Conference turris::cooks

>>>Do you use real or imitation vanilla extract?  Is the
>>>real vanilla extract worth the difference in price?
>>>Can you taste a difference in baked items?  non-baked
>>>items (such as frostings)?

I use not just real vanilla, but real Bourbon Vanilla, in my baking.  I can
taste the difference.  The imitation vanilla is harsher in flavor which can
give frostings a very ugly after taste on the tongue (IMO)..and the difference
is baked goods is also very apparent.  In most cases, when you use vanilla,
you are dealing with very delicate flavors - it is easy to throw them off.
The better your vanilla flavoring, the better the flavor of the finished
product.  Don't ever make tapioca or plain custard w/o real vanilla - it
will taste "off" if you use the imitation stuff.

The brand I like the best is "Cooks"...and, yep, it is much more expensive.
However, you don't use very much at a time, so it lasts for a little while.

    See the March issue of Better Homes and Gardens for a discussion on the
    different types of vanilla flavoring.  The article outlines the vanilla
    bean, real vanilla extract, imitation vanilla extract, and Mexican (?)
    vanilla.
    
    Cara
    
    PS.  I use real vanilla extract......
    

    If the cost scares you, you might try Spag's for real vanilla. 
    They have it at the lowest price around.  I've never heard of 
    Bourbon Vanilla.  I'll have to check this one out!!!
    

>>>    Bourbon Vanilla.  I'll have to check this one out!!!
    
Most of your "foodie" markets (often called yuppie markets - but that's a
misnomer as some of us that go there are not old/young enough to be yups)
will carry "bourbon vanilla" - a very mellow form of the flavoring.  It is
made using bourbon and vanilla beans.  I highly recommend the "double strength"
version.  If you like bourbon yourself, you can, of course, make your own
by slitting several (6 - 8) beans and putting the beans and seeds into 
1 cup of very good bourbon.  Seal and store in a cool, dark place for
at least a month.  

BTW: Cook's also makes a powdered real vanilla which can be used in white
cakes to keep them white..great for baking birthday cake layers, and making
angel food cake.  The powder is completely white so it doesn't taint the
cake color at all.

  For recipes in which vanilla isn't a critical flavor (such as many
  chocolate recipes, Irish coffee, whipped cream, etc), we use
  McCormick's real vanilla extract, or any other easy to find commercial
  real extract. For recipes which really depend on the vanilla flavor
  (such as pastry creams, ice cream, etc), we use whole vanilla beans
  (just picked up a pile for 99 cents each at Spag's).

  We don't use vanillin in any recipes, as it's just too easy to
  identify as an artificial flavor. I suspect that the reason is that
  real vanilla contains many other flavors aside from the vanillin
  flavor, and when these are missing, the result tastes artificially
  flavored.

    I use real vanilla extract (not bourbon, though) - my crew can tell the
    difference.
    
    /Charlotte

  At the New England Home Show, I was talking with a woman at the Watkins (?)
Spices table.  She was trying to get me to buy a bottle of their "Imitation
Vanilla".  When I inquired about it being imitation, she said that their vanilla
is labeled as imitation only because they add a couple of ingredients which
disallow it from being labeled as pure.  I don't recall which ingredients
exactly.  Does anyone have any comments on this?

  She did say that the vanillas that have a lot of alcohol in them aren't
good, because the flavor isn't preserved after baking or freezing.  I had once
bought some Food Club vanilla, and noticed the strong alcoholic smell - and
my husband did declare that it wasn't as good as McCormick's.  Interesting!

--Sharon

    
    RE: .4
    
    Unless you make it yourself using bourbon, "Bourbon Vanilla" has
    nothing to do with the liquor of the same name. The finest vanilla
    beans come from three areas:
    
    	1. Madagascar/Reunion/Comoros Islands  (Reunion was formerly called
    	   Bourbon - hence the name 'Bourbon Vanilla')
    
    	2. Tahiti (the fatter Tahitian beans are less robust, but have more
    	   floral tones)
    
    	3. Mexico (reputed to be the finest, but not enough are produced
    	   for export - and there are no standards for labelling extracts
    	   so beware when buying Mexican products)
    
    I have recently begun making my own vanilla extract by steeping a
    mixture of Madagaskar and Tahitian beans in Cognac.
    

  Re vanilla in alcohol, etc: we've used real vanilla extract in both
  alcohol and water base. When fresh, there doesn't seem to be much
  difference. Neither freezing nor baking has ever resulted in less
  vanilla flavor from alcohol-based extracts. Furthermore, alcohol-based
  extract seems to have a longer shelf life. The water-based extract
  loses potency and even seems to form molds over long periods.

  To be honest, I'm skeptical about claims made by vendors at home shows
  (or anywhere). They often say things which are partially untrue to
  sell their products, and claims about benefits of water-based over
  alcohol-based seem suspicious to me (except for the obvious advantage
  for recovering alcoholics). I prefer to rely on personal experience
  and on information from people who don't have a vested interest in
  selling the product.

    I have been making my own extract for a few years now.  I buy the
    cheapest bottle of Brandy I can find, and then put in 3 or 4 beans. I
    cut the beans into 1" strips and then slit them open. You have to tip
    the bottle every couple of days or so.  It takes about 3 or 4 months to
    start taking on the flavor of the beans.  Sometimes I have had to add
    some beans if it doesn't seem to be turning as much as I want.  Much
    depends on how big your bottle of Brandy is.  I haven't worked it out
    to be an exact science yet.  

    I can tell the difference between real Vanilla extract and the
    imitations, but I cannot tell the difference between my "homemade"
    vanilla and the real Vanilla extract.  I made about $80 of Vanilla
    (based on what the current price of a bottle of real vanilla extract
    was at the store) for about $20.  I just leave the beans in the bottle
    and the longer the beans are in there the better tasting the vanilla
    gets.  The bottle that we are using now is about 1.5 years old.

    We have given this "vanilla" away in Christmas baskets to our friends
    and they all raved about the vanilla.

    Jeff

    There are several kinds of vanilla.  Cooks puts out a new one
    called "Cookie Vanilla" expressly for use in cookie recipes.
    I've used it and it's pretty good, but there's really no difference
    between it and normal Vanilla.
    
    There is also a clear liquid vanilla that won't discolor your white
    frostings and such.
    
    
                                        L.J.

Imitation vanilla is a poor imitation - the essential flavor is
different.  we buy rel vanilla from our food co-op.  Also buy beans
once every so often and keep one in a jar of sugar.  Vanilla sugar is
very useful for sweetining with that extra pizzazz.

-d

Wow!  Much more of a response that I expected.

I raised the question because I use imitation in baked goods and 
"real" (McCormick's) in non-baked goods.  I used the last of the
imitation bottle last week and wondered if I should buy a 
replacement or stick with only the real stuff.

Homemade vanilla extract sounds like a fun thing to try.  Even
if it's a failure, there's the rest of the bottle of cognac to
enjoy. 

Spag's is a great place; thanks for the pointer.  Unfortunately, 
I get out that way every other year or so.  If someone has seen 
the beans for sale anywhere in the Maynard or Nashua area, I'd
appreciate hearing about it to avoid a trip out towards Worcester.

Thanks.
Ann-Marie

  You can buy vanilla beans at Idylwilde Farms in W. Acton, possibly in
  some supermarkets (e.g., Triple-A in Acton) and probably in
  specialty/gourmet stores. You might be able to get it at Int'l Fare or
  one of the kitchen stores at Pheasant Lane. And maybe at Williams-
  Sonoma at Burlington.

Some CVS drugstores have Spice Racks where all of the spices are $0.99.  They
have real vanilla extract there.  I have bought several of their spices and 
think they work fine though my husband has complained about the paprika.

-- Nisha

    This is what the March issue of Better Homes And Gardens had to say
    about Mexican vanilla:
    
    	"When travelling to Mexico or the Caribbean, you may be
    	 tempted to bring back inexpensive bottles labeled pure 
    	 vanilla.  Don't!  The U.S. Food and Drug Administration
    	 warns travelers against using these products.  The 
    	 so-called pure vanilla may contain coumarin, a flavoring
    	 ingredient banned in the United States because of possible
    	 long-term toxic effects."
    
    Cara
    

re: imitation vanilla made from real vanilla beans....

I am tempted to say, "Balderdash!"....if it has vanilla beans in it, it can
be labeled "real vanilla".  A scan of the ingredients of differently priced
vanillas shows there can be other "stabilizers" in real vanilla.  Imitation
vanilla is made from a chemical which is supposedly "vanilla flavored" on
the human tongue...in my opinion, not so.

    Balderdash?
    
    Let's please watch our language here.
    

    McCormick sells vanilla beans.  You get one bean to a bottle for about
    $3.49.  You can find them in virtually any large grocery store in Mass.
    or NH.  I don't know the origin of these beans.
    
    				-David
    

    Before I asked, I looked in my usual grocery store but did not
    see them.  So I incorrectly guessed they were a difficult item 
    to find.  It sounds like I'll have no trouble getting them at
    other stores in the area.

    Thanks again!

    re: .19 -- 
    
    Vanilla beans are the seed pods of a species of orchid.
    
    dave
    

RE: .17

The US Food and Drug Administration has strict rules about what can and cannot
go into foods with particular labels.  The rules for "real vanilla extract" most
likely dictate how much extract (vs. solvent) must be present, which solvents
are allowed (ethanol is allowed; benzene and ether probably aren't), and a
whole bunch of other parameters.  Deviate from any of these and you can't call
your product "real vanilla extract", even if it is made from real vanilla beans.

--PSW

  $3.49 each at a grocery store vs $.99 at Spag's? Incredible. It
  practically pays for the trip to Spag's.

  Speaking of McCormick's....I was disappointed when I discovered that Shaw's
doesn't carry their line....but Alexander's did, so I just had to time my
spice purchases.  But, now Alexander's has dropped McCormick (at least in
Bedford, NH)....  I plan to inquire at the customer service desk next time
I'm there!

  How does Durkee compare to McCormick?  In vanilla, and other areas?

--Sharon

    Marsha Adams, the woman who does the cooking show on Amish cooking,
    said last week that imitation vanilla "cooks out", so you shouldn't use
    it in a recipe that requires cooking.  For frosting, or uncooked items,
    it's probably OK.  The usual disclaimers apply...
    

    
    [From "Vanilla", by Patricia Rain]
    
    Vanilla comes from the fruit of an orchid which is native to tropical
    America.  It is the most labor-intensive agricultural crop in the world
    - from planting the vine to bottling the extract is a five year
    process, and each step of the process is done by hand (including the
    pollination of the flowers!)
    
    Vanilla extract is made by chopping the vanilla beans and placing them
    in a basket in a glass or stainless steel tank.  A mixture of
    water & alcohol is recirulated over the beans until the flavor is
    extracted.  The mixture is then filtered, aged, and bottled.  Some
    manufacturers add sugar to assist the aging process.
    
    According to the standards established by the FDA, "Pure Vanilla
    Extract" must contain 13.35 oz. of vanilla beans to a gallon of 35%
    alcohol.  A 'two-fold' of pure vanilla contains twice as many beans,
    and so on.  To be called a vanilla 'extract', it must contain 35%
    minimum of alcohol.  If less alcohol is used, the product must be
    labeled 'vanilla flavor' or 'vanilla concentrate', or some such.
    
    The most common artificial vanilla flavoring is Vanillin, which is only
    one of the flavoring components found in vanilla beans.  The first
    synthetic vanilla was made by German chemists in 1874 from 'coniferin',
    the glucoside that makes some pine trees smell like vanilla.  In 1891,
    a French chemist, DeTaire, extracted vanillin from 'eugonol', which
    occurs in the oil of cloves.  The current synthetic vanilla is made
    from coal tar or from 'sulphite liquor', a by-product of pulp paper
    making.
    
    A GLOSSARY VANILLA TERMS:
    
    	PURE VANILLA EXTRACT - Made from vanilla beans, water & alcohol. 
    			       May contain sugar.  Must contain at least
    			       35% alcohol.
    
    	VANILLA FLAVOR - A mixture of pure vanilla extract and synthetic
      			 substances, most commonly vanillin.
    
    	NATURAL VANILLA FLAVOR - A mixture of pure vanilla extract and 
    				 other natural substances extracted from
    				 natural sources.
    
    	IMITATION VANILLA - A mixture made from synthetic substances which
    			    imitate the smell and flavor of pure vanilla.
    
    	ARTIFICIAL VANILLIN - An artificial by-product of the paper
    			      industry, chemically treated to ressemble the
    			      taste of pure vanilla.  Used in vanilla
    			      flavor and imitiation vanilla.
    
    	NATURAL VANILLIN - The natural substance found in the vanilla bean,
    			   as well as some conifers and the oil of cloves.
    
    	ETHYL VANILLIN - An ingredient sometimes used in imitation vanilla
    			 which is tree times as trong as artificial
    			 vanillin, and is a coal tar derivative.
    
    	COUMARIN - A derivative of the tonka bean, often used in synthetic
    		   Mexican vanillas.  
    
    
    

    BJ's carries pints of pure vanilla extract made by Tone's for about
    $9+.  Since I've been making LOTS of homemade yogurt falvored with the
    stuff, I buy it there 4 pints at a time.
    
    The latest Williams Sonoma catalog has the following items:
    
    	"Pure Vanilla Extract by Neilsen-Massey uses only Bourbon vanilla
    	beans from Madagascar's Isle de Bourbon..."
    
    			Made in USA.  8 oz.  $10.00
    
    and by the same folks,
    
    	Bourbon Vanilla Beans 6- 8" beans in a vial $10.75

RE .27

Last year I went to a muffin cooking class, and the instructor insisted 
that good vanilla was essential for good baking.  Shortly thereafter I 
switched from my store brand to Neilsen-Massey.  Sometimes I think I can 
detect a difference, but I honestly don't know.

If you get the Williams Sonoma catalogs, watch out for a sale on the 
vanilla.  Every so often it goes on sale and you can get it for $8.50 as I 
did.  It's also a wonderful excuse to go to that wonderful store, if you 
are lucky enough to live near one.

After reading this topic, I'll never say "plain vanilla" again!

You know, a "vanilla system" for an operating system without lots of added on
software.

Or a "vanilla" model of a car - no power steering, no nice stereo,....


Bourbon Vanilla sounds like a fully loaded Mercedes.

-Mary Ann

    A while ago I had iced sugar cookies at a friends and couldn't figure
    out why they TASTED SO GOOOOOOD.   She told me her mother brought back
    pure vanilla from Mexico.  It gave the cookies a wonderful taste (AND
    AROMA!).  It came in huge bottle.
    
    If you can, try some.