Conference turris::cooks

    Monosodium glutamate (MSG) is a complex form of sodium (salt).  As with
    any salt, one should monitor intake carefully.  MSG is deceptive
    because the salt flavor is less pronounced, so it is easy to eat too
    much.
    
    Some people have an adverse reaction to MSG including sweating and
    palpatations.  I certainly would not give it to young children.
    
    MSG's value is that it enhances the flavor of food.  Actually, a small
    amount of salt does the same thing.  I guess MSG is considered to be
    more effective, or maybe people use more because it doesn't taste
    salty.  I've never used it.
    
    Laura
    

    I have read that "you can't taste salt and bitter at the same time
    so a pinch of salt disables the bitter taste receptors and that's how
    it enhances flavor" for example, a pinch of salt on the coffee grounds
    can make the coffee less bitter.
    
    ed

    If I have a Chinese meal (usually they have a lot of MSG), the next
    morning I feel like I have a hangover - very dehydrated and headachey.
    
    I've also been told that the MSG is reason for feeling hungry again an
    hour after eating a chinese meal.
    
    Seems like pretty nasty stuff to me - I wish they would leave it out.

    Hmmm...yes Chinese food is usually full of the stuff...I don't use it
    that often but it can be useful at times...I like Thai food as they
    don't use salt,just Fish sauce...the stuff stinks but it's really good.

	Also note that MSG is added to lots of food products.  Some
	news program did a report on MSG and said that you also have
	to be careful if "natural flavorings" is listed on the
	ingrediants list as that often means MSG.

�I like Thai food as they
�    don't use salt,just Fish sauce.
    
    Salt is one of the main ingredients in fish sauce.  

    Ooooops,I have a few Thai cookery books and in one it mentioned how the
    stuff was made...didn't mention the addition of salt,or did it?
    
    I thought they just put fish into a big stone pot and let it ferment!
    
    Hmmmm.
    
    Steve.

    I believe fish sauce is made much the same way that soy sauce is made.

Re MSG, I read somewhere (Joy of Cooking?) that the main reason it's
used is to impart a "protein" flavor to dishes.

I agree that, considering its effect on many people (including myself),
it's best to avoid it in home cooking. When I need a "protein" flavor
in a dish, I use real protein -- in the form of a reduced sauce
(obviously not as convenient as using MSG). And, of course, when I need
a salty flavor, I use salt.

    If anyone (British) watched Keith Floyds recent series in a spain he
    uses something called (i beleive) a picada which consists of
    breadcrumbs and other herbs and spices to thicken and flavour
    sauces...tried it and its very good!

RE: .1

Monosodium glutamate (MSG) is the monosodium salt of glutamic acid, one of the 
30 or so amino acids that make up proteins.  Glutamic acid has two carboxyl 
(-COOH) groups.  In monosodium glutamate, one of these groups is bonded 
ionically to a sodium (Na+) ion.  People with specific medical problems (high 
blood pressure, various lung diseases, kidney problems) have to be careful 
about how much sodium ion they put in their systems.  Healthy people probably 
do themselves more harm worrying about sodium intake than the sodium would 
cause.  Unless you're in one of the risk groups, don't worry about it.

MSG is a natural product of the fermentation and oxidation process used to 
produce things such a soy sauce, fish sauce, miso, oriental bean sauce, hoisin 
sauce, marmite, vegemite, and the like.  It occurs in small amounts in all of 
these foods, and it can be extracted and crystallized, in which form it's sold 
under brand names such as "Accent".  On the palate, MSG enhances the "meaty" or 
"savory" flavor of foods.  It's used a lot in commercial sauces and broths for 
this purpose, and also over-used for this effect in many Chinese restaurants. 
It's certainly not necessary in any Chinese recipes, and the best chefs I've 
talked to and cookbooks that I've read say not to bother using it.  The 
good flavor that soy sauce, fish sauce, and bean sauce add to oriental dishes 
is due in part to the natural MSG that they contain.

Eating too much MSG can cause dryness of the throat, headaches, sweating, and 
heart palpitations.  People vary in their sensitivity to MSG, but I've never 
encountered anybody who had problems with the small amounts naturally present 
in soy sauce or miso, only with the much larger amounts that occur when MSG is 
added specifically as a seasoning in its own right.

Note also that MSG cannot ever be completely avoided.  When you digest protein, 
MSG inevitably will be formed in your gut when the glutamic acid released by 
digestion combines with sodium ions.

--PSW

    
    It comes in certain foods too like tomatoes... 
    
    Re: a few back - yes, you must be careful because products
    do try to hide it under the guise of "Natural Flavor"..
    Hopefully the new label law will change this..
    I try to avoid it since it makes me feel lethargic..
    My mother-in-law will get migraines..
    
    

> My mother-in-law will get migraines..

	Interesting.  I get the same thing with artificial sweetners,
	but that's another topic ....

	MY mother-in-law *gives* me migraines.

	ScottR

    RE: MSG
    
    My sister-in-law gives me migraines!  No really, my sister-in-law read
    a article that stated MSG can activate cancer cells in the body.  I
    make sure I always look at the labels to make sure MSG is not in the
    food I buy.
    

>  my sister-in-law read
>  a article that stated MSG can activate cancer cells in the body.

  This has the makings of a good urban legend ("a friend of my brother-
  in-law's cousin swears that she saw it ..."). Can you find a pointer
  to this article? I hadn't heard this, and like to check these things
  out for myself.

  Thanks very much for any info.

RE: .15

That (MSG activating cancer cells in the body) can't possibly be right--once 
it's absorbed, MSG is merely glutamic acid, one of the 30 amino acids present 
in all protein.  Unless we're talking about one of those "studies" where they 
feed enormous quantities of some substance to tumor-prone white rats.

--PSW

re. -a few

I heard that artificial sweetners break down in the digestion into 
MSG.  Maybe that's why they make you go funny.

Sheridan
:^)

Hmmm, the three sweeteners I'm aware of are saccharine, aspartame, and
long-chain alcohols like sorbitol and mannitol. I wasn't aware of any
natural metabolic processes which would turn any of these into glutamic
acid (the amino acid of which MSG is the sodium salt), but perhaps PSW
can shed some light on this.

Aspartame breaks down into aspartic acid, which eventually is metabolized into 
glutamic acid.  But so are a whole bunch of other amino acids and related 
compounds.  However, all this occurs in the liver, not as part of digestion.

I don't think that the funny reactions some people have to aspartame are 
related to MSG.

--PSW

    And Sucralose? (now marketed in Canada as "Splenda")
    
    Monica

Never heard of it.  "Sucralose" is not its official IUPAC chemical name, so 
it's impossible to tell what its structure might be.

--PSW

>"Sucralose" is not its official IUPAC chemical name, so 
>it's impossible to tell what its structure might be.
    
    If, however, they're playing by the rules, then the "ose" at the
    end of the name indicates that it is, in fact, some variety of
    sugar.
    					andrew

    Yes, I've seen sucralose in health food stores in the Boston area.  I
    don't remember exactly what I read, but I believe it's dried
    unprocessed sugar cane juice or something.  It's still sugar, it's
    still mostly sucrose, I believe the supposed advantage is either taste
    or "naturalness" (maybe organic?).
    
    D!

I found out a bit more about the pharmacology of MSG from the sci.bio newsgroup 
on the Internet.

The amino acids aspartamine and glutamine have fairly profound effects on the 
nervous system.  For this reason, the concentration of thse particular amino 
acids in the general blood circulation is very carefully regulated by the body. 
Aspartamine and glutamine of course are two of the 22 or so amino acid building 
blocks that form all proteins and so they are very widespread in all 
protein-containing foods.  The protein digestion that yields aspartamine and 
glutamine as free amino acids occurs in the small intestine.  The intestinal 
mucosal cells that absorb the free amino acids from the gut do not release 
aspartamine and glutamine into the bloodstream in free form.  Hence, these 
amino acids, when present as part of proteins, do not have any neurological 
effects.

However, the situation is different when aspartamine is ingested in the form of 
aspartame (NutraSweet) or glutamine is ingested in the form of MSG.  MSG is 
already the salt of the free amino acid, and aspartame readily breaks down in 
the stomach to yield free aspartamine.  Both free amino acids are readily 
absorbed by the stomach lining, which, unlike the intestinal lining, merely 
dumps the free amino acids into the hepatic portal veins.  The free amino acids 
thus travel through the hepatic portal system to the liver, where they are 
absorbed and metabolized.  The hepatic portal circulation passes through the 
liver before it joins up with the general circulatory system, so normally there 
isn't a problem.  But, if you either ingest very large amounts of MSG or 
aspartame (thereby temporarily swamping the liver's ability to deal with it), 
or you are an individual whose liver either has depressed or faulty aspartamine 
or glutamine metabolism, it's possible to get elevated levels of these amino 
acids in the bloodstream.  The neurological effects of excess glutamine in the 
blood are "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome".  Some individuals have a similar 
sensitivity to aspartic acid in the form of aspartame.

--PSW

I wasn't so far off base with the Nutrasweet Thingy after all!

Sheridan
:^)

No, you weren't, but without any pointers to further info, there was no
way to tell the difference between your info and any random urban
legend. I'm grateful to PSW for following up on this. The mechanism was
far from obvious.

    What exactly constitutes the "Chinese Meal Syndrome"?  I mean, there's
    the legendary "hungry an hour later" and "groggy/headache" but I'd like
    to know in more specific detail what the possible physiological effects
    of high levels of aspartamine and glutamine are, if you know.
    
    Thanks,
    Diana

RE: .26

You were unbelievably far off.  There's a big difference between "activating 
cancer cells in the body" (whatever that means) and having temporary effects on 
the central nervous system.


RE: .28

"Chinese Restaurant Syndrome" is any one or a combination of the following 
reactions to MSG:  dryness of the throat, hotness, flushing of the skin, 
headaches, heart palpitations, dizziness, ringing in the ears.

I don't know what the symptoms of hypersensitivity to aspartamine are, but I'd 
expect similar sorts of things.

--PSW

> "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome" is any one or a combination of the following 
> reactions to MSG:  dryness of the throat, hotness, flushing of the skin, 
> headaches, heart palpitations, dizziness, ringing in the ears.

	Ah, I'm glad someone finally explained it.  I always thought
	CRS was a case of the runs!  But I think that's related to
	drinking the tea (probably a reaction to the caffine for those
	of us who are caffine free :-)?

    Gee, and I always thought CRS was something my mother had. :-)
    
    Lori B.

    rep-1
    
    	Thanx Lori....I fell outta my chair!!!!!   HHHHHAHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
    
    -VT

    I have been having trouble eating in lots of restaurants because of the
    MSG.  Also watch out for the product "Accent" which it all MSG.  My
    doctor told me that MSG can take several hours to go thru the body.  I
    can tell after taking a few bites if food has it.  I immediately have
    heart palipatations and the creeping crud.  It isn't suppose to be
    dangerous but the headaches can be bad.  Does anyone know if that is
    what they put on salad bars to keep the stuff fresh?  I know lots of
    people who can't eat off salad bars.  I also heard that taking Vitamin
    B 12 helps.  Anyone hear of this?
    
    regards,
    
    Teri

�                       -< It's safer to cook yourself. >-
    
    There is a small percentage of the population who are allegic to MSG. 
    There are also some who are allergic to asparatame (Nutrasweet),
    sulfites, strawberries, milk, etc.  For those folks this may be true.
    
�Does anyone know if that is
�    what they put on salad bars to keep the stuff fresh?  I know lots of
�    people who can't eat off salad bars.  
    
    These are usually sulfite containing compounds.  These same people
    probably can't drink some commerical wines either.

What is 'creeping crud' ??

~Sheridan~
:^)

    -1

    		DYSENTARY  (sp?)

    RE: .36
    
    I don't think so.  I think "creeping crud" refers to an allergic
    reaction in the form of a warm red rash that starts out in one place
    and then gradually spreads over more and more of the skin.
    
    --PSW

    sorry my remark wasn't clear.  I was trying to avoid being graphic. 
    The creeping crud is diarrea (sp?) Sorry I don't know how to spell it,
    I really don't use the word much in my business letters.
    
    Does anyone know if a reaction to msg can be serious.  My doctor said
    no that it just takes several hours to get through your system.  He
    told me to take Benedryl for symptoms.  
    
    I have heard of people being alergic to sulfites.  Thank goodness I
    don't have any problems with wine.  I am curious to know what foods
    contain sulfites also what preservatives contain sulfites.  All I can
    figure is that restaurants must really load it on because I use chicken
    boullion cubes which has some msg in it in my cooking at home and that
    doesn't bother me.  I have also seen it listed on canned soup labels
    and I can eat those as well.  I assume that restaurants dump this on
    food so that you can't tell this was leftover from the day before.  The
    taste reminds me of some kind of super salt.
    
    TB

    RE: .38
    
    Yes, some restaurants really load up their food with MSG.
    
    --PSW

	I don't think I'm allergic to MSG but I am allergic to certain
	artificial colours and some other substances. I have to be careful
	with some brightly coloured dishes although if I don't eat too much
	of the sauces (or too often) I can get away with it. However a long
	term build up or short term overdose does lead to hyperventilation,
	ashthma and serious breathing problems. Not lethal but very stressful
	and dam***d uncomfortable.

�    I have heard of people being alergic to sulfites.  Thank goodness I
�    don't have any problems with wine.  I am curious to know what foods
�    contain sulfites also what preservatives contain sulfites.  All I can
�    figure is that restaurants must really load it on because I use chicken
�    boullion cubes which has some msg in it in my cooking at home and that
�    doesn't bother me.  
    
    Sulfites and MSG are two totally different materials.  MSG is a flavor
    enhancer.  Sulfites are preservatives.  I believe the common form of
    sulfite is sodium metabisulfite.  Sulfites are found in wine (home wine
    makers uses sulfite in the form of camden tablets, commercial wines
    will have a warning on the lable -- contains sulfites), cider/fruit
    juice (read the lable), and salad bars (although they may have been
    outlawed or at least will have warnings posted).

    RE: .41
    
    Sulfites are used in varying quantities in a wide variety of commercial
    and processed foods (including nearly all commercially-baked bread in
    the US) as a preservative and antioxidant.  They're also used in quite
    large quantities by fast food restuarants to prevent cut potatoes from
    going brown before they're fried into french fries, and in many
    restaurants on salad bars to keep the food looking fresh.
    
    As yet, US law only requires warnings about sulfites on alcoholic
    beverages.
    
    --PSW

    Thanks for the great info!  Do you know of a list of foods that are
    typically treated with sulfites?  It would really help to know what
    foods to avoid when eating out.  Also, I have heard of a type of litmis
    like paper strips that you can use to test if the food contains
    sulfites.  Has anyone heard of this?  It would be wonderful to just
    "test" the food before eating it.  Wouldn't it blow the waiter's mind
    if you returned the food for being "sulfite infested".  I would love it
    if all of us started returning food -- maybe then they would come up
    with a better way to preserve food that is healthier.  There seems to
    be many people with this type of food intolerance I wonder how long it
    will take them to clean up their act.
    
    TB

    RE: .43
    
    Do you object to corned beef?  To pickles?  To soy sauce?  To cheese?
    Would you return yogurt or sour cream to the restaurant kitchen for
    being "bacteria infested" (which it is)?  All of these are examples of
    foods that have been specially processed to preserve them and extend their
    shelf-life.  I don't see where adding sodium metabisulfite for this purpose
    is any worse than adding sodium chloride, acetic acid, potassium
    nitrite, Penicillium camemberti, or lactobacillus to food to achieve a
    preservative effect.
    
    Actually, there are very few people who react to any appreciable extent
    to sulfites, and if you're not one of the unlucky few, it doesn't
    matter.  I think this attitude that only "natural" food is "healthy"
    can and has been taken way too far.
    
    --PSW (who happens to be mildly allergic to sulfites)
                                                         
    

�There seems to
�    be many people with this type of food intolerance I wonder how long it
�    will take them to clean up their act.
    
    When you look at the entire population, those many people become a very
    small percentage.  "They" will "clean up their act" when and if it
    becomes a significant problem and/or there is a cost effective
    substitute.
    
    I agree with PSW.  If we are going to ban something like sulfites, we
    should also ban all cow's milk products because a portion of the
    population is lactose intolerant.  For that matter, I have hay fever,
    so I vote we eradicate all pollen producing plantlife.

    Well, there is some middle ground between banning something and
    allowing it to be used without warning anywhere; whether it's worth it
    to investigate alternatives depends on the costs of not doing anything
    vs. taking action. If people are likely to drop dead by ingesting
    something that contains substance X, there's a little more incentive
    for liability-spooked (or, for the less cynical, good-hearted)
    companies to provide some warning that the product contains that
    substance, and there's a lot more incentive for consumers to be aware
    of what they're getting (thus, possibly, applying dollar-pressure back
    on the companies).
    
