Conference turris::scandia

  Right off the bat, folks with VT100 terminals are going to have a 
  problem with this conference.  The Swedish, Norwegian and Danish 
  alphabets contain these letters, in addition to the 26 letters with 
  which English-speakers are familiar:

       � , �  (a ring)

       � , �  (a umlaut)

       � , �  (ae dipthong)

       � , �  (o slash)

       � , �  (o umlaut)

       � , �  (u umlaut)

  These can be 'composed' on the VT 200 series terminal but cannot be 
  read  or composed on the VT100 series.

  This leaves us with the question of how to represent the additional
  characters on VT100 terminals.  One way would be to do this:

       A^o  (a ring)
 
       A"   (a umlaut)

       O/   (o slash)      ...and so forth.   Other suggestions anyone?     
   
  BTW:  The additional letters come at the *end* of the alphabet (a 
        very important point when looking up words in a dictionary or
        names in a telephone book).

  VAX Notes turns these characters into reverse question-marks
  if the terminal is set to /NOEIGHT_BIT.  /EIGHT_BIT is normally
  set for VT200 terminals, but not for Pros and Rainbows.  Be sure
  to SET TERM/EIGHT in that case.
  
--  not_a_blond_viking
  

        SET TERMINAL/FALLBACK will help those of you who have VT100s
        to see these characters as something a little more reasonable.
        
        JimB.

  Re: 1.3
  
  	I have always used /fallback when I log-in on my vt100,
  and VNOTES used to be nice enough to show me almost-meaningfull
  characters.  I am now on my vt102 at home (/fallback) and see
  those parity-error characters (every-other-pixel-set).  Is it
  me or VAX NOTES?
  
  				- Dan

  Folks from the Finnoscandian side of the pond have begun to speak.
  
  And they have made important contributions, not the least of
  which are updates to outdated information and corrections where
  this moderator has misinterpreted (or just plain got it wrong
  :-)).
  
  'hope everybody follows the base note by reading all the replies,
  as they come in.
  
  Neil
  

  re .0:
  
  So we Finns are not welcome to say 'hej' here... well, I wouldn't,
  anyway, because it's not Finnish       :-)
  
        
  Regarding those funny characters in .1, the story is not that
  simple.
  
  First, in many languages (German above all) it is common and
  quite correct to write the Umlauts (which BTW is a German word,
  they're not called Umlats in Scandinavia) using two letters so
  that � -> oe, � -> ue etc. If I'm not mistaken, this could be
  done with Swedish too. However, it is NOT correct to do it in
  Finnish.
  
  And, secondly, at least in Finland, it seems to be more customary
  to use NRCs for the 'Umlauts', rather than 8-bit characters.
  Reason being that a) there are zillions of VT100's (and even
  VT52s) with NRCs and b) DEC multinational 8-bit characters are
  compatible with just about nothing. The seven bit NRCs have been
  used for quite a long time and are used by other manufacturers
  too (even IBM has EBCDIC NRC character sets, 14 different of
  them!).
  
  

  Re: 6:
                                               
  Sorry to seem so naive, but could you explain a bit more about 
  those "NRC" character sets.  How does someone with a VT100 go
  about creating an 'umlaut' with 'em?
  
  Neil 

  Simple, go to your friendly CSS salesman, and by a kit from him
  - you get something like (I think) three or four new keycaps and new
  character matrix roms, and you have a Finnish VT100!! Or Swedish,
  for that matter, they are the same (the Finnish ones must have
  � too).
  
  There is an ISO standard even, I think. The usual assignment
  is as follows (like I said, it's at least industry standard up
  there):
  
  [ = �
  \ = �
  ^ = �
  ] = �
  { = �
  
  etc.
  
  (see e.g. pages 9 and 16 in VT220 Programmer Pocket Guide, these
  character sets still live and are going strong!).

  (Order # EK-VT220-HR-002).
  
