Conference turris::scandia

  I would think that the 'k' in k�tbullar (kj�ttkaker in Norwegian)
  would be more difficult. Even Norwegians have problems with that
  pronounciation! It's pronounced like the German 'ch' (like 'Ich')
  
  	Terje.

  One of my old Swedish teachers claimed that the Swedes used the
  number 7777 as a password in a war - don't remember which one.
  Only a native Swede could pronounce it right!  (I don't mean
  to discourage any prospective student of Swedish.  You can get
  by using the Finnoswedish pronunciation of 'sj' which is very
  much like 'sh' in English.)
  
  SJ

  Some say that the way Swedish is pronounced in Finland is actually
  (historically) more correct (at least it's easier for me!).
  
  being a minority language in Finland, it has probably preserved
  a more archaic pronunciation.
  
  In any case, I have no difficulties in pronouncing 'k�ttbullar'
  the Finnish way (the k is approximately like 'tsh').
  
  

    Only a Finn could come up with that one :) !
    
    Terve Ora!
    
    Peter

    
    Well, I'm a new user to VAXnotes and this is the first time I've
    felt motivated to reply to anything.  I'd just like to express my
    appreciation to everyone involved in this particular note.  I've
    always wanted to learn to speak Swedish, but unfortunately my only
    avenue to achieve this goal was solely through books.  Thus, I became
    frustrated early on as I had no REAL guide to pronunciation. (Although
    my grandmother was from Sweden, she died when I was young, and
    relatively uninterested in learning other languages.)  If anyone
    has any suggestions as to where to actually hear some Swedish in
    the Boston area, I'd be most appreciative.  I'd also be interested
    in knowing about Scandinavian cultural activities in the area.
    ANY helpful information would be appreciated.  My VAXmail address
    is CSTVAX::CARLSON. Thanks.
    
    					Hej,
    
    					Scott Carlson
    

    Re: .5: Hearing some Swedish spoken in the Boston, Mass area.
    
    I wonder if the description of the "Swedish dinner table" at Harvard,
    described by Martin in Note 43 is still current.

Yes, but I think the dates have changed.  In fact, I think there's
one this evening!

There are Swedish language evening classes given in the Boston area
by the Cambridge Center for Adult Education.  (Or is it the Boston
Center?)

If you read Swedish, you should subscribe to "Gult och Bl�tt i Boston,"
a quarterly newsletter written by and for the Swedish community.
(Mentioned somewhere in this notesfile.)

Martin.

    Check with the Swedish Consul in Boston.  His office is in the old
    Record-American building.  The Swedish government subsidizes a Svenska
    skola for children of Swedish ancestry in Lexington, Mass.

    RE: 5 The Boston Center for Adult Education has Beginning Swedish
    courses available. Generally, they have a Swedish I & II although
    not usually during the same semester.
    
    ...Eric

"Attention: All Swedes, students in Swedish classes, and Swedish
speakers at *all* levels:

There will be a Swedish Dinner Table in the Harvard University
Leverett House D-entry Dining room at 5:30 to 7:00 pm on the
following Wednesdays:

	Oct. 8, 22, Nov. 5, 12, 19, Dec. 10, 17.

Enter from Mill Street, enter courtyard, go left to D-entry.  The
diningroom is immediately to the right in the cafeteria.  (Food
cost is about $5.80 for genuine student dorm cooking.)

for more information, call Birgitta Dahlgren Knuttgen at
(617) 495-2339 (Harvard U.) or (617) 369-3399 (home).

Birgitta teaches Swedish courses at Harvard -- the guests
include students, visiting faculty, and people who have lived
in Sweden.  Many of the people are just learning Swedish.

Also, to subscribe to Gult och Bl�tt i Boston, send $7.00
to Gult och Bl�tt, 50 Pine St. Wellesley, MA 02181.

Martin.

    Thanks for all the suggestions everyone.  They were all much
    appreciated.
    
    Are there any notes on this particular file that keep a current
    tally of Scandinavian culture/heritage type events, or should one
    simply look for new notes as they come up?  I'm new to the area,
    and I understand I missed one or two area Swedish festivals last
    summer.  I don't want to miss anything like this again, so I hope 
    this is the place to look to avoid bypassing activities of this sort.
    
    					H�lsningar!
    
    					Scott
                

    Re: .11:
    
    This conference may occasionally mention or announce coming events,
    depending on the interests of contributors. But the number of events
    in each Scandinavian country makes compiling a comprehensive listing
    practically very arduous (to say the least).  In Finland, for example,
    two dozen events were listed in the Finnish Tourist Board brochure
    for July 1986 alone [and there's no telling what they may have
    omitted].
    
    The best tactic would be to contact the source cited in Note 2.5
    (see Note 2.10 for inventory of materials sent). Other sources of
    information are also in Topic No.2
    
    A summary listing of what are consider "top" (usually summer) events
    is usually compiled by each country. If there is sufficient interest,
    I will put in that _condensed_ list for 1987 as soon as it becomes
    available.  [Use Note 149 to register your interest.]

    If by .11 is meant Scandinavian events in North America, this moderator
    has not researched the available sources of information, such as
    the Sons of Norway, for example.  If any of you paricipants have
    pointers to such information, please share the wealth.

Gult och Bl�tt i Boston (mentioned in several previous notes) has
a comprehensive list of Swedish events in the New England area.
In the past year, this has included announcement of a Bergman
retrospective at Harvard, a recital by the Swedish baritone
H�kan Hageg�rd in New York, and various lodge picnics.

Unfortunately, you need some reading knowledge of Swedish to
access this newsletter.

Martin.

    note to cst::carlson
    SCANDIA JULFEST [ XMAS PARTY ] IS 6 DEC.AND YOU DON;T HAVE TO BE
    A MEMBER TO COME.MORE INFO.CALL ME AT 262-8382 OR VAXMAIL TO 
    CYGNUS::OLSEN

    Well, this note may be a bit old, but I do have some questions on
    pronunciation.  In particular, the vowels with diacritical marks.
    I do speak German, so I know the pronunciation of �.  Are they
    the same in Swedish and Finnish?  What about �?  Can these be
    answered without examples?
    
    Also, will German and English suffice for getting around Sweden
    and Finland?  Will the German help or hinder my understanding the
    languages there?
    
    Going on vacation soon...
    >Mark

This terminal doesn't have 8-bit characters, so you'll have to
excuse the clumsiness.

Slashed-o is the Danish/Norwegian equivalent of O-with two dots.
The two letters function identically in the different languages.
(Sort of like German "slashed-7" vs. American "unslashed-7".)

The letter you haven't encountered is A-ring. It is pronounced
more-or-less as "o" in "boat."  (English dipthongizes tense
vowels, while Scandinavian languages don't; but don't worry about
it.)

German might help  you read the Scandinavian languages (Finnish
is *not* Scandinavian), but English will prove to be the easiest
language to communicate in.  Older people still have bad memories
of World War II.

I would suspect that your plain unvarnished English will work
better than any attempt you might make at "native" pronunciation.

Have a nice vacation.

Martin.

    re: .16
    
    I assure you that in Finland, you'll get along quite nicely with
    English. German might be a bit problematic, or so I have heard
    from many Germans who have visited this country. 
    
    If you want to be able to say something in Finnish, try 'kiitos' (thank
    you): it is pronounced something like 'key-toss'.
    
                                                         
    Maarit
    

Group soc.culture.nordic
article 372

From: [email protected] (Vicki L. Almstrum)
Subject: On learning Swedish
Organization: U. Texas CS Dept., Austin, Texas
                      
    I moved to Sweden in February of 1984 to work for Philips Electronics
    in the Stockholm area.  One of my goals was to learn Swedish as quickly
    and as well as I could.  Sweden has wonderful laws to support the
    immigrant, once one becomes an immigrant.  Every immigrant is entitled
    to 240 hours of free Swedish instruction -- and the employer is
    required to give paid time for the study of Swedish.

    My personal pattern was private instruction, rather than the
    state-offered courses (they tend to be taught at a low level). 
    Instead, I was given private lessons in my office at work and was sent
    to an intensive course (where I was the only student and had 3
    instructors).  It all worked out quite well.  By Midsommar (at the end
    of June) I could speak well enough that I could relate stories for the
    friends I celebrated with.  Of course, I spoke so slowly and haltingly
    at that point, that everyone sat on the edge of their chair and tried
    through sheer will to p-u-u-l-l-l the words from my mouth.

    Getting people to speak Swedish with me was not simple -- (nearly)
    everyone in Sweden likes to practice their Swedish if the opportunity
    presents itself. But if I insisted on replying in Swedish, even with
    them carrying on their part of the conversation in English, they would
    eventually lapse into Swedish too.  Speaking with very young children
    and reading for them was also a very good technique for practicing and
    improving my Swedish.

    The point at which I really *knew* my Swedish was good was the day I
    made a speech to a project group of about 70 people.  I cracked a few
    jokes along the way - and they laughed when I expected.  It was a
    wonderful feeling!

-- Vicki                                                                   

Group soc.culture.nordic     
article 478

From: [email protected] (David Walden)
Subject: a Warning to Americans
Organization: Information Sciences Institute, Univ. of So. California

    OK, fellow Sandbox Americans.  Let me save you from initial confusion
    and embarassment, embarassment like offering your Scandinavian host
    cough medicine or an anti-histimine for his hay fever.  What I refer to
    is The Scandinavian Wheeze.

    You Scandies know what I mean.  I first heard it in Stockholm at a
    small hotel which was run by a youthful-looking retired lawyer and his
    wife.  The retired lawyer (appearing about 45) was giving me directions
    to Stahlma"sterga^den, a place he recommended as having a good and
    authentic Swedish smo"ga^sbord. He was mentioning this dish and that
    and telling me the order in which to eat things, and at one point, he
    let out a loud wheeze.  It was a sudden spastic inhalation, like he had
    suddenly remembered he hadn't breathed for two minutes and he had
    better catch up NOW.  Thirty seconds later, he did it again.  And then
    again.  I was getting a little uncomfortable I thought "Oh, this poor
    man.  That's why he had to give up law.  He has this disruptive speach
    impediment."

    A week later, I was visiting a woman I was told to look up in Malmo". 
    We stopped at the market where she worked to get some food for a
    picnic, and she was speaking to a friend of hers in the market when I
    heard her wheeze.  And then she did it again!  "Oh," I thought, "she
    has it, too."  And then her friend wheezed back.  At that point, I felt
    I had to make a quick decision. Either this was contagious, and I had
    better get out of there. Or this was cultural, and I had better find
    out what it meant. Soon.

    Well, I discussed this with her in casual gentle tones, and she told me
    it's an expression implying close sincerity.  You do it when you're
    discussing deep personal topics, sort of like a conspiratorial sigh.

    Since then, I've also heard it in Norway.  For all I know, it's all
    over Scandinavia.  A girl in Bergen told me that it gets carried to
    extremes in the Faroe Islands where the people will speak an entire
    sentence while inhaling.  Now a friend from Stockholm tells me as a
    girl in Nykvarn, a Stockholm suburb, she would speak entire phrases
    while inhaling.  I imagine if one had a tickle in his throat, speaking
    to friends in Scandinavia would become impossible.  "Ja (with a
    wheeze).  Cough!  Cough!"


                         Dave Walden
                         [email protected]                          

    Ja!  (while inhaling)
    
    Ever walk into a new place and recall old times by an odor? - Like a
    few years ago visiting, with my father, a friend he had not seen in 50
    years.  I'd swear, if my eyes were closed, I was in my grandparents
    cellar 50 years ago (aboslutely spotless, floor scrubbed ever Sat
    AM!).  Maybe all Norskies use the same soap or something. 

    Well, "Ja" had the same effect.  I had to read to the bottom of
    -.1 and pronounce it myself, and memories flooded back!  All of
    the Norwegians did it, in Brooklyn, anyway.  I think my father still
    does.  Go'na check it out when I see him this afternoon.
    
    Fred

    Group soc.culture.nordic
    article 978

    From: [email protected] (David Walden)
    Organization: Information Sciences Institute, Univ. of So. California

    ....

    Find a good language tape or find a native speaker, but don't think
    you're going to get a pronunciation by reading about it.

    For instance, for years I had read that the Sacandinavian "aa" or "�"
    is pronounced "aw".  Wrong!  When I finally got to Copenhagen, a Dane
    pointed out that it was like the "o" in "pot", but as an Englishman
    would say it, not "paht", as an American would say it.  Another way to
    express that is to take out the American "oo" from the American
    diphthonged word "oh", leaving the pure "o", and THAT is "�".  It might
    sound like the way YOU say "aw", but how the hell do I know how you say
    "aw"?

    For instance, in Swedish, the long "a", as in "Ja, jag taler med
    Anders" is pronounced like the American "aw", as in "Aw shucks". But
    how do YOU know how I think other Americans say "Aw shucks"?

    For instance, you don't know whether I'm right or wrong - unless you
    speak Swedish AND you speak American English!  Give up! Forget visual
    language learning and stick to aural.


                           Dave Walden
                           [email protected]                        
                                                               

    From: [email protected] (Bjorn Larsen)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Re: Mixing V's and W's
    Date: 7 Nov 89 19:59:06 GMT
    Organization: USE, University of Oslo, Norway
    In-Reply-To: [email protected]'s message of 6 Nov 89 23:36:48 GMT
 
    In article <[email protected]> [email protected]
    (Scott Gould) writes:
 
>                                          Conversely, are their similar
>   "oddities" that native english speakers collect as bad speech habits
>   when trying to learn scandinavian languages?               
 
    The lack of W in the Scandinavian languages tends to get us all confused
    when trying to learn English. (We *have* the letter in our national
    alphabets, though. It's just not used.)
 
    Personally I have to stop and think every once in a while when I try to
    write words like overview, overwrite and review; that is, words with
    both V and W in them. The letters easily get interchanged. I get them
    right most of the time, as you can see above (I hope :-), but I have to
    stop and spell it out mentally.
 
    One of the characteristics I have noted with English-speaking persons
    that try to learn Norwegian is that they invariably get the genders of
    the nouns mixed up. A few years ago I took a Texan friend skiing in the
    mountains. He has been living here in Norway for many years (Norwegian
    grandmother), and speaks Norwegian quite well. We spent a number of
    hours climbing a peak, and on the top we sat down for a well-deserved
    rest. He looked at the scenery in front of him, sighed deeply, and
    uttered: "Bj�rn, for et nydelig utsikt!". (Bjorn, what a wonderful
    view!)
 
    He was quite surprised to find me breaking down in laughter beside him.
    A view (en utsikt) is a male noun, and using the neuter article (et)
    with it sounds really strange to a native speaker of Norwegian.
 
    By the way, in Norwegian we have two words, b�nner (beans) and b�nder
    (farmers) that are pronounced  so much alike that only a native speaker
    of Norwegian can distinguish between them. At least, that is  what my
    old English-teacher (an Irishman) once told me.
 
    Oh, yes, when reading this though after writing it, I had to correct a
    typo. I had spelled view as wiev!
 
 
    -- 
    Bjorn Larsen                       [email protected]
    USE, University of Oslo, Norway    ...!mcvax!nac!bl
                                       [email protected]

	Re: .20 & .21:
    
    From: [email protected] (Anders Engwall)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Re: Swedish "asthma"?
    Organization: Ellemtel Utvecklings AB, Stockholm, Sweden

    Date: 30 Jan 90 12:43:11 GMT

In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Carol Rogers)
|writes:
>
>
>
>  > Does anybody know the term for that strange indrawing of the
>  > breath  that occur  with a "yuhhhhhhhhh" [stuff deleted]
>Yes, that is uaually a Swede agreeing with what you have just said.
>You are correct, a lot of Swedes don't admit they do this.
[stuff deleted]
>carol

    I think I read or heard somewhere that this is a habit that mainly
    exists in Norrland (northern Sweden). Somehow this makes sense: you
    produce this particular sound by saying "jo" while inhaling, and "jo"
    translates into "yes" up there... QED, or am I totally lost here? :-)
    However, this could be an explanation why some swedes don't admit doing
    it. They simply don't have that habit.

                                                Anders
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: [email protected] (Erik Karlsson)
    Organization: TeleLOGIC AB, Lulea, Sweden

    Date: 30 Jan 90 08:23:41 GMT

    It would be very interesting to know from where, the "Swedes" you are
    referring to, was supposed to be. In the north of Sweden, a small
    district called "Norrland" (only 2/3 of the Swedish territory) there is
    a habit of almost "whistling inwards", and it's used to confirm to the
    person you're talking to that you're still listening. I've seen that
    Americans (from the US) use a nod on their head for the same purpose.
    The Swedish "thing" is also used for the same purpose as "yes".

    And as Carol said; it's so natural, that nobody ever thinks about it.
    Do you think of when you nod your head?

        There's an old joke about this:
        Q: Do you know why there's no dust on the tables in Norrland?
        A: Yuhhhhhhhh...      (The "inwards whistle")

        O /
        -X---------------------------------------------------------------
        O \     Erik Karlsson           ! f u cn rd ths,
                [email protected]  ! u cn gt a gd jb n
                tel. +46920 754 22      ! cmptr prgrmmng
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
 

    From: [email protected] (Anders Holtsberg)
    Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Date: 2 Feb 90 12:12:28 GMT

    I really can't see (hear?) what sound this "asthma" is. But in northern
    Sweden (approximately north of G�vle  they have the sound  "shshshupp" 
    which sounds like recording the opening of a beer can and play the tape
    backwards. It must be pronunced breathing inwards. The meaning is
    exactly "Yes".

    A way to clean the floor under your sofa is to throw in i norrl�nning
    ("northlander") under the sofa and ask him:

     -Is there any dust?

     -shshshupp!

    ---------------
       Anders
                                               

    From: [email protected] (Jon Forrest)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Swedish Pronounciation (was Swedish language tapes)
    Date: 27 Mar 90 17:20:01 GMT
    Organization: Sybase, Inc.
 
    That was an excellant summary of the available tapes [posted at Note
    56.10 - TT]. When I lived in Sweden I lived with Gunnar Fant's family.
    For those of you who aren't linguistically bent, Gunnar Fant is one of
    the fathers of acoustic phonetics who did much of his early research on
    Swedish vowels. Much of his work describes the shape of the vocal tract
    necessary to produce the Swedish vowels. This work helped me a lot to
    understand how to speak Swedish better. I'd recommend to those of you
    who are trying to gain a better Swedish accent to first gain some
    knowledge of phonetics and vocal tract anatomy. Then, when you are
    trying to imitate a foreign sound, first try to understand the
    phonetics of the sound. Your chances of success will be greater if your
    mouth is doing what the native speaker's is doing. This applies to any
    language.
 
    I'm going to ask Gunnar's daughter (who lives in Santa Barbara) to ask
    him if he has the Svensk Uttal tapes. I think if anybody does he, or
    his research department at KTH, would have them.
 
    Also, speaking of the infamous sj/sk sound. I once did an experiment at
    UCSB with about 6 Swedes, all of whom came from different parts of
    Sweden. All of them pronounced this sound differently. I asked all of
    them to say the number 7 (sju). The range was from Maria Fant who's
    from Djursholm and pronounces it exactly like an American would
    pronounce 'shoe', to someone from Goteborg who, if I recall correctly,
    pronounced it in a manner similiar to the French 'rue'. This was quite
    a range.
 
    ----
    
    Anything you read here is my opinion and in no way represents Sybase,
    Inc.
 
    Jon Forrest WB6EDM
    [email protected]
    {pacbell,sun,{uunet,ucbvax}!mtxinu}!sybase!forrest
    415-596-3422

    From: [email protected] (Frank L Ross)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Date: 26 Sep 90 17:37:32 GMT
    Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
 
 
    ... Finlandssvenska is ... a dialect of Swedish, which is characterized
    by being spoken slowly and  clearly! It is much easier to comprehend
    than many dialects from Sweden proper, especially Skaanska which often
    leaves anyone north of Markaryd clueless. Skaanska, of course, is
    influenced by Danish or whatever dialect was spoken in Skaane as part
    of the Danish kingdom of the 17th Century. Simliarly, Finlands- svenska
    is influenced by Finnish in its intonation, tempo etc.. A Swede may
    ridicule or look down on  someone speaking Finlandssvenska, but that is
    purely a function of that misguided Swede's superior attitude towards
    Finns.  Unfortunately, the prejudice against Finns in Sweden is due to
    stereotype characterizations such as Finnish drunks in the Stockholm
    tunnelbana.
 
    The Swedish spoken in Norrland is also spoken slowly and often omits
    verb conjugations. Similarly, a Stockholmer will exhibit his
    haughtiness towards a Norrlaenning by ridiculing his speech. I could go
    on forever about various dialects: Smaaland, Goteborg, Vaermland,
    Dalarna, Gaevle, and don't forget Gotland!! In other words don't say
    that there is Finnish Swedish and Riks- svenska; thereby implying that
    the division should fall there. Instead, add Finlandssvnska to your
    compendium of Swedish dialects.
 
    In my opinion, Finlandssvenska is one of the prettiest dialects. It is
    spoken as written, and if the speaker is fluent, gramatically correct.
    For example 18 is technically aderton, and is pronounced with the 'd'
    in Finlandssvenska, while in Rikssvenska it is pronounced and often
    written as arton. A foreigner who is learning Swedish will have
    considerable trouble comprehending  Stockholmska which is fast and
    slang-ridden, albeit real Swedish as far as I am concerned.
 
