sex but not about love, especially not
unhappy love...Isn't that a bit indecent?"
|
| 10.37 | Counter-revolution? | TLE::SAVAGE | | Mon Jul 25 1994 15:32 | 31 |
| STOCKHOLM, Sweden (AP) -- A trip to a topless club with U.S.
business associates has cost the chief of Sweden's largest
white-collar trade union his job.
Bjorn Rosengren resigned Tuesday as leader of Sweden's
Confederation of Professional Workers, which represents 1.3 million
workers. Half the union's members are women, many of whom were
upset with Rosengren for visiting an establishment they consider
degrading to women.
Rosengren admitted visiting ``Tabu'' in 1991 with some U.S.
business associates but said he didn't know it was a topless club
until he got there.
``It was a bloody mistake,'' he told reporters.
The bar, since renamed ``King's Club,'' features semi-nude
women who entice guests to buy non-alcoholic drinks.
The incident reflects a change of attitudes about sex in Sweden
since the 1960s, when Scandinavia was in the forefront of the
sexual revolution.
In recent years, feminist groups have stepped up their
campaigns against pornography and prostitution. Porn shops and cinemas
for X-rated movies that were popular two decades ago have become rare.
Sex clubs are strictly regulated and live-sex shows are banned.
Rosengren, who will stay in the job until a successor is chosen
in August, accused Swedish media of painting a ``false picture'' of
his activities. His visit to the club was disclosed by the daily
newspaper Dagens Nyheter.
``This is a case of political correctness,'' said Stig-Bjorn
Ljunggren, a political scientist at the University of Uppsala,
north of Stockholm.
Rosengren was the second labor chief in less than a year to be
drummed from office. The head of the main blue-collar union quit in
December in a controversy over payments to former members.
|
| 10.38 | Re: .37: more on Rosengren's 'night-out' | TLE::SAVAGE | | Tue Jul 26 1994 09:47 | 47 |
| From: Torkel Franzen <[email protected]>
To: International Swedish Interest discussion list
<SWEDE-L%[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 19:23:31 +0200
AP doesn't have the story quite right. First some (squalid) background.
In the seventies there were quite a few sex clubs in Stockholm. They
have since, in effect, been banned by local ordinance. That is to say,
no "public pornographic performance" is allowed. Hence the "club" Tabu
(or "King's Club"), which is a well-known con, a place where visiting
yokels and foreign businessmen are squeezed dry.
The place charges absurd prices for admission and for non-alcoholic
drinks (they don't have a license to serve liquor), prices carefully
calculated on the basis of the state of inebriation and general look of
the customer. It contains a number of naked - not just topless - young
women, who try to entice people into buying them a "drink" in a
"private room". In doing so, they make false and implicit promises of
unspecified sexual favors.
Once the usually drunken customer has been enticed, he is made to pay
as much money as he can be fooled into paying, and here they rely on
the customer not looking too closely at the credit card slips that he
signs. He is then allowed to fondle the young woman in question, but
not of course - since this would be illegal - to engage in any overt
sexual activity. The girls get a cut of the take from the sucker, and
are instructed never to say "no" to any request for sexual services,
but to equivocate until the money has been paid. The police have tried
to find grounds for conviction, but have failed to do so.
In Rosengren's case, he paid 50000 kronor (about 6000 dollars at the
current rate of exchange), using the union credit card. He claims that
he spent 45 minutes at the place, and then noticed that there was a
naked woman in the room, decided it was not a good idea to be in the
place, and left. He later settled the bill using his own money, with
the help of a lawyer, paying around 10000 kronor.
Now, looking at the matter objectively, Rosengren was played for a
sucker in a big way - whatever actually took place at the "club" - and
indeed appears a bit of an imbecile in this incident. The natural
explanation of his actions is that he was pretty drunk and didn't know
what he was doing. However, he maintains - probably not a good move -
that he wasn't at all drunk. This isn't very convincing, and the
affair didn't make him look very good in the eyes of the members. He
might well have lived it down, though, but unfortunately for him he was
also hit by stories about absurd limousine bills, and he decided to
resign.
|
| 10.39 | Pornography in Sweden: no children or violent acts | TLE::SAVAGE | | Thu Oct 20 1994 11:31 | 23 |
| From: [email protected] (Ahrvid Engholm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish feminists & pornography
Date: 20 Oct 1994 02:05:34 GMT
Organization: Stacken Computer Club, Stockholm, Sweden
Sweden has about the same pornography laws as most of Europe, that is,
ordinary porn is OK, child or violence porn is not. This thing that
Sweden should be some sort of heaven for pornography comes from that a
number of Swedish movies in the 50's and 60's was great hits abroad. By
today's standards they were really innocent (you could see short
sequences of naked couples), but film makers in other countries hadn't
dared to do anything like that! Denmark was also a country that did
such films. And we're speaking of films for the general public, not
underground XXX-rated productions, often by famous directors.