  At the time when DEC goofed with the 8-bit sets (a catastrophy
  in Scandinavia, I was already in Germany) I saw somewhere statistics
  on the number NRC modified VT100's in Europe; there were thousands
  of them in Scandinavia, almost none in Central Europe.

  Re: .8:
  
  I see the NRC sets on the same pages of my VT240 Programmer Pocket
  Guide too.  Thanks for sheding some light on this interesting
  subject.
  
  Neil

    This conference contains the following Keywords:
    
    DANE   FINN   NORWEGIAN   SWEDE   VIKING   VINLAND
    
    Thus, to see a listing of all the base notes and replies pertaining 
    to each of these subjects, you issue the command SHOW KEY /FULL.
    
    -the moderator-

  I am traveling to Stockholm to teach a VMS course. What are the
  more interesting spots that should be seen by a first-time visitor
  during a 10-day period? Suggestions are most welcomed. Travel
  is scheduled for week of 5/26/86.

Well, you could watch me run the Stockholm marathon on June 7.
(Not for the faint of heart.)

I'd strongly recommend that you visit

-- Moderna Museet (which has one of the best collections of 20th
   century art in the world).

-- One or two of the 30,000 islands in the Stockholm archipelago
   (Sk�rg�rden.)  There are boats leaving the center of town in
   the early morning, returning in the afternoon.  You can take
   a very nice trip out to the sailing center of Sandhamn.
   Some of the ferry boats are still steam driven, with very
   nice resturants (the specialty is "steam-boat beef").

   If you don't want to spend an entire day, you can take a
   shorter trip (one hour or so) to Vaxholm.  A nice town
   to walk around in.

-- Afternoon coffee at one of the outdoor cafes on the southern
   island (S�der) -- I can't remember the name off hand.  You
   sit about 200 feet above the water on a cliff edge overlooking
   the harbour and downtown.

-- You can get to Finland on a fairly inexpensive night boat.
   The boat price (and the price of a quite good meal) is subsidized
   by selling "tax-free" booze.  Helsinki is another wonderful
   town to walk around.


See you there.

Martin.

    Re. NRC discussion -
    
    If u're communicating with scandinavians, u can simply use what
    most scandinavians with non-NRC VT10x terminal use - braces, brackets,
    backwards slash and the vertical bar ...
    
    [ = � (AE)
    { = � (ae)
    \ = � (OE)
    | = � (oe)
    ] = � (AA or A-circle)
    } = � (aa or a-circle)
    
    A sentence would look like "Hei p} deg" and all scandinavians will
    understand that as "Hei p� deg".
    
    Note the design glitch - capital � is [, i.e. produced without use
    of shift key and lower case � is {, i.e. produced WITH use of shift
    key. It's valid for � and � too ... which is the exact opposite
    of how one would shift to upper-case for all other characters common
    to both scandinavian and english !!!
    
    ~~Naci. (a norwegian/turk).
    
    

    Re: many
    
    Gee .. I see you have problems with NRC terminals! I have been working
    1 1/2 year with the Terminal Fallback Facility TFF (aka EUROTERM).
    
    TFF is a piece of software that allows you to do extended fallback (ie:
    you are no longer forced to use the hard-coded ASCII fallback embedded
    in the terminal driver). TFF provides tables for all Scandianvian
    countries (among other countries). Translation is done at Driver level
    - completely transparent to applications. With TFF you can make your
    NRC VT100 act like an MCS terminal .. it even has <Compose-Character>
    built into <Ctrl-K>. 
    
    For more information about TFF, check-out the notes-file LEROUF::TFF.
    
    Regards,
    
    	Per Hamnqvist,
    	Swede in Valbonne (France),
    	On business-trip in the US,
    		[making TFF part of VAX/VMS V5.0]

    HI! If any one wants info on Huskvarna/Joenkoeping, just let me
    know. I lived there a year. I'd like to practice my Sweden if
    possible.I'm Diana.

