Conference turris::cooks

    For normal yeast (not the fast rising stuff), the water should be 105
    to 115�F (=40.5 to 46�C).  I used to use a thermometer.  Now I just
    pour 1/2 cup boiling water (or a tad less) into a measuring cup and add
    cold tap water to the cup mark and add the yeast -- if the recipe calls for
    1 cup water.  If I do it in this order and waste a moment or two while
    doing it the temp works out to 115 when I add the yeast.
    
    As for old yeast, I use the yeast in jars and they recommend using
    within 90 days of opening the jar even though the expiration date
    may not have arrived yet.  When I used a jar that had been opened
    but refrigerated for 6 months, the loaves rose about half as much as
    usual.
    
    Yeast and proofing techniques are discussed elsewhere, in particular,
    notes 227, 632, 947, 1715, 2328, 2454.
    
    ed

    I can empathize with you.  Last year I 'taught' myself how to do it and
    any poor soul that walked through my door was forced to sample my home-
    bread.  It wasn't difficult - the smell of bread is very tantalizing,
    however, if they didn't eat it the minute I took it out of the pan
    it hit the 'air' and HARDENED!  I mean you could pound nails with a 
    couple of those loaves....homeade bricks?  I am not kidding.
    
    But, I got the 'feel' of it after trying it 7 or 8 times.  105 degrees
    isn't all that hot - after all - normal body temperature is almost 100...
    so the water should feel REAL warm - but HOT.  
    
    As for the kneading - I have my own way of doing it (what's
    comfortable for me) the purpose behind it is to activate the gluten. 
    Most recipes say to knead the dough 5-8 minutes which was too long for
    me.  I now know the dough is ready when it's elastic and smooth.  
    
    Don't give up!  It's like anything else - the more you do it the
    easier it becomes and you will 'know' after awhile what the little
    techniques are.  There is NOTHING like homeade bread - great gifts
    by the way!
    
    Enjoy...
    
    Marilyn
    
    P.S.  If the Oatmeal bread is the one I submitted somewhere is 2454
          it will not rise like white or wheat.  It's an old fashioned
          recipe that is hearty, tasteful and is my family's favorite.
    

    Most likely the water was too hot for the yeast - I used to have a lot
    of failures with bread before I got a yeast thermometer, but I've never
    had one since, and I bake almost every week.
    
    /Charlotte

my grandmother taught me this trick.  If the water is just warm on the inside
of your wrist, then it's about right.  The real deal is that the water
must NOT be too hot, but if it is a little cool, the bread will still rise,
it will just take longer.

Some very basic rules when baking bread:

	1)  if you use flours other than white wheat flour, the bread will
	    not rise as much as you are used to in commercial breads, but
	    it will taste lovely.

	2)  all liquid measurements are approximate.  flour will absorb more
	    OR less liquid depending on the humidity and temperature when
	    you bake.

	3)  all flour measurements are approximate.  Use enough flour to
	    get a stiff dough and then knead in enough flour, approx. 1/2
	    cup at a time, until you get a springy, solid, unsticky ball.
	    It should be relatively smooth, and very compact.  

	4)  rising times are approximate and depend on the temperature and
	    humidity of where you rise your bread.  Sometimes a first rising
	    can take 2 hours if it is cool in the room.  You don't
	    want to rise the bread in the oven, however, unles you know what
	    you are doing, because if you use too much heat, you kill the
	    yeast.

	5)  breads with sugar or honey in them to "feed" the yeast will rise
	    faster because the yeast has something to get drunk on...and
	    that's what you are doing...getting the yeast drunk, allowing
	    it to burp, and then killing it off when you bake the bread.  I
	    know it doesn't sound very tasty that way, but that's what
	    the basic gig is.

	6)  always make sure your rising loaf doesn't get a "crust" on it
	    while attempting to let the bread rise...oil the dough well
	    before setting it to rise in a loosely covered bowl - in a
	    pleasantly warm, draft-free location.

	7)  when you think you've kneaded enough, take a deep breath, and
	    knead the bread for 5 more minutes.  No bread has ever failed
	    because it was kneaded too much.  It's great exercise for the
	    arms, heart (aerobic, you know), and the mind to knead a lump
	    of dough into a fine textured loaf or two of bread.  A grand
	    way to get rid of hostilities.

