Conference turris::cooks

    Sue,
       I don't know why the cakes stuck to the pan, but one way to be sure
    it doesn't happen again is to cut a circle the size of the base of each
    pan out of waxed paper and put that in the bottom of each pan. Then,
    when the cakes are cool, loosen them from the sides with a knife and
    tip them out. You can peel the paper right off the cake with no
    trouble.
    
    Debbie
    

    A tip from my Dad who owned a restaurant has always helped in whatever
    I baked.  To make sure your cakes/muffins are done, don't worry so much
    about how long they are to take, but how they feel to the touch.
    
    I always touch the cake.  If my finger leaves an impression, it isn't
    done yet.  If it springs back, it IS done.  Another way is:  is it 
    starting to pull away from the pan edges?  If so, it is done.
    
    Those are the tips for checking whether a cake is really done.  And to
    make sure the cake comes out all in one piece, greasing the pan then
    putting in the wax paper circle work as previously noted.

Thanks for the replies, both .1 and .2 look helpful
I might try again tonite, since this is for Thursday, I might
make another try. I was going to try to touch up with frosting to
salvage the cakes.

Looks like wax paper is a likely source

Also, the touch test might help, there is a "good" chance that it
wasnt' cooked enough, I did notice that neither had pulled away from
the side and the top might have been a little sticky.

I feel "really stupid", I have baked many cakes of all sizes and
have been pretty lucky

						Sue ...

    My mother always said, "a good cook gets a burned finger once in a
    while".
    
    Don't be so hard on yourself.
    
    Ferne
    

    
    From 'The Cake Bible' by Rose Levy Beranbaum:
    
    When a cake is at the end of its bgaking period, the walls surrounding
    the air bubbles rupture, releasing their leavening gases and causing
    the cell walls to shrink very slightly.  There is a visible lowering
    [of the cake surface] in the pan at this point -- a clue to doneness.
    
    To test for doneness, insert a wire cake tester or toothpick as close to
    the center as possible.  It should come out clean, with no crubms
    clinging to it.  Cakes should spring back when pressed lightly in the
    center.  Layer cakes under 10 inches [in diameter] should not start
    shrinking from the sides of the pan before being removed from the oven
    or they will be slightly dry.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

I am getting alot of great ideas here.

I did get two more pkgs of cake mix last night and tried again.

I was successful this time.  I made sure that the pans were THOROUGHLY
GREASED, and floured.

I had to measure 6 cups for the 10" pan and 3 cups for the 8" pan.
I had a little left and put it in a smaller pan. (the night before, 
I had poured the "extra" batter into the two pans to use it up  :-(  ).

The 8" and the smaller one had pulled away from the sides after 35 minutes.
I noiced the 10" had not, I left it in another 5 minutes and it still wasn't
done, I left it an additional 5 minutes and it pulled away from the sides
and left no imprint to touch.

Needless to say, all three came out "PERFECT". I did user the "touch" test 
and looked for it pulling away from the sides of the pan.  I'll try the wax
paper at a later date.

Now all I have to do is figure out how to use the carousel that goes between
the two layers. It is a Wilton decoration. there are two disks and 4 horses
that go between the two disks to separate the layers. It did not have 
directions.  I can put the top layer on the round cardboard provided, then rest
that on the top of the top disk but I am not sure whether the bottom disk
should rest directly on the frosting of the bottom layer.    
    

Thanks for the responses,

(I am usually a read-only noter, but lately I have started using the NOTES
a little more interactively, they are a great resource when you are looking
for something or want to share). I have tried some of the recipes I have
found here and have found some great things.

								Sue ...

    Glad to hear it is coming out well and the touch-test worked for you. 
    As another noter indicated, the" clean" tooth pick approach is another
    way to check for doneness.
    
    I am curious to find out how you put the carousel on top also.  My
    eldest son worked as a baker for a couple of years.  If I think of it,
    I'll ask him how it works but I won't be able to call him before you
    need to complete your project.

    Use wooden dowels to hold up the bottom of the carousel on top of the
    bottom layer.....
    
    Take a wooden dowel l/4" thick and stick it into the bottom cake within
    the circle that will be covered by the carousel bottom, then pull it
    out and cut it where it meets the top of the cake.  Do this again three
    or four more times until you have at least 4-5 dowels pressed into the
    bottom cake so that they will support the bottom plate of the carousel.
    Then set the carousel plate on top of the bottom cake, then your
    carousel and then your top cake sets on the top plate of the carousel.
    
    I hope I haven't made this too confusing...If you have any questions,
    please feel free to call me at DTN:  235-8080.  I'll be happy to help
    you out in any way that I can.
    
    Also, on the cake sticking...If you let the cake set for 10 minutes
    only after you take it out of the oven, then try to take the cake out
    of the pan, this helps.
    
    Hope I have helped...
    