    The system manager is planning on taking the Notes pack off the TLE
    cluster and moving it to node TURRIS tonight at 17:00. If all goes
    well, the conference should be back on line on its new node by morning,
    Wednesday, 30 November.

    This conference began when the Enet had access to the AP newswire.
    At that time I was reposting here those news items that had relevance
    to Scandinavian countries or topics. 
    
    Now that the AP newswire is gone, I plan to exploit the USNET
    newsgroup, soc.culture.nordic with a similar purpose in mind -- to
    extract items that I think have some bearing on the topics discussed
    here. 
    
    I certainly intend use judgement in choosing the items to repost and
    invite others who read Group soc.culture.nordic to do the same.
    
    If you have opinions on the practice of reposting soc.culture.nordic
    items in this conference, I'm anxious to hear them. But consider
    commenting to me via Email, so as not to fill up the disk on TURRIS
    with 'votes' and risk the system manager's good will.
    

 [Moved by moderator]
================================================================================
Note 294.20                 Denmark - September, 1943                   20 of 20
CIRCUS::KOLLING "Karen, Sweetie, & Holly; in Calif."  3 lines  19-JUL-1989 14:17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Goodbye.  I have no time to read the soc.culture.nordic messages
    twice everyday, so I'm unsubscribing from SCAND.
    

    Hi,
    
    I like to make point of the fact that fellow collegues in G�teborg
    cannot reach this conference and get the wellknown NOTES error mesages.
    
    This situation is the same for a few weeks now,is it their local
    system or other?
    
    Please send memo with solution or answer to MAIL>GOTA1::BHANSSON.
    
    Thank you.
    Jan.

    Re: .19:
    
    Note 372.6 got through.  
    
    This conference's moderator is not a DECnet expert. Folks who
    experience chronic problems accessing TURRIS might try sending mail to
    Steve Lionel on TLE. He seems to keep a close watch on things.

    The problems with TURRIS continue.  To try and relieve the situation,
    all non work-related Notes conferences, including this one, will be
    moved to another Node - PAGODA.
    
    The move is scheduled to take place 18 January, 1990. 

    When you moved from TURRIS to PAGODA it seems that you lost a few
    of the last notes. What happened?
    
    Mauritz
    

    Re: .22:
    
    I strongly suspect that notes entered between 17 and 24 January 1990
    are indeed gone.  Your moderator did not take any active part in the
    move. If you entered a note or reply you care about during that time
    period, I encourage you to reenter it.

 
                                  - * -

                   I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:      20-Feb-1990 02:11pm EST
                                        From:      RON GLOVER 
                                                   GLOVER.RON 
                                        Dept:      Corp. ER Relations
                                        Tel No:    251-1318

TO:  Notes conference moderators & participants

Subject: Negative references to external businesses, services, etc.
    
    Over the last several months Digital has been contacted by a number of 
    individuals and business entities that were angry about negative 
    comments made about them in our Notesfiles and Conferences.  As the 
    Personnel Policy Manager for Digital I have been the recipient of many 
    of those notes.  I thought I should take the time to post this note to 
    inform employees that it is not appropriate for them to make negative 
    comments or references about any person or business entity in any of 
    Digital's employee interest notesfile or conferences.
    
    There are several reasons why we are establishing this rule. The first
    has to do with fundamental fairness.  It is simply not fair for an
    employee to make a negative comment about a business when we don't
    provide those businesses an opportunity to respond and defend 
    themselves.  This is particularly true given the fact that we have no 
    way of determining whether the comment is honest, fair, or accurate.  
    Clearly Digital has no intention, or desire, to open up its notesfiles 
    to third-party businesses so that they can engage in a debate about 
    whether they provide quality services.  The only logical solution then 
    is to ask our employees to refrain from using the Notesfiles to air 
    grievances they have with individuals, vendors, or organizations.  
    