    When the substance doesn't generally cause permanent damage, there's
    much less incentive. However, if enough consumers who get zapped by
    sulfites where they didn't expect them were to write to the companies
    involved and state that they weren't going to risk buying their
    products anymore unless they began labelling - well, change _has_ been
    known to happen.
    
    And I'm sure that for those who are very sensitive to often-unannounced
    substances, it would be very nice indeed to have some kind of
    litmus-test gadget; alas, I doubt that most of the substances mentioned
    are that easy to detect... [But if they are, there may be an
    entrepreneurial opportunity here for some budding chemist!]
    
    -b

    
    I can just see restaurants seating their customers ath their table,
    handing out the menus, asking if anyone would like a drink, and then
    handing out the litmus papers to have you check out the various
    	chemicals you may be exposed to that are used in their kitchens!

    I was just being facetious!!!! You guys really need to lighten up.  I
    am only concerned about excessive amounts used.  
    
    TB

    Just found this note on MSG - thought I'd add my two cents if anyone
    is still reading this note..

    1) MSG poisoning may affect only a small percentage of the population,
       but let me tell you it causes a very SERIOUS TOXIC reaction for some 
       of us. 

    2) No need to ban it - but the FDA should require that products 
       containing it be labeled as such. 

    I've been struggling to avoid MSG for about 16 years now - this has
    become more difficult the past 7 years. It seems that more and more 
    products contain MSG. 

    I personally prepare most of the foods I eat now - and I also do not 
    ingest artificial sweeteners. It does get tiring though, to constantly
    explain to people why I must refuse their offers of food...
    
    There is a non-profit organization, called NOMSG, that is trying to 
    make HONEST labeling of MSG ingredients a law - so that those of us
    who have toxic reactions to it can safely avoid it. If anyone is 
    interested in their address, send me mail at WROSS2::CROW_Do.
    
    Dora
    
    

        My son is terribly allergic to MSG.  His symptoms are a bit stranger
    than those previously listed.  He is even more allergic to caffeine. 
    Of course caffeine is found in all sorts of places, particularly
    chocolate.  When he was in first grade we would have these periods that
    would last three days or more where he would become intolerable, and I
    don't just mean the usual 7 year old stuff, I mean beyond human
    capacity to tolerate him.  

    We finally tracked it down to caffeine, and a lesser extent, MSG.  His
    symptoms were; unable to concentrate on anything, obnoxious, mean,
    extreme tantrums for no apparent reason, unable to sleep for 48 hours
    or more, complaints of "flashing lights" when he closed his eyes,
    dizzy, and a host of other things.  

    No one else in the family seems to have the same allergy problem.  He
    has learned to deal with it and is very careful about what he eats. 
    Unfortunately, many foods are not labeled and every now and then he has
    problems.  

    It seems he can tolerate some small level of MSG, for example, if he
    has soup made with the College Inn chicken broth, there seems to be no
    reaction, but one egg roll from a Chinese Restaurant sends him into
    orbit!  Poor kid really suffers when that happens, in fact, we all do.

    I wonder if anyone has ever come up with an antidote for it?  We have
    had no luck.

    It would really help if things were labeled properly.

    Dennis,

    Hampstead, NH. 

    Forgot to ask the other question in the previous note: What is MSG
    called in French in Canada?  My wife is French Canadien and while there
    she tried to find out if foods had it in them, but it appears that MSG
    is not common usage.  
    
    How does one ask about MSG in French speaking Canada?
    
    Thanks...
    
    Dennis
    

I saw a new blurb the other night about a person with extreme MSG reactions.  It
mentioned that some people react to other "glutamates" as well, which often are
not advertised as such.  One particular ingredient was hydrolyzed vegetable
protien.  

    Gee, regarding .51, I thought someone would know how MSG is identified
    in french speaking Canada?  Any ideas?
    
    Dennis
    

>    Gee, regarding .51, I thought someone would know how MSG is identified
>    in french speaking Canada?  Any ideas?


Perhaps, -

		"MSG, eh?"

    Not sure about Canada but another name for MSG is AJINO-MOTO. This is
    what it is called in INdia.