Conference turris::cooks

         Just about any food,including all meats can frozen indefinitely
       as long as it is in an air tight package.A SEAL-A-MEAL machine is 
       great for your needs.There are two types that I know about: 1)a 
       regular machine which just seals; 2)the machine that is made to 
       extract air as it seals-this one,while mildly expensive,is made
       for what you've mentioned.They also come in various sizes.Be sure
       to remove the food from anything it may already be wrapped in.
         OH,if you have ever eaten brisket,and it was very good,more than
       likely it had been in an air tight package and allowed to age for
       a year or so.This type of packaging allows meat to age without
       spoiling or getting freezer burn.Also,unless punctured,this type of
       packaging keeps food as fresh as the day it was frozen.
    
                                         Take care,
                                                 Jeff
       
      

         Unfortunately (see note 2860) I cannot afford to buy any kind of
    machine like that.
    
         I was thinking of times when hot-dogs are on sale for 99�, for
    instance.  I'd like to get four or five, but can I freeze them in the
    pack or do I have to take them out?
    
         Sometimes there is lunchmeat (ham, cheese, etc.) on sale; I'd like
    to do the same thing, but again can I freeze the stuff as it comes or
    do I have to repackage it?
    
         Thanks!
    
    					- Andrea

    I don't see any reason why you can't freeze meats in the packages they
    came in, unless you plan to store them for extended periods of time
    (months/years), in which case you might want to repackage them.  We
    don't shop very often, so when we do buy meat, all of it goes into the
    freezer in the original packages (unless I want to do something to it
    first, such as bone or skin chicken), and we just take things out as
    they are needed.  However, we don't keep things in the freezer for more
    than a couple of weeks, so I don't know at what point you have to start
    worrying about freezer burn or other quality-loss issues.
    
    Of course, if you buy something in a HUGE package, you probably want to
    repackage it ito meal-sized portions before freezing it anyhow - we
    don't eat enough meat to dobuy it this way very often, but it is
    usually a lot more convenient to make four small packages of chicken
    thighs than to deal with one enormous one, for example.
    
    /Charlotte (eating tofu for lunch today)

I've discovered the trick to keeping meats edible for long periods of time,
at reasonable expense, is to use the "freezer wrap" saran-type of wrapping
plastic.  I know, it's another environmental hazard, but it does the job
of keeping meats wrapped air-tight.  Wrap meats in one-meal sizes in the
freezer wrap - removing all packaging the meat came in.  Then, place the
wrapped servings in a large plastic freezer bag with a label stating what
meat is inside (and the date).  This will keep for months without freezer
burn if you wrap the meat well (and tightly sealed) in the freezer wrap.
Make sure you get it covered and sealed well, using freezer tape where
necessary.  Simply remove servings from the freezer bag as you need them.
This also allows you to have variety of meals when you buy meats in
bargain packages as you can break them into smaller sizes and freeze them,
using only what you want to eat for one meal at a time.

so, get some freezer wrap, some tape suitable for cold weather, and some
gallon sized plastic freezer bags.  Then, when you do your shopping each
week, wrap and freeze what you won't eat immediately....over time,you can
build up a nice variety of foods in the freezer so you won't get bored to
death with any one thing.

    I've had great success using plain waxed paper.  I wrap individual
    portions of {turkeyburgers,lasagne,whatever} in the waxed paper, and then
    pop the wrapped portions into a reclosable (and reusable!) freezer bag.  
    Never had trouble with freezer burn yet.
    
    Freezing in waxed paper works great for microwaving, too.  Just put the
    wrapped item directly into the microwave.  No need to put it in
    a special covered dish, as the waxed paper keeps moisture in nicely
    during the cooking/reheating.
    
    Freezer paper (waxed on one side, plain on the other) works well for
    meats--my mother still uses it.  Just use sheets of waxed paper to
    separate things; for instance, a stack of hamburgers.
    
    There are less expensive (and environmentally sounder) alternatives to
    plastic wrap--give them a try!
                                  

    If you have the 1 lb size packages of hotdogs, you can keep them
    as is in the freezer for a month or two.  For longer periods, I
    drop them, still in their original wrapping, into 1 quart zip-lock
    freezer bags, press out the air, and seal.  I don't know if that's
    overkill, but...  Anyhow, I wash and reuse zip-lock bags, so the
    environmental hazard and the cost are much less than if I used
    plastic wrap, FWIW.  Of course, there's the cost of washing...sigh.
    