    In addition to our concerns about fairness, we are concerned about the 
    potential damage that these kinds of comments may cause to third-party 
    businesses.  In that regard, employees should understand that they may 
    be personally liable if the statements they make cause harm to any 
    person or business.  Moreover, there is some possibility Digital may be 
    held liable for such comments as well.  Stated more simply, comments 
    made in a Notesfile or conference are in no way privileged or immune 
    from claims of liable, slander or defamation.
    
    We are asking all of the users of Notesfiles to exercise discretion and 
    judgment in the comments that they make in the system.  We are also 
    asking the moderators to go back and review the notesfiles they 
    moderate and to remove any notes that include derogatory references to 
    third-party businesses.
    
    Please feel free to contact your moderator if you have any questions on
    this subject.  
    
    Ron Glover
    Corporate Personnel Policy Manager

 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

    The moderator of this conference has no knowledge of any notes that
    include derogatory references to third-party businesses. Should you
    find such a note, he'd be obliged if you would bring it to his
    attention.

    From: [email protected] (Einar Indridason)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Re: Name curiousity, and e with an accent
    Date: 2 Feb 91 13:55:37 GMT
    Organization: University of Iceland (RHI)
 
    In article <[email protected]>
    u-lchoqu%[email protected] (Lee Choquette) writes:

   >            ,
   >I'd say Nissen is a Swedish name, with an accent mark over the "e"
 
   >                            o  ..     ..
   >By the way, I know now that a, a, and o are written }, {, and | in this
   >newsgroup so that people in Scandinavia will see them properly, but how
   >               ,
   >does one write e with an accent?  Do languages other than Swedish make
   >                                          ,
   >use of it?  Some Swedish words containing e:
 
    				 '                   ' 
    Yes.  Icelandic does use the e, we also uses the E.
 
    In fact, Iceland uses 10 extra upper case characters and 10 extra lower
    case character.  Those characters are not available in 'standard'
    ascii.  Instead we must use some of the extended characters for our
    'icelandic' characters.  

    Now, you can imagine how we feel when we see some software that looks
    great; it would do anything that you ever needed and then some more.
    But it has one Great BUG.  It MASKS the 8th bit.  Thereby rendering it
    useless for us here in Iceland.  (DBase II, III, IV all consider our
    THorn as the end-of-file, thereby denying a whole lot of personal names
    to be entered correctly :-(
 
    I have constructed a file and a program to show the character matrixes
    for three 'extended-ascii' standards, that covers the icelandic
    character set.  (IBM's codepage 850, IBM's codepage 861, ISO 8859/1)
 
    The pronounciation of the extra 10 characters (now I have folded the 10
    upper case with the 10 lower case characters) differs from the
    pronounciations of the rest of the (standard ascii) icelandic
    characters.
 
    Now I have one wish.  In the future when you write programs, DON'T MASK
    the 8th bit.  I have seen code that goes something like this:

    .......
	letter = getchar();	/* getchar returns 8th bit OK !!! */
	letter = letter & 0x7f;	/* notice this line, it just mask the 8th bit*/
	enter_letter(letter);	/* enter the letter into buffer */
	/* letter is not used elsewhere */
    .......
 
    Now, one asks:  Why did the programmer MASK the 8th bit?  (Is it
    because he is an american and the 8th bit isn't used in US?  Or is it
    because he uses the 8th bit as a flag for something?  In that case, why
    didn't he allocate an int or char for the flag?)
 
    I bet you folks there don't know how much money goes every year here in
    Iceland to 'icelandicify' those foreign software packages that MASK's
    the 8th bit.  I don't know how much it is, but it is a whole lot.  
 
 
    GGGGRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
 
--
Internet:    [email protected]        |   "Just give me my command line and drag
UUCP:    ..!mcsun!isgate!rhi!einari  |   the GUIs to the waste basket!!!!"
 
