Conference turris::cooks

	Not that it helps for the immediate goose situation, but LL Bean in
	Freeport Maine has a Game Cookbook that deals with this sort of thing.
	I gave one to a hunter friend of mine a while back, and perused it
	before wrapping.  The recipies looked great, and not too difficult
	to follow.  Bean's has a 24 hour 800 number, and the operators are
	real friendly and would probably help you figure out the order number.

						     
							- JP

    There are recipes in the standard cookbooks, like Joy.  I hope the
    bird was plucked and gutted for you!  By the way, I hear that there's
    a smokehouse in the Leominster area that does birds, and they're
    supposed to be delicious that way.

    --Louise

	Ok.  Here goes.  The L.L. Bean Game and Fish Cookbook, #8412Q,
	$19.95 ppd.  The number is 24 hour mail order number is 800-
	221-4221.

	Now, from the Gourmet Cookbook:

	Braised Wild Goose

	Clean, pluck, and singe a wild goose and stuff it, if desired.  
	Truss the legs and wings close to the body and cover the bird 
	with slices of fat salt pork.  Roast the bird in a hot oven
	(400 F) until it is well browned.  Remove the fat from the 
	roasting pan and add 1 onion and 1 carrot, both sliced, 2 or 3
	sprigs of parsley, 1 stalk of celery, 1 bay leaf, a little
	thyme, and 1 quart stock or consomme'.  Cover the pan and
	continue cooking, basting often, for 2 to 3 hours, or until
	the bird is tender.  Strain the gravy and thicken it with 1
	tablespoon arrowroot or cornstarch mixed with 2 tablespoons
	cold water.  Serve with cranberry sauce or applesauce and 
	wild rice or corn fritters.

	And for the wild fowl, the book lists:
		Roast Wild Duck
		Roast Wild Duck in Port 
		Pressed Wild Duck (duck in blood sauce)
		Grilled Ducklings Epicure (duck, marinated in wine,
			and served with Madiera Sauce)
		Salmi of Wild Duck Bourgeoise (duck in liver sauce)
		Braised Wild Duck Grand' Mere (duck stuffed with
			liver and sweetbreads)
		Roast Grouse
		Partridge in Casserole
		Partridge Drouant (pot roasted partridge)
		Partridge Cutlets (can substitute Ruffled grouse)
		Roast Pheasant
		Hungarian Roast Pheasant

	and so on with about 10 more pheasant recipes, quail, and 
	woodcock.

	If you are interested, send me mail, I'll try to get you some
	copie

	And by the way, the smokehouse that I know of in the Leominster,
	Mass area is in Fitchburg, on John Fitch Highway, near where 
	rt 2A intersects.  The place is wonderful, and they'll smoke your
	food or theirs.

						     
							- JP

Tasty bird, and definitely worth it...

You will need a rack in a deep roasting pan, the goose can be fatty.
To avoid some of the problems, trim off obvious globs of fat before
roasting.  Stuff with dried fruit and nuts soaked in port wine:

	marinade dried apricots, dried apples, pitted prunes,
	pecan halves, other fruit of choice in port wine to
	cover for at least 6 hours, stirring often.

Prepare bird as usual, rinse, dry, season cavity of bird with
garlic puree rubbed over cavity, sprinkle of pepper, etc.
Stuff bird with fruit and nuts mixture, placing extra fruit in
baking dish to heat up and serve as a side compote...note here:
candied ginger gives this stuff a nice flavor when used in
moderation.

Roast bird on rack in oven at 425 degrees for 1/2 hour, then
turn oven down to 325 degrees, and prick bird all over with
sharp fork to release fat.  Continue roasting, basting with
pan juices approx every 30 minutes for approx 1 to 1 and 1/2 hours
more depending on size of bird.... I think a good guess is
2 hours total roasting time for 7 lb. bird, a little more for
an 8 lb. bird.  Its done when the drumstick moves easily, and
juices run clear, and the bird is nicely browned...or when the
meat thermometer registers done for poultry.
Bake extra stuffing in a cassarole dish with a few pats of
butter on top for approx. 40 minutes in a conventional oven.

