Conference turris::cooks

    A couple of suggestions (not answers):
    
    Mix the gluten flour in with the regular flour before adding to the
    yeast mixture. Gluten is basically the `glue' that holds all the
    wheat/water/sugar (etc.) particles together. If you add it separately
    it won't let other things mix in well. K?
    
    Mix in the first cup of flour thoroughly with a wooden spoon. Then add
    flour 1/2 cup at a time till it gets too difficult to use the spoon,
    then wash them paws and start mixing with them. It will be a sticky
    mess to start, but if you keep adding flour A LITTLE AT A TIME it will
    eventually turn into a smooth elastic dough. Be patient.  Most
    important: Don't give up. My first bread experiences would have made
    any brick maker proud, now I make all kinds of delicious, tender breads.
    My only problem; I eat all that tender, delicious bread!
    
    A fellow bagel lover.
    
    P.S. Gluten is available at most larger health food stores.

    I haven't used gluten flour per se, but I use 2 cups of bread flour,
    2 cups of whole wheat, and 2 cups of rye.  The bread flour isn't gluten
    flour but is high in gluten (thanks Louise!).  I think I use about 3
    cups of water.  How much water did you start out with, or what ratio of
    water and flour?  I hope you keep trying, bagels are worth it - as you
    can probably tell, we make a double batch!
    
    
    BTW, I only boil them for about 30 seconds - some recipes say 7 minutes
    - I tried that and they were soggy!
    
    Terry
    

    One more suggestion:
    
    If you have one (or at least access to one) use a Kitchen Aid mixer.
    No sore hands or botched up mixing jobs that way!  I love mine!
    
    Sue

    Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try adding the gluten to the flour
    next time which will be soon. I ain't gonna give up yet! To answer
    .2, there was one cup water, 1/2 cup gluten and 3 1/2 cups flour in
    this recipe. And to .3, I'll get a Kitchenaid just as soon as I can
    make something edible the hard way. Then I can justify spending the
    $200 on another toy!
    
    Keith
    

    Hi Keith,
    	The previous suggestions are right on the mark.  You have to
    add the gluten to the other flour and mix well and then add that
    flour to the liquid.  
    
    Gluten has been used for a meat substitute - if you've seen cans 
    of "vegetarian oysters" in the oriental stores, that's gluten.  My 
    vegetarian chinese cookbook says to measure water, add the gluten, 
    knead under running water to wash off the remaining starch, shape,
    and fry.
    
    I actually tried this.  You get a substance resembling those kneadable
    erasers you used in art class, after they erased a lot of charcoal
    and are sort-of grey and blotchy.
    
    Then you are supposed to break or cut off pieces, flatten them,
    and steam or deep fry.  Breaking or cutting a substance with the 
    consistency of sticky rubber is nearly impossible - you cut; the
    cut marks immediatly heal themselves.  You flatten; the dough springs
    back into lumps, you flatten again...it's like stretching
    pizza dough where you stretch it into a 12" circle, turn around
    to get the sauce, and when you turn back the dough has sprung back
    to about a 4" circle.  The trick is to never turn your back on
    the stuff.
    
    Anyhow, once you get a bunch of semi-flat chunks, each separated by about
    4 inches of counter space so they can't reform their colony, you start
    frying.  This actually works like the book says.  They puff up and get
    nicely golden brown.  Then you drain them on paper towels, and they
    slump down and resume a little of their former grey pallor.
    
    Then you throw them out.  Really, trust me.  These things taste
    terrible, and they're worse when you try any of the tasty serving
    suggestions like "Stirfryed Gluten with Vegetables in a Tasty Sauce".
    
    Tofu is much easier.
    
    --Louise

    The KitchenAid idea is great if you have the money, the room and you
    don't like the fun of feeling/watching that sticky mess all over your
    hands turn to a beautiful, smooth, elastic dough. I have other options
    for bread making, but I really find the mixing/kneading therapeutic.
    Maybe in a few years I'll grow tired of it.
    
    ; )

    re .5 I'm glad I ate before reading that note! 8^) You are correct
          as that is exactly what the gluten, water, yeast, oil and
          sugar mixture looked like; something you would later throw
          away, as I did. I think you also must have seen my first
          attempts at pizza dough too. The road to baking good bread
          must begin with some failures I guess. Cinnamon-raisin bagels
          this weekend or bust!
    
          Keith
    

RE: 'springy' dough....the trick to getting your dough to NOT be too
springy (as in the 4 inch round of pizza dough that you cannot stretch
out to the desired size).....is to let it rest.  Once you have a nice,
firm, springy, ball of dough ready for final baking, place on the bread 
kneading surface and cover with an upside-down bowl.  Leave it alone for
at least 15 minutes...even better for 20 minutes....NO PEEKING...then, 
working with as few strokes as you can, cut and size the dough and     
bake it.  You will notice that the more it is handled, the 'springier'
it gets....that's what the gluten does for ya.  As all wheat flours
CONTAIN gluten, when you ADD more gluten, you get a REALLY 'springy'
dough which, in turn, produces a REALLY chewy product (desirable in
a bagel, not so great in, say, a loaf of bread).

		That-little-old-bread-maker-D

    
    re: .0 et al.
    
    Ratio of other flours to gluten should be 7:1.  If using other flours
    in combination, ratio of wheat to white (whole-wheat) or wheat to
    rye (pumpernickel) should be about 1:1.  
    
    
    
    re: .2
    
    On boiling or poaching:
    
    Trick seems to be timing the rising of the bagels and using the water
    as a guide.  Bagels should rise for 20-30 minutes.  Nearing the end of
    this time is when to set the water a-boilin'.  Drop one in -- it should
    sink, then quickly rise to the surface.  If it doesn't they haven't
    risen long enough.
    
    Assuming proper rising, bagels should 'poach' for about two minutes per
    side, then be removed to the baking sheet with a slotted spoon.  Too
    little time in the water makes them less chewy; too much, as noted,
    makes them soggy.
    
    
    Latest rage: 
    
    Oat bran bagels have become popular here in the NY/NJ area.  Easy to
    buy here, making whole-wheat bagels and subbing 1/2 half-cup of bran
    for about 1/4 cup of the wheat flour approximates the commercial
    products.
    
    BTW the local bagelry makes a cream cheese, walnut, and raisin spread
    which goes great with whole-wheat and bran bagels.
    
    
    ...and for those of you who haven't tried 'em:
    
    Bialys are something to die for!  (rough pronunciation 'bee-alley')
    -------------------------------
    
    The Bialy is a 'cousin' to the bagel -- similar, but not boiled or
    'poached' before baking.  With cream cheese they are something you
    won't normally find outside the NYC vicinity:
    
    Cornmeal                          2 tablespoons sugar
    2 tablespoons water               1 cup warm water 
    2 tablespoons dehydrated, minced  2 teaspoons salt
       onions                         2 tablespoons vegetable oil
    2 teaspoons vegetable oil         1/2 cup gluten flour
    1 (1/4 oz.) package active dry    3.5 cups white unbleached
       yeast (about 1 tablespoon)        flour
    
    Lightly dust a baking sheet with cornmeal.  In a small bowl, combine
    water and onions.  Let stand until onions are rehydrated, about ten
    (10) minutes.  Squeeze water from onions and combine with 2 tsp oil.
    Set aside.  
    
    In a medium-sized bowl, combine yeast and 1 tablespoon sugar.  Pour
    1/2 cup of warm water over mixture.  Let stand until yeast and sugar
    have dissolved and yeast is bubbling, then add remaining 1/2 cup of
    warm water.  Add remaining 1 tablespoon of sugar, salt, oil and gluten
    flour and beat thoroughly.  Add white flour, stirring until you have a
    firm, well-mixed dough.  If dough reaches firm consistency before all
    flour has been added, add remaining flour during kneading process.
    
    Turn out dough onto a lightly floured board and knead vigorously 10
    minutes or until dough is smooth and resilient.  Divide dough into 18
    equal pieces.  Form Bialys by rolling each piece of dough into a ball.
    Flatten until it resembles a burger bun, somewhat fatter in center.
    
    Using a spoon or your fingers, make an indentation in the center of
    each dough patty (as if making a hole, but only going half-way thru
    from the top).  Place Bialys on the prepared baking sheet.  Fill the
    Bialy holes (craters) with onions.  Let rise 20-30 minutes in a warm,
    draft-free place.  Preheat oven to 400F (205C).  Bake in preheated
    oven for about thirty (30) minutes, or until perfectly browned.
    
    Cool a bit, slice parallel to the surface, just below the crater,
    spread the cream cheese, put back together and enjoy!
    
    Bill
    
        

    re .10
           Believe it or not, out here in the desert we get EXCELLENT
    bialys from a good bagel shop in Scottsdale. They also make great
    oat bran bagels but their other bagels aren't up to Long Island
    standards. These people started out on Jerome Ave in good 'ole
    NY. You get to watch them make all the bread and they are thrown
    into wire baskets when done, unlike the waxed paper on cookie sheets
    that some of the MA bagel shops did. They also put them in a paper
    bag, not a plastic bag with a twist tie like the aforementioned
    shops. If I sound picky...well that's because I grew up in the NJ/
    NY area where even the grocery stores had great bread, bagels too.
    Too many of the shops in MA went to all the trouble of baking a
    fairly good bagel and then decided they just had to display them
    in some pretty way.
    
    As for the bialy recipe, it sounds like we have the same book, the
    name of which escapes me at the moment. In fact that recipe sounds
    the same as the bagel recipe I tried. Whatever the case I'm gonna
    try again this weekend with some of the pointers from this note. 
    
    Keith
       

    re: .11
    
    Wow, that's nice to know.  Been contemplating the pros and cons of 
    returning (via DECtransfer) to Gawd's Country and one of the items
    has been withdrawal from Manhattan bagels, nova, and/or bialys.
    
    Where, pray tell, in S'Dale be this place of wonderment?  I can
    find 'most anything there provided I use Lulubelle's as a starting
    point.  Do they have nova?
    
    Will be there this Fri thru Mon -- be nice to know I can be in the
    VOS for several days without going 'cold turkey' on bagels.
    
    Regards, Bill

    re .14 If you take Scottsdale road north (coming from Tempe) to
           Shea and take a left (heading west) proceed about 1/4 mile
           until you see Bobby McGees on the right side. Just past
           the restaurant is a shopping center and New York Bagels
           (pretty original name huh?) is in there, next to Copenhagen.
           They have all kinds of dead fish, cold cuts, assorted cream
           cheeses and very good potato salad. There's another place
           called Chompies which is "somewhere" west of this one but
           if I try to point you their way you're sure to get lost
           cause I don't remember eggsactly how to get there. Happy
           "boiled bread" eating!
    
    re .13 Ummm, lemme see...because it tastes good? Yeah that's it, it
           tastes good. Of course I could get just as excited about a
           fresh crunchy loaf of rye bread, sourdough, french, hard
           rolls or heavily seeded italian bread, if I could find them
           here. Ever had FRESH tortillas?
    
    re .12 But David, that's no fun. I like having my arms feel like
           Popeye's every once in a while, even if things don't turn 
           out right!
    
           Keith