Conference turris::bridge

  If partner were barred, I'd just bid 3NT as the percentage move.

  I am deeply pessimistic about this hand for slam.  I have 13 points,
 partner 18 or 19.  I have no long suit, and the only long suit partner
 can have is clubs, in which I have no cards.  Queens make up half my
 hand, and queens are overvalued for slam purposes.  The heart 10 is nice,
 the club/diamond spots aren't.

  As you know, I'm not a big Blackwood fan. Here, I'd bid 4NT if it is
 quantitative, giving partner an out.  But in my gut I wonder if this hand
 is worth any try at all.  With an aggressive partner, I might just bid 3NT.
 Particularly at matchpoints.

  By the way, it is useful to have an agreement that allows both an ace-ask
 and a quantitative try.  For example, you could agree that only 4NT as a
 jump is Blackwood.  In that case, you could try 3D or 3C and inch up to 4NT,
 and partner might get the idea.  Talk it over with partner.

  bb

I'm much of the same mind as BB. I suspect if there is any slam it is in a 4-3
heart fit. Perhaps something like:
	AKxx
	AJx
	Kx
	Axxx
But that's all magic.

I will give 3D a try followed by 3N over a major. I will also pass 3N. I'm
willing to take my chances on 4H scoring a extra trick over 3N if partner plays
me for the a fifth heart. If partner get excited and starts to get slam
interest, I think I'm better placed than a quatitative 4N raise.

I am more pessimistic than bb or Bob. When there is no source of
tricks in either hand it takes 34 HCP (not the advertised 33) to
make slam in NT. I'd just bid 3NT and expect to beat the field
most of the time.

Dave

    I'm pessimistic too. Here 2N would be on 17-18 (or bad 19) HCP.
    Will try 3D/2N to show values in excess for 3N. If pard moves to
    3H, then 3N. If he re-bids C (4C, unlikely), there may be a chance 
    for 6C, but it's a long shot and anti-field.

holding:  S: Q6	 H: KQT4  D: AQ83  C: 984
after 1C-1H-2N-???   (opponents silent)
BLACKWOOD????  You must be kidding.   That is the kind of thinking that
gives my favorite slam try convention a bad name!!  The first issue is
to decide whether this hand is even worth a slam try.  Assuming 2N rebid
shows 18-19 HCPs balanced, I don't really think this hand is worth a
slam try at all and would probably just bid 3N.  But if you want to be
super-aggressive (because you are far behind in the match), then the
only reasonable try is 4NT  *natural*.  Would anyone think that 4N here
would be Blackwood?  I hope not.  If responder had a strong heart hand
and wanted to ask for key cards, he would bid 3H (forcing) over 2N to
set the strain and then 4S (kickback) at his next turn.
If he just wanted to ask for aces over 2N (hard to imagine the hand for
this unless looking for a grand maybe), then one might use 4C/2N as
Gerber.  The  other reasonable use for 4C would be as a "splinter in
support of myself" showing stiff club, 6+ hearts and slam interest if
partner doesn't have too much club wastage.  In that case, you ask for
aces by starting with 3C (Wolff relay forcing 3D from partner) and then
bidding 4N (or something else at the 4 level by agreement).
What does responder do if he has slam interest in *clubs*?  He first
bids 3C (Wolff relay again) and then removes 3D to 3N.  This by
agreement shows willingness to play 3N but with some slam interest in
clubs if partner's hand is suitable.
Note: the basic use of Wolff 3C is to sign off at 3D,3H,3S, or (rarely)
4C.  But as a side benefit it also opens the possibility of all these
"unusual" sequences where responder starts with 3C Wolff but follows
with 3N or a bid higher than 4C which can be assigned special meanings
of your choice.
3D/2N is used as a "checkback" for 3 card support or (by agreement) 4 in
the other major.
3H or 3S over 2N rebid are game forcing, slam interest (with 6+ card
suit and no slam interest, just jump to 4 of your suit over 2N).
      Craig  	

  As SK points out, it partly depends on strength requirements.  If your
 partner is prone to upgrade 17-point hands with 5 clubs, you really can't
 risk more than a sniff here.  Consider a few hands.  If partner has, say,
 Axx Axx Jxx AKQJ, you have bad troubles after a spade through.  Or opposite
 Axx AJx Kxx AQxx (or even Axx AJ Kxx AQxxx).

  On the other hand, you would be a favorite opposite AKx Axx Kxx AJ10x.  It's
 worse without the C10, but still playable.  So it's hard for partner to
 tell the 20% ones from the 60%.

  bb

Even if the 2NT bid shows up to 20HCP, I stand pat at 3NT. I'm wrong
only when partner has 5 clubs, and 1C openers are frequently far
shorter than 5.

Dave

   The problem that we had at the table, which none of you seemed to
   have, was to stay out of slam. I think we need a darker tint
   on our rose colored glasses, when we look at possible slam hands.
   With a minimum of 31 HCP in the combined hands and a maximum of
   33 (our 2N starts at 21) and holding all the aces and two kings
   partner exuberantly bid on to slam after he thought I might have
   a 5 card club suit, because of my mistaken response to his Stayman
   enquiry.


    Dlr: E
    Vul: Both
    		S K9
    		H 975
    		D K9752
    		C Q65
    S Q6			S A73
    H KQT4			H AJ2
    D AQ83			D JT6
    C 984			C AKJ3
    		S JT8542
    		H 863
    		D 4
    		C T72

   I was East at our table and wound up playing in 6N. With the SJ
   led and covered twice, I ducked and won the second spade. Of course,
   I now needed two finesses to work and was doomed, when my DJ 
   lost to North's K. Fortunately, North did not have a Spade to
   lead back but down 1 was well below average, so a number of people
   managed to stay out of the slam.

   Too bad, I couldn't get West to play the hand!
    

FWIW, a 3D call might have gotten to a heart contract which would have made 6!

Of course it doesn't prove much.

  Yeah, I sort of disagree with the "no try" school.  Change partner
 to AJx AJx KJ AJ10xx, or some other supermax.  You're up to 75%.

  But you cannot afford to get beyond 4NT opposite an 18-pt 4333.  3D or 3C
 is just the sort of fishing expedition that might hook a slam.

  bb

I haven't seen this mentioned before, possibly because noone
else thought it relevant, but I think a fair amount of the
problem here is responder's first call. Even playing a Walsh
style the normal response to 1C is 1D. At his second call he
can bid 3H. Now, he's already shown a hand better than a simple
raise to 3NT. Many Walsh bidders in this area play that he's shown 
a hand that he was going to force to game with, others at least a 
limit raise. When responder is of the first school he passes 
partner's signoff happily, knowing he's gotten his whole hand off 
his chest.If he belongs to the second school and wants to be 
super-agressive he can raise 3NT to 4 when opener signs off.
I think that's excessive, but at least opener will have some
sort of clue about which cards are working, what partner's length
is in the reds, etc... 

Jay

  Yes, JK, 1D is how I was taught, but I think the moderns bid 1H.  I am
 even more distressed to hear BC say he would rebid 2NT with AKxx AJx Kx Axxx.
 I know CZ would do this, too.  I wouldn't.  I'd bid a spade.

  bb

Mr. BB, sir. I didn't say that I would bid 2N.

I observed that the responder had bypassed a 1D call and supposed that kind of
style could have also "hid" a spade suit to bid 2N.

I would have bid 1D with the given responding hand even playing Walsh since the
hand is good enough. I would also have rebid 1S with AKxx AJx Kx Axxx.

To be completely honest though, if the hand was just a tad stonger, say AKxx
AJx Kx AJxx I probably would bid 2N (my 2N openers show 20+). Too many hands
where partner has, say, xxx KTxxx xxx Kx and has to pass 1S but would yield a
good MP play for game.

    Seeing that interest in this one has been high (or has the lack of
    local tournaments caused a dearth of hands :-) let me confess that
    I didn't mean to offend any one's bidding sensibilities by providing
    the bidding sequence of 1C-1H-2NT. I just used it to communicate the
    problem that tripped partner and me up given the information that
    East has a balanced 18-20 HCP, West has 13 HCP and East misbid
    his hand, when West made a Stayman inquiry:
    
    Obviously, if we had followed the latest JK-BB bidding thread, we
    might have ended up in 6D or 6H, both declared by West, both making,
    depending on which suit East chose to support. So how would this go:
    1C-1D-1S(??)-2H-3D or 3H-4N-(3 Aces)-6D or 6H? or
    1C-1D-2S(??)-3H-4D or 4H-4N-(3 Aces)-6D or 6H? or
    1C-1S-2N-3D or 3HH-4H-4N-(3 Aces)-6D or 6HH?
    
    The actual bidding went:
    
    S Q6			S A73
    H KQT4			H AJ2
    D AQ83			D JT6
    C 984			C AKJ3

    				1C (17+ if unbalanced, 18+ if balanced)
    1S (3 controls)		1N (18-20 balanced)
    2C (Stayman)		3C (thinking clubs were real)
    6N (optimism in the fog)
    
    Shekhar

re: 1947.12 where BB chastises:
    "I am  even more distressed to hear BC say he would rebid 2NT with
AKxx AJx Kx Axxx.
     I know CZ would do this, too.  I wouldn't.  I'd bid a spade."

Please allow CZ to shock you with his aberrent views:
     1. up the line bidding vs. Walsh bypass
         Believe it or not, even though all my partners insist on the
"bypass" style, I
         secretly have always thought "up the line" is more logical.
I'm certain that
         if skipping diamonds is better it's only because of competitive
considerations.
         If we could be sure that the opponents would pass throughout,
there would be
         no case for the Walsh bypass style, IMHO.
         Nevertheless, playing Walsh, I believe that one is supposed to
respond 1D 
         when holding a 4 card major only with 5+ diamonds (and an
opening bid).  As
         a passed hand, I will respond 1D with a 4 card major and 5+
diamonds if I have
         invitational values.  Therefore, playing Walsh, I would not
respond 1D with the
         given  Q6-KQT4-AQ83-984.  The problem is if partner rebids,
say, 1N, a 2H reverse by
         you now will imply longer diamonds.
     2. I most definitely would not rebid 2N with AKxx-AJx-Kx-Axxx after
1C-1H, although I
         would after 1C-1D (since responder has denied a 4 card major
unless he has opening
         values).  After 1C-1H, with this hand I would rebid *2* spades
and I think this is
         clear-cut.  My strength and heart support are sufficient that
I'm definitely willing to force
         to game with this hand.  Is this crazy?
                CraigZa

	I was laid up with a bad back all last week, so it seems I missed
	quite a discussion.

	Over 1C-1H-2N, partner and I play a variation of Wolff sign-offs:

	3C	Siginifies a weak hand.  Asks for 3-card heart support, 3D
		is Neg, and partner is supposed to pass responder's next bid.
		(I suppose we should have other meanings for jumps or
		 game bids after 3D)

	3D	Artificial checkback for 3-card heart support or 4-card
		spade suit.  Game forcing, so 3N denies 3 hearts and 4 spades.

	3H	Forcing, sets trump, suggests slam.  Asks for a cuebid.

	3N	Sign-off

	4C	Gerber

	4H	Sign-off

	4N	Quantitative

	(There are minor variations in the repsonses when the auction starts
	 1C-1D-2N and 1m-1S-2N)

	Assuming an 18-19 pt 2NT rebid, my flat 13-HCP doesn't give me
	much confidence is slam.  If you're going make any bid other than
	3NT with this hand, I guess it would be 4NT, quantitative, passing
	the blame back to partner if he goes on.

	As far as bypassing the minor goes, we don't play that style, and
	I'd be surprised to see LHO bid when we have most of the points in
	the deck.  But I *was* under the impression that you would only
	bypass diamonds when you didn't have GF strength.  So I'd bid 1D
	over 1C, and we would end up using one of our variants:

	1C-1D-2N-?

	3C!	Checkback Stayman, no indication of strength
	3D	Sign-off
	4C/4N	As before

	Skiping ahead, I see our auction would have been 1C-1D-2N-3C!-3D!-3N,
	although 4N quantitative instead of 3C checkback would be allowed if
	you want to be pushy.  I still don't like it.