There was also a change in the laws in Sweden in 1969 (I think), that
made some porn that already existed de facto legal. But that wasn't too
drastic; many countries followed.
The question is under constant debate, though. The latest debate is
about a proposed ban on possession of child porn (distribution and
production is allready illegal).
|
| 10.40 | Teenage pregancy rates | TLE::SAVAGE | | Wed Jan 11 1995 15:09 | 22 |
| From: [email protected] (Osmo Ronkanen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Date: 11 Jan 1995 18:03:03 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Here are some statistics on births and induced abortions on age group
15-19. Figures are per 1000 females in the age group.
births (*) abortions total (excludes spontaneous abortions)
Denmark '92 9.2 16.1 25.3
Finland '91 12.2 11.5 23.7
Iceland '92 26.4 14.0 40.4
Norway '92 16.0 18.9 34.9
Sweden '92 11.9 20.4 32.3
Source: Yearbook of Nordic Statistics 1994.
(*) I think this is the number of the children born alive, not the
number of women giving birth.
Osmo
|
| 10.41 | Pedophiles on the Net | TLE::SAVAGE | | Thu Feb 09 1995 11:48 | 50 |
| STOCKHOLM, Sweden (AP) -- Pedophiles have found a home on the
Internet and exchange hundreds of pictures a week through anonymous
conduits, a researcher said Monday.
The statistics provided a glimpse at the scope of the
potentially illegal activity, which police fear can lure kids into
sex. It came from a study by Mats Wiklund, a researcher at
Stockholm University's Institute of Computer and System Science.
During a seven-day period in late December and early January,
Wiklund counted 5,651 messages or postings about child pornography
in four electronic ``bulletin boards.''
The postings included about 800 graphic pictures of adolescents
engaged in sexual acts. He said at least eight pictures showed
young children, possibly ages 8-10.
``The younger ones ... are not being shown in the act, but they
are being used as bait,'' Wiklund said.
The actual number of postings likely was higher. Wiklund
surveyed just half the ``bulletin boards'' dedicated to pornography
and could not count private messages, he said.
A few messages offer telephone numbers or other instructions
for getting more pictures for a price, but most offerings were free,
he said.
The bulletin boards were listed in Usenet, a section of the
global computer network reachable today by an estimated 24 million
people, including children.
The network operates largely without supervision, across
national borders and often in a legal gray zone.
``The Internet has become a channel of communication for
pedophiles,'' Wiklund said. ``From their point of view, they've
found a green technology. You can be anonymous and still be
reached.''
Authorities say pedophiles can make contact with children by
computer, then try to lure them into a meeting.
In most countries the distribution of child pornography is
illegal. Two years ago, U.S. police raided about 40 locations where
people were exchanging child pornography by computer. Two Danes
were convicted in 1993 of transmitting child pornography to an
estimated 6,000 people worldwide.
In his study, Wiklund said 85 percent of the messages about
child pornography were fantasy stories or tips on transmitting
pictures.
Wiklund said he could trace the message origins only as far as
a large ``server'' computer in Finland, one of several around the
world set up privately to help Internet users remain anonymous.
Finnish detective Sgt. Timo Laine said it was unclear whether
the country's laws would apply to ``electronic smuggling'' by
computer. He said did not know whether police would take action
against the computer owner in Finland.
``We've never had this kind of case before,'' Laine said. ``If
I transmit this information through the Internet, is it considered
smuggling?''
|
| 10.42 | | EEMELI::BACKSTROM | bwk,pjp;SwTools;pg2;lines23-24 | Wed Mar 15 1995 15:21 | 7 |
| Re: .41
Investigations, apparently, have shown that the stuff was coming
off a server in the U.K., but pointers were forged to look like
they were coming from the server in Finland.
