Conference turris::cooks

    BREAD STARTER
    
    2 tbls flour
    1-1/2 tsp sugar
    1/2 tsp salt 
    2C. warm milk
    
    mix, leave at room temp in large bowl or crock for 3 or 4 days until
    it sours.
    
    How does this sound.
    

Will Sour dough starter work for "Herman Cake"?  Does anyone have a start
of Herman?

directions follow FF

			Herman Cake

Stir  Herman every day.  Feed him on the 1st and 5th day the following:

			1/2 cup sugar
			1   cup milk
			1   cup flower
Mix thoroughly.
On the 10th day take 1 cup of mixture and set it aside to start another Herman 
cake.  Take another cup and gibe it to a friend. Each cup has to be fed the
above mixture on the same day you bake your Herman cake because this is the 1st
day of the new Herman.
To the remaining batter add

	2 C flower		2 eggs
	1 C sugar		1 1/2 tsp. baking soda
	2/3 C oil		1/2 tsp. salt
	2 tsp. baking powder 	1 C nuts and raisins
	1 1/2 tsp. cinnamon

Mix all together at medium speed until well blended.  Mixture will be thick like
paste.  Pour into greased & flowered 9" by 13" pan.
Add topping:	1/4 C margarine
		1 Tbs. flour
		1 Tbs. cinnamon
		1 C Brown sugar (packed)
Mix together with fork.  Sprinkle on the top and swirl into batter well.  Bake
at 350 for 45 minutes or until done.

Herman will rise so use a big bowl with a lid.  Keep refrigerated all the time.

        I've never tried this recipe, but thought of this note when
    I saw it paging through one of my cookbooks looking for something
    new to prepare.  Its from "Betty Crocker's New American Cooking".
    
    Sourdough Starter
    
    1   teaspoon active dry yeast
    1/4 cup warm water (105 to 115 degrees F)
    3/4 cup milk
    1   cup all-purpose flour
    
    Dissolve yeast in warm water in a 3-quart glass bowl.  Gradually
    stir in flour.  Beat until smooth.  Cover with towel or cheesecloth;
    let stand in warm, draft-free place until starter begins to ferment,
    about 24 hours (bubbles will appear on the surface of the starter).
    If starter has not begun fermentation after 24 hours, discard and
    begin again.  If fermentation has begun, stir well; cover tightly
    with plastic wrap and return to warm, draft-free place.  Let stand
    until foamy, 2 to 3 days.
    
        When starter has become foamy, stir well.  Pour into 1 quart
    crock or glass jar with tight-fitting cover.  Store in refrigerator.
    Starter is ready to use when a clear liquid has risen to the top.
    Stir before using.  Use 1 cup starter in recipe; reserve remaining
    starter.  Add 3/4 cup milk and 3/4 cup flour to reserved starter.
    Store covered at room temperature until bubbles appear, about 12
    hours; refrigerate.
    
        Use starter regularly (every 7 to 10 days). If the volume of
    the breads begins to decrease, dissolve 1 teaspoon active dry yeast
    in 1/4 cup warm water.  Stir in 1/2 cup milk, 3/4 cup flour, and
    the remaining starter.
    
        The book also includes a recipe for Sourdough French bread.
    If you need that too just ask.  I'm too slow a typist to do it now.
    
    ASP

 
    The Sunset cookbook _Breads_ contains a chapter on sourdough including
    a starter recipe using skim milk, yogurt, and flour and about a
    dozen sourdough recipes.  I made the starter recipe in January
    and on the second try (the first attempt was a disaster), Charlie
    was born.  He lives in the refrigerator in a peanut butter jar with
    a plastic lid (most recipe books caution against using any metal
    utensils with the starter).  He is quite active and bubbles within
    an hour of being removed from the refrigerator, as well as within
    about 20 minutes of being replenished after I've removed a cup or
    so.  He has the consistency of yogurt (not too surprising, given
    his parents).  I use a cup of sourdough whenever I bake bread
    (about once a week) simply by slightly reducing the liquid in the
    recipe by 1/4 to 1/2 cup.
    
    My question is this:  Sourdough breads usually have a distinctive,
    tangy taste.  My breads (even the recipes tailored for sourdough)
    are generally quite mild.  Is this because my sourdough starter
    is still quite young (about 3 months now) and/or because I don't
    "proof" the starter beyond allowing it to come to room temperature?
    The _Frugal Gormet Cooks American_ recommends proofing the room-
    temperature starter with warm water (I'd use skim milk if I did
    this to preserve the flavor of my particular starter) and flour
    and letting it sit for 12 hours.
    
    Suggestions and more sourdough recipes welcome.
    
    Thanks,
    Tammy

    I hope someone savvy like Wilde or Aitel responds; I'd like to know
    more about sourdoughs.  I make some sourdough breads, but I'm still
    a sourdough cub.
    
    I would suggest a sponge approach to these breads, but then I sponge
    almost all of my breads.
    
    Sponging is *not* the same as proofing.  Mix the recipe starter
    with all the water needed plus half the recipe flour.  Let it sit
    overnight in a covered plastic bowl.  The flour will develop flavor
    and, perhaps more important, react with the water.  This is especially
    recommended with rye flour --- sponge *all* the rye with some of the
    wheat flour.

>    I hope someone savvy like Wilde or Aitel responds; I'd like to know
>    more about sourdoughs.  I make some sourdough breads, but I'm still
>    a sourdough cub.
    
You rang??  The answer to your questions is YES...yes, proofing will increase
the sourness (that nice tang) and so will keeping your friend going long
enough...Proofing will have a more immediate result.

		D_who_can't_keep_a_starter_going_due_to_lack_of_use

P.S.  This is about the time of year to start a nice "wild" starter by
leaving your mixture out on a counter for a few days to get really good
and sour.  It will pick up lots of nice wild yeast if it is covered
loosely.

			D

    In response to the question of Andy Sadler in 632.7, 

    Sourdough is an ancient way of leavening bread with yeast.  Wild yeast
    spores in the air, even the air you are now breathing, will grow in
    most wet carbohydrate mixtures.  If you were to make your bread daily
    in the same mixing trough without cleaning it, traces of the previous
    batches would inoculate the current dough with yeast; if the dough were
    to be kept warm and moist, this yeast would leaven the dough,
    especially if the moist dough were to be massaged to move the yeast
    around.  But the process would be very slow because of the small
    quantity of yeast carried into the new dough.  However, if, instead of
    depending upon the unintended remains of the dough for inoculation, you
    were to keep a cup or two of the dough uncooked and include it in the
    next day's batch, then the quantity of yeast would be enough to cause
    significant leavening in a reasonable time.  That is the basis for
    sourdough. 

    If this handful were to be kept moist longer than a day, the taste
    would gradually change and become very, very strong.  That is a
    sourdough starter.  The taste of sourdough bread (i.e., bread
    inoculated with a sourdough starter) depends on the age of the starter,
    the ratio of starter to fresh dough, the proofing conditions, and the
    particular strains of micro-organisms dominant in that starter at that
    date.  This last factor is very difficult to control. 

    Packages of yeast sold in the grocery are nearly pure concentrations of
    yeast, not sourdough starters.  Yeast leavening is very fast but not
    very tasty compared to sourdough leavening.  The yeast is too pure. In
    practice, the starter is usually augmented with yeast in the dough for
    a fast leavening with a mild sourdough taste. 
    
    Once you have a starter bubbling in your refrigerator, the technique of
    using it is rather standard.  A cup or two is removed for the new bread
    and replenished in the old.  The replenishment feeds the yeast and
    becomes homogeneous with the old.  The replenishment ratio and
    frequency also affect the taste of the bread, and this replenishment is
    important to keep undesired organisms such as molds from becoming
    dominant. 

    I have two sourdough starters going and available to COOKS nearby.  (I
    work in MKO2 and live in Mont Vernon, NH.) 

    My sourdough rye starter was itself started from scratch and makes a
    delicious eastern European rye bread. (See note 167.1)  My white
    starter was given to me by Lucia's bakery in Nashua and makes a
    delicate sourdough bread.  (See notes 948.6 and 819.17) 

    You can make a starter very easily.  Mix flour and good water and some
    yeast into a very soft dough; I make mine very wet, the consistency of
    pancake batter, but the old timers would have made theirs more stiff to
    be kept buried in their packs of flour.  Barely cover this soft dough
    to keep out vermin and let it sit in a warm room for several days to
    pick up wild micro-organisms and ferment.  Warning: allow enough free
    space in the container for the goop to triple in volume during the
    fermentation.  I suggest five to six cups of starter in a juice
    pitcher.  I am meticulous about never allowing metal to touch my
    starter, using only glass and plastic; even my whisk is nylon. 

    When the fermentation quiets down, refrigerate the starter until you
    need some for bread making.  Then replenish it with about the same
    ratio of flour and water, let it ferment at least over night, and
    return it to the refrigerator.  No yeast is needed for replenishment; I
    think the original yeast is only to bias the micro population towards
    yeasts and not molds. 

    More elaborate starters can be found in most bread books but especially
    in the following: 

      Ruth Allman,	Alaska Sourdough, ISBN 0-88240-085-1, $7 LL Bean

      Rita Davenport,	Sourdough Cookery, (HP Books ?)

      Ada Lou Roberts, Sourdough Breads and Coffee Cakes, ISBN 0-486-24529-2

    Pain de Campagne
    
    This is best if baked on an oven stone.  You will need baking sheets,
    several medium sized mixer bowls and one LARGE mixer bowl.  You will
    also need a couple days time for this to work right, but it's only
    the final steps where you are really busy.
    
    Ingredients:
    
    Starter
    1 1/2 cups all purpose flour
    1 pkg. dry yeast (not rapid rising)
    2/3 cup hot water
    1/3 cup buttermilk (room temperature)
    1 tsp vinegar
    
    Levain
    1 cup water (room temperature)
    2 cups whole-wheat flour
    1/2 cup wheat germ
    1 cup all purpose flour
    
    Dough
    2 cups water (room temperature)
    4 1/2 cups (approximate) all purpose flour
    4 tsp salt dissolved in 4 tsp water
    
    Instructions:
    
    Starter
    Measure the flour into a medium mixer bowl and stir in the yeast.  Pour
    in the hot water, buttermilk and vinegar.  Stir to make a heavy batter.
    Cover tightly with plastic wrap and let stand for 12 to 36 hours at
    room temperature.  You can work with it again once it has risen and
    fallen.
    
    Levain
    After the 12 to 36 hours, uncover the bowl and stir in the water,
    whole-wheat flour and wheat germ and sufficient white flour to make
    a soft ball of dough (stiffer than a batter).  Re-cover and set
    aside for at least 6 hours at room temperature--or more if convenient.
    
    Dough
    Uncover the levain, stir it down with a rubber scraper, lift onto your
    work surface, shape into a ball and set aside.  Pour water into a 
    clean medium size mixer bowl.  Add 1 1/2 cups flour.  Mix to a thick
    batter.  Add another 3-4 cups flour (1/4 cup at a time) to make a soft
    dough you can lift from the bowl.  Knead this dough until it is smooth.
    
    Press the levain into a flat oval and cover it with the white dough.
    Fold the two together.  Fold and knead until the two are completely
    blended.  Add more flour if needed. The dough should be elastic yet
    firm.  It should hold a ball shape, but the ball should collapse if
    you press it with your fingers.  Knead for 8 minutes.  Make a well in
    the center of the dough and add the salt water.  Knead for another 10
    minutes.  Place the dough in the LARGE greased bowl, cover with plastic
    wrap and let rise until more than doubled in volume--about 2 hours.
    Punch down and divide into as many pieces as you want loaves.  Shape
    the loaves--I like round loaves--and place on the baking sheets. It's
    a good idea to sprinkle the baking sheets with corn meal.  Cover the
    loaves with a cloth and let rise for another 1 1/2 hours.  
    
    Preheat the oven to 450.  Put in a broiler pan while preheating.  Five
    minutes before the loaves go in the oven,  put one cup hot water in the
    broiler pan to create steam.  Do this with a long handled pot.  Uncover
    the loaves.  With a single-edged razor or a very sharp knife, cut
    slashes in the top of each.  Sprinkle with flour and then spray them
    with water.  Bake in the middle of the oven for 35-40 minutes.

                  Classic Sourdough French Bread

From "Sunset Cook Book of Breads" (unauthorized)

2 cups warm water (about 110F)
1 cup sourdough starter, at room temperature
7 1/2 to 8 cupss all-purpose flour, unsifted
2 teaspoons each salt and sugar
  Cornmeal
  Boiling water
1 teaspoon cornstarch mixed with 1/2 cup water

In a large bowl, cobine water, starter and 4 cups of the flour; stir until
smooth. Cover bowl with clear plastic wrap and let stand in a warm place
(about 85F) for 6 to 8 hours or until mixture is full of bubbles and 
spongy-looking.

Stir in salt, sugar, and enough of the remainder flour (about 3 cups) to form
a very stiff dough. Turn dough onto floured board; knead until smooth (10 to
20 minutes) , adding flour as needed to prevent sticking. Turn dough over in
a greased bowl; cover and let rise in a warm place until doubled (2 to 2 1/2 
hours).

Punch dough down and divide in half. Knead each piece gently on a floured
board just until dough has a smooth surface. If you have only 1 oven, wrap
half the dough in clear plastic wrap and refrigerate.

For an oblong loaf, shape dough into a smooth log by rolling it back and
forth, gently elongating loaf to about 14 inches. Sprinkle a piece of stiff
cardboard (about 7 by 18 inches) with 3 tablespoons cornmeal and set loaf
on top.

For a round loaf, shape dough into a smooth ball. Place loaf on a 12 inches
square piece of stiff cardboard sprinkled with 3 tablespoons cornmeal.

Cover loaves lightly; let rise in a warm place until puffy and almost 
doubled (1 to 1 1/2 hours). With oven racks in the 2 lowest positions, place
a baking sheet on top rack as oven preheats to 400F. Just before bread is
ready to bake, place a rimmed baking sheet on lowest rack and pour in boiling
water about 1/4 inch deep.

Meanwhile, heat cornstarch and water to boiling stirring; cool slightly. With
a razor blade or sharp floured knife, cut 1/2 inches deep slashes in top of 
loaf - 3 slightly slanting slashes in oblong loaf, 4 slashes in a crisscross
pattern in round loaf. Then brush top  and sides evenly with cornstarch mix-
ture. Carefully slide loaf from cardboard onto baking sheet in oven.

Bake at 400F for 10 minutes; then brush evenly again with cornstarch mixture.
Bake to 20 to 25 minutes longer or until loaves are golden brown and sound
hollow when tapped. Cool on rack. Makes 2 loaves.


                              Sourdough starter


Start with a 1 1/2 quart glass, pottery, rigid plastic, or stainless container.
Rinse with hot water for several minutes, then wipe dry.

Heat 1 cup skim or low fat milk to 90F to 100F on a thermometer (skim gives the
most tang). Remove from heat and stir in 3 tablespoons unflavored, low fat
yogurt (any brand). Pour milk into the warm container, cover thightly, and
let stand in a warm place. Temperature of 80F to 100F are ideal (above 100F
bacteria may be killed - it could smell sour, but won't get bubbly; below
70F it doesn't grow well).

Look for a warm place to put the starter. Good spots are on top of water
heaters, built in refrigerators, on other partially enclosed areas where heat
collects. If you have a gas range, place the starter on a burner near (but not
over) the pilot light.

With an electric oven, you can adjust a rack so top of container will be 2 to 2
1/2 inches under the oven light. Turn oven to lowest setting or just until air
inside feels slightly warmer than room temperature; turn oven off. Place
container directly in front of (but not touching) the light. Close door and
turn light on (or prop door open just enough to keep light on). If room is
cold, occasionally remove container and repeat oven warming.

After about 18 to 24 hours, starter should be about the consistency of yogurt
(a curd forms and mixture does not flow readily when container is slightly
tilted). During this time if some clear liquid rises to top of milk, simply
stir it back in. However if liquid has turned light pink, it indicates that
milk is begining to break down; discard and start again.

After a curd has formed, gradually stir 1 cup all purpose flour (unsifted) into
the starter until smoothly blended. Cover  tightly and let stand in a warm
place (80F to 100F is ideal) until mixture is full of bubbles and has a good
sour smell; this takes 2 to 5 days.

During this time, if clear liquid forms, stir it back into starter. But if
liquid turns pink spoon out and discard all but 1/4 cup of starter, then blend
in a mixture of 1 cup each warm milk (90F to 100F) and flour. Cover tightly and
let stand again in a warm place until bubbly and sour smelling - then it's
ready to use. Or cover it and store in refrigerator. This makes about 1 1/2
cups starter.

Should a little growth of mold form on your starter at any time, simply scrape
it off and discard. The mold is harmless and is similar to the type that often
forms in cheese.

While your starter is "young" (up to six months old), you are more likely to
have success with it if you use it in recipes that also includes yeast. To
maintain an ample supply, each time you use part of your starter replenish it
with equal amounts of milk and flour. Cover and let stand in a warm place
serveral hours or overnight until it is again full of bubbles; then store,
covered, in the refrigerator until you use it again.

    When I was in college, I became friends with my college instructor. 
    She had me over for brunch one day and served me this cake she called
    "Herman".  She told me she got the recipe and a cup of the batter from
    a friend in Pennsylvania.  She gave me the recipe and a starter cup.
    
    The following is the recipe:
    
    			Say Hi to "Herman"
    
    On the day you get Herman give him a feeding of 1/2 cup of sugar, 1 cup
    of flour and 1 cup of milk.  Stir each day and keep refrigerated.  Feed
    again on the 5th day.  Bake on the 10th day.  When ready to bake use
    two cups Herman in the cake (recipe will follow) one cup to start
    another one, and one cup to give away.
    
    			Herman Schedule
    
    		1st Day - Feed		6th Day - Stir	 
    		2nd Day - Stir		7th Day - Stir
    		3rd Day - Stir		8th Day - Stir
    		4th Day - Stir		9th Day - Stir
    		5th Day - Feed	       10th Day - Bake
    
    	     Be Good to Herman and He'll be Good for You.		
    
    RECIPE:
    
    			HERMAN 10 DAY CAKE
    
      2 cups Herman			3/4 cup milk
      2 cups flour			2/3 cup oil
      1 cup sugar			2 eggs	
      1/2 tsp. baking soda		1 cup raisins} Stir
      1 1/2 tsp. cinnnamon		1 cup nuts   }  in
      1/2 tsp. salt		
      2 tsp. baking powder   
    
    Mix all ingredients together at medium speed with mixer.  Stir in nuts
    and raisins.  Pour into greased and flour 9 x 13 pan.  Sprinkle on
    topping before baking.
    
