Conference trucks::football;1

So what are the rumours around the England team for tomorrow? Who's going to 
be in it I mean! Platt or Redknapp instead of Ince? Presumably there won't be 
any other changes?

g

    There are doubts over Adams (flare up of knee) and Anderton
    (hamstring). Redknapp is almost certainly out. Current newspaper
    betting is that the line up will be:
    
    Seaman
    
    Neville, Southgate, Adams, Pearce
    
    Gascoigne, Platt, McMannanman, Stone
    
    Shearer, Sherringham
    
    This is on the basis that Adams looks 80-20 OK and Anderton looks 50-50
    
    Paul

    Shearer took a knock in the game against Holland so could be doubtful
    as a starter.
    
    
                      Stretch.
    
              

Thanks chaps,

>    Shearer took a knock in the game against Holland so could be doubtful
>    as a starter.
    
Shearer will play if he has to come on with crutches!    
              
g

    It's a long story but I watched todays two games in different states of
    the U.S but anyway here's the news
    
    England 0 Spain 0 after 120 mins - England win 4-2 on pens
    
    An excellent game - some great saves and some amazing misses including
    one by Shearer. I thought Englands back four was excellent (neville
    will miss the semi) though the midfield with Platt in for Ince was
    kind of outplayed and Anderton and Mcmanaman kept getting in each
    others way. Some spaniards and scots who were in the bar for this game
    seemed convinced that one of spains disallowed goals was actually not
    offside and that they should have a penalty also. spain has the best of
    the first half but lost their way after some strange half-time
    substitutions taking off bot Salinas and another player who I forget
    the name of but he was the one who having beat the england defence 
    managed to hit the ball to seaman instead of scoring. england had the
    better of the second half with one class move by gascoigne and somne
    mazy runs by mcmanaman - the game probably should have finished 3-3 and
    extra time was nerve wracking to watch.
    
    the penaltys saw englans score all 4 of their shots with a very
    exuberant post goal celebration by pearce - spain hit the bar with one
    of theirs and seaman saved the last. well a tough game to lose - are
    England ready for Germany in the semis?
    
    Game 2 was France v Holland and I actually have no idea how the game
    finished as I got on a plane just after the 90 minutes had finished 0-0
    and attempts to find the score on TV have failed. It wasn't as good a
    game as England's but I though Holland edged it and almost stole it
    twice in the last minutes - a free kick (that maybe should have been a 
    penalty for handball) deflected over a french player and hit the side
    post and then a run through on goal saw the the ball bounce after a
    shot over the bar. Holland looked a lot better than earlier in the
    tournament with Kluivert up front - France elected to leave out Dugarry
    who came on in the 2nd half only to leave 15 mins later injured!
    
    Regards
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

Why qualifying, if the decision of referees make semifinals.

Germany - Croatia: scandalous decisions of referee Sundell, red card ag.
Croatia, equal fouls of Germany - nothing.
"RED - Card" foul of Klinsmann at Vlaovic in 10th minute - yellow !!

2:1 of Germany after a foul of Babbel at Jerkan.


England - Spain -  sorry, my English friends, the goal of Spain was never, 
never offside - 1st error of referee Batta.

Joke in the - I think - 54th minute:  Foul of Gascoigne , instead of penalty
for Spain, yellow card against the Spanish forward !!

The Italian "Corriere dello Sport" writes yesterday:
"..Scandalous whistles has ruined the EC.." - I must agree.


England-Germany: Germany had more luck than England (against Italy and
Croatia), England had played very well in his group.
Therefore I wish England the best to come to the final (against France).

Heribert

    
    France - Netherlands   0:0  5-4  Penalties.
    
    Very tough game, mainly "blocked" in the center of the field. 
    Holland could have scored during the last 5 minutes with a free kick on
    the bar side, and 2 minutes later a great save from Lama on Seedorf.
    
    During extra-time, France had its best occasions, in particular a 
    spectacular save from Van Der Sar on Djorkaeff. 
    
    The 5 French penalty shooters got it whereas the Seedorf's one was
    saved by Lama. In fact, Karembeu (Seedorf's mate at Sampdoria)
    indicated to Lama the side where to go...
    