    --L

    
    Here is a list I got from a Cookbook on freezing and frig storing:
    
    					
    					FRIG TIME	FREEZER
    					(days at 40F)	MTHS AT 0 F
    FRESH MEATS
    	Roasts (beef)			3-5		6-12
    	Roasts (lamb)			3-5		6-9
    	Roasts (pork, veal)		3-5		4-8
    	Steaks (beef)			3-5		6-12
    	Chops (lamb)			3-5		6-9
    	Chops (pork)			3-5		3-4
    	Hamburger, ground & stew meat   1-2		3-4
    	Sausage				1-2		1-2
    
    COOKED MEATS
    	Cooked meat and meat dishes	3-4		2-3
    	Gravy and meat broth		1-2		2-3
    
    PROCESSED MEATS
    	Bacon				7		1
    	Frankfurters			7		1-2
    	Ham (whole)			7		1-2
    	Ham (half)			3-5		1-2
    	Ham (slices)			3-4		1-2
    	Lunch meats			3-5		1-2
    	Sausage (smoked)		7		1-2
    	Sausage (dry, semi-dry)		14-21		1-2
    
    FRESH POULTRY
    	Chicken & Turkey (whole)	1-2		12
    	Chicken pieces			1-2		9
    	Turkey pieces			1-2		6
    	Duck and goose (whole)		1-2		6
    	Giblets				1-2		3-4
    
    COOKED POULTRY
    	Covered with broth/gravy	1-2		6
    	Pieces not in broth/gravy	3-4		1
    	Cooked poultry dishes		3-4		4-6
    	Fried Chicken			3-4		4
    
    GAME
    	Deer				3-5		6-12
    	Rabbit				1-2		12
    	Duck & Goose (whole, wild)	1-2		6
    
    MISCELLANEOUS
    	Bread						1-2
    	Fish						1-2
    	Ice Cream					1-2
    	Pie						1-2
    	Soup						1-2
    	Shell fish					3-4
    	TV dinners					3-4
    	Cookies						3-4
    	Butter						5-7
    	Citrus fruit					5-7
    	Nuts						5-7
    	Vegetables					5-7
    	Juice concentrate				8-12
    	Margarine					8-12
    	Non-citrus fruit				8-12
    
    FREEZER TIP:
    
    If you have a freezer and you keep it on while on vacation, 
    place a bowl of ice cubes in it.  Upon your return, if the ice
    cubes are still cubes, everything stayed cold.  However, if the
    bowl is now a solid mass of ice, that means the freezer lost 
    power, warmed to above freezing, and the ice cubes melted and then
    re-froze.  This means the contents of the freezer are probably 
    spoiled and should not be eaten.

         Thanks for all of the tips, especially the freezer tip in the last
    message.  That really helps!
    
    					- Andrea
    

    Since we're talking about freezing meats...
    
    We recently acquired "The New Basics", the Silver Palate chefs' newest
    book.  We were looking at one of their recipes for pizza sauce
    (*wonderful*, BTW), and noticed a comment that puzzled us.  The
    footnote to the sauce stated that it freezes nicely IF fresh, never
    frozen Italian sausage is used.  But, it continued, meat should never
    be re-frozen, so if the Italian sausage has been frozen then don't try
    and freeze the sauce.
    
    Now, we've re-frozen meats for years *after* they've been cooked into
    something like spaghetti (or pizza) sauce.  Is that really unsafe, or
    have the Silver Palate chefs made an error????
    
    Steve

    I think they goofed.  I often freeze a sauce that was made with frozen
    meat.  I've often heard that you should not refreeze meat that has
    gotten up to room temp. while thawing but that's different.
    
    ed

They may be making a comment about TEXTURE.  I have discovered that if I
defrost frozen meat, cook it up, and then re-freeze it, it takes on a slightly
"spongy" texture.  This is not really noticable in sauces, but to a really
touchy person, the difference would be noticable.  It does not seem to happen
when I cook fresh meat into something and then freeze it.  As I said, it is
a subtle difference at best and most folks will not notice it in pasta sauces.

    When I freeze sauce, I make it meatless and then add it after thawed,
    just before serving. The meat does tend to disappear and become
    tasteless otherwise. If I am just using the sauce in lasagna, it's not
    a problem. When we have pasta and sauce, we like the "spicier" taste of
    the fresh sausage or meatballs.  
    

    re:  .9

    Your question and the replies have surprised me.  I was taught
    that once an item is defrosted, it should not be returned to
    the freezer in any shape or form.  Up to now, I just assumed
    that everyone was taught and followed this same rule.  I don't
    recall the reasons behind this practice, but I'll certainly ask
    my mother next time I talk with her!

    RE: .-1
    
    You know, I've never heard a reason *why* you can't re-freeze meats
    either.  Does anyone know???
    