Surgeon Generals warning:  Masking the 8th bit can seriously damage your brain!!

    
    I have posted the following simply as a precaution; so far, this
    conference has not been targeted as a repository for any of the
    unacceptable behavior described in the memo.
    
From:   Ron Glover, Corporate Personnel Policy Manager
Subj:	A Message to Employee Interest Notes File Users 


                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:     29-Jan-1992 11:49am EST
                                        From:     RON GLOVER
                                                  GLOVER.RON
                                        Dept:     Corporate Employee Relations
                                        Tel No:   508-493-9569

TO: Conference Moderators

Subject: A Message to Employee Interest Notes File Users                        



By way of introduction, I am the Corporate Personnel Policy Manager.  
Part of my responsibility includes providing interpretation of Digital's 
Personnel Policy, including the Personnel Policy 6.54.   I would greatly 
appreciate your assistance in posting the attached memo from John Sims in 
the Notes files you moderate, and as many other Employee Interest Notes 
Files as possible.  Please give me a call if you have any questions.




                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:     30-Jan-1992 
                                        From:     John Sims
                                                  SIMS.JOHN AT A1 at CORA @ CORE
                                        Dept:     Strategic Resources
                                        Tel No:   223-7243

TO:  Employee Interest Notes File Participants 


Subject:  A message to employee interest notes file users

           A MESSAGE TO EMPLOYEE INTEREST NOTES FILE USERS
    
    
    Over the last few months I have received a number of complaints 
    from employees, and individuals outside of the company about 
    material communicated in electronic mail systems and posted in 
    various employee interest notes files.  After reading some of this 
    material it is clear that a reminder about appropriate comment and 
    behavior in these systems is necessary.
    
    First, and most critically; the electronic mail systems and notes 
    files are company facilities subject to normal workplace rules of 
    conduct.   As such, the same rules that govern conduct and comment 
    in any other Digital workplace apply with equal weight in these 
    systems.  Stated simply, if you wouldn't say something in a 
    Digital business meeting, you shouldn't say it in electronic mail 
    or notes. PERIOD.  
    
    Statements that attribute improper, illegal or immoral motives or 
    actions to others; statements that cast aspersions on the 
    character or integrity of others or that amount to libel or 
    slander are not permitted. PERIOD.  In this regard, it does not 
    matter whether the individuals subject to the comment are elected 
    public officials or directors of organizations disfavored by the 
    author.   There is no "Public Figure" exception in these systems.
    
    Comments of a sexual nature are not acceptable whether they are 
    about the author or directed at others.  Similarly, comments that 
    degrade, devalue or discriminate against others are also 
    prohibited.
    
    Neither the notes conferences nor electronic mail should be used 
    to solicit other employees.  This prohibition covers efforts to 
    solicit employees for personal or political gain, to sell or 
    market goods or services (except authorized marketplace or 
    discount conferences) and efforts to solicit employees to take 
    action, sign petitions or support particular causes or candidates.
    
    Finally, employees should remember that it is never appropriate to 
    spend working time in employee interest notes for non-work 
    purposes.  Personal or entertainment activities in these notes 
    files should be limited to assigned break times, lunch time and 
    before or after business hours.  
    
    Employee interest notes files and conferences provide an 
    electronic forum to share ideas and opinions about matters of 
    common interest.  In supporting these conferences, the company 
    understood that there would be occasions where employees would 
    disagree on issues being discussed, but we believed and continue 
    to believe it is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.  
    Personnel Policy 6.54, Proper Use of Digital Computers, Systems 
    and Networks provides further information about appropriate 
    conduct and comment in these systems.  Employees who fail to meet 
    these expectations, or who use company computer systems in ways 
    that are contrary to the letter or spirit of that policy are 
    subject to Corrective Action and Discipline up to and including 
    the termination of their employment.
    
    The moderators of these conferences, along with your system 
    managers, personnel representatives and the Personnel Policy 
    Manager are all available to answer any question you might have 
    about appropriate use of these systems.
    