    Cyndi

Just to fill everyone in,

I did use the cake last night, I hadn't really looked at the cake separator
too much ahead of time, I checked about the dowels, but did not need them
for this cake. The bottom of the separator is exactly the same size as the
bottom layer, the top of separator is larger than the 8" top layer, therefore
there was not need for the dowels.  It sat fine.  The frosting did come off
with the removal of the separator, but I have some good hints for next time.
Since the top layer is smaller, it was on a 10" round cardboard, and you
just fill in the edge with frosting trim to bring it out to the edge of
top of separator.

I did get a call from someone named Cheryl in Alpharetta, GA. yesterday.
She is a new NOTER doing READ-ONLY right now and wasn't sure how to respond,
but said I could share her tip (hopefully, she will be getting some help
on NOTES, so she can communicate via the notes, she has some good ideas
--Thanks Cheryl :-)  .

She said you can put a layer of coconut under the separator and it will 
keep the separator from pulling off all the frosting it is sitting on.

Also, about the cakes sticking, she just uses the spray cans instead of
the grease/flour.

I guess I had a two-part problem/question here, maybe the part about
using the separators should have been in  a separate note.

I would still like any information about using separators as I might
get more into that.

Thanks again for all the input

						Sue ...

    
    It's great you had such success with your cake. I have made a few
    wedding cakes and the carousel birthday cake you've described. Maybe
    I can help with the use of the dowels and cardboard separators...
    
    
                          /\/\     (Fancy top)
                         -------
                         |     |   (Top layer) *
                         -------
                         !  !  !   (Fancy columns/separators)
                        ---------
                        |       |  (Second Layer) *
                       -----------                 
                       |         | (Bottom Layer) *
                       -----------
    
    * Layers can be more than one cake with filling/frosting between
    
    Most fancy separators and columns can be attached to plastic separator
    plates sold for that purpose, they are white (used primarily in
    wedding cakes) and provide a firm anchor and stable platform for the
    columns. These plates also have  plastic dowels that attach to the
    underside of the plate...to use instead of the wooden ones.  These,
    like the wooden ones, will also need to be cut to match the actual
    depth of the layer.
    
    The cardboard separators are used between the other layers when
    changing sizes or piling many of the same size.
    
    The wooden dowels are used with both types of separator plates to
    provide stability for the cake. They keep the weight of the higher
    layers from squishing the lower ones. They also keep the cake level,
    more or less, and minimize "listing" to one side ;-)
    
    The Wilton company publishes an annual cake decorating book (soft
    cover) that is very informative and full of ideas for cakes for
    special occassions. I have seen this book at all the party supply
    type store, Sears, Kitchen Etc and so on. If you are interested in
    doing more with cakes, you'd really enjoy this book.
    
    Happy Decorating!
    
    
    michele

    
    The woman who is making my wedding cake uses extra
    cake crubs on top of the layer before putting
    the separator on. 
    
    I guess you can use that if you don't like coconut...
    
    helen
            

    I have yet to make an angel food cake that doesn't stick to the pan. 
    The instructions for the mix explicitly say to not grease the pan.
    
    Could the problem be that I am using a Teflon coated pan?  Would I be
    better off with plain aluminum?
    
    By the way it was delicious (even if not too pretty) with strawberries
    and whipped cream.  A welcome change from shortcake.
    
    thx,
    L

    If you grease the pan - the egg white will have nothing to cling to, to
    climb up the pan. You'll wind up with a 1" brick of cake. I uses 
    aluminum pans.
    
    Mine sticks, too. I just use a rubber spatula, sliding it around the
    outside of the cake and around the middle column.  It doesn't wreck the
    cake, but leaves a coating on the pan.
    
    ~beth

    RE:  -1
    
    >I uses aluminum pans.
    
    Guess I won't rush out to replace my Teflon if you get the same
    results.
    
    >I just use a rubber spatula
    
    We used a table knife. (not sharp)  it slightly marred the teflon
    coating.  I'll try a rubber spatula next time.  I have a rather rigid
    one that might work.
    
    >but leaves a coating on the pan.
    
    Yeah.  When you buy them at the store, they don't have that raggedy
    appearance do they?  What's the trick?  Hmmmm the mysteries of
    professional baking...
    
    L

    re - the mysteries of professional baking
    
    When I was taking cake decorating classes, we were told to
    grease and flour the pans before putting the batter in.
    Sounds familiar, right.  
    
    Well the instructor did a demo for us of how to grease/flour 
    cake pans - generously.  The instructor said "if you can see 
    the pan through the Crisco you don't have enough on the pan".  
    Then she sifted flour into the pan to coat the grease, not 
    just spoon it in and shake it around.
    
    I know it sounds pretty gross, but I've done it myself and the
    cake doesn't come out greasy at all, and you don't get the 
    raggedy edge.
    
    Conni
    
    ps - if you're making a chocolate cake, sift in some cocoa
         powder instead of flour so you don't end up with white
    	 marks on the cake
    
    
    

... and got a horrible pasty coating on what was otherwise quite a 
respectable carrot cake. How do you avoid this coating?

Sheridan
:^)

    Be sure to pre-heat the oven before you put the cake in. 
    
    I used to tun the oven on and toss the cake in a couple 
    of minutes later - way before it was up to temp - and
    sometimes ended up with a greasy cake.  Since I've taken
    the class I always make sure to wait until the oven is
    at the correct temperature before I put the cake in and
    haven't had too much trouble.  If there are spots that 
    have this coating can be brushed lightly with a pastry 
    brush to flake it off (after the cake is cool).   
    
    I don't know if it makes any difference, but I also have
    pans that are just for cakes/baking.  I used to use the
    same 13x9 pan to make a cake, or bake chicken, or cook a
    roast.  Now I have 2 - one for cakes and one for everything
    else.
    
    Conni
    
    

A few replies back, someone mentioned not greasing the side of the cake pan
so that the egg white can cling to it as it rises. Could this apply to regular
cakes as well? Could this be the reason that I usually end up with dome-shaped
layers?

Curious to know...

Scott

    
    In the case of regular cakes (by 'regular' I assume you mean butter
    cakes), a dome-shape usually results from uneven baking.  The outside
    of the cake sets while the center continues to rise.  I have used two
    methods to address this problem:
    
    	1.  Lower oven temperature 25 degrees and bake a bit longer
    
    	2.  Purchase 'magi-cake' strips.  These are fabric strips that you
            soak in water and wrap around the outside of the cake pan
    	    before baking.
    
    Good luck!
    

    In my limited cake-baking experience, the only recipe that tells you to
    not grease or flour the pan is for angel food cake.
    
    All other cakes require grease, some require grease and flour, some say
    to treat only the bottom, some only the sides (e.g. cheesecake) and
    some both bottom and sides.
    
    I strongly urge novice bakers to follow the instructions in the recipe. 
    You can experiment with other types of cooking, but making cakes is a
    precise science.
    
    L

    For the last 4 or 5 years I've used PAM spray for all my cakes,
    cookies, bundt cakes, angel food cakes, carrot, as well as buns and
    sticky rolls.  I just don't worry about the directions that say to
    grease and flour ... I simply use more or less PAM.  With the PAM I did 
    not experience my angel food cake not rising.  I am not aware of any
    environmental nor health reason to use the PAM spray products.   A
    product that I've not tried but seen is a PAM like spray called
    something like "bakers friend" that has oil and flour.
    
    I LOVE this notes conference! Thanks to all those that make it
    possible!

What do the "magi strips" do for you? Do they help the cake rise, or do they
make it easier to get it out of the pan after it's done?


Scott

    
    re: .22
    
    They keep the outside of the cake cooler, preventing the edges from
    setting before the center, and thus help the cake rise evenly.  They
    work suprisingly well.
    
    /Brian/
    
    

    In bakeing school I was taught to use strips of towell, dampened in
    cold water, then wrapped around the pan and held in place with a
    string.
    What this does is to prevent the sides of the cake from cooking first.
    The cool sides force the cake to cook more from the top and bottom,
    which results in a flatter cake which is important if you are going to
    frost and deccorate.
    
    Another tip, if frosting arange the layers so that the bottom layre is
    right side up, and the top layre is top side down, this puts the two
    domes faceing each other, where it is easey to hide with frosting, and
    leaves a nice flat top to work with.

    Let the cake stand in the pan for 10 minutes before removing.  
    Much easier to remove then.
    
    mj 

    I did not know where to put this so mods please move if needed.
    
    My wife and I are thinking of making cakes in mini loaf pans for the
    holidays to give as gifts and when visiting.  We have had other people
    give us choclate carrot cakes and others that are delicious.
    
    My questions:  Is there any rules of thumb that I should be aware of
    when making small portions of recipes?  (e.g. 6 mini loaf cakes vs 9"
    round pan) .
    
    		Is there any techniques I should use?
    
    
    		any help would be appreciated

    Just watch the cooking time. 
    
    What a nice idea - with a personal touch!
    
    ~beth

    I usually make a 'test' cake and measure exactly how much I put in the
    pan and for how long I baked it.  If you are looking for uniformity,
    you'll need to know that you put x cups of batter into Y pans.
    And you get to eat the test cake yourself : )
    Sarah

    On Martha Stewart's Living tv show a week ago Sunday (in the Boston
    area), and in the current Living Magazine there is a recipe and lessons
    for making mini-bundt pumpkin cakes, 'frosted' with orange colored
    marzipan.  The cakes look just like pumpkins, with green marzipan stems.
    
    I love your idea of mini cakes for gift giving -- for Thanksgiving the
    pumpkins, for the holidays how about a xmas tree ornament cake.  With
    the marzipan you could have all different colored ornamets.  I'm crazy
    about this idea! For the cake any 'heavy' spice cake.  
    
    Carel
                                                         
    Carel