    Steve

    I think the problem with refreezing meats comes from the way it thaws
    the first time.  As it thaws at rooms temperature, spoilage begins
    immediately, freezing partially spoiled meet invites trouble and
    when it thaws again it's really bad.  After this happened a few times
    to early [20th Century] humanoids, the conclusion became "Oh we'd
    better not refreeze meats."  The contemporary line from folks who
    sell frozen foods and I think from the FDA is that you can refreeze
    things that haven't gotten to room temperature and if they haven't
    been sitting in the fridge for too long [whatever that means].
    
    ed

re: .14

there are two aspects to spoilage.  One, the bacteria that grow in an
acceptable "medium" - in this case, meat that has risen to room temperature
or higher, but not high enough to kill off the bacterial colony.  Actually,
that statement is a simplification because bacteria continue to multiply
in meat that is kept cold in a refrigerator, they just grow very slowly.
The second aspect of spoilage is the waste that is excreted by the bacteria
colonies that exist in the food.  The bacteria can be killed by simply
cooking the meat because the bacteria has a heat threshold for survival.
However, once a bacteria colony has been well started in a medium, just killing
the bacteria does not make the food edible because the waste excretions from
the bacteria can be highly toxic.  In the case of botulism, this is exactly
the process.  The botulism bacteria aren't the problem - it's the toxin the
bacteria produce.  Heat does not break down the toxins produced by bacteria.
The human body can normally withstand low levels of bacterial toxins in our
food - and, indeed, even the most fastidious of us regularly eat little
bacteria colonies along with out meats, fruits, and veggies and get along just
fine.  Some bacteria even produce chemicals that our bodies LIKE and NEED...
so don't get icky about it.  It is only when the bacteria colonies exceed
our tolerance level that we are affected.

The rule about never re-freeezing meat is useful in preventing people from
eating meat that has been defrosted for too long and then re-frozen before
the obvious indications of spoilage - off-smell and bad color - are manifest.
In the early days of refrigeration, this was especially important because
the freezer/refrigerator suffered fluctuations in temperature that left
even frozen food suspect.  In the modern world, if you know that you have
defrosted the food correctly, minimizing the time the food is a happy breeding
ground for bacteria, and then you prepare the food in a way that is assured
of bringing the food to the boiling point for at least 5 minutes, then you
have no problem with the bacteria buildup and there is no problem with
re-freezing meat treated in this manner.  There are those, however, who
feel that the texture and flavor of the food will suffer upon defrosting and
heating it again for consumption.

FYI - unless you buy premium meats, you are probably buying food that has
been frozen (flash frozen to absolute zero for extended storage) and defrosted
for sale anyway.  It is a common practice.  The key is the low temperature of
the freezer used.  Our home refrigerator freezers do not reach that low a
temperature.

    .16, Maybe 20 to 40 below 0�F (-30 to -40�C) but not absolute zero. %-}
    
    ed

>    .16, Maybe 20 to 40 below 0�F (-30 to -40�C) but not absolute zero. %-}
    
okay, playing loose with the language, however, the commercial freezers have
a very low temperature and freeze FAST and rock solid.  Our home units cannot
match that.

    So does that mean that if I thaw a piece of meat in the microwave (eg
    very quickly), then the bacteria won't have time to multiply much and
    it would be safe to re-freeze it without cooking?
    
    Still wondering,
    Steve

    re: .18:  I worked in one of those commercial freezers once --
    in the middle of summer of course. -20�F I think it was, with
    big fans to make sure the cold penetrated everything.
    
    Jeesh, wearing a down parka in the summer.
    
    :-o
    
    ed

RE: .19

No.  There is the additional problem of breakdown of the cell structure by
ice crystals, which gets worse every time you re-freeze the meat.  This among
other things makes it easier for the bacteria to attack the meat.

--PSW

    I have a question concerning shrimp. Often, the market has a special
    price on shrimp (in the shells) that has been previously frozen. It is 
    sold already defrosted. I doubt that I can buy this shrimp and then
    freeze it raw.  My question is, if I cook and shell the shrimp, can I
    then freeze it until I'm ready to use it in a casserole or salad?  
    Please respond soon, the store I shop at has a good shrimp sale on this
    week!
    
    Cindy
    

    Yes.  If the shrimp is boiled, peeled and refrozen, it is fine.
    
    

           I would think that buy the time the shrimp is first froze and
    thawed, cooked and froze again that you would have lost most of its
    flavor.

    There are flaws to every plan.  As with almost all frozen fish, the
    shrimp are wattery and have lost a lot of flavor.  They make nice
    additions to soups, stuffings, etc. but are not much as a shrimp
    h'ors d'oeurve.
    
    They only asked if they could.
    
    -kevin
    

    Thanks for the replies, I guess I'll just buy, cook, and eat them right
    away.  Shrimp are too expensive to waste!!
    
    Cindy