    Please feel free to forward this memo to other Digital notes 
    files and conferences.

Distribution:  Selected conference moderators
        [Original list deleted]

    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    From: [email protected] (Per-Erik Martin)
    Subject: Re: Alphabet
    Sender: [email protected]
    Organization: Student
    Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 22:48:42 GMT
 

 ...
 
    In Swedish we have three letters which very often are mistakenly
    assumed to have diacritical marks by foreigners, but in fact they have
    not. They appear last in our alphabet, in the order they were
    introduced:
 
    Aa (an 'a' with a small circle above) was introduced in the 15'th
    century and has been a separate letter since then. I think it started
    off as a double 'a' where the second letter eventually shrunk was
    placed on top off the first one. The little circle is never used on any
    other letter, and has no special name (except the obvious "ring" or
    "cirkel" (circle)); it's simply part of the whole letter. The letter
    was introduced in a spelling reform in Norwegian in 1917 and in  Danish
    in 1948, to replace the old 'aa' (according to "Bra B|ckers Lexikon").
 
    A" (an 'A' with two dots above, often transcribed as 'ae') started off
    as it's transcription, where the second 'e' shrunk and was placed on
    top off the 'a'. It appeared in the 16th century in Swedish. Again it's
    a separate letter in the alphabet (and it's not an "umlaut" in the
    sense it's used in German). You will also find it in Finnish and
    Estonian. In Norway and Denmark they use a ligature, 'ae'.
 
    O" (an 'O' with two dots, often transcribed as 'oe') also started off
    as two letters, the same way as 'ae', and appeared about the same time.
    You also find it in German, Finnish, Hungarian and Turkish. In
    Norwegian and Danish they write it with a slash (/) across the 'o'.
 
    I have a xerox of an old book printed in 1611 where they still write a"
    and o" as a/o with very small e's on the top. In Swedish handwriting
    you often see something that looks like a tilde (~) instead of the two
    dots. As for the names of the dots on A" and O", it's the same as for
    the circel in Aa, they don't have any special name except the obvious,
    they're just dots.
 
    It's hard to describe the pronounciation of these letters in words, but
    I'll give it a try anyway:
 
    Aa: If it's long it's similar to the vowel in English 'saw'.
        If it's short it's like in Eng. 'long'. ;-)
 
    A": Long: I give up on this one. Someone suggested something like in
          French 'chaise'. (I don't speak French so I wouldn't know.)
        Short: Something like Eng. 'carry' maybe?
 
    O": Long: Something like in Eng. "bird".
        Short: Don't know. Try pronouncing "bird" with a very short vowel if
           you can... ;)
 
 
    (PS. My guess is that the Finnish and Estonian A" and O" came from
    Swedish, but I don't know about the other languages where they are
    used. Their similar appearances may be coincidental in some cases, even
    if they are used for similar sounds. DS)
 
--
 |\/|\/|\/| Per-Erik Martin,
 |  |  |/\| Department of Computer Systems, Uppsala University,
 |/\|  |  | Email: [email protected]

My understanding is that the � (a") in German also started as an ae then a with
small e on top etc.

Linguistically the swedish one is probably an "umlaut" also, meaning
a shift in sound. (for whatever reasons).

Note that in most German dictionaries I've seen words with � (a") are
put in with the ae, not the plain a.

I think that the end result is different but the start probably the same
for Swedish as German, ie, there was a sound shift for some reason that was
notated as "ae".  This "ae" was changed to the � of today and the modern
difference (swedish � considered new letter at end, German � considered
"ae" more or less ALphabetically but often also considered a "separate"
letter sometimes) between how they are considered is just that, a modern
difference.

Chad
who_remembers_trivia_from_his_German_minor_studies_but_forgets_the_important_:-)

    The FAQ for the nordic newsgroup is in note 245.