Conference turris::cooks

Firstly, let me say right off that I'm no expert but a couple of things did
seem logically evident.
>hot food tastes better when it's hot
Hot food can also land you in court. Dunkin D has been sued for fillings in 
thier pies that burned a patons mouth and if memory serves me correctly they
were recently sued again because someone splilled coffee that had just been
purchased, and burned themselves.
> and lukewarm food
>tends to grow micro-organisms that can cause food poisoning. (This can happen
>in the two hours that food commonly sits on cafeteria steam tables.)
This is pretty much answered by the following line that reads.
>  In some public cafs, they keep the food warmer by keeping the food trays
>covered when they are not actually serving from them. This would not work
>here because the volume of traffic is too high. The labor of continually re-
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I tend to think nothing really sits for two hours, the volume of patrons will
be such that the food will be purchased and new food brought out. The food in
the kitchen is "most likely" either being cooked at the time the other food is
being sold, or, it is stored in closed and heated containers.

I think you have some valid points in as much as the temp of the food has been
greatly reduced by the time you stand in line to pay for it, gathered utensils
and actually sit down to eat, but I see no way to logically remidy the problem
other than to nuke it a little, which is what I have done on occation in the 
MRO cafe.
In summation, I dont think I have ever worried about food poisioning from any
of Digitals cafe's and I've been eating in them for the past 18 years. The
quality is another subject, but I will add, it has gotten very much better.
The food caterer will do anything to keep themselves out of court, so really
hot food is not something your likely to find there, in the same vane, I doubt
that you'll ever get food poisoning either. 

"were recently sued again because someone splilled coffee that had just been
purchased, and burned themselves."
    
    An elderly woman put a cup of McDonald's cofee between her legs
    while driving, opened it and burned herself.  She was awarded a huge
    pile of bucks but an appeals judge reduced it.
    
    ed

    Bob...
    
>  I don't think the people who run the caf are smart enough to figure out a
>way to keep the food hotter, so I don't think complaining to them again would
>do any good (it didn't when I complained a year ago).
    
    I think it's offensive to suggest that people that work in the
    cafeteria industy aren't "smart" enough to listen to a complaint.  A
    manager of any type of business should be interested in hearing
    suggestions from cusomers.
    
    First question, who are you complaining to?  An employee or the kitchen
    manager?  I would certainly bring it to the attention of the kitchen
    manager.  If that doesn't get you anywhere, find out what company
    services your cafeteria and write the corporation a letter.
    
    Ways to keep food hot in the steam tables is to make sure the hot water
    under the trays are hot enough.  Also stirring the food that are on the 
    steam tables to move things that are on the top to the bottom (for
    things with a liquid such as stews).  Some have covers that open 1/2
    way, so 1/2 can be open and have closed.  I doubt they would use that
    though since they want the customers to be able to see the food they're
    ordering.
    
    Also, I wouldn't be too concerned about micro-organisms reproducing at
    rapid rates just due to sitting in the steam tables.  The TDZ
    (Temperature Danger Zone) is from 40 degrees - 140 degrees, so as long
    as it's keep above 140 degrees while on the steam table it should be 
    considered safe to eat.  Also, food(protien) shouldn't be in the TDZ for 
    more than a total of 3 hours.  Again note, it's very unlikely that the 
    same piece of food is sitting on the steam table over 3 hours at a
    temperature under 140 degrees.
    
    If you really have a compaint with the cafeteria you should go through
    the cafeteria manager.  If she/he isn't responsive to your complaint
    then you should write to the company that has the contract for your 
    cafeteria (you can get that information from the cafeteria manager).  I
    don't know what role Digital would have in this if any since they
    outsource the cafeteria.  You might want to find out who the Digital
    person is that deals with that contract.
    
    Debbi

    re. 3
    
    Here here!
    
    MJ

Although it wasn't heat-related, I did in fact get food poisoning once from the 
SNO caf'. They'd made a lentil&beans stew ... you know how you have to soak the 
bean overnight before cooking - well, they'd put them in to soak on the FRIDAY 
night for a MONDAY meal, and the beans fermented or went some other way off. 
About a dozen of us were caught with a rather nasty case of stomachs trying to 
crawl outside of our bodies to escape the meal. :(

I wrote a formal letter of compalint to the Facilities manager, as did a few of 
the other folks. The management of the catering company came in and went 
through the cafeteria like a dose of salts. Supposedly whatever it was was 
rectified...

We received a formal apology from the Facilities manager. I would have like a 
free meal to compenssate for the one I threw up.

~Sheridan~
:^)

>hot food tastes better when it's hot
>>Hot food can also land you in court. Dunkin D has been sued for fillings in 
>>thier pies that burned a patons mouth

  This is a special case. When a filled pastry (which McDonald,s pies are) is
heated in a microwave (which I assume McDonald's pies are), the filling gets
much hotter than the crust, so someone eating it is fooled into thinking the
filling is less hot than it is. I have read cautions about this in several
cooking-related newsletters.
  I don't think it's possible for food to get dangerously hot on a steam table.
Of course, if they take it from a 300 F oven to the steam table and serve it
two minutes later, that is another matter.