    We (the French) won, but I can tell you that I am very disappointed 
    by this team, too serious, not creative, too boring...
    And frankly, I am fed up by the general auto satidfaction in France by
    of course coach and players and also by the press which forgot that
    they got their part of luck. Even in france wins the tournament, this
    team is miles away from the Platini's one in 1984.
    
    Pierre-Yves  

    Well done to England, but lads, it should have been 2-0 to Spain. The
    2nd `off-side' goal was definitely on-side and Gascoigne's tackle on
    the Spanish forward was an absolute stone-wall penalty. I think England
    have a definite chance against the Germans without Klinsmann, (who
    should have walked as well for his assault on Vlaovic)....
    
    Ray....

    
    ..Not sure the heart can stand much more of this. Spain were the better
    team imo and we had some luck but in the end the players kept their
    nerve. 
    
    Germany were poor yesterday, but as usual, got a result. Its going to
    be another tight game. I'll believe Klinsmann's not playing when I see
    him sitting in the stands at 19:30.
    
    Dave...
     

    Solid defensive show by England against a team using up the space
    in midfield very well, but well short of class in front of goal. Agree
    with everyone else about the "goal" but while it was a mistake, it
    wasn't an wild howler like some in the tournemant, it was tight and my
    first reaction was that he was well off side.
    
    As for the "penalty", sorry I thought the ref saw it right. Gascoigne
    pulled his leg away slightly and Alfonso threw himself over it.
    
    Spain shaded it on percentage of play but England won it by chances
    created. Zubizareta had far more to do than Seaman with good saves from
    Shearer, Adams & Gascoigne (twice) plus misses from Shearer &
    Sheringham. Stunning penalties from England tho' especially Pearce's.
    
    As for the others, France/Holland seemed dull but that was probably
    because all the emotion was gone after England! Only seen bits of the
    other two but it seems the refs ruined them, plus Germany & Croatia
    seemed to want to restart something in the Balkans.
    
    Roll on Wednesday night and 20m+ on TV willing England to the final.
    
    Paul

    In all fairness, I have to sympathize with the Spanish. Of the two
    "disallowed" goals, I thought Kiko's was offside (close, but the TV
    replay showed that the defence came out just in time); the goal by
    Julio Salinas on the other hand was perfectly valid (the ball was
    miskicked to him by Hierro and he was definitely in an offside
    position).
    
    As for the penalties, I thought the referee was right in booking
    Alfonso (it looked to me like Gascoigne didn't make contact...so if
    Alfonso went down, a yellow card seems fair enough). Likewise, I think
    it would have taken a harsh referee to give a penalty against Adams for
    the tangle with Caminero. However, Southgate's challenge on Alfonso(?)
    looked very suspect. England might have had a penalty in extra time for
    the foul on Stone, but I think the referee was probably influenced by
    his earlier mistake(s) in favour of England.
    
    That takes care of the controversial episodes. As regards the game
    itself, I thought it was very exciting. The football wasn't brilliant,
    but it certainly had me on the edge of my seat. England's performance
    can be described as no better than "gritty". SPain have very few stars,
    but they're a very compact little team with tremendous pride. I was
    amazed at Clemente's decision to play Julio Salinas; most teams who
    play against England have now twigged that the secret is to not give
    Tony Adams anyone to mark! Most of the danger for England came from
    pyers running from deep positions with the ball (Kiko, Caminero,
    Sergi). For the record, I thought that England's best players were
    Southgate (peerless in defence, and it's refreshing to see a
    centre-back who can actually take on an opposing full-back and get in a
    good cross), closely followed by Pearce (I realised England were going
    to win after just half an hour when I saw Pearce produce a good cross
    with his RIGHT foot!)
    
    Still, few teams desrve to win EVERY game in a major championship.
    Spain played much better against England than in their group matches
    (the referee did THEM some favours against Bulgaria and Romania), so I
    guess it all evens out in the end (from the Book of Football Cliches,
    ch3, para 4) ;-)
    
>The Italian "Corriere dello Sport" writes yesterday:
>"..Scandalous whistles has ruined the EC.." - I must agree.
    
    ALL the Italian newspapers that I saw yesterday thought it was a
    poor/appalling game, "not worthy of a European Championship 
    quarter-final". The "Corriere Della Sera" even ran an editorial in
    which they commented: "It's sickening to see countries whose football
    is so manifestly inferior to ours making headway in the tournament...".
    Of course, this will continue until the final, accompanied by the usual
    speculation regarding which players would be good enough to play in the
    "campionato pi� bello del mondo".
    