    				TOPPING
    
    	1 Tbsp. flour			1 tsp. cinnamon
    	1 cup brown sugar		1/4 cup margarine
    
    Mix all together until crumbly.  Sprinkle on uncooked batter.  Bake at
    350 degrees 30 - 40 minutes.
    
    I really don't know what was in the starter recipe.  It bubbles as if
    if has yeast in it, but I was told it didn't.  This is all I know on
    this Friendship cake.
    
    Corey

The latest _Chez Panisse_ cookbook (I believe it's by Paul Bertolli and
Alice Waters) has a large section on what they call 'spontaneously leavened
bread.'  In the days before dried yeast, the local baker would keep a starter
going for years.  The basic principle is to take a large portion of the starter
each time you bake, and replace it with flour and water.  Doing this daily is
best, though he says if you keep it in the 'fridge and stir and refresh it
at intervals, it will stay indefinitely.

He gives two starter recipes; the traditional ones contain no yeast.  
You boil up some potatoes and add unbleached organic flour; the flour contains
the necessary yeast spores.  The other recipe, an original of the baker to 
_Chez Panisse_, uses California (of course, if you're in France...) wine grapes
as an original inoculum of yeast spores.   The grapes are slightly crushed and
removed after the starter is going; since you can refresh it indefinitely,
there is no taste of grape, yet the flavor is reportedly sort of winey.

I'd highly recommend this book for the advanced breadmaker.  This guy is such
an _aficionado_ that he had a brick oven built behind his house. He also gives
a troubleshooting chart, which is mighty useful.

John

RE: .15

>The other recipe, an original of the baker to 
>_Chez Panisse_, uses California (of course, if you're in France...) wine grapes
>as an original inoculum of yeast spores.   The grapes are slightly crushed and
>removed after the starter is going; since you can refresh it indefinitely,
>there is no taste of grape, yet the flavor is reportedly sort of winey.

Ripe grapes always have some "wild" yeasts growing on them, which is how this
method for creating a leavening starter culture works.

--PSW

    Herman Starter
    
    2 cups all-purpose flour
    1 tsp. salt
    2 cus warm water (105-115 degrees)
    1/4 cup sugar
    1 envelope yeast
    
                  
    Combine ingredients in plastic or glass container. Let stand in
    warm place lightly covered overnight or several hours.  Refrigerate
    covered. Stir every day.
    
    On fifth day, feed starter with 1 cup flour, 1 cup milk and 1/2 cup
    sugar. On the 10th day, you are ready to bake.
    
    Before baking, remove 1 cup of starter, feed it and return it to
    refrigerator.  This is the basis for a new batch of Herman. Stir
    daily, and feed on the fifth day.  On the 10th day, remove 1 cup,
    feed it, and repeat process.
    
    The mixture remaining after you remove the 1 cup can be used for
    baking or given away.
    
    
      **There's also a few recipes in the book - Sourdough Bread & Herman
    Dinner Rolls.  Will post when I have some time***
    
    
    Flo

    "HERMAN" is my best friend!  Making your own starter is the best way to
    go.  I don't always use the amount of sugar as stated in the recipe
    each time I feed him though;  I find it makes the bread too sweet.  If
    you spend just 2 minutes a day stirring and feeding him when he's
    hungry, he'll just keep bubbling merrily until you need him for your
    next recipe.  He makes a great coffee cake and excellent sourdough
    bread.  My present Herman is almost a year old and I keep him in the
    refrigerator in a plastic container with the lid half-way on.  
    
    He can get out of hand if you don't use him though.  The container just
    keeps getting fuller and he will overflow all over the place.  If I
    plan to use him for bread on Saturday morning I just take out 2 cups
    and leave it on the counter in a bowl (put a plate on top) the night
    before.  Every month or so I put Herman in a bowl, clean his container
    and put him back in it.  He likes to be made into cinnamon rolls on
    Sunday morning and served with coffee.  
    
    Hope some of you try "HERMAN" soon!!
    

    RE: 632.10
    
    I've read and enjoyed the many requests for sourdough starter & care
    and will share my recipes for "HERMAN" that I've been using on and off
    for many years.  Some of you may recognize the "AMISH FRIENDSHIP BREAD"
    that has been passed around without success by many.  They are all a
    variation of the sourdough starter and can be used with almost any
    recipe.  
    
    Keeping the starter refrigerated is the most practical, especially when
    you forget to stir or "feed" it for a few days.  I will include a few
    recipes that are tried and true.
    
    HERMAN...no one seems to know exactly where HERMAN got his start or why
    he's called HERMAN!  But an increasing number of people are giving him
    tender loving care.
    
    HERMAN becomes one of the family.  He spends most of his time in the
    refrigerator.  Basically, HERMAN is a sourdough starter.  If he is
    given a good stir daily; fed every 5 days with 1 Cup Milk, 1 Cup Flour
    and 1/4 to 1/2 Cup sugar, he grows merrily and is a good friend.
    
    After five days or a week, HERMAN is ready to use.  A cup of the
    starter can be taken out and mixed with other ingredients to make
    delicious coffee cakes, breads, cakes, cookies, biscuits, pancakes,
    waffles or almost anything requiring some yeast or leavening action.
    
    A cup of HERMAN can be put into a small container and given to a
    friend.  (Amish Friendship Bread?)  Along with the starter, include
    directions for the care of HERMAN and a recipe.
    
    
    STARTER & CARE
    
    Combine:	2 Cups All-Purpose Flour
    		2 Cups Warm Water
    		1 Package Active Dry Yeast or
    		  1 Yeast Cake
    
    Mix ingredients in a crock, glass or plastic bowl (never in a metal
    bowl (it stops yeast growth and sourdough will breakdown).  Keep the
    mixture overnight in a warm place and it will be active & bubbly the
    next day.  It can be used at this time, but it is better if stored in
    the refrigerator and cared for in the following manner:
    
    Feed HERMAN on the day after you start him & on the 5th day and each
    5th day afterwards with:
    
    1 Cup Milk
    1 Cup Flour
    1/4 to 1/2 Cup Sugar (this amount can vary depending on your
    preference)  
    
    Mix these ingredients until smooth (a whisk works well) and stir
    gently.  HERMAN doesn't seem to mind a bit.  On the 10th day, remove
    a cup of starter to give to a friend or use it to make one of the
    following recipes:
    
    			HERMAN'S ROLLED BISCUITS
    
    1 Cup HERMAN			2 Tablespoons Corn Oil
    1 Cup Flour				1/2 Teaspoon Salt
    1/4 Teaspoon Baking Soda		2 Teaspoons Baking Powder
    
    Mix HERMAN & oil.  Sift dry ingredients together and add to HERMAN and
    oil.  Roll mixture on a floured surface until 1/2" thick.  Cut biscuits
    in rounds, place on a baking sheet lightly sprayed with cooking oil. 
    Let rise for 15 minutes before baking in a 375 degree oven for 20
    minutes or until golden on top.
    
    
    			HERMAN'S CINNAMON ROLLS
    
    2 Cups HERMAN			2 Cups Flour
    1/2 Teaspoon Salt			1/2 Teaspoon Baking Soda
    4 Teaspoons Baking Powder		1/2 Cup Corn Oil
    
    Mix all ingredients together, turn out onto a floured surface and knead
    until the mixture is no longer sticky.  Roll out 1/4" thick (approx.
    10X22" inches.  Spread with soft margarine (not melted).  Sprinkle with
    a cinnamon & white sugar mixture (1/4 cup sugar and 2 Tsp. cinnamon). 
    Roll up lengthwise and cut into 3/4" slices.
    
    Take a 10X13" baking pan and place a stick of margarine in the bottom. 
    Place on burner and heat until melted - do not let it get hot - remove
    from heat.  Sprinkle 1 Cup Brown Sugar over the melted margarine and
    1/2 Cup Chopped Nuts.  Pecan halves can be used instead.  Place the
    sliced rolls on top of the sugar mixture and let rise 30 minutes in a
    warm place (covered).  Bake 20 - 25 minutes in a 350 degree oven -
    invert pan into another 10X13" baking pan or a baking sheet covered
    with aluminum foil immediately (before sugar mixture become sticky).  
    
    Drizzle top of rolls with icing if desired.  1 Cup Confectioners sugar
    & 1 Tablespoon of milk OR lemon juice.
    
    
    			HERMAN'S ONION BREAD
    
    2 Cups HERMAN			3 Cups Flour
    1 Teaspoon Salt			2 Tablespoons Sugar
    3 Tablespoons melted & cooled Margarine
    1 Envelope Dry Onion Soup Mix
    
    Combine all ingredients, using enough flour to make a soft dough. 
    Place on a floured surface & knead until smooth, about 7 minutes. 
    Place in a greased bowl, turning to grease top.  Cover and let rise
    until doubled in bulk.  Punch down, wait 15 minutes & shape into a loaf
    (or 1-1/2" balls for rolls).  Place in a greased loaf pan (or 9" cake
    pan for rolls).  Cover & let rise until doubled, about 1 hr.  Bake for
    50 minutes in a 350 degree oven (less for rolls).
    
    
    			HERMAN PANCAKES
    
    ...just add 1/2 Cup HERMAN to your favorite recipe or...
    
    2 Cups HERMAN			1/4 Cup Corn Oil
    2 Eggs				2 Tablespoons Sugar
    1 Teaspoon Salt			1 Teaspoon Baking Soda
    
    Combine all ingredients, mixing thoroughly.  (fold in berries if
    desired).  Pour 1/4 Cup of batter on a slightly greased hot griddle. 
    Cook 3 minutes on each side.  Makes about 12 pancakes.
    (Try 1 Cup Whole Kernel Corn instead of berries)
    
    
    
    			HERMAN'S COFFEECAKE
    
    1 Cup HERMAN				2 Cups Flour
    1/2 Cup Sugar				3/4 Cup Corn Oil
    2 Eggs					1/2 Teaspoon Baking Soda
    1/2 Teaspoon Cinnamon			2 Teaspoons Baking Powder
    1/2 Teaspoon Salt				1 Cup Raisins
    1/2 Cup Chopped Nuts
    
    In a large bowl, combine HERMAN, eggs, and oil.  Sift dry ingredients
    together and add to the creamed mixture.  Fold in raisins and nuts and
    spoon into a greased 10"13" baking pan.  Swirl the top with the
    following mixture:
    
    1/2 Cup Brown Sugar
    1 Tablespoon Flour
    1 Tablespoon Cinnamon
    1/2 Stick Melted Margarine
    
    Bake approximately 40 minutes in a 350 degree oven.  Test with a
    toothpick before removing from oven.  Top should be golden brown.
    
    
    NOTE:  If HERMAN gets ahead of you, freeze some of the starter in 1 cup
    containers, leaving 2" of space at the top.  When it is removed, it
    will re-activate.  An exact timetable is not vital to HERMAN's
    survival...if you don't have time to feed him on the 10th day for
    instance, give him 1 teaspoon of sugar to tide him over a day or two. 
    He must have something to feed on to grow.
    
    
    			HERMAN's OATMEAL COOKIES
    
    3/4 Cup Brown Sugar			6 Tablespoons Soft Margarine
    1/4 Cup Shortening			1 Cup HERMAN
    1/2 Teaspoon Vanilla		1 Cup Flour
    1/2 Teaspoon Baking Soda		1/2 Teaspoon Cinnamon
    1/4 Teaspoon Ground Cloves		1/4 Teaspoon Nutmeg
    1-1/2 Cups Quick Oats		1/2 Cup Chopped Nuts
    3/4 Cup Raisins
    
    In a large mixing bowl, cream sugar, margarine, and shortening until
    fluffy.  Add HERMAN & vanilla - mix only until combined.  In a small
    bowl, sift dry ingredients together and add to HERMAN mixture, mixing
    until well combined.  Fold in oats, nuts & raisins.  Drop by teaspoons
    onto a lightly greased cookie sheet.  Bake for 10-12 minutes in a 350
    degree oven.
    
    
    Enjoy!!
    Mona
    

    HERMAN's ROLLED BISCUITS
    
    1 Cup HERMAN
    2 Tablespoons Corn Oil
    1 Cup Flour
    1/2 Teaspoon Salt
    1/4 Teaspoon Baking Soda
    2 Teaspoons Baking Powder
    
    Mix HERMAN & oil.  Sift dry ingredients together and add to HERMAN
    mixture.  Roll out on a floured surface until 1/2" thick.  Cut biscuits
    into rounds 2-1/2" & place on a baking sheet lightly sprayed with
    vegetable spray.  Let rise for 15 minutes before baking in a 375o oven
    for 20 minutes.
    
    
    HERMAN's COFFEE CAKE
    
    1 Cup HERMAN                      2 Cups Flour
    3/4 Cup Corn Oil		      1/2 Cup Sugar
    2 Eggs			      1/2 Teaspoon Baking Soda
    1/2 Teaspoon Cinnamon 	      2 Teaspoons Baking Powder
    1/2 Teaspoon Salt		      1 Cup Raisins
    1 Cup Chopped Nuts
    
    Mix HERMAN, oil and eggs in a large mixer bowl at low speed.  In
    another bowl, sift dry ingredients together.  Stir them into the HERMAN
    mixture and pour into a greased 9X13" baking pan.  Swirl top of the
    batter with the following:
    
    1/2 Stick Melted Margarine		1 Tablespoon Flour
    1/2 Cup Brown Sugar			1 Tablespoon Cinnamon
    
    Bake approximately 40 minutes @ 350o.
    
    NOTE:  If HERMAN gets ahead of you, freeze some of the starter in 1 cup
    containers, leaving 2" of space at the top.  When it is removed from
    the freezer, it will re-activate.  An exact timetable is not vital to
    HERMAN's survival....if you don't have time to feed him on the 10th
    day, for instance, give him 1 teaspoon of sugar to tide him over a day
    or two.  He must have something to feed on to grow.
    
    
    (THIS IS THE BEST RECIPE)!!
    
    HERMAN's CINNAMON ROLLS
    
    Preheat oven to 350o
    
    2 Cups HERMAN			2 Cups Flour
    1/2 Cup Corn Oil			1/2 Teaspoon Baking Soda
    1/2 Teaspoon Salt			4 Teaspoons Baking Powder
    
    Sift dry ingredients together into a large mixing bowl.  Add HERMAN and
    oil and stir until mixed.  Turn out onto a heavily floured surface and
    knead until the mixture is no longer sticky.  (adding flour when
    necessary).  Roll out to 1/4" thick rectangle (approx. 14"X22")  Spread
    dough with 1/2 stick margarine at room temperature (DO NOT USE MELTED
    MARGARINE), using a table knife or spatula.
    
    Sprinkle with a cinnamon & sugar mixture:
    1/4 Cup Sugar & 2 Teaspoons Cinnamon
    (1/2 Cup Currants or Raisins can be sprinkled evenly if desired)
    
    Roll up lengthwise and let set for a few minutes while you do the
    following:
    
    Melt 1 stick Margarine in a small pan (or microwave in a small dish
    with cover) and pour into a 10X14" baking pan.  
    
    Sprinkle 1/2 Cup Brown Sugar evenly over melted margarine.  Place pecan
    halves (optional) on sugar or sprinkle additional chopped nuts.
    
    Slice the cinnamon roll into 1" thick slices with a thin knife and
    place cut sude down on top of sugar & nut mixture in pan.  Let rise for
    1 hour and bake 20-25 minutes or golden.  Invert pan onto a large piece
    of foil or another pan of the same size, immediately (before sugar
    hardens).  
    
    * If using foil, remove cinnamon rolls from the foil when they are cool
    enough to handle and transfer them to a serving platter.
    
    Drizzle with a glaze if desired, using:
    1 Cup Confectioners Sugar
    2 Tablespoons Lemon Juice
      or Milk
    
    Takes approximately 2 hours from start to finish if you remember to
    take the 2 cups of HERMAN out the night before and put him into a 4
    cup or more container (remember he grows at room temp.) covered with a
    dish or plastic wrap.  
    
    Great on Sunday morning with fresh coffee!  Enjoy.
    
    Mona
     

>    What is the theory behind not using a metal container for the starter? 
>    Does some sort of chemical reaction occur?  Anybody know?

I was told that a chemical reaction does occur...and when I said, "but
stainless steel shouldn't react!", I was also told that the metal changes
temperature faster and more completely than glass or plastic.  A starter
depends on a consistent internal temperature to work - ergo, glass is
the most highly recommended container material - it neither drops temp
nor raises temp very fast and therefore has least effect on the contents
while those little yeasties happily multiply...

    
    I've been quite sick for some time (seems my body is allergic to 
    life) and my poor starter (used once a week faithfully for months) 
    had just started to get good and sour when I began neglecting it.
    
    Not only have I not used him, I have not stirred or fed poor Herman 
    in at least 2 weeks, possibly as long as 4.  I wish I had put him in 
    the freezer then!  I have not had the heart to take the lid off and 
    check how it's doing, but through the clear sides, I can see that the 
    starter has separated.  A darkish liquid has risen to the top.  
    
    Has anyone had experience in bringing a sourdough starter back to life?
    Is it dead?  Should I dump it and start over?  
    
    dm

	Hi Danielle!  Hey, it's finally my turn to give YOU advice! %^)

	I wouldn't worry about Herman.  I started a batch of sourdough
	starter a little over a year ago (from a packet I got in SF).
	I faithfully used it for maybe a month.  Then, it basically sat
	neglected in my fridge for close to a year when I got the urge
	to make something with it (Herman's cinnamon buns.  YUM!).  

	I peeked at the container of starter, and discovered that it had
	separated, with a darkish fluid on top.  Looked nasty.  Smelled
	worse.  Well, I figured, sourdough starter is *supposed* to smell
	nasty, right?  So I made the buns anyway.  And they came out
	great!  The next week I made Herman's coffee cake.  Great again!

	So, I wouldn't worry about your own young Herman. I think he'll
	be fine.  Just be sure to proof him overnight before you use him.

	Sue

I made a Herman as per above instructions, and made some
bread.  It rose OK, but it tasted pretty much like
any other bread, and I gather that sourdough bread
is supposed to taste different.

Anyway, I then progressed to the Cinamon rolls.  It was
the end of Herman, as I only had just enough for the
recipie. (despite having replenished it with flour and
milk and having left it a couple of days after making
the bread) The rolls also refused to rise even a little
bit.

I have made Son of Herman since then, and he has risen
more than his dear departed predecessor, as I made him
with milk to start with.  After his first stir, though,
he fell back and did not retain his former glory.

What am I doing wrong??

Aly

PS Has anyone any more sourdough recipies?  I'm
   determined to master Herman...

    Hi Aly,
    
    When I first made my herman, even after sponging
    for 18 hours, the bread did not taste sour.  It
    took about a month before the starter really started
    to taste sour, so much so that now I don't sponge
    at all, I just pour a cup of herman in and the taste
    is fantastic.  
    
    As I wrote a few notes back, I thought Herman was dead, 
    because I'd neglected him for close to two months, but 
    he's fine.  Doesn't bubble like he used to (used to 
    nearly blow right out of his home, now he just rises a 
    little bit).  
    
    I am not a big fan of James Beard's book on bread, but
    he does state that sourdough is an 'iffy' venture.  
    It just can't be started in some areas of the world.  I
    don't know if I believe him, but if it's true, try 
    finding someone with an established Herman who'll give
    you a cup.  (I'd give you some of mine, but I live in
    Boston).  
    
    dm

>    I am not a big fan of James Beard's book on bread, but
>    he does state that sourdough is an 'iffy' venture.  
>    It just can't be started in some areas of the world.  I
>    don't know if I believe him, but if it's true, try 
>    finding someone with an established Herman who'll give
>    you a cup.  (I'd give you some of mine, but I live in
>    Boston).  
    
actually, it IS pretty iffy, a you and James say.  The problem is that the
climate can reduce the amount of wild yeasties floating around in the air.
These yeasties are what you want to move in and settle down in your Herman
starter.  A sourdough starter that is already well "started" is not so
affected by the changes in climate, but starting one can be difficult.  In
general, yeasties like warm, moist (okay, okay, terribly humid) climates best.
If you aren't in such an environment, this could be your problem.
You do have another option, however....buy a sourdough starter packet of
dried yeast at your local gourmet shop.  Then, maintain it from that point.

yeastie = wild yeast spore {only less typing}

RE: .23

What makes a sourdough starter sour is the type of yeast involved.  Adding
packaged yeast will not help you in cultivating the sourdough yeast.  In fact,
it is the best way I can think of to guarantee that your starter *never* gets
sourdough yeast established.

--PSW

    
    (This may be the only time I disagree with PSW, so mark it in history)
    
    re: -1
    
    Although some starters can be made from potatoes, potato water and/or
    other wild yeast friendly ingredients, most of the modern, make at 
    home starter recipes I've seen include regular yeast.  As someone 
    pointed out earlier in this topic, adding regular yeast may serve the
    purpose of pre-disposing the starter to growing yeast and not mold.
    Not being a great student of science, I can only tell you that 
    I started my Herman with yeast and he makes the most fantastic sourdough 
    bread, 2 loaves a week, minimum.
    
    dm

I do not know what you would get by adding yeast to an already started
"herman"....however, it wouldn't be sourdough by any means.  Most sourdough
starter kits have packages of yeast, but it is yeast that makes sourdough,
not regular bread yeast.  If you start a Herman with regular yeast, it will
simply take a long time to become sourdough starter - as long as it takes
to allow the yeast to be replaced by wild yeasts.  

You probably would do better to "drop back and punt" - dispose of Herman and
get a sourdough starter kit.

    It is with interest that I am following this particular note. I 
    am about to start baking my own bread.
    
    Because English is not my native tongue, I didn't understand two 
    terms frequently used in this particular note:
    
	PROOFING a sourdough and
	SPONGING it.
    
    Could somebody, please, explain in plain English what was meant by 
    those activities?
    
    Thanks in advance
    Reinhard

    In any bread baking with yeast, proofing refers to the process of
    feeding the yeast a little something to make sure it's still alive and
    kicking before you begin to bake with it. You take the yeast, a little
    bit of warm water, and a little bit of sugar and let them sit for five
    minutes or so. If the yeast is okay, you should get a nice frothy head
    of bubbles on the water.
    
    A sponge is just a way to increase the yeast in a given dough recipe;
    you make it by combining all of your liquid ingredients (except eggs,
    if the recipe calls for them), yeast, sweeteners, and a small (usually
    one cup) amount of flour. Then you let this sit for several hours (or
    overnight); the yeast bubbles away happily in this soup, and when you
    continue with the breadmaking process you end up with a lighter (and
    some people swear tastier) loaf.
    
    Hope this helps; if I've mangled either of these explanations, feel
    free to chip in with corrections....
    
    	/Harry

    FLUKES::SUTTON, thanks for the explanation on proofing and sponging.
    I'm still alittle confused though. (I've never made homemade bread,
    so please bear with me).  When you say to take the yeast (proofing),
    a little warm water and sugar and let them sit, I don't understand.
    Do you mix the water and sugar, brush it on, or what?
    
    Also, I want to try Herman, is there a recipe for making him into
    a sourdough loaf or rolls??  I'm still a little foggy on the 
    sponging technique, but maybe if I see a recipe, I won't be.
    
    Thanks for the help!!!!
    
    Angie

RE: .30

Proving (meaning "prove" in the sense of "to test") or "proofing" yeast is
a very simple concept.  The point is to make sure that the yeast spores are
still alive before you mix up your dough.  You dissolve a little sugar in
a small amount of warm (not hot!) water, add a small amount of the yeast
you are trying to test, and wait about 5 minutes.  If the yeast is still alive,
it will come out of spore form and start actively growing.  If this happens,
you should see bubbles of carbon dioxide as the yeast cells metabolize the
sugar.  If the yeast is dead, and therefore unusable, you won't get any
bubbles.

--PSW

If you remembered how much sugar and water you used in the proving process,
and how much yeast you put in to be proved, you can dump that into your
recipe in place of a like amount of water, sugar, and yeast that the recipe
originally calls for.  Otherwise just dump it out and measure out what
the recipe calls for (for example, if your recipe doesn't call for sugar,
you wouldn't want to use the proving liquid, since it has sugar in it).

--PSW

more on the "sponge":

the sponge is made with just enough flour stirred into the liquids and yeast
to make a thick, very sticky, stirrable dough.  The sponge is then allowed to
rise and is then stirred down....this purpose of this is to encourage the
"gluten" in the flour; this is what makes the dough elastic, and what makes
the nice finished texture of yeast risen breads.

    re: .34
    
    Yes, sponging does all of that. But another, and more essential
    purpose, it to increase the size of your colony.
    
    When working with sourdough, you essentially are managing a farm.
    The livestock on your farm are yeasts of a certain variety, and
    your object is to raise them, keep them happy, and then slaughter
    them for harvest, all the while keeping aside a breeding stock to
    raise the next crop.
    
    You've got an existing colony (or "flock", in this parable) of two
    cups of nice, well-bred yeast. They are not cold. They are not
    starving. They're happy. But you wish to prepare a receipe that calls
    for two cups of starter. This will wipe out your farm unless you
    actively engage in raising a larger crop. So you add milk, and flour,
    and sugar, two additional cups of volume, making four in total.
    You mix the new with the old. You give them a warm day to expand into
    the new pastureland, breed new lambs, to be fruitful and multiply.
    Yeast are very obliging in this respect. They are fruitful like
    nobody's business. In eight to ten hours, the yeast will have fully
    occupied the new pastureland. Now, divide the herd in halves, kill
    half (using a very tiny sledgehammer) and bake it into your receipe.
    The other half stays as a starter for the next time you need it.
    After a week, the starter will begin to starve, so you resurrect it
    by feeding it more flour and milk, and giving it some time in thw
    (the) warm.
    
    My father was a baker par excellance, and he never refrigerated his
    starter - never! He gave it a cool place of it's own, but too much
    cold will cause your yeasts to encapsulate (grow a protective coat),
    and then it will be difficult and time consuming to bring them back
    to activity.
    
    - M, speaking with his father's voice from beyond the grave
    

    I tried the HERMAN cinnamon rolls.  They were great!!!  I fixed them
    for breakfast, but I made them the night before, and just reheated
    and glazed them in the morning.  Now for my question.  I would like
    to fix these "fresh" in the mornings for breakfast.  Is there anyplace
    in the recipe I could break up the process.  What would happen if I
    cut them up, and let them rise overnight before baking them?  Would
    I have mammoth cinnamon rolls? Or would they be all right.  I'm 
    giving a brunch next month and would like these to be hot on Saturday
    morning, but won't have the time to do the entire preparation in the
    morning.  Anybody have any experience with this?
    
    Angie

    Let them rise in the refrigerator overnight.  Better try this first;
    I've never done it with sourdough breads, but it works fine for normal
    yeast rolls and coffee cakes.  It's the only way to make croissants.
    
    /Charlotte

    I made this many years ago and I'm thinking of getting started again
    since the fall is not that far away (I'm sorry I mentioned it). 
    However I seem to remeber not adding more flour and such every 5 days
    but after mixing up a dough, taking 1/4 cup of it and putting it back
    into the starter jar.  This is what give uniqueness to your own
    sourdough.  It's also what get's done in San Francisco I think and
    that's why the flavor can never be duplicated.
    
    I used to make wine (happily sober now because of it) and was well on 
    my way to building a still but got worried about blowing up the joint 
    while I was drinking my wine and operating the still at the same time 
    but a thought occurs about the yeast that I used.
    
    You can buy all kinds of yeast for wines, like champagne yeast and
    there are many other kinds, also yeast used for beer.  I think I might
    stop off at the "little old winemaker" in Framingham and pick up some
    yeast and try it out.  That is if he's still in business, who knows he
    nmight have blown himself up.
    
    
    This would certainly give the starter a uniqueness of it's own, might
    make for some very interesting flavors, like Champagne Wheat Bread.
    
    

    Can any sourdough starter be used in any sourdough recipe? 
    
    I ask because I was given some starter this past weekend, and the
    instructions say to take out a cup every week and make two loaves
    of bread. I don't want to be held hostage to making two loaves
    of the same kind of bread every week. (My husband suggested I
    dump a cup in the compost pile every week to see what happens.) 
    I'd like to try some of the other recipes here.
     
    The starter I have is based on potatoes. 
    
    Thanks,
    
    kate
     

>>>    Can any sourdough starter be used in any sourdough recipe? 
    
any mixture of flours may be used to create sourdough bread - you can also
add nuts, fruits, sugars, etc. to increase variety.  The sourdough starter
is simply a replacement for the yeast normally used....so, a simply adjustment
to the moisture content to compensate for the moisture of the starter is
all that is required.

A newsgroup on usenet devoted to sourdough!:

Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Sourdough mailing list FAQ
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 03:54:13 GMT
Lines: 644
 
Here is the FAQ for the sourdough mailing list.  I thought I would post it
as a proposed FAQ for the group and to perhaps start up some discussions.
This will need a little work to get it into the jik approved style for
FAQs, any thoughts?
 
 
Author/Maintainer:  [email protected]  (David Adams)
 
____________________________FAQ.cultures______________________________________
 
 
	Davids's rules for handling sourdough culture:
 
I learned *everything* I know about sourdough from the book by Dr. Ed
Wood, "Sourdoughs from Antiquity", mentioned by Darin Wilkins below.
As he points out the book comes with a free start of your choice.  I
highly recomend this book.
 
Rules:
 
	#1.	Start with good breeding stock.  
		The little critters (wild yeasts and lactobacilli)
		come in thousands of strains, millions of comb-
		inations.  Most of these are good for nothing.
		If you want a quality start, get one from some-
		one who makes good sourdough bread, or mail-order
		from one of the sources mentioned below.  I highly
		recomend Dr. Wood's Sourdoughs International.
 
	#2.	Get a good book on sourdough.  I felt that Dr.
		Woods, "Sourdoughs from Antiquity" was a wealth
		of information on the subject.  Downside:  It
		was printed on real poor quality paper.
 
	#3.	Never feed your culture anything but flour and
		warm water.  That is what the little critters eat.
 
	#4.	Don't let the culture get too hot.  
		Heat will kill the culture.  When you do a proof
		keep the temperature between 85 and 90 deg. F.
		Don't add water which is warmer than 100 deg. F.
 
	#5.	When proofing keep the culture warm.  Between 
		85 and 90 deg F.  When the culture is exposed
		to adverse conditions; when it gets too cold,
		or it dries out, the yeast and lactobacilli 
		create spores and then die.
 
		Get a good thermomoter!  Try the University
		Chemistry Store in your area.
 
	#6.	Get to know your culture.  Does it rise extra fast
		or is it slow.  If you let it go too long is it
		too sour to eat, or does the flavor get better.
		These things vary by strain.  Experiment!
 
	#7.	Keep your start in a GLASS jar.  Glass cleans
		easily.  A wide mouth quart jar is recomeneded.
 
	#8.	When making any sourdough recipe the first step
		is preparing the culture.  Take the culture out 
		of the fridge.  Add 1/2 cup warm water, and 1/2 cup 
		flour.  Stir it up good.  Let the culture grow 
		for several hours.  Time required depends on the 
		particular culture.  My culture needs 1 to 3 hours.  
		Others may need 6 to 12.  When you see the bubbles 
		foam up on top thickly it is ready.  See rules #4
		and #5.
	
	#9	When the culture is prepared, you need to grow more.
		Pour the start with a bunch of flour and water into
		a large mixing bowl.  The amount of flour and water
		will depend on the recipe.  Many recipes call for 
		3 cups of white flour and two cups of warm water
		at this stage.  Mix it up good, but lumps are ok;
		the culture will smooth them out.  Proof for many
		hours.  My culture requires 4 to 6 hours, others
		require 12.
 
	#10	After rule #9, REMEMBER TO SET ONE CUP OF THE CULTURE
		ASSIDE FOR FUTURE USE.
 
	#11	Before returning the culture to the jar, wash the
		jar out thouroughly with hot water.  You don't 
		want anything growing in the jar but the culture
		which you are returning.  
 
	#12	The rest of the culture grown in rule #9 is for use
		in your recipe.  Now you are free to add other 
		ingredients.
 
	#13	If you are going to use the culture again right
		away and not put it back in the fridge, you can 
		skip rule #8.  Otherwise add 1/2 cup of flour and
		1/2 cup of warm water, proof it for 1 hour, and 
		then put it in the fridge.  As the temperature
		goes down the yeast and lactobacilli will form
		spores and the culture will store this way for
		at least a month, maybe two.
 
	#14	If more than a month or two go by and you haven't
		done any sourdough cooking then refresh your culture
		by repeating step #8.  Pour off the extra or give
		it to a friend.  (So you have about one cup left.)
		Repeat step #13.  When you first take the culture 
		out of the fridge after a long stay, it will have
		some liquids on top.  These consist of some alcohols
		and mild organic acids made by the yeasts and lactobacilli,
		and are responsible for the sourdough flavor.  Stir them 
		in and procede as above.
 
	#15	For long term culture storage, store your culture
		in dried powder form.  Ed Woods book doesn't tell
		you how to do this right out, but I sort of discovered
		it on my own.  Actually I believe it is an old trick.
		
		Spread a three foot long section of wax paper on the 
		Table WAX SIDE UP.  Smear one tablespoon of fresh
		culture (from step #8, 9, or 14) around evenly and 
		thinly over the surface of the wax paper.   Let it 
		dry overnight, and then scrape the dry flakes into
		a bowl and crunch them (Mortal & pestle style) into
		small pieces.  Put the powder into a labeled zip lock
		bag and press the air out.  
 
		The culture forms spores when it starts to dry out.
		The culture will store in a zip lock bag at normal
		temperatures like this for 6 months.  It will store
		even longer in the frezer.  
 
		I find that a zip-lock bag is very convenient way to
		carry a culture when traveling or moving.  Make sure
		the bag is labled and don't flaunt those little bags
		of white powder!
 
		I find it convenient to do several sheets of wax paper
		at once.  Then when friends ask for a start I spoon
		two teaspoons into a new bag, and carry it to work,
		or where ever I will see them next.
 
		Another reason I find this convenient is that if you
		own several different cultures, they don't all have
		to occupy a bottle in the fridge at once.
 
		And it is fairly easy to include a small zip-lock
		with a teaspoon or two of start in a letter.  An
		easy way to share starts.
 
 
	#16	Dr. Wood recomends the following steps for activating
		dried sourdough cultures:
 
		Mix a couple of teaspoons of the dried powder with 
		1/2 cup of water at 95 to 100 deg F.  Mix briefly and
		let stand for 15 min.  Add 1/3 cup of white bread
		flour, mix well and proof for 24 hours at 85 deg. F.
		(My start needs 12 hours.)  "The jar lid should
		not be tightened.  During the first 12 hours the 
		culture should be stirred once or twice as convenient.
 
		"At the end of 24 hours the culture should start to 
		bubble but the time varies depending on which culture
		is to be activated.  Regardless, add an additional
		1/2 cup of 85 deg. F. water and 1/2 cup of flour.  
		Then stir vigorously to whip some air into the mixture.
		Return it to your warm place for 12 hours.  When
		the culture has a layer of foamy bubbles on the 
		surface, it is ready to use.
 
		Some of the cultures will fully activate in 24-48
		hours, but some may require 3 to 5 days.  During
		this time, keep the culture at 85 deg. F., add
		water and flour at about 12 hour intervals and stir
		briskly."  (Copied by permission from information 
		sheet sent with culture sample from Sourdoughs 
		International.)
	
 
Here is the recipe I used for my bread.
(Copied by permission from Ed. Wood's book "Sourdoughs from Antiquity.", 
p. 38 & 39)
 
I will add my own comments with "dca>"
 
STEP I:  CULTURE PREPARATION
 
	1)	Remove the culture from the refigerator
 
	2)	Add 1/2 cup of white flour and 1/2 cup warm water
		to the culture jar and mix briefly.  The total mixture
		will be about 2 1/4 cups.  It need not be lump free.
 
	3)	Proof at 85 deg. F. for 6 to 12 hours until actively 
		fermenting (as shown by bubbles on the surface).
 
dca>	The Russian Culture requires about 2 or 3 hours to reach this
	stage if the correct temperature is maintained.  Time depends
	mostly on how many spores remain in culture at time of use.
 
STEP II:  THE FIRST PROOF
 
	1)	Mix all of the active culture with 3 cups of white
		flour and 2 cups of warm water in a 4 quart mixing
		bowl.  It need not be lump free.
 
	2)	Proof at 85 deg. F. for 12 hours.
 
dca>	The Russian culture requires only 6 hours at this stage.
 
	3)	RETURN 1 cup of culture to the culture jar.
		Add 1/3 cup of white flour and 1/3 cup of warm water
		and proof at 85 deg. F. for one hour.  Then refrigerate
		immediately.
 
STEP III:  THE SECOND PROOF
 
	REMEMBER TO REFRIGERATE one cup of culture from the first proof 
	before proceeding.
 
	INGREDIENTS
 
	4 cups culture from the first proof
dca> (if I have more I use it all.)
	2 tablespoons butter
	1 cup milk
	2 teaspoons salt
	2 tablespoons sugar
	6 cups white flour
 
 
	1)	Melt the butter over moderate heat (or heat in 
		the microwave), add the milk to the butter, warm
		briefly, add the salt and sugar, and stir until dis-
		solved.  Add this mixture to the culture and mix well.
 
	2)	Add the flour a cup at a time until dough is too
		stiff to mix by hand.  Then turn onto a floured 
		board and knead in remaining flour until the dough
		is smooth and satiny.
 
dca>	I knead about 15 min by hand.
 
	3)	Divide dough in half and form two balls.
	
	4)	Pat each ball into a one inch thick oval and 
		form loaves by rolling from the long side, pinching
		the seam together as you roll the dough to form 
		the loaf.
 
dca>	I often put a flattened ball of dough in the Dutch oven.
 
	5)	Place in greased loaf pans and proof at 85 deg. F.
		for 1 1/2 to 3 hours.  When the dough rises 1 to 2
		inches above lip of pan, it is ready to bake.
 
dca>	It helps if the dough can rise in a very humid place.  When
	I am baking in the regular oven, I put the dough in a camping
	cooler with a bucket of hot water.  This keeps the dough warm
	and humid.  Problem:  I have to stack the pans.  If the dough
	rises above the lip, it hits the next pan and ruins the texture.
	This is why I want to build a new proofing box.
 
dca>	If you use so much dough that it rises above the lip of the 
	Dutch oven, then you have trouble.  Takes experience to know
	how much dough to use.  This recipe can make 3 loaves for 
	a 10" dutch oven, or one 10" and one 12".  If it isn't quite
	warm enough, I place one or two coals on the lid of the dutch
	oven to let the bread rise.
 
	6) 	Preheat the oven to 375 deg. F.  Ten minutes after 
		putting the bread in, reduce heat to 350 deg. F. and
		bake an additional 45 minutes.
 
dca>	I find this to be too long.  Watch out!
 
dca>	Elsewhere in the book Ed. Wood recomends putting a tray of 
	water in the oven for the first 10 minutes.  This is supposed
	to improve the crust and give it a French bread texture.  You 
	see if it works.  
		
dca>	For the Dutch oven I put 4 coals on the bottom of a 10" oven
	and 9 on the top.  I cook it for about 35 minutes.  I use 
	5 coals on the bottom and 11 on the top for the 12" oven.
	If it is very cold outside, it may take more time, and you
	probabably need more coals.  I baked bread in -20 deg. F.
	weather in January once.
 
	7)	When the bread is removed from the oven, 
		brush crusts lightly with melted butter.  Turn out of
		pans and cool on a wire rack.
 
dca>	When using the dutch oven, I just turn the oven over and the 
	bread falls out onto the wire rack.  My kids call it circle
	bread.
 
 
		David's Wheat and Rye Bread.
 
I will pick up the recipe assuming you start with 4 cups of culture
from the first proof of the Russian starter.  (Since all the 
recipies begin the same way.)  I doubled the recipe; the one I 
modified this from started with 2 cups of culture.
 
 
		Ingredients
 
		4 cups culture from the first proof
		2 tablespoons dark molasses
		2 tablespoons honey
		1 cup milk  (I am going to try using water sometime)
		2 teaspoons ground coriander
		2 teaspoons salt
		3-4 cups finely milled rye flour
		3-4 cups finely milled whole wheat flour
		(The total here should be between 7-8 cups.)
 
	Note:  The recipe I modified called for 2 cups rye 2 cups wheat
	and 3 cups white.  I use the K-TEC kitchen mill and mill my
	own flour from grain.  I have recommendations on buying grain
	if you are interested.  I can also pass on information about
	K-TEC.  ( K-TEC has a toll free number  1-800-748-5400.)
 
	Note 2:  The recipe I modified called for 4 tablespoons of
	vegetable oil.  I omited it and I liked the results.
 
Directions:
 
1.	Warm the milk to lukewarm
2.	Add Milk, molasses, honey, salt and coriander to the culture
	in a large mixing bowl and mix briefly.
3.	Add most of the flour and mix well.  Add flour until too stiff
	to mix by hand.  Then turn onto a floured table and knead in
	the remaining flour until satiny.  (I knead about 15 min.)
4.	I have made loaves in regular bread pans and also laid loaves
	on a greased baking sheet.  If you use the baking sheet I think
	the loaf needs to be stiffer.  Proof at 85 deg F for 2 or 3
	hours.
5.	Bake at 350 deg. F. for about 40 minutes.  Cool on a wire rack.
6.	I find that the slicing properties improve after the bread has
	a chance to sit and gel for a day or two.  I slice the bread
	very thinly, about 3/16 of an inch thick.  The bread could
	be sliced thinner but my shaky hands can't manage it. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
>From: [email protected] (Darin Wilkins)
 
 
Recently a local newspaper's food section had an article about sourdough
bread starters that might be of general interest.  My summary follows:
 
In the mid 80's a pathologist, Dr. Ed Wood, held a position in Saudi
Arabia.  Wood is an avid bread maker and, realizing he was in the
birthplace of bread, explored local bakeries in his spare time.  In
particular, he searched for sourdough cultures that had been passed
down from the beginning of civilization.  He persuaded local bakers to
part with some of their historical starters and took them home to
Cascade, Idaho.  There he dried the starters to a form that allows them
to be reconstituted with the addition of warm water and flour.  He also
subjected sourdough starters from other parts of the world to the same
treatment.  His collection now includes bread starters from 8 regions:
the Yukon, San Francisco, France, Austria, Egypt, Bahrain, Saudi
Arabia, and Russia.
 
Each starter imparts a unique flavor or texture to bread.  French
sourdough is mild, but rises well.  Bahrain sourdough is one of the
most sour, while Yukon sourdough is moderately sour.  He says the Saudi
sourdough has the most distinctive flavor and the most overrated is
from San Francisco (!).  He calls the Russian starter his most
aggressive starter, able to handle heavy doughs.
 
He has started a business selling the starters, which may be ordered by
credit card at 208-382-4828.  They cost US $10.50 each.  Also, they can be 
ordered by sending check or money order to:
 
                   Sourdoughs International
                   PO Box 1440
                   Cascade, ID 83611.
 
In addition Wood wrote a cookbook, _World Sourdoughs From Antiquity_
(Sinclair Publishing, $23.50), which includes 137 recipes for sourdough
baked goods.  The book, which comes with a free starter of your choice, 
may be ordered with a credit card at 800-888-9567.  (or at the previous
number.  This is the number for Sinclair Publishing.  The previous number
is the number for Sourdoughs International.)  
 
<David Adams inserts the note:
The prices mentioned here are new.  They now include shipping and handeling
for U.S. customers.  (The $23.50 for the book includes shipping &handeling
4th class postage.  The $10.50 for the cultures includes shipping & handeling
priority mail.  I got my book and first culture in two days.)  Shipping and
haneling for non U.S. customers may be slightly higher.>
 
 
Insert standard disclaimer here.
 
The article included Wood's recipe for a Saudi flat bread that resembles
a thin crust pizza.  The recipe calls for Wood's Saudi starter, but you
may substitute any unsweetened sourdough starter.
 
Seasoned Flat Bread (makes 6 flat breads)
 
2 C unsweetened sourdough starter
1 1/2 tsp salt
1 Tbl sugar
2 Tbl vegetable oil
2 1/2 C all-purpose flour, or as needed
olive oil
 
Add salt, sugar and vegetable oil to starter.  Mix thoroughly.
Incorporate flour slowly into mixture until stiff.  Turn onto floured
board and knead in additional flour as necessary until dough is satiny.
 
Divide dough into 6 equal parts and shape into balls.  Flatten by hand
and place on a lightly floured cloth.  Cover and let rise 30 min.
 
Two cooking methods are offered:
 
1.  Preheat oven to 500 F.
    Transfer breads to a baking sheet or stone.  Brush with olive
    oil.  Top with sliced mozzarella cheese, tomato slices, or other
    vegetables.  Bake 10 min or until bread is browned and cheese
    is bubbling.
 
2.  Brush the bread with olive oil, season with herbs, and cook
    on a preheated griddle.
 
 
 
 
 
From: [email protected] (Tony Rossini)
 
So here is the first "recipe".  It is probably better suited for those
who've made bread before:
 
Dump out 1 cup starter (or more, if you've got it and want more) into a
mixing bowl.  Add enough flour so that the mixture is thick and *soupy*; you
don't want it to congeal into a lump.  If you added too much flour, mix in a
little bit of water, trickling it in SLOWLY.  
 
This is the sponge, let it sit for about 24 hours.
 
Dump in salt to your liking (I think 1 tbsp is fine, more/less depending on
personal opinions).  While stirring, slowly add flour until it pulls away
from the sides.  At this point, flour a counter (make a mess!) and dump it
out and knead.  Many ways to knead, many books with advice. 99% of the
methods work, so I'll not go into mine.  After 5-10 minutes of kneading, or
until it feels right (at this point it is like making regular bread!), form
the dough into a circle, oil it, and put it into a clean bowl (maybe the
same one) to rise.  This will take 4-5 hours (starter is a pretty slow
yeast, at least the strain I've got).  Punch down, knead a bit, let rest for
10 minutes, and form loaves or put into a bread pan.  I've found that
oiling/buttering/whatever even the non-stick types really will make a
difference.  Cook for 10-30 minutes, or until it looks good.  Or until you
can't wait (I've never minded eating "rare" bread dough!). 
 
Cool (or not), and eat.
 
Yum.
 
I'm sorry that I don't have any recipes for making starter; that seems to be
a touch and go process...
 
enjoy!
-tony
--
Anthony Rossini       -       [email protected]
Department of Biostatistics, Harvard School of Public Health
677 Huntington Ave, Boston MA 02115  617-432-1056
 
 
 
To make a tangy sourdough bread, you have to let it sit for a long time.
When I made some sourdough French bread, a couple of weeks ago, I
started the dough early in the morning, adding most of the flour and all
the water it was going to need.  By the time it went into the oven, it
was pleasantly tangy.  If I had wanted even more flavour, I would have
started it the night before.  The longer it sits, the more flavor it
will gain.
 
Sourdough French Bread  (adapted from the Sourdough Jack's Cookbook)
 
1 cup sourdough starter         2 t sugar
1 1/2 c warm water              2 t salt
1 package yeast                 1/2 t soda
4 c flour                       2 c flour (for kneading)
 
If you are going to start this bread the evening before or early in the
morning, you won't need the extra yeast.  If you start it 3 hours before
dinner, you will need it.  Put the starter, water, and flour in a bowl.
Put this in a warm place and ignore it for the rest of the day.  By
evening, it should have doubled and smell like your starter again.  Mix
the sugar, salt, soda and 1 cup of flour together.  Sprinkle them over
the dough, and mix well.  Turn the dough out onto your bread board and
knead it, using the remaining flour.  
 
Shape loaves and place them on lightly greased cookie sheets.  Let rise
until doubled in bulk, slash tops of loaves, brush them with water or a
well-beaten egg, and place in 400 F oven.  (A pan of water on lower
shelf of the oven can help make a crispy crust.)  Bake until medium dark
brown.
 
Lynn
 
>From: [email protected] (Phil OKunewick)
 
 
Someone else wrote:
 
>>But more to the point: how do you post a starter recipe?...
>
>        So what you're saying is that this ever-so-special culture has to
>be obtained from some Merlin-like individual, and cannot be "started" by
>combining the ingredients in a RECIPE and letting the microbes take it from
>there?
 
   GOLDRUSH Sourdough says that people can mix potato water or milk
with flour, then let it stand for several days.  After that, discard
the mixture, because that foul-smelling swamp muck is nothing you
would want in your kitchen, much less in your bread dough.
 
   But seriously, contact:
 
GOLDRUSH ENTERPRISES
122 E. Grand Ave
SO. San Fransisco, CA 94080
 
   They sell supplies, cookbooks, and dry yeast "seed" packets waiting
to be made into an active yeast culture.  It's not the best sourdough
I've ever tasted, but it's the best I've tasted east of the Sierra
Nevadas.  I think I read somewhere that it's descended from beer
yeast.
 
   I recommend ordering the Junior Baking Kit (around $8 in 1986) and
the book, "Adventures in Sourdough Cooking and Baking" ($8).  A
sourdough packet, which is the Junior kit without the storage pot,
costs around $2.25.
 
   These prices were at Knotts Berry Farm over the past few years;
your mileage may vary.
 
   You might also ask around your friends.  You'll be amazed how many
people keep a yeast culture in the back of their refrigerator.
 
 
Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Goldrush; I simply bought my
starter from them and have been happy with it ever since.
 
>From: [email protected] (Phil OKunewick)
>Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking
>Subject: Re: Sourdough Starter
 
 
[email protected] (Joe Kiniry) writes:
>
>Earlier I asked for someone to give me the ingredients for a Sourdough
>Starter, but I was told the only way to do it is to buy it.  Snooping
>around I found this in _Rival Crock-Pot Cooking_:
>
>Sourdough Starter               
>1 package active dry yeast...
>
>Did anyone ever try to do this starter?  Any comments anyone?
 
   I've never tried a recipie like this, but it sounds like you're
making an active wet culture of the same yeast you get in the packets.
It'd be fine for bread making, but I don't think you'll get the really
tangy flavor characteristic of sourdough.
 
   But since it's exposed to air, you'll get other nasties in there
besides the descendants of the dry yeast.  Hopefully you'll get more
tasty nasties than putrid ones, which makes for good bread.
 
   You can recognize a good culture by the smell - if the culture
smells good, the bread will taste good.  The bad nasties often don't
breed as fast as the good nasties, so even if the culture smells bad
the bread might come out good.  Baking the bread should be enough to
kill all the nasties, so you don't wind up proofing more starter in
your gut.
 
   BTW - IDEAL PROOFING FOR A STARTER BATCH: Proof it on top of your
refrigerator, at 85 degrees.  95 degrees or more will probably kill
it; be patient.  If you are happy with previous loaves made from this
culture, cover the bowl with plastic wrap to keep out other nasties.
Normal proofing time for a lively culture is around 8 hours, but this
can vary - a _lot_.  A sudsy foam will form on top after several hours
(or a couple days); soon as the foam starts to settle down, the
starter is ready.  If you don't get the foam after about 4 days, throw
away all but one cup and try again.
 
   Once your culture is going nicely, feed it only flour and water
(preferrably distilled).  Anything else may kill it.  You can add
other stuff to your bread mix after returning a cup of starter to your
storage container.
 
 
>From: [email protected] (Dick Dunn)
>Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking
>Subject: Re: Sourdough  (ya gotta have culchah)
 
 
  [The problems of a starter recipe, given that sourdough really wants a
  culture of particular yeast and particular bacteria]
 
>         So what you're saying is that this ever-so-special culture has to
> be obtained from some Merlin-like individual, and cannot be "started" by
> combining the ingredients in a RECIPE and letting the microbes take it from
> there?
 
Where do the microbes come from???  The rest of the "recipe" is trivial--
all you really need is flour and water.  It's the particular yeast and
bacteria that will give you a good sourdough _versus_ a nondescript,
slightly-sour yeast culture _versus_ a means for rotting wet flour.
 
Maybe you've got the right stuff in the air where you are; maybe not.  If
so, it's trivial; if not, a recipe won't help.
-- 
Dick Dunn     [email protected] -or- ico!rcd       Boulder, CO   (303)449-2870
   ...If you plant ice, you're gonna harvest wind.
 
--------------
 
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
Boy, that was a lot longer than I remembered...
 
jim
-- 
------------------------------< Jim McCoy >------------------------------------
[email protected]                     |  "I'd love to stay and chat, but I'm
[email protected]                   |   having an old friend for dinner..."
#include <disclaimer.h>             |              -Dr. Hannibal Lector
-----------------------<"To thine own self be true">--------------------------

    Has anyone tried making sour dough bread in a bread making machine
    WITHOUT using any added yeast?
    
    Thanks
    Debby

    OK, I bit.  I started my Herman last night and thought of a couple of
    questions that don't seem to be in here.  
    
    Does it matter what time in the cycle you use Herman?  Ie. if I use
    him in the middle of the cycle (when I'm still stirring him rather
    than feeding him, or having just fed him) will it make a difference
    in the results?
    
    If I do use him in the middle of the feeding cycle, should I still 
    reserve one cup and feed it again as if it was day 1 or 5?  (Even if
    he just got fed the day before - or should I simply give him a teaspoon
    or so (as one of these notes suggested) to tide him over until the true
    feeding day?
    
    It sure grew a lot overnight and boy did he smell nasty this morning.
    I left him on the counter overnight as one note suggested and he
    smelled awfully amonia"y" this morning, so I guess it's working so 
    far. :-)
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    Caroline B.
    

    After reading the string and the friendship bread string, it sounds
    like the best way to start this is with a already started started, or a 
    packet of starter.  Does anyone out there know of a place in the
    Worcester/Westboro/Northboro area know of a shop where I could get a
    starter packet, or a mail order source?
    
    Thanks-
    
    	Michele

    William Sonoma carries sour dough starter packets. (They also have a
    mail order catalog, but I don't have the phone number). The only
    William Sonoma shop I know is in Faneuil Hall.
    
    

    King Arthur Flour also offers an excellent sourdough starter; I have
    a catalog at home and will post the number here tomorrow if I remember
    to bring it in.
    
    I'm sure the number's here in the file somewhere if you try searching
    on something like "King Arthur".
    
    	/Harry

    re: .43 & .44
    
    Thanks for the leads, but I can't find reference to either for
    the catalogue.
    

I have a copy of both catalogs in my office:

1.	Williams Sonoma
	Mail Order Department
	P.O. Box 7456
	San Francisco, CA  94120-7456
	1-800-541-2233


2.	King Arthur Flour Baker's Catalogue
	Rural Route 2, Box 56
	Norwich, VT  05055
	1-800-827-6836

    
    
    thank you very much.
    
    i used to get both, but between getting married and moving twice, 
    they never caught up with me again.

As for local places, you might try Concord Spice & Grain in Concord, MA, or Duck
Soup in Sudbury, MA.  I would call first and ask.

    re .43, William Sonoma is also located in the Burlington Mall.
    
    Regards,
    Jim