This bird has definite flavor and holds up well to savory and
sweet side dishes with lots of spices...


	Enjoy!

    re .1     stuffing for the goose
    
    I suggest that you do not put the dinner stuffing *in* the goose.
    Cook the stuffing separately.  Stuff the goose with plain, junk
    bread; feed this bread to the dogs later; the bread will absorb
    the excess fat.  Eastern Europeans often consider the fat a delicacy
    to be spread on bread in preference to butter, but the health of
    our hearts argues against it.   OK, OK, so the dogs may die.

When stuffing with dried fruits thoroughly marinaded in port wine, the
fruit does not absorb much of the fat, and still gets a little of the
flavor.  I DO NOT SUGGEST USING ANY KIND OF BREAD STUFFING FOR A GOOSE!
Even your dogs would find that too rich in most cases unless they are
cold weather, heavy working animals....our pampered pets of today
can't stand rich food any better than we can and often not as well
as we can.

For a "forbidden" treat, you might save some of the goose fat and
use it to saute onions and potatoes.....mind you, this is not a
healthy thing to do, but it makes GREAT hash browns!

    

	I usually __stuff__ my goose ... no pun intended [;^)
    	with quartered citrus ... orange, grapefruit, etc.
    	and then discard after roasting ....
    
    	Also, make sure the pan is DEEP ... lots of **juices**
    
    	/phil/
    

Last night's Boston Globe Food section had an article about cooking goose for 
Christmas.  Reading thru it, it didn't have a lot of good things to say about 
the old bird (too much fat, not much meat, tough, etc.).  But, in spite of the 
negatives, they claimed that a really great way to cook it is to microwave it. 
They said you would need a full size unit, unless you want to cut up the goose 
first.  The microwaves will render the fat from the skin, and leave the meat 
fully cooked, moist and tender.  You will have to remove the fat from the pan 
often, in order to have a less greasy end product.  At the end of microwave 
cooking, stick the bird in a hot oven to crisp the skin.  

They also recommended stuffing the bird with fruit to flavor the bird.  The 
fruit will not absorb the grease as bread would, so it's ok to eat it after.

This was an excerpt from someone's cookbook.  

Regarding the use of the fat:  When I cook my traditional barbequeued orange 
duck for Thanksgiving, I end up with LOTS of fat in the drip pan.  The fat can 
be mixed with bird seed, or left pure, and hung on a tree to provide birds 
with a winter treat.  Unlike us and our dogs and cats, the birds need fat to 
help survive the winter.

						     
							- JP

  In the past, we've prepared goose the same way as duck (roast with or
  without stuffing). This year, we're planning something a bit
  different. An English friend said that his family prepares big birds
  for the holidays by boning them and stuffing them with smaller birds,
  also boned. For example, you might stuff a turkey with duckling
  stuffed, in turn, with a smaller bird, which is finally stuffed with a
  "normal" stuffing. We're going to try a goose stuffed with a large
  chicken stuffed with stuffing, which will be light on grease-absorbing
  starches. Will report back here on the results.

  - Mike

    !!
    I await those results with keen interest. That sounds like a LOT
    of work. And... um ... how will you carve that creation?
    (I'm English and I confess I've never heard of such a method,
    but I don't mean by that to cast any doubts on whether it'll
    work).
    
    ...Robert
    

    That sounds really neat - I'd be tempted to stuff the big bird
    with a chicken or turkey roll, which takes a lot of the labor
    out of the method.  Sounds like it'll take a lot longer to cook,
    though, since you must assure that the inner bird gets cooked
    to the appropriate temperature.  I think stuffing does not take
    as high a temp as meat....
    
    --Louise

    Re bird within a bird:
    
    If you want to be really authentic, you should stuff the chicken
    with a Cornish game hen or something, and stuff that with - well,
    I guess we can't get small songbirds in our local supermarkets,
    can we? A quail might do, though. And stuff that with an egg...
    
    You should read what they did when using this technique with whole
    oxen! 
    
    And no, I don't know how they carved these creations - but they
    had a lot of servants to worry about things like that.