    Lastly, full marks to the Spaniards for accepting defeat so sportingly
    (at least in the reports I heard). There was very little between the
    two sides, but the Spans certainly had something to recriminate. The 
    only complaint Clemente had was about Gazza's behaviour during the
    Spanish national anthem; I didn't get to the TV in time, but apparently
    he did some warming-up exercises, bent down to tie his bootlaces, etc.  
    If that was the case, then Clemente has got every right to complain.
    
    Dom 

    
    The game is being thrown down the toilet by FIFA and UEFA by totally
    amatuer refereeing and line decisions. Spain were denied a perfectly
    good goal in the first half which would have changed the complexion
    (though not necessarily the end result) of the game. Germany were
    kicked off the pitch yesterday by a Croation team where Kalashnikovs
    would not been out of place. The referee, Krug, was abysmal in the
    match last night.....
    
    	To me there is only one quick solution (knowing that a complete
    overhaul of referees would take years) and that is...increase the
    weight of the BALL at the senior level. It is obvious that laws of the
    game mixed with a majority of players instincts to continually look for
    fouls are contributing to the demolition of most games into a stop
    start game similar to American football (so much for the theory that
    soccer is supposed to be the more flowing game).
    
    	FIFA introduced this new ball some tournaments ago and the level of
    shooting and set piece free kicks has been abysmal. If players are
    fitter these days and more countries have access to good training
    facilities then this weight difference in the ball should not be a
    problem as far as passing or controlling the ball. Most yellow/red cards
    are for fouls where the ball 'takes off' at the mere feather of a touch
    which even Franz Beckenbauer would have trouble in surviving a tournament
    without being booked.
    
    	There will always be cynical fouls in the game but it is THESE that
    should be isolated and not merged into tackles that are 'supposed' to
    be part of the 'so-called' physical aspect of the game.
    
    To coin a phrase...at the moment....
    
    	"I do NOT love this game !!!"
    
    Dezzz. 
    
    
       

	English fans are upset that there are only 3000 tickets available
	for Wednesday's semi final. The other 67,000 spare seats have beach 
	towels on them.

	Phil.

    
    Beach towels ??? Yes I heard that one yesterday on 5 Live...visions of
    the Carlberg advert making a re-appearance this week....
    
    Dezzz.

maybe it's because the Germans had more confidence in
their team reaching the semi's.
the jumping on the band wagon english don't deserve tickets.

    Re -1  :-) !!
    
    Re -2 & 3
    
    The comments of the Italian press are rather amusing to say the least.
    Italy went out so everyone else must be awful and a blot on the
    beautiful game (like Tassotti in USA 94?) Italy played very attractive
    football but did not have a quality striker to score when needed. The
    other teams in their group played better than they did - full stop.
    
    As for the refs, they have been variable to say the least. I saw the
    fouls for the Czech yellow cards on TV and agree with Hansen & Gullit
    that only the last (2nd yellow for the red) was anywhere near deserved.
    Similarly, Bilic should have gone for his kick at a German player, as
    should have Klinsman, as should have the German keeper for the penalty
    foul against Italy.
    
    The referee in the Holland-France match was dire. The Dutch should have
    had a penalty for Desailly's hand ball, and the ref could not have been
    better placed! Then Bogarde, who was on a yellow, chops a French player
    on the edge of the box, free kick, but no second yellow card! Then the
    ref distracts Seedorf in the middle of his penalty!!
    
    The crack down on fouls should ultimately make for a much more free
    flowing game, but must not be allowed to take the physical hustle &
    bustle out of the game. If it removes the niggly fouls that break up
    open play, and the cynical professional challenges it will be great.
    
    As for the balls - well the corners & free kicks have been generally
    poor. Much of it seems to be down to lack of imagination (the
    wonderfully attractive Bulgarian's "pile drivers" from 50 yards!) and
    poor technique, but some must be down to the ball.
    
    Paul

    To those of you who think that Gascoigne's tackle on the Spanish
    forward was a penalty, may I suggest you visit:-
    
    KRAKAR::CROWN_GREEN_BