Conference turris::cooks

  Articles which are truthful but mislead people into the wrong behavior
  don't do anyone any favors. I hope this isn't one.

  I never worried much about a jar of Hellman's coming with bad bugs
  right off the shelf, but I still take precautions with food prepared
  with mayonnaise, because it contains egg yolk (least the mayo I buy
  does), which can pick up and harbor salmonella. I'm under the
  impression that while the bacteria responsible for botulism can't
  survive in an acid environment, salmonella can. Am I wrong? I've had a
  nasty case of salmonella poisoning from potato salad made with mayo,
  but maybe it was from eggs which were there in addition to the mayo.
  Anyone know the full story?

    I remember reading an article a while ago about a study done about
    food spoiling with and without mayonnaise.  They made some chicken 
    salad with mayonnaise and without mayonnaise and they did the same
    thing with ham.
    
    Interestingly enough, both the chicken salad and ham salad without the
    mayonnaise spoiled first, and the ham salad spoiled before the chicken
    salad.  I don't remember how long it took for the salads made with the
    mayonnaise to spoil...... but I would guess that it was quite a few
    hours later.
    
    I also remember a series on HBO about salmonella poisoning.  It was
    thanksgiving and a family sat down to eat the traditional meal.  The
    object of the show was to try to figure out how the family got the 
    salmonella, so they simulated the preparation of the food.  It turned
    out that the salad was the guilty culprit... because the knife that was
    used to cut out the innards of the raw turkey was then used to cut the
    tomatoes without being washed thoroughly first.... and the salad
    dressing that was poured onto the salad helped the salmonella grow, but
    the salad dressing wasn't mayonnaise!
    
    If someone gets sick from food that has mayonnaise, it could be because
    of the way it was prepared, not because it has mayonnaise in it.  I
    would much rather eat a warm (meaning left out at room temp) ham sandwich 
    made with mayonniase that a warm ham sandwich made with mustard because
    I have never heard that mustard retards spoiling.  And I'm another one
    of those kids who ate tuna, balonga, ham, and roastbeef for lunch at school
    made with mayo that wasn't refrigerated - and still like my sandwiches,
    smothered in mayo, at room temp better than if they are cold!  At the
    same time, I wouldn't eat a two day old sandwich left out at room temp,
    with or without mayo - same goes for unwrapped food of any sort.
      
    I also don't doubt that no matter how many studies are done about the
    pro's and con's of mayo, some people will always believe that if food
    with mayonnaise goes bad, it's the fault of the mayonnaise.  Besides,
    everyone knows how fattening mayo is - and I wish I didn't love it!
    So those people who avoid mayo are better off in the long run!
    
    T.  
    
    
    

>    [...] I
>    would much rather eat a warm (meaning left out at room temp) ham sandwich 
>    made with mayonniase that a warm ham sandwich made with mustard because
>    I have never heard that mustard retards spoiling.

  This is exactly the problem I'm referring to -- becoming casual about
  mayo (or any other food), because it's been shown not to be an
  immediate source of salmonella. I've never heard that mayonnaise would
  in any way inhibit salmonella growth, whether because it's acidic or
  not. Just in the example you've cited, we have a salad which has been
  contaminated because a tomato (highly acidic) was sliced with a
  salmonella-laden knife. And you'd trust mayo before mustard? Mustard
  is made with plenty of vinegar, so is probably about as acidic as
  mayo, and has none of the protein in which salmonella thrive so well.

>    [...] some people will always believe that if food
>    with mayonnaise goes bad, it's the fault of the mayonnaise.

  You're right not to unjustly blame mayo (or any other food) as being
  the *source* of salmonella, but I believe it should be recognized as a
  comfortable home once contaminated by something which *is* a source.
  At the same time, it's smart to recognize that salmonella grows nicely
  in plenty of other foods, not just mayonnaise. It's also important to
  know that raw meats and poultry (and recently, apparently, raw eggs)
  are likely *sources* of salmonella. In fact, raw, unwashed *anything*
  is a likely source, including fruits and vegetables. 

  I've also had plenty of tuna salad and egg salad sandwiches for lunch
  which weren't refrigerated from the time they were made in the
  morning. The important thing is to try to avoid the contamination of
  foods which are happy homes (like eggs, meat, poultry, dairy) by foods
  which are likely sources (any raw, unwashed foods). This can be
  accomplished by washing all raw foods well, and by keeping them and
  the utensils used to prepare them away from the foods in which
  salmonella grows well, especially if they're not going to be cooked
  soon. The example you referred to in the re-enactment (salad prepared
  with a knife which had been used to cut the raw turkey) would be less
  likely to happen in our house, because all plates and utensils which
  are used to prepare raw meats, poultry, and produce are washed well
  before they touch anything which won't be cooked soon or refrigerated
  right away.

  It's unfortunate that our education doesn't include some fundamental
  hygiene in the area of food storage and preparation. We've become very
  complacent because the sanitary conditions in the US are quite good,
  but I wonder how many people would survive in slightly less clean
  environments.

For the reasons given in the article in .0, I would be VERY surprised to find
out that commercial mayonnaise is the source of salmonella poisoning.  However,
mayonnaise is a highly nutritious culture medium for almost any kind of
aerobic bacteria, salmonella included.  The usual cause of salmonella poisoning
related to mayonnaise-containing salads is contamination from utensils,
bowls or other cooking vessels, cutting boards, cloths, or the like that harbor
the salmonella bacteria because of previous contact with a source of
salmonella (uncooked poultry skin is the usual culprit).  The typical scenario
is you cut up your chickens on a wooden cutting board and then slice the
potatoes for potato salad on the same cutting board surface (the bacteria hide
in the cuts in the surface of the cutting board--it's nearly impossible to
get them out, no matter how thoroughly you wash).  You mix up the potato salad
(from the now-contaminated potatoes) and put it in the trunk of the car and
drive to the picnic site on a hot summer's day.  The potato salad in the 100+
degree car trunk heat is an ideal bacteria culture medium.  The number of
bacteria doubles every minute or so, and you drive for an hour to get to the
picnic site.  2 to the 60-th power is a big number.....

--PSW

    The best type of cutting boards, over all, are those NOT made of wood.
    The public service message on HBO also referred to the cutting board,
    made of wood, that had never been clean.  In hot weather, it's not a 
    very sensible notion to even THINK about preparing food on a wooden
    cutting board since it's very difficult to *clean* the board to
    santitary satsifaction (okay, almost impossible).
    
    When I prepare types of salads made with mayo, I prepare my own,
    home-made mayo and keep a watchful eye on, not only how long it's
    left out, but the what type of surface I prepared it on.  Another words
    - it's better to be safe than sorry.  Pay attention to everything (the
    surface, the amount of time the dish is unrefridgerated, the utensils,
    etc.  And remember - prepare your dishes on a non-porous surface. 
    
    
    /gail
    
    /gail

    Hm.....best cutting boards are those NOT made of wood.....so what
    would you use in place of wood?  I was always under the assumption
    that the reason you WANTED to use a wood board was to protect the
    KNIFE.....
    
    As to cleaning the board, I never had difficulty keeping them clean...
    have a seperate one for veggies and meat.....and always use them....
    
    I dont think I believe that public service message.....
    
    apologies for adding these comments in the "mayo" note    :-)
    
    Rick

  We've gradually replaced most of our wooden cutting boards with that
  softish plastic which feels like nylon. They were sold by Joyce Chen
  and other brand names. They don't damage knives, don't get into food,
  feel real nice to cut on, and go into the dishwasher.

    Sorry, Rick, but you definitely should not use a wood cutting board for
    meats.  You *cannot* guarantee that the wood is thoroughly cleaned. 
    You can *easily* sharpen a knife!  I use my wood surfaces for cutting
    vegetables.  I use my (white plastic material) cutting boards for
    poultry (I almost never eat other meats, and don't need to cut them
    raw).
    
    The public service message gail saw on HBO has been commonly taught in
    schools and by all Public Health officials for over 15 years.*  Trust
    Paul's information!  We all know by now that he's very careful about
    his facts!
    
    
    Susan
    
    *I don't know if boys receive this information, since our sexist
    society still only teaches such things to girls, regardless of the fact
    that most chefs are male!  I was taught this information in the seventh
    grade in Nashua public schools, and the Board of Health checks for
    non-wood cutting surfaces in their inspection of restaurant kitchens. 
    Those poly-something white cutting boards are bleached to remove carrot
    and tomato stains, and to kill all bacteria!

    Amen to that Susan.
    
    
    I was taught in culinary school the same thing; using wood for meat,
    poultry and seafood is *not reccommended*.  Not a *no-no* just not
    reccommended.
    
    There are quite a few good cutting boards out there specifically
    designed NOT to ruin your knives.  I have a set that's worth well
    over a couple of hundred and the board that I have hasn't damamged
    them yet!!  On top of that, you can clean them with bleach - that's
    what I was taught to do in Spain and the Azores: clean fruits and
    vegetables with a little bleach (since they use human feces as
    fertilizer) and haven't stopped since.  When it comes to food poisoning
    you can NEVER be too careful.  I know, I've been priviledged!!!  No one
    wants to get that sick!!!
    
    
    
    /gail

Re .9:

What kind of cutting board do you have?

- Brad

    I just purchased a glass cutting board and have retired my wooden
    one to vegetables only.  Does anyone know if glass will ruin
    knives.  It did not say anything on the label except that it was
    guaranteed for 5 years, dishwasher safe and a few more other statements.
                                                                 
    Thanks to this file, I decided I could be more careful.  This is the 
    greatest file!!!

  Glass will dull your knives, and frequent sharpening will shorten
  their life. The thing which would bother me the most about a glass
  "board" would be the feel of the knife edge on the glass surface. I
  still think the "Joyce Chen" nylon boards are the best.

re: .9

How do you clean vegetables and fruits with bleach?  I thought it was dangerous
to ingest it.

-- Nisha

    RE:  Glass boards
    
    	I've used 'em, and all I can say is "Yech!"  The noise that
    knife makes against the glass sets my teeth on edge! 
    
    I'm with .12.  The white nylon (or whatever polymer they are) cutting
    boards are great.  That they can go in the dishwasher for cleaning is a
    tremendous advantage, IMHO.  
    
    Sue

RE: .13

.9 said to clean the **cutting boards** with bleach, not the vegetables!

--PSW

re .15 and .9 --
    

>   On top of that, you can clean them with bleach - that's
>   what I was taught to do in Spain and the Azores: clean fruits and
>   vegetables with a little bleach (since they use human feces as
>   fertilizer) and haven't stopped since.  
    
    Sounds to me like it's the boards *and* the fruits and veggies that are
    getting cleaned with bleach, not just the boards!   Please verify,
    Gail! 
    
    Cara
    

    
    .....*where* are they using human feces for fertilizer?!  In the U.S.?
    
    
    Steve
    

    to .17: I thought the context "in Spain and the Azores" was obvious.
    
    ed

    It does no harm what-so-ever to clean your fruits and veg with bleach..
    course we are talking about using approx: 1 TBS of bleach to 1 gallon
    of water.  I've been doing it for years.. in fact before I got a
    dishwasher I put approx: 1 TBS bleach per gallon in my final rinse
    water.
    
    I have a wooden cutting board that looks like a hunk of tree if
    I ever saw one.. this thing is about 4 inches thick and approx 24"X18".
    Daily I give it a good scrub with soap, a brush and very hot water.
    That is followed by a bleach rinse as described above.  This is
    my nightly routine.  As it is double sided if I've chopped anything
    I'm unsure of I turn it over.
    
    'Course the chances of cross contamination in our house is pretty
    slim.. we're vegetarians. ;-)  Still I don't like to take any chances.
    
    gailann 
    

    Rubbing Alcohol will also sterilize the cutting board.  That's what I
    use and it has no affect on food.  (Dr's sterilize their instruments
    with rubbing alcohol..FYI)
    
    Kristen

    Common sense tells you to make sure that you rinse the
    fruits/vegetables before you eat them!!!!  With all the chemicals
    and what not on food, you have no idea just who was handling it or
    what sort of fertilizer was used.  Just because the law states a 
    farmer must keep track, every morning, of just what type of
    fertilizers that he's used doesn't mean diddley!!  If you believe
    that then I definitely have an *ocean front property in Arizona*
    to sell you.
    
    As was stated in a pervious note, 1 teaspoon per 1 or 2 gallons of
    warm water is not going to kill you but drinking it straight, sort of like
    grain alchohol *8-) just might.  If you sterilize with hot water and
    soap for your board, it's not alll that easy to do that with
    fruits/vegetables.  This way you're killing quite a few germs plus
    ridding some of the chemicals on the fruit/vegetable.  People have been
    doing this for years ... I'm just suprised that I got the reaction that
    I did.  
    
    

    re: .20
    
    FWIW, in our biological research lab, it was carefully explained that
    various alcohols DO NOT "sterilize" anything. In a manner similar to
    soap, the alcohol merely lowers the surface tension of fluids, allowing
    more germs to be "wiped away" during cleaning. For sterilization, we
    used very powerful UV lights. However, this has little to do with
    cooking!

Glass boards can be sterilised by placing them in a microwave oven for a 
while...

plastic might melt though...

/. Ian .\

    RE: .13  FWIW read the side of your bleach bottle-- it gives all kinds
    of ratios for use as a cleaning agent-- includes vegetables.. fruit and
    how to make "SAFE" drinking water if you are ever in an area that
    floods--- if you think about it -- most public water supplies add the
    same type of "CHLORINE" to their systems---             <DICK>

    In the Food section of today's San Jose Mercury News there is 2 FULL
    pages about making and such of mayo with different ingredients and
    flavors and lo-cal recipes, etc, etc, etc.  Of course i kept it
    to read at home.
     
    I will post an interesting things, ie; recipes, health info. 
    
    
                                      Robbin

    Mayo La Tourse 
    
    In blender put -
    
    1 T lemon juice
    1  egg
    3/4 t dijon mustard
    Salt & Pepper
    
    Add through top 1 cup of extra virgin olive oil - slowly with the
    blender on until you have satiny and creamy texture.
    
    Add:
    
    l T brandy
    1 T catsup
    1 t tabasco
    
    Blend for another 10 seconds - chill
    
    Compliments of The Travelin' Gourmet - Mike Kalina
    
    Not sure about the French spelling of La Tourse - I wrote as I
    think I heard it.  Mike also prepared a chicken breast to be served
    cold and topped with this mayo.  Is this the one??
    
    I haven't made this, but it sure sounds like it'd good.
                                                     
    
    Flo

    Re several>
    	Wood may not be the material of choice for a meat cutting block 
    but it certainly doesn't have to be banned from the kitchen. 
    	When I was a youngster (pre plastic era) I worked for a local butcher 
    shop. All the meat was cut on wood butcher blocks. They were cleaned at
    the end of each day by scraping and brushing with salt and a wire brush 
    until all sign of blood was eliminated. I'm sure it could be cleaned by 
    other processes as well.
    	The only point of this belated reply is that while other material
    may be more desireable, wood can still be acceptable.
    
    Paul     

There is nothing wrong with cleaning a wooden board with salt, wood shavings
or whatever.

However current professional practice (and the law in Britain, for restaurants
and hotels etc) says that you should not use knives or boards with more than 
one class of food: you can buy colour coded knives/boards (red=meat, 
yellow=poultry, white=fish, green=veggies) to avoid cross contamination 
when working in a hurry.

Whilst in the domestic kitchen I wouldn't be concerned about the knives, 
always assuming they are regularly washed, I would *not* recomend using a
wooden board for more than one class of food...

/. Ian .\

    I have a wooden cutting board that was my grandmother's I have had no
    problems. it must be at least 20 yrs old. Of course I wash it right 
    after cutting meat on it before using it for anything else. I just use
    an sos pad scrub rinse with hot water, then I rub baking soda into the 
    wet board and rinse again. Seems to clean it really well this way.
    Barbara