...petri
|
| 10.43 | Sweden's reputation for liberal attitude towards sex | TLE::SAVAGE | | Fri Apr 28 1995 12:03 | 42 |
| To: International Swedish Interest discussion list, SWEDE-L
From: Magnus Hurd <[email protected]>
Subject: Swedish sex
I have now been in US for four months. Among Americans there is a
rather moderate interest in Sweden, I must say. However, there is an
exception: Swedish sex. I was told that some time ago here in US there
was a beer-commercial spinning on the Swedish sex-theme. It was about
some "Swedish bikini-team" emerging on the stage in the most impossible
situations in order to rescue some frustrated American guys from a
boring time. These girls were depicted in that TV-typical sexy-girl
kind of way. Of course they were blondes. Non-Swedes do not always
realize that a substantial part of the Swedish population are
non-blondes.
Don't know the stats, however. For some reason the commercial was
stopped, I have not been given the explanation for that. Hopefully
there was some noble reason.
The Swedish Bikini team. It actually put a smile on my face when I
heard about it. No, no, I am not really offended. Not at all.
Instead I ask, where does this picture of Sweden being a sex-nation
come from? I am not sure about that. Probably it does not come from
really experiensing Swedish sex, because in that case the picture would
have been different. I think I was not born (My year of birth: 1965)
when this picture was established. But I think that Sweden (I am
uncertain about this point) was one of the first, if not the first,
nations to deliver sex-education in the schools. There is a famous
woman behind that, unfortunately I have forgotten her name. I think
this kind of education was a bit sensational.
Also, there was a couple of Swedish movies in the fifties and the
sixties that may have put a sex-label on Sweden. I'm thinking of some
of the Bergman movies: "Sommaren med Monica" (it is Bergman, right?),
"Tystnaden", and so on. Another movie, a very decent one, but with some
nude pictures with an erotic tone, is "Hon dansade en sommar". The
movies by Vilgot Sjoman ("Nyfiken gul", "Nyfiken bla") may have had an
influence.
Magnus Hurd, [email protected]
|
| 10.44 | Follow up to .43 | TLE::SAVAGE | | Mon May 01 1995 11:56 | 22 |
| To: International Swedish Interest discussion list
From: Ken Schneider <[email protected]>
I think the great, early Swedish actresses were not only particularly
beautiful but liberated during a time that others were particularly
repressed. This made them stand out as very sexual (what if Sharon
Stone had been around!). This was followed by an era when Swedish
porno became available on the world market. When the US Supreme Court
came up with a definition of unprotected speech that included the
operative words "having no redeeming social value", the Swedish film
makers were the most clever in avoiding a ban on their explicit works:
they had the couple sit down for the first two minutes of the film to
speak about the importance of nuclear disarmament; then move on to
more pressing issues...
This worked for quite a while, then the Supreme Court started its long
march to the right, to make the world safe for... well... long marches
to the right, I guess.
--
Best regards: Ken Schneider ([email protected])
|
| 10.45 | Sweden's film review board is tougher on violence | TLE::SAVAGE | | Mon May 01 1995 12:01 | 25 |
| To: International Swedish Interest discussion list
From: Mats Onnestam <[email protected]>
There are only three age limits for the cinemas 7, 11 and 15. If
'Biografnamnden' thinks that the film is unsuitable for people over
15 they prohibit it for everyone. They tend to be more restrictive on
violence than on pornography, this is Sweden you know ;-). Violence
and porn combined gets the worst treatment. 'Biografnamnden' is the
only censur that we have left in Sweden.
Mats
<[email protected]>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: International Swedish Interest discussion list
From: "Rustan Finndin - L. Mayer" <[email protected]>
They can't prohibit a film - but they say which parts that have to be
cut out to pass different age limits. If too much has to be cut out the
film company often choose not to release the film. An example: Robocop
was cut more than 10 minutes in the Swedish release.
Note that this is applied to films in cinemas - other rules apply to
video and TV.
Rustan
|
| 10.46 | Liberal attitudes update | TLE::SAVAGE | | Tue Mar 12 1996 10:36 | 53 |
| From: [email protected] (Lennart Regebro)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Censorship in the NOrdic (Was: Censorship in Sweden?)
Date: 10 Mar 1996 17:33:02 GMT
Organization: Stacken Computer Club, Stockholm, Sweden
When most countries signed some kind of paper banning porn (I think it
was during the twenties) Sweden didn't sign since the paper was against
the Swedish constitution. (Sweden have one of the best protection for
freedom of speach.) Thus, Sweden got its reputation, because in Sweden
you could actually make porn magazines.
However, some time during the sixties, Denmark removed it's laws
prohibiting this stuff, and became a 'mecca' for Nordic Sex. It still
is in many senses. For example, the view on 'unusual' sex seems much
more relaxed in Denmark. Sado-Masochism seems pretty accepted, for
example, while it in Sweden seems to be taboo.
Denmark have later restricted the sex-market. As I understand it, live
shows aren't allowed anymore. I think Sweden always have had stricter
rules when it comes to this. At least it seems to be more strip-clubs
and such in Copenhagen then in Stockholm. (Maybe they just spread them
out in Stockholm, in Copenhagen there is a 'red-light' district,
Stockholm doesn't really have that).
Sweden did also restrict things a bit. First came the 'Sauna-law'. It
banned beds in 'public' places, since these beds could be used for
'horror' having intercourse in them. :) It also resulted in the closing
down of many public Saunas, since these supposedly was used as meeting
places for homosexuals, who had casual sex there.
Sweden (just like Denmark) doesn't allow distribution of
child-pornography. Although you legally can own it, the police can take
it, since it is evidence for child-misuse. Owning it is not an offence,
though.
It is the same for what is called' violence-pornography'. Exactly what
this is seems rather loosely defined, and I don't know if somebody
actually has been convicted for distributing it. I think it is aimed
against S&M, but I'm not sure. Maybe it is just to stop snuff movies
and such.
Norway doesn't allow pornography, and I thing it is the same in
Iceland. (At least I haven't seen any magazines in the stores here,
so..).
I don't know about Finland.
--
Lennart Regebro: [email protected]
Moderator comp.os.netware.announce: [email protected]
Object-Fax technical support: [email protected]
Home Page: http:/www.traffic.is/~lennart/
|
| 10.47 | Rating films in Denmark and Finland | TLE::SAVAGE | | Wed Mar 13 1996 09:58 | 34 |
| From: [email protected] (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Censorship?
Date: 12 Mar 1996 10:36:38 GMT
Organization: Universitas Hafniensis
Anyone over 16 can also get into 'X', 'XXX', 'NC-17' and 'TOO HOT TO BE
SHOWN IN THE U S OF A' rated films.
In Denmark, you can show any film to audiences over 16 years. [Unless]
possessing and/or showing the film is criminalized by some other means
(like child porn is). If you want to allow younger audiences to see a
film, it has to be accepted by the Statens filmcensur (State Film
Censorship Office).
In Finland, all films are subject to a preview by the Valtion
Elokuvatarkastamo (State Film Approval Office), which can approve the
film for all audiences or for audiences above a certain age. The
highest age limit is K-18. If a film can't be shown as K-18 as such, it
must be cut or it can't be shown. "Casino" received a K-18 without
cutting.
For videos, the Finnish system requires the limit to be K-16 or less,
so K-18 films have to be cut to be releasable on video. However, such
restrictions don't exist on import for own use, so the real enthusiasts
can get their films uncut from England or Denmark, for instance.
In some (most) things Denmark is very liberal compared to Finland, in
other things it is rather conservative.
To keep in the context, there has been some debate in Denmark about the
007 GoldenEye, and why 13...15-year-olds can't see it (because it
wasn't subjected to Statens filmcensur). In Finland, such age limits
for instance are treated somewhat more pragmatically.
|
| 10.48 | Sexual conduct in the Norwegian military | TLE::SAVAGE | | Tue Apr 29 1997 13:50 | 30 |
| From: Sturla Molden <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: question about norwegian military
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 00:37:20 +0200
Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology
> Q: What is the policy of the Norwegian military concerning consentual
> realationships between military people of different rank who work
> together. Is it forbidden?
Forbidding consentual relationships is a very uncommon practice in
Norway. I have never heard of any such cases. This is regarded a
private matter.
Remember that Norway has a much more liberal practice on concentual
relationships than the US. For example. we allow homosexual marrages,
relations between professors and students, cuckoldry is not a marshall
offence etc.
From what I know, the only demand given by the army is that the part of
the relationship that involves any 'physical work' is kept discrete.
The most famous 'sexual restiction' imposed on the recruits is a rule
against 'self stimulation' on duty, which can be a problem when 18-19
year boys (the age and sex of most norwegian recruits) are deprived of
girls for periods up to a month. The punishment is rather deterring:
The nature of the 'offence' is informed to all other recruits in
plenum, when they a lined up for drill-instruction.
Sturla Molden
|