    -b

  Regarding some previous points:

  Yes, it will definitely take longer to cook. The plan is to cook it in
  a medium oven (350) for as long as it takes to get a meat thermometer
  stuck in the inner stuffing up to rare to medium rare beef
  temperature. I do worry about bacteria growing at these temperatures,
  but I figure if everything is handled the minimum amount and kept cool
  and clean, it will be ok.

  On the carving - no problem! That's the beauty of a boned bird. You
  can cut it in any direction you like. For boned stuffed chicked, we cut
  it like a sausage. Carving a boned bird is really pretty, because you
  can do it at the table with no mess or hassle.

  Concerning the amount of work, I've only attempting boning birds
  recently, having always been too intimidated. But if you can cut up a
  chicken or duck, you can bone them easily, since you already know
  where the joints and cartilage are. Of all the books which had
  instructions on how to do it, the Poultry book from the Time-Life
  series was the clearest (with good pictures) and it really worked!
  Even the very first time, it took only 30 minutes, and I work *slowly*
  (drives my wife nuts). The secret, by the way is a *very sharp* small
  knife. If you don't have a knife that you could perform surgery with,
  you're in for a lot of trouble. We keep our knives razor sharp by
  using a steel before and after every single time we use them. I
  realize it's a bit extreme, but unless you have your knives
  professionally sharpened often (which ruins them in a hurry), there's
  no other way to always have a sharp knife around.

  - Mike

    Well, I dont know where youre situated....but this past weekend
    I was in the new Purity Supreme store in Plaistow.....they had
    dressed pheasant (looked like it was about 2 lbs) and quail...three
    to a pack....they looked like dressed sparrows!!!!!
    
    Rick

  Was it worth it? Once or twice, yes. On a regular basis, no.

  There were a few things we were hoping to achieve:

  o Impressive-looking presentation
  o Tasty mingling of flavors
  o Tender meat everywhere

  It succeeded very well on the first two, but didn't really solve the
  problem of how to cook an adult bird so that the breast is tender and
  moist. Maybe it was cooked too long, or maybe it was poked too much
  (releasing too much fat), but the breast meat was a bit tough and dry.
  During the following two days, though, the meat and flavors improved
  quite a bit, and it has made delicious meals from leftovers.

  Here are the details:

  The goose was 8 lbs cleaned but with bones intact. The chicken was
  about 3 lbs. The goose was completely boned except for the wings,
  which were left intact for appearance. The chicken was completely
  boned, with wings removed. The chicken was stuffed with a stuffing
  made from chestnuts, croutons, tangerines, celery, onions, sage,
  pepper and salt (and a bit of stock). Then, the chicken was placed
  inside the goose, and the remaining space filled with more stuffing,
  plus slices of apple and tangerine sections. Neither the goose nor the
  chicken were seasoned in any other way. The skin of the goose was
  poked many times with a sharp knife to allow the fat to drain.

  The goose was then placed on a V-shaped rack in a moderate oven (325)
  for about 3-1/2 hours, starting breast down, and turned every 50
  minutes or so, finishing the last half hour breast up, placing a meat
  thermometer into the inner stuffing for this last period. We removed
  it from the oven when the thermometer read 165, and let it sit for 20
  minutes before cutting. We poured off the 3-1/2 cups of fat that had
  drained into the pan, and made a sauce with the drippings simply by
  adding some water to the pan, and some roux (flour cooked in goose
  fat) to thicken. It made almost 2 cups of the most delicious sauce.

  It was served with small red potatoes which were baked in the pan with
  the goose during the last 45 minutes, broccoli with cheddar sauce, and
  cranberry relish. We also had a red burgundy wine which went very well
  with the meal.

  So the result was that it was very pretty and tasty, definitely not
  too greasy (a typical problem with goose), with all the meat being
  very good except for the breast of the goose. Carving was trivial, and
  has made preparing leftovers very easy. For the hour or so that it
  took to bone both birds, I'd say it's worth it for a special meal like
  Christmas dinner. Next year, we'll try something different, although
  we plan to try it sometime on a turkey roasted in a bag.