	8)  keep at it.  Even the flatest of homemade bread loaves is a gift
	    of deep and abiding magic.  It always tastes better than any other
	    bread, and it nourishes folks in a special way that bread
	    from the hands and machines of strangers simply cannot touch.

    Some additional suggestions - 
    
    Start with a basic white bread recipe - you can then use this as a norm
    for other variations you try - for amount of liquid, for rising times,
    etc.  It is also a benchmark for subsituting ingredients; you'll know
    approximately what effect X change will have - different flours,
    decreasing fats, using honey vs. sugar, etc.  
    
    For water temperature, I adjust the tap to what I would use to wash my
    hands.  If you use a thermometer, you could probably use it once,
    then just remember how that temperature felt to you - a little less
    chancy than remembering colors!
    
    Stir as much flour in as you can before you turn it out to knead.  If
    you rely on kneading to get the last cup of flour in, the heat from
    your hands will start to develop the gluten and once this happens, the
    flour you add later will not be incorporated uniformly.  Don't skimp on
    the kneading time - it takes this time to develop the gluten, and the
    gluten provides the structure for the gasses.  It does really change to
    "Smooth and elastic."  Sometimes blisters form on the surface and
    break.
    
    Don't give up - it's just like any other technique, gets easier over
    time as you practice it!  And what yummy practice!
    
    Good luck!
    
    Terry
    

    
>    For water temperature, I adjust the tap to what I would use to wash my
>    hands.  If you use a thermometer, you could probably use it once,
>    then just remember how that temperature felt to you - a little less
>    chancy than remembering colors!
 
My father-in-law recommends always starting with cold water, and warming it
on the stove.  He says that if you saw what the inside of a hot water heater
looks like, you wouldn't want to cook with the water!

--Sharon
   

    RE: .6, also I just read that the water that's been sitting in a hot
    water pipe is more likely to have lead in it than water from a cold
    water pipe -- if you plumbing was done with lead solder.
    
    ed

    Can someone answer this question for me?
    
    What's the difference between a Yeast Cake vs. the kind you buy in the
    little packages (the loose stuff)?
    
    I have been trying to make an Armenian bread which calls for a Yeast
    Cake.  I didn't think that there was a difference and it didn't rise. 
    The second time I tried to make it, I doubled the yeast (the kind in
    the little packets), and it still didn't rise.
    
    So . . . for my sanity, what is the difference?
    
    Mary Jane
    

The answer is not much difference.  Yeasts are a type of fungus and like all
fungi, they respond to adverse conditions (lack of moisture, in this case) by
forming spores.  Dry active yeast is almost entirely in the spore state.  A
yeast cake contains a mixture of yeast spores and non-spore yeast cells.  Yeast
can stay alive in its spore state for quite a long while.  However, the cells
are dormant and do not respirate enough to produce significant quantities of
carbon dioxide gas (which is what makes dough rise and is the whole point
behind using yeast).  Mixing yeast with warm water and sugar provides a
receptive environment in which the spores will hatch into active cells that
reproduce and respirate.  Since a yeast cake starts with some already active
cells, it will activate and be ready for use faster than dry yeast.  However,
for the same reason, it won't keep as long as dry yeast.

--PSW

    Another difference is that fresh yeast is more vulnerable to water
    temperature - the water is 10 - 15 degrees hotter for dry yeast.  I
    think it is something like 85 - 100 degrees for fresh, 100 - 115
    degrees for dry (maybe someone can confirm?).  If you use "hot" water
    and fresh yeast, the yeast may get killed, but if you use "warm" water
    and dry yeast, it just gets off to a slower start.  Did the yeast get
    foamy in the water/sugar?  If it was OK there, then the problem
    occurred at some other stage of the process.
    
    BTW - I have found that you need to look at fresh yeast in the store -
    even though it is dated, a lot of times it goes bad on the shelf.
    
    Terry
    

    more on yeast, dried yeast and "baking powder"...
    
    Preface :  I live in Geneva, Switzerland... and for years have always
    believed that when an "american" recipe called for "baking powder" it
    was the same thing as the "dried yeast" I can find over here...
    
    Is this true or have I been in the dark all these years ?

>    believed that when an "american" recipe called for "baking powder" it
>    was the same thing as the "dried yeast" I can find over here...
    
>    Is this true or have I been in the dark all these years ?

	Not true.  There is no resemblance between the two.  

	Karen

RE: .12

The U.S. term "baking powder" refers to a non-yeast form of leavening.  It
contains baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) along with various other carbonates
in a mixture that releases carbon dioxide when heated, thus causing your
batter or dough or whatever to rise.  Neither yeast nor plain baking soda are
substitutes for baking powder--they give a different texture and flavor.  In
particular, I can testify from personal experience that corn muffins made
with baking soda instead of baking powder look OK but taste revolting.

--PSW

    Being the originator of the first "yeast" memo that we are all
    discussing, I really appreciate all the scientific information on the
    differences between dry yeast and a yeast cake.  I've learned a lot
    about the differences, and I think I realize what I did wrong with my
    Armenian bread. 
    
    First, I used canned milk (which doesn't make any difference in the
    bread rising process), but . . . I learned that sugar is needed to help
    the yeast grow.  I didn't use any sugar when I combined my dry yeast
    and milk.  Plus the recipe called for a yeast cake, and I used the dry
    kind.   I even doubled the amount of dry yeast thinking it would work.
    
    I'm going to make this bread again this weekend, and I'll use a yeast
    cake this time, and add a little sugar to the milk.  But can someone
    tell me why a recipe would call for a yeast cake vs. dry yeast? 
    Wouldn't they both work the same way?  
    
    Mary Jane from
    Michigan
    

    Sometimes the difference is just the age of the recipe or the type of
    yeast the author had access to.  If it came from someone who thought
    dry yeast was "new fangled" and they were mistrustful of it, maybe they
    just worded it in terms they were used to.  Maybe it's an elitist attitude
    like saying "only unsalted butter" when actually corn oil will work OK.
    Some recipes call for scalded, cooled milk and other people say that
    process isn't necesary now with pasturization.  I used to be one of the
    people who only used fresh yeast, until I began to appreciate having a
    quantity of dry yeast on hand that I knew hadn't gone bad between the
    time I bought it and used it.
    
    Another gotcha is that there are two sizes of fresh yeast - .6 and 2.0
    ounces.  A .6 cake is equivalent to one package or one scant tablespoon
    dry yeast; a 2 oz equals 3 packets or small cakes.
    
    If it goes OK this weekend, how about posting the recipe for your
    Armenian bread?
    
    Terry
    

    Okay gang -- I did it, I did it!!!
    
    The Armenian egg bread "Choreg" came out of the oven perfect!  I
    experimented with the yeast cake (2), and mixed 1/4 to 1/2 half cup of
    warm water with a little sugar.  NOTHING, no bubbling and no
    thickening.
    
    Then I used three packets of the dry yeast.  Mixed it with 1/4 to 1/2
    cup of warm water and sugar.  POOF, it bubbled, and thickened
    immediately.  Maybe the yeast cakes weren't any good, or the water
    wasn't warm enough but all I needed was to make sure that my dough
    would rise.
    
    Three packets of yeast you ask?  Well this recipe was taken out of an
    Armenian cookbook which called for 15 cups of flour, 10 eggs, 2 cups of
    milk, 2 cups melted butter, 2 cups of sugar, 2 yeast cakes (I used 3
    pkts of dry yeast) 1 teaspoon baking powder, and 1 tablespoon of salt.  
    This recipe also takes a minimum of 4 hours for the dough to rise, and 
    after braiding 6 loafs, it takes about another 1/2 to 1 hour to rise 
    again.  Brush the tops with egg yoke and sprinkle with sesame seeds or 
    (black seeds) which are found in middle eastern grocery stores, and bake 
    at 400 degrees for 20 minutes.
    
    The bread is called "Choreg" pronounced "Ch - reg", that's the only way
    I can write how it is spelled.  It's referred to as a coffee cake, or
    something you eat while having coffee.  You may use less sugar, but the
    older the bread gets, the less sweet it gets.  It tastes like a Jewish
    Challah bread, another egg bread type.
    
    Very good, and I'm pleased to say that it came out perfect!
    
    mary Jane
    
    

    Another yeast-related question -
    
    WHen making a double match of rolls (4 cookie sheets worth), should I
    make the double recipe, let it rise, punch it down, shape half into
    rolls and let them rise, and let the other half of the dough rise again
    in the bowl?  Does two rising in the bowl (prior to the rising after
    they're shaped) make any significant harmful difference?  Is it just
    that the texture is finer?  Or are they flatter because more gas has
    come and gone?  Should I shape all the rolls, then put half in the
    refrigerator to slow down the rising?
    
    When I've made a double batch before, the last pan or two was already
    falling flat by the time they were to go in the oven.  What's the best
    alternative to making 2 separate batches?
    
    I have only one oven (with a pizza stone) - can 2 pans be baked OK at
    once, maybe switch shelves halfway through?
    
    Thanks
    
    Terry
     

>    WHen making a double match of rolls (4 cookie sheets worth), should I
>    make the double recipe, let it rise, punch it down, shape half into
>    rolls and let them rise, and let the other half of the dough rise again
>    in the bowl?  Does two rising in the bowl (prior to the rising after
>    they're shaped) make any significant harmful difference?  Is it just
>    that the texture is finer?  Or are they flatter because more gas has
>    come and gone?  Should I shape all the rolls, then put half in the
>    refrigerator to slow down the rising?
    
Terry,

an extra rising is often called for when making very fine textured bread and
in most cases won't harm. However, if you saw your rolls flattening, then
the rising process had gone on too long.  My usual approach to making
quantities of a yeast-risen product is to mix, knead, rise, punch down, and
then store in the fridge, removing what I want to work with immediately
from the fridge as needed.  Shape the rolls, cover, set aside to rise, bake.
It will take the dough longer to rise after your rolls are shaped when it
starts as chilled dough, but it will protect you from your yeast beasties 
dying of old age before you get your rolls baked.

When storing the dough in the fridge, well covered to prevent it from drying
out, you can make one batch of rolls the next day, leaving you enough time
to allow it to rise.

I don't like the results when I try to bake too much in the oven at once,
often not getting even browning if I get impatient, so I just bake two batches.

    Thanks for the info, D - another concern with double batches is whether
    you have a bowl large enough to sufficiently mix everything, and
    whether you have a wooden spoon strong enough - one of mine broke the other
    night making a double batch!  
    
    Terry
    

    The secret to using dried yeast, IMHO, is giving the yeast time to
    'wake up'. A typical colony of yeast doubles its population in about
    twenty minutes, given favorable conditions: sugars or simple
    carbohydrates to work on; temperature (try "blood heat" as a yardstick
    body temperature or a little above { start at 105, and by the time the
    yeast gets rolling, it's cooled to 100 or less } ) and a comfortable
    ambient environment: classical music, overstuffed furniture. No art
    nouveau or art moderne. That's why grandmothers always bake so well).
    
    Most importantly, give the starter colony time! 15 minutes or more
    before putting it into the harsh cruel world of complex carbohydrates
    which is flour.
    
    Empathize with your yeast! Nurture it. Give it it's space, respect it,
    and it will always be your friend. Yeast is always with us. It exists
    in the wild, in a belligerant state. If you examine grapes under a
    microscope, you might see micron-tall graffiti left by wandering gangs
    of youthful yeast. Yet, domesticated, yeast is a baker's or brewer's
    best friend.  For more on yeast, read:
      The Oeneologist's Handbook, Societie de Vins Francais, 1988
      Chlamidya: Diagnosis and Antibiotic Therapy, JAMA, May 12, 1971
    
    :-)  M
    

    Does anyone know if freezing a portion of dough will hurt the 
    rising process?
    
    If I make a recipie for bread which makes 2 loaves, I would want to
    shape and freeze the other portion so all I'd have to do is take it
    out of the freezer, pop it in the prepared pan, wait for it to defrost
    and rise...then bake! 
    
    Has anyone experienced any difficulties w/ fillings ect as well?
    
    thanks.....Michele

    RE: .23
    
    I believe freezing kills the yeast.  I know it does with beer yeast, I
    can only assume it will with bread yeast too.
    
    Here's what I do.  Do one rising.  Punch down, shape, and put one loaf
    in the fridge for a day or two, the other loaf I let rise and bake.
    Refrigerating will only buy you a day or two, but that might be enough
    time to get through the first loaf.  Give the refrigerated loaf about
    2-3 times the normal rising time - the yeast needs to wake up.
    
    				-David

    re .24
    
    I don't think it kills it because you can buy frozen loaves and
    thaw them and they rise.  
    
    re .23
    
    I would just try it.  I can't imagine that the frozen ones you
    buy do anything special.
    
    Kristen

    If you defrost bread dough and let it rise, it's going to take a
    long time between defrosting and rising. There's a good chance the
    dough could dry out. Try rubbing a small amount of oil on the dough
    when you take it out of the freezer.
    
    Linda
    

    I freeze bread dough all the time.  Never a problem with rising, but as
    Linda said, make sure you either rub butter or oil on the top, or cover
    with a damp towel to prevent the surface from crusting.  I usually let
    it rise once, punch it down, wrap tightly, and pop into the freezer.
    Sarah
    

    In a recent note there was a question concerning buying yeast in larger
    quantities and freezing it.  I replied that I remembered reading somewhere
    that yeast could be kept in the freezer for one year.  I found the
    article this past weekend and it will stay *indefinitely*.  I think
    thats great - but I don't expect my 1 lb. to last very long.  This was
    in the King Arthur's catalog.
    
    Flo

Well, I made what I thought was a smart move, buying Red Star "active dry 
yeast" in a 2-lb compressed bag at Costco, certain it was cheaper than buying 
10 oz. of loose yeast in a jar from Kitchens Etc. ...  but now, I'm not so sure!

The directions for use say:
- Put required amount into a bowl
- Add up to 1/2 total water (warmed to 100-110 degrees F)
- Let soak for 5 minutes, then stir
- Add remaining water at room temperature

Have I bought a different kind of yeast than was in the jar?  I'm not a real 
baker, just a bread machine user!  This sounds like a bit more work than my 
usual production.  

Margo

re: .31

>Well, I made what I thought was a smart move, buying Red Star "active dry 
>yeast" in a 2-lb compressed bag at Costco, certain it was cheaper than buying 
>10 oz. of loose yeast in a jar from Kitchens Etc. ...  but now, I'm not so sure!

>The directions for use say:
>- Put required amount into a bowl
>- Add up to 1/2 total water (warmed to 100-110 degrees F)
>- Let soak for 5 minutes, then stir
>- Add remaining water at room temperature

>Have I bought a different kind of yeast than was in the jar?  I'm not a real 
>baker, just a bread machine user!  This sounds like a bit more work than my 
>usual production.  

That sounds like normal "proofing" of dry yeast when making bread by hand.
Your normal bread machine procedure will probably work fine.

-Hal

    The directions given are for dissolving and proofing the yeast. I don't
    have a bread machine - I assume you dump the yeast in with the rest of
    the dry or wet ingredients?  When you make bread or yeast dough by
    hand, you generally want to take the extra step to proof the yeast
    first, to be sure it's alive.  Otherwise going through all the time
    and work to mix, knead, etc. by hand and having yeast that is dead will
    be REALLY disappointing, or a very happy coincidence if you like
    unleavened bread : )
    If you don't do a proofing step with a machine, and the yeast is
    fresh, I wouldn't worry about it.
    Sarah

I bought the `brick' of yeast and put it in a jar with a tight fitting
lid....large pickle jar works (NOT gallon size, too big!).  And I keep
it in the freezer to keep the yeast fresh.  I use a bread machine and
put the yeast in on top of the dry ingredients (per instructions for
machine).  Haven't had any failures yet and the yeast is several years
old now.

    .31 - I have been using Red Star from the "bulk club" in both my bread
     machine and "handmade" breads for quite a while. I use the same mixing 
    methods and measurements call for in the recipe I am making. I haven't 
    ever had a problem. If you do have problems just adjust your yeast 
    measurement per your machine instructions. Mine came with a little "if 
    your bread" did this or that wrong type adjustment chart.
    
    Good luck and happy "baking".
    
    
    

    RE: .34
    
    A few years seems like a long time to keep yeast even if it is in a
    jar in the freezer? First, How much baking do you do? and second,
    How big was the brick? I use a 1 lb. block every 6 months and it
    is always good when proofed.
    
    pete
    

>>    RE: .34
    
>>    A few years seems like a long time to keep yeast even if it is in a
>>    jar in the freezer? First, How much baking do you do? and second,
>>    How big was the brick? I use a 1 lb. block every 6 months and it
>>    is always good when proofed.
    
I haven't done much baking in the last couple years due to other obligations.
We had a house built recently and I now have a nice, big kitchen and have 
done more baking in the last 8 months than I have in the last 15 or so years!  
I would use my bread machine more but the loaves molds within 2-3 days plus 
I haven't found a recipe for a good sandwich bread.  It makes great toast
but crumbles too easily for sandwiches.  And I don't like keeping the bread
in the fridge cause it drys out too much.  The yeast that I have in my jar in 
the freezer is the remains of a 1 lb brick bought at Sysco.

Judy

    	re:Sandwich bread
    
    	If you haven't already tried it, try the basic French bread recipe.
    I prefer a light soft bread for sandwiches and this seems to fit the
    bill. It's also one of the easiest to make.
    
    	Ray

re: .38

>    	re:Sandwich bread
>    
>    	If you haven't already tried it, try the basic French bread recipe.
>    I prefer a light soft bread for sandwiches and this seems to fit the
>    bill. It's also one of the easiest to make.
    
I also use my French bread recipe for sandwich bread, although I don't use
a bread machine.  For some reason I don't fully understand the French bread
dough takes on rather different characteristics when baked in a loaf pan.
It's hard to describe in words, but it seems to maintain the hearty yet tender
interior, but without as hard of a crust.

The resulting sandwich bread has been quite a hit with the two hard-to-please
members of my household.

-Hal

    
    	You will find that French Bread has a different texture if
    you put a dish of water on the bottom of the oven when you bake
    the bread. And also with Italian. The crust is crunchy. I bake
    on a stone. On the bottom of the oven place a pyrex dish of
    water about 1/2 inch deep in a 2 inch dish. It does make a 
    difference. When I worked in a bakery as a kid, there was
    always this disk of water or two when making open loaves of
    Rye or French or Italian bread.
    
    pete
    

    This is a recipe that came with my Westbend breadmachine. They call
    it a country white. I was using a different recipe for white that came
    with the machine and the results were terrible. This one is excellent
    and stays good for sandwiches 3-4 days if stored properly. I believe
    this yields a 1.5 to 2 lb loaf.
    
    1 cup water
    2.75 cup bread flour
    2 tblsp powdered milk flakes (I use Shaw's brand)
    2 tblsp sugar
    1.75 tsp salt
    2 tblsp butter (cut into 4 pieces place in corners of pan)
    1.75 tsp bmachine yeast
    
    I use the basic setting on light color and I get very consistent
    results.
    
    Enjoy!
    
    /George

    RE: .41 What are you, some crazy engineer, who ever heard of .75
    in a cooking notes file.  :-)
    
    pete

    Next time I'll conform in fractions.......  8-)
    I looked at .41 again and it does look a bit weird.
    
    George

RE: .41

>>    1.75 tsp bmachine yeast
    
/George

bmachine yeast?  Is this different than other yeast?  The yeast I currently
use, uses only 1 tsp per 3 cups of flour.  

Thanks for clarification.

Judy

    Judy,
    
    I use Fleischman's (sp?) and it comes in a jar. (I know, the $$$ stuff)
    They label it "Bread Machine" but it might just be rapid rise. Maybe
    the yeast experts in here can elaborate further....
    
    George

    	I'm not an expert, but my wife has had good luck with the Red Star
    yeast found at Sam's Club. It's $4 for two 1 lb. bags. If I remember 
    correctly, Fleishmans is more than that for one 10 oz. jar.
    
    	Keep the yeast in the freezer and it keeps quite a while. My wife
    pours the open bag into a Mason jar and keeps it in the frig, though
    it would probably last even longer in the freezer.
    
    	I think there is already a discussion about this in the bread
    machine note.
    
    	Ray