    Concerning Finlandssvenskar, I thought the number [of speakers] was
    closer to 10% [of the total Finnish population]. What proportion of
    SF-svenskar speak Finnish? What is the total per centage of Finns that
    speak Swedish? Didn't the Finns abolish compulsory Swedish in schools
    during the 70's and then reintroduce it? In my opinion, a reason that 
    Swedish remains as an official language is that Finlandssvenskar occupy
    the upper echelon of society. What about universities? Would Aabo
    Akademi survie if Swedish were no longer an official language?
 
    Furthermore, I think Finland would loose its connections to Norden if
    Swedish  were abolished, inasmuch as that there must be a bridge
    between Nordic countries in the form of language if there is to be a
    semblance of "Nordic Unity". I am sure that it is easier to learn
    German and English with Swedish as a foundation, although I realize
    that English is taught from an early age anyway.
 
 
    [email protected] AIK SM-GULD 1990! AIK HOCKEY SM-GULD 1991! 

    From: [email protected] (Dave Walden)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Swedish dictionaries
    Date: 16 Jan 91 00:00:57 GMT
    Sender: [email protected]
    Organization: USC-Information Sciences Institute
 
 
    	   The most complete bookstore that I have found in Stockholm is
    Akademibokhandeln.  Besides a large selection of children's	books (my
    favorite section), there are several groups of shelves in the basement
    level devoted to texts to be used in learning Swedish.  
    
    In one of my prowlings about that section, I was in search of a
    pronouncing dictionary - a dictionary that includes definitions of
    standard pronunciations as well as the meanings of words.  This is a
    standard feature of almost all English dictionaries, but it appears to
    be rare in a Swedish dictionary.  
    
    The saleswoman didn't know of any Swedish dictionary with a
    pronunciation guide, and she seemed a little puzzled that I would even
    expect to find one.  And she seemed a little annoyed when I asked "What
    does a Swedish person do when they don't know how	to pronounce a
    Swedish word - do they call their mother?"
 
    	   Ok, so I'm a smart-ass.  And the saleswoman was able to find	a
    Swedish dictionary (in Swedish) which had pronunciations.  But I'm
    still curious.  What DOES a Swedish person do when he/she	doesn't
    know how to pronounce a Swedish word?
 
 
				Dave Walden
				[email protected]

     From: [email protected] (Peter Herman x5495)
     Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
     Subject: Re: Swedish dictionaries (and de/dem)
     Date: 17 Jan 91 04:15:26 GMT
     Sender: [email protected]
     Organization: NMSU Computer Science
 
    Dave Walden requested information on Swedish dictonaries which had
    pronouncing guides along with the word definitions.  I have one which,
    while it does not give the pronouncing guide for every word, gives all
    irregular words.
 
    It is:
 
    Bonniers Svenska Ordbok by Malmstr�m, Gy�ori and Sj�gren, 1986 (1988
    printing) ISBN 91-34-50727-2. I assume it is available at most any
    bookstore, surely at Akademibokhandeln.
 
 
    I hope this helps.
 
 
   *****************************************************************
   [email protected]
   Peter Herman, Department of Biology, New Mexico State University,
   Las Cruces, NM USA, 88005. Phone 505-646-4532.
   *****************************************************************
--
  *****************************************************************
   [email protected]
   Peter Herman, Department of Biology, New Mexico State University,
   Las Cruces, NM USA, 88005. Phone 505-646-4532.
  *****************************************************************

    From: [email protected] (Dave Walden)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Svenska Ord (a dictionary w/pronunciations)
    Date: 17 Jan 91 22:15:06 GMT
    Sender: [email protected]
    Organization: USC-Information Sciences Institute
 
 
	   As mentioned by Uwe Geuder, there is a book called "Svenska Ord -
	med uttal och f�rkl�ringar" (Swedish Words - with pronunciations and
	definitions) or just "Svenska Ord" for short.  It's in the "Lexin"
	series of language curricula for immigrants.  It is written by
	Skol|verstyrelsen and Statens Institut f�r L�romedlesinformation
	(School Supervisory(?) and the State Institute for Learning Material
	Information).  The producer and distributor is Esselte Stadium in
	Solna, and the printer is Norstedts Tryckeri in Stockholm.  It was
	copyrighted in 1984 by Skol|verstyrelsen, Stockholm, with ISBN
	91-24-23487-1.
 
	   Svenska Ord claims to define approx. 16,000 commonly-used words
	and about 1,000 useful to immigrants adjusting to Swedish society.
	Expecially handy is a section of color drawings depicting approx.
	1,700 everyday nouns and a few verbs.  Included are everyday
	objects (clothing, parts of the body, food, household items), geo-
	graphical features, urban features and conversational topics (i.e
	weather terminology  :) ).
 
	   I bought my copy in '88 at Akademibokhandeln ("list price 217 Skr,
	our price 193 Skr").  Of course, if you tell them it's for export,
	they'll put a tape over the top of the plastic shopping bag so that
	you can't peek at the book and the pictures until you're past
	customs, and they'll give you a certificate to give to customs when
	you leave the country that will get you a 20% rebate.  Don't plan on
	buying a bunch of these for your friends and carrying them back in
	your luggage - "Svenska Ord" is a deskbook, not a pocketbook.  BTW,
	if you go out of control buying books at Akademibokhandeln, they will
	rescue you by shipping them to your foreign address, and you automatic-
	ally get the discount.
 
 
				Ha det s� bra!
 
				Dave Walden
				[email protected]

    From: [email protected] (raymond thomas pierrehumbert)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Re: SIBBO/SIPOO
    Date: 17 Feb 92 04:22:48 GMT
    Sender: [email protected] (News System)
    Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
                                      
 
    (Of Finlandsvenska)

   >I always thought in sounded kind of funny, Swedish spoken with roughly
   >the same phonemes as Finnish.

    Actually, I don't think it's so much the phonemes that make
    finlandsvenska sound a bit strange to the Swedish ear.  It's true that
    the funny front-rounded vowel spelled "u" is missing (thank goodness!),
    but the main thing is the intonation pattern.  Finnish has a simple
    intonation: you basically stress the first syllable in an utterance and
    dribble off to nothing as you approach the end of the sentence. 
    Swedish has the characteristic complex singsong intonation (more
    complex than Norwegian, which basically stresses every other syllable).
 
    I learned (sort of ) Swedish in Stockholm, but I was with some swedes
    and finns in Helsinki, speaking swedish, and one of the  Swedes asked
    "V�rfor pratar du Finlandsvenska", and one of the Swedish finns
    answered, "d�rfor att det �r naturlige s�tt att prata svenska."
 
    It's sort of true.  Swedish has a rather easy vocabulary and grammar. 
    What is difficult for foreigners is the vowel systm (particularly "u"
    vs. "y", as in "nu" vs "ny") and the stress/ accent pattern (as in
    anden (the duck) vs anden (the breathing, or something like that). 
    Swedish is ALMOST a tone language.

    re .-1
    
    Swedish & Eastern Norwegian are both "tonal" languages, in the sense
    that tone can convey meaning. In that sense they are equally "complex",
    though not nearly as tonally complex as Chinese (I seem to recall that
    they have 7 "tones", but that may be hear-say). The phenomenon
    represented in Swedish (duck vs breath) is essentially the same as in
    Norwegian; English based books on Norwegian call this "single-tone" vs
    "double-tone". In both cases the "stress" is on the first syllable of
    such tone-dependent words. However, in the "double-tone" variety, the
    first syllable seems to get an imperceptible "second" stress of a
    slightly descending tone, and the subsequent second syllable is at
    a yet higher pitch.  In single-tone pronunciation, the first
    syllable gets a single clear stress, but at a lower pitch than that of
    the subsequent second syllable. (Typical Norw example is "b�nner" vs
    "b�nder", or beans vs farmers; phonemically the same, but tonally
    different (nd being pronoundec like nn).
    
    The difficulty does not come from having to reproduce the sounds
    emanating from the Swe/Nor's mouth; this is not necessary since both
    languages have dialects that lack the tonal aspect. The problem lies in
    "tuning the ear" to understanding speakers with a tonal pronunciation.
    
    Mauritz
    

    From: [email protected] (R. Peter Herman)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Re: Norden does it mean anything?
    Date: 26 Mar 92 18:14:21 GMT
    Sender: [email protected]
    Organization: NMSU Computer Science
 
    Jan writes that as a northerner in Sweden he has some trouble
    understanding southerners.  He is obviously in good company in having
    problems with the "thick" Sk�nska that is spoken in parts of the south.
    The Danish film Pelle the Conqueror is about southern Swedes who go to
    a Danish island as indentured workers.  When we saw the movie in
    Stockholm, both the Danish and Sk�nska were texted.  Our current
    exchange daughter's G�teborska is noticibly different from our first
    daughters Stockholmska(??) both in pronounciation and word choice
    though there is not nearly the difference that you hear with Sk�nska.

 --
 ******************************************************************************
 *                                                                            *
 *     [email protected]                          R. Peter Herman               *
 *                                              Dept. of Biology              *
 *     Phone: 505-646-4532                      New Mexico State Univ.        *
 *     Fax:   505-646-5665                      Las Cruces, NM 88003 USA      *
 *                                                                            *
 ******************************************************************************

    From: [email protected] (Eric Thomas, SUNET)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Re: Learning Swedish (Was Re: Learning Norwegian
    Date: 29 Apr 92 16:35:17 GMT
    Sender: [email protected]
    Organization: Swedish University Network (SUNET), Stockholm, Sweden
 
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Torkel
    Franzen) writes...

 >  You can get along in Sweden on English alone
 
    That is true - you usually can, if you insist.
 
   >However, if you do want
   >to learn Swedish, it's not at all difficult. Opening one's mouth and
   >actually trying to speak to natives in a foreign tongue is a brave thing
   >to do for most of us; naturally nobody will think you foolish.
 
    That part does indeed work. The difficult part is:
 
   >There
   >is the risk, however, that people will switch to English to make sure
   >you understand what they're saying.
 
    This is, unfortunately, completely wrong. You go somewhere with a
    friend, say a restaurant. You sit down and start a conversation with
    him, in English. The waitress comes in and hears you talking English,
    so she assumes you must be foreigners and consequently talks to you...
    in Swedish. You apologize for not knowing Swedish and proceed to order
    in English; she understands but keeps using Swedish. You can make
    complicated requests in English, like asking if food X is hot, and she
    will answer "Nej, sdjd jdkl jjksdlf jklsdjklfjklrjkr". She just isn't
    going to speak English unless you REALLY insist, and then she will be
    very embarassed until she realizes you're not laughing at her English,
    then things go smoothly and she may even ask where you're coming from.
 
    What you can do at a restaurant does not, of course, work in places
    like a bus stop, your average administration or a korvkiosk. It was a
    big problem for the first six months, as there was no way I could
    handle anything but very basic problems in Swedish.
 
    Learning Swedish in Stockholm is rather difficult, because of the large
    amount of immigrants from other parts of Sweden and from other
    countries, who all have their own accent. One of the major problems
    with Swedish is knowing how to pronounce a word you have learnt from a
    book, ad, and so on. You usually record the pronunciation the first
    time you hear it, so depending on whether you heard it first from
    someone from Sm�land, Norrland, Stockholm, Sk�ne, Finland or Italy, you
    will record a different pronunciation. Then you make a sentence with
    all these words you recorded from different people, and people can't
    understand you: for instance, if they hear you say "bra" with an open
    'a', they will expect to hear an open 'a' in "arton" as well, same with
    xh vs sh vs intermediates for 'sj'. Then you have this gender business;
    the first time you hear someone saying "�pplen", you happily record
    that one says "en �ppel"... until someone tells you 1 year later that
    you have been making this mistake for 1 year :-) None of this is
    obvious when you don't know it :-)
 
    But the main problem is not to speak or write understandable Swedish,
    that much is reasonably easy. The problem is to understand what people
    tell you. I was totally unable to understand people from Sm�land for
    about 1 year, no matter how short their sentences were. I started
    avoiding all shops where I knew there were clerks from a southern
    province.
 
    Then one day I found a way to prevent people from running away in bars
    as soon as they realized that I didn't speak Swedish but do speak
    English. I just started the conversation in Swedish, with my very
    limited vocabulary, then made a few mistakes on purpose and switched to
    purposefully incorrect English with an apology. People felt sorry,
    understood what I said and were not intimidated - "I can hear that he
    makes mistakes, great, I don't need to be afraid that he will laugh if
    I speak English!". After 5 minutes, you just switch back to normal
    English little by little - once people have accepted the fact that they
    will use English to talk to you, they aren't afraid any longer.
 
    Eric