    
    Special is right!
    
    I have boned several turkeys after watching Julia (the slob) do
    it on the tele several years ago.  I agree with mike you must have
    a full compliment of very sharp knives.  I send my entire collection
    out once a year to the guys that pull up behind good resturants
    and sharpen the knives of the chefs.  Hollow ground is a must as
    are steels as Mike described.  an occasional swipe across a fine
    stone helps also.  Btw... I have always left the lower leg intact
    when boning turkeys. (don't forget the paper hat for the foot.
    
    I can't wait to try the bird within a bird idea - sounds GREAT!
    
    Oh yeh, the Tatnick meat market in Worcester has or can get almost
    anything you can imagine.

         I HAVE COOKED WILD GOOSE BEFORE.  IT HAD TO BE MARINATED OVERNIGHT
    IN A BAG OF WINE, ONIONS, AND SPICES.  THEN, YOU JUST COOK IT LIKE
    A TURKEY.
    
         HOPE THIS HELPS.
    
    DIANE
    

  You can use any cooking procedure for a goose (not a wild goose,
  though) that you'd use for a duck. I like them roasted on a rotisserie
  best, but other methods work fine, too.

  Remove all the fat you can from under the skin, and poke the skin all
  over with the tip of a sharp knife. This will let the fat drain out as
  it's cooking. Then, I baste it (before and during roasting) with a
  mixture of soy sauce, chopped garlic, orange rind and Grand Marnier. I
  roast it at medium - about 375. I've yet to find a way to prevent the
  breast meat from drying out a little when the thighs and drumsticks
  are done. A lot seems to depend on the bird itself. Stuffing sometimes
  helps, but not all the time. A friend of mine who used to prepare duck
  in a restaurant said that he would roast it on a bed of celery. I
  haven't tried this, yet, but he claimed it worked great.

  One thing you should watch for is the weight of the bird. A duck or
  goose won't serve the same number of people per pound as will a turkey
  or a chicken, because it loses a lot of fat while cooking. On the
  other hand, the meat is much richer (and there's no "white" meat), so
  you don't need as much per person. With chicken, I usually figure 1
  pound (uncooked weight) per person. With a duck or goose I use 1.5
  pounds or more per person.

    It has been a few years since I last cooked a goose, but just one
    word of advice: look out for the fat.  When you move the pan around
    as you baste, and when you finally remove the goose from the oven,
    there as a LOT of hot, scalding fat.  BE CAREFUL.  (and enjoy)
    
    Bill

    	And now for the BIG question. Where can I buy the goose?
    	I live close to Boston and work in Marlborough/Maynard..

    	Peter

    Mellow Lane Turkey Farm in Marlboro sell birds other then turkeys.
    Call them nd find out what they sell.
    
    Linda
    

    
    re .5
    
    I ordered a frozen goose from DeLuca's Market on Charles Street (at
    the base of Beacon Hill) near the Beacon Street intersection.  It
    was large (13 lbs.) and very good.  So, if the frozen part is acceptable
    to you, give them a call.  (They also have fabulous muffins ...
    mmmmmmmm).
    
    A hint on cooking -- not to sound sacrilegious --  use a microwave!
    It's very effective at cooking the greasy fat out of the goose while
    not overcooking the meat!  I removed over 5 cups of fat from my
    13 pounder and then used the oven to brown the bird. Really very
    easy and the meat was juicy, but not greasy.  Got the idea from
    the Boston Globe Food pages a few years back.
    

RE: .5

There is a meat shop in the Faneul Hall marketplace (I forget if it's in
F. Hall or Quincy Market building) that stocks game (pheasant, quail) and also
geese and ducks.  They even have live geese for sale around the holiday season.

--PSW

    The Market Basket on Main Street in Andover has plenty of geese
    and ducks.  Sadly, they're frozen instead of fresh, but they're
    there.  I had considered calling a local turkey farm to see if they
    either had fresh geese/ducks or knew who did; if I ever do I'll
    post the results here.
    
    --Karen

    For a chuckle about cooking your goose, check out Topic 1436
    in the EATS conference.
    
    Press KP7 to add EATS to your notebook.
    
    - Larry

	Rep .0


	Here's a classic way of doing breast of goose,

	Heat a large frying pan and then add about 1-2 Tblsp of olive oil.
	Then add 2-4 Tblsp of minced shallots. Fry for 5-10 minutes per side
	depending on the thickness. You want to cook them to medium or slightly
	past. Some people like them medium-rare but I prefer them slightly
	more cooked. Remove the breast from the pan and cover with foil.
	Deglaze the pan with 3-4 Tblsp brandy<cognac, calvados, apricot brandy, ...>
	Add 1/2 Cup goose stock if you have it or chicken stock, 2 Tblsp red 
 	currant or raspberry jelly, 1/2 tsp cornstarch dissolved in 2 Tblsp
	dry white wine. Reduce the sauce until it coats a spoon.

	Slice the breast on the diagonal across the grain of the meat in
	1/4" slices. Place a small amount of the sauce on the serving place
	and arrange the slices on it. Serve the extra sauce on the side.

	I would suggest serving scalloped potatoes and sauteed red cabbage 
	with the goose and wash it all down with a nice pinot noir.


	-mike
 

    Youcan move this, mods if you want....
    
    one thing we did with goose meat when I was a kid was mainate it and
    then bbq it. It was great! It takes a marinade very well.
         

    This year, as with last year, we had goose for our christmas dinner.
    I'm always a little disappointed with recipes for roast goose. I've
    tried a couple and the stuffings (especially the bacon/bread ones) have 
    not been to our taste. So this year I tried something a little different.
    
    I prepared a seasoned salt, comprising of
    
    Salt	     about 2 TBS
    Pepper	     several good turns of the pepper mill
    Ground Bay	     about 1 desert spoon
    Ground Coriander about 1 desert spoon
    Ground Ginger    about 1 tsp
    
    Then....
    Wash the goose and remove as much fat from the cavity as possible.
    Pour boiling water over the goose to 'separate' the skin from the
    fat; doing this also makes it easier to pull the odd quill from the
    bird left in by the pluckers; a fact I only learn't AFTER spending 45
    minutes struggling with the quills. Pat the skin and cavity of the
    goose dry with kitchen towels.
    
    Take some of the seasoned salt and spread inside the cavity of the
    goose. Now the fun bit, you'll need a sharp knife for this. Work your
    fingers through the neck of the goose and under the fat, separating the
    fat (hence skin) from the breast of the goose. Unlike a chicken, the
    fat/skin is very well connected to the breast and you'll need a sharp
    knife to separate the two.
    
    When you've gone as far as the goose or your patience/skill allows
    simply rub some of the seasoned salt into the breast of the goose i.e.
    underneath the fat/skin. NB next year, with my new super sharp knife, I
    hope to make it as far as the thighs. When you've done this, move to
    the outside of the bird and rub the salt, in the conventional manner,  
    into the the skin of the goose.
    
    I then cut up a large cooking apple and half filled the goose cavity with 
    it, but I didn't bother with any of the fancy suffing mixtures. I also
    don't bother trussing the bird, but I do protect wing tips with
    aluminium foil.
    
    To roast, put bird on roasting rack over a deep (1.5"-2" 35-50mm)
    roasting tray. Roast, uncovered at 400F (200C) for about 20 minutes,
    then add 1 pint water or stock to roasting tray and cover bird with
    aluminium foil. Cook at 325F (170C) for 15 minutes a pound; turning and
    basting bird at least once. 20-30 minutes before end of roasting time,
    remove foil to brown bird. Also, an hour before the end of roasting
    time, remove some of the goose fat, spread over peeled potatoes, roast
    the potatoes.
    
    Served with Apple sauce, brocolli and a Morel and cultivated mushroom
    sauce made with the leavings of the goose. The apple sauce goes well
    with the goose, while the mushroom sauce goes well with both the goose
    and roast potatoes.
    
    The verdict of the McDonald family: Superb.
    
    NOTES: I have a fan oven, and even lowering the 'conventional' roasting
    temperature by 20C I still found the bird was cooked 50 minutes before
    it was supposed to be, and this calculating cooking time at 15 minutes
    a pound for an eleven pound bird. One of my cooking books recommended
    20 minutes at 200C followed by 20-25 minutes a pound. The bird would
    have come out bone dry, as it was it was almost over done.
    
    The bird I cooked was of the frozen variety. However, I was dead
    surprised by how LITTLE fat came out of it. I enthusiatically pierced
    the skin all over, there was virtually no fat on the cooked bird
    (zero on the breast), and yet I only ended up with a pint of fat. Last
    year's nine pound goose fetched up with 1.5 pints of fat. For the UK
    readership, I bought the goose from ASDA (lower Earley) and I'm kicking
    myself for not retaining the name of the farm from which the bird came
    from. The goose was far cheaper than from Sainsbury's.
    
    Angus  
    PS For my next goose I might try adding some cumin and/or ground garlic
    to the seasoned salt. I might also try thinly slicing a Lemon or
    Orange or apple and inserting some slices between the skin and flesh of
    the bird; thus imparting the flavour and acidity of the fruits to the
    goose; I'll try this with chicken first.

    Angus, I basted our Christmas goose with a mixture of a spiced
    Christmas Ale and Gran Marnier (sp?).  It was stuffed with a mixture of
    basamati rice, wild rice, hazelnuts, chestnuts, and dried fruits.  It
    came out great.

    
    I have been bitten by the same thing when doing a duck or goose.
    An 11 lbs goose was overcooked after 2 hours @400.
    
    Are these different birds from your fathers birds?
    
    re .30 did you roast the potatoes in the same pan as the 
    goose?
    
    Peter

    re .31 This looks good. I might give it a whirl next time.
    
    re .32 I roasted the potatoes in a separate pan. The goose was on the
    low rack in my oven, the roast potatoes on a cookie tray on the highest
    rack. I make 'low' fat roast potatoes: Peel the potatoes, then cut
    them up into chunks say 2 1/2" to 3" (65mm - 75mm); naturally I don't
    cut up small potatoes. Pour a desert spoon or tablespoon (depending on
    how evil your're feeling) of oil onto a cookie tray. Use a pastry brush
    to spread some of the oil over the cookie tray. Then, use the pastry
    brush to brush a thin coating of oil onto each potato chunk and place
    the potatoes onto the cookie tray. Put whole lot into oven.
    
    The potatoes cook really quickly (30-45 minutes or an hour if the
    chunks are quite large) and come out with a nice golden skin, are dead
    soft and fluffy inside, and don't takes ages and ages to cook. In the
    fan oven I have to turn the tray through 180 degrees so as to get an
    even browning. I normally use olive oil or left over sunflower oil used
    for other dishes. I  maybe hallucinating, but I think the goose fat
    gave the potatoes a deeper golden finish. I can check on this as I
    saved the goose fat; its in a jar in the fridge.
    
    Angus
         

�    I have been bitten by the same thing when doing a duck or goose.
�    An 11 lbs goose was overcooked after 2 hours @400.
    
    I'd expect so.  You should only cook the goose at 400�F for the first
    half hour.  You should then turn the oven down to 325-350�F.
    
�    re .30 did you roast the potatoes in the same pan as the 
�    goose?
    
    I don't know about .30, but I haven't.  The goose throws off too much
    fat for the potatoes, plus when I did it I basted the goose with more
    than just the pan drippings.

    Safeways, Reading branch, Basingstoke road, are selling off their frozen
    goose at half price. I think this works out at about 90p a pound. A
    4.42 Kg (roughly 9 lb) bird was somewhere around �8.75. There were
    about ten or so left on Tuesday, 7th. The Best before date is March
    1996. I have a feeling someone cocked up on the ordering front. Near
    the beginning of January we noticed the 'Goose' bit of the freezer go
    from the normal half a dozen or so birds to about 30 birds. You'd
    expect this to happen before Christmas, not after.
    
    I wonder if a similar cockup occured at the Bracknel branch?
    
    In any case, we now have our Christmas 1995 Goose in t'freezer.
    
    Angus