>I tend to think nothing really sits for two hours, the volume of patrons will
>be such that the food will be purchased and new food brought out.
  I didn't say this in the base note, but I also think the food is being held,
before being put on the steam table, in a space that is not really hot. This
is based on several cases of getting lukewarm food that had just been put on
the steam table.

>and actually sit down to eat, but I see no way to logically remidy the problem
>other than to nuke it a little
  I do this occasionally, but it's not really a solution because there is usu-
ally a line at the microwave.
  I'm not really concerned about serious food poisoning. I'm more concerned
about minor cases, which I have once or twice a month. Some are the result of
my making stupid mistakes with my own food. If I had a serious case of food
poisoning and thought it was due to cafeteria food, I would definitely com-
plain to the "authorities".

>>  I don't think the people who run the caf are smart enough to figure out a
>>way to keep the food hotter, so I don't think complaining to them again would
>>do any good (it didn't when I complained a year ago).
    
>   I think it's offensive to suggest that people that work in the
>   cafeteria industy aren't "smart" enough to listen to a complaint. 

  I didn't say this quite right. What I meant is that keeping food really hot
on a steam table is an "engineering" problem and I don't think most cafeteria
managers have enough expertise in engineering to understand the engineering
solutions I have in mind. I do think caf managers in general are receptive to
complaints (as this one is), if made diplomatically.
  What actually happened was that I complained to the person in Facilities who
is responsible for the caf and she forwarded my complaint to the caf manager.
The hot food did become a little hotter for a short time and then it went back
to the way it was.
  My purpose of posting this note was to see if there is a specific fix I can
recommend to the caf manager, instead of simply saying "please do something
to keep the hot food hotter".

>    manager.  If that doesn't get you anywhere, find out what company
>    services your cafeteria and write the corporation a letter.

  This is a Tobin's caf. 
    
>    things with a liquid such as stews).  Some have covers that open 1/2
>    way, so 1/2 can be open and have closed.  I doubt they would use that
>    though since they want the customers to be able to see the food they're
>    ordering.
  That's right, keeping the trays half covered doesn't work well for this
reason. It's more workable at a buffet.
    
>    (Temperature Danger Zone) is from 40 degrees - 140 degrees, so as long
>   as it's keep above 140 degrees while on the steam table it should be 
>   considered safe to eat.
  I think some of the food I have bought in the caf was below 140 F when it
was served, but I can't prove it. This is how one can prove it:

1. Let some solid food sit on the steam tray for 15 minutes or more, long
enough for it to stabilize in case it was put there from a hot oven.
2. Put a surface thermometer on top of it, let it stand another 10 minutes
or so, and read the temp.

  I figured this out myself and didn't read it in a book on caf management.

>   Also, food(protien) shouldn't be in the TDZ for 
>   more than a total of 3 hours.  Again note, it's very unlikely that the 

  Most of the books and articles I have read on this say two hours. I agree,
it's unlikely that food would sit on the steam table at a Digital caf for
over two hours.
  Thanks to all for the suggestions re how to deal with this. 

The manager of the ZKO cafeteria usually has a thermometer in his shirt
pocket. I recall seeing him check something on the line.

    Re: .6 Last I knew (several years ago), McDonald's pies were deep-fried
    and not microwaved. This may have changed since I worked there in
    college.
    
    Debbie
    

    
    The Cafeteria at my site (MRO2) puts ready made sandwiches out early
    ie: 9:30 or so.  The fillings include tuna salad, etc.  They are just
    put on a counter with no ice, etc.   I figure they are out for hours
    with no refrigeration.  Perfect breeding ground if you ask my opinion.
    

>    The Cafeteria at my site (MRO2) puts ready made sandwiches out early
>    ie: 9:30 or so.

  I assume these sandwiches are wrapped. I suggest you complain about this.
Off-hand I can think of two alternatives: put them on ice or use a glass-front
refrigerated cabinet. The former may or may not require new equipment, and the
latter probably would.
  I would not suggest they make the sandwiches later in the morning, because
they are probably too busy at that time.

>    Re: .6 Last I knew (several years ago), McDonald's pies were deep-fried
>    and not microwaved. This may have changed since I worked there in
>    college.
    
  I am assuming that they issued the warning because the pies are served hot.
There are two ways they can make the pies hot: store them under infrared
lights (which I think I saw a long time ago at a fast food place) or microwave
them. As a customer, I would prefer that they microwave them, because they
might lose some quality if kept hot for half a day or more.
  I didn't mean to consider if they were baked (the first time) in a microwave;
if they were, it would be impossible to properly bake the crust.

    Bob,
      Again, last I knew, the pies were kept hot under heat lamps. The
    holding time for pies was I believe 30 or 45 min. After that you threw them
    out. They stayed pretty hot under the lights (although not hot enough
    to burn) for the 30 or 45 min.
    
    And yes, we REALLy did throw them out after the time limit expired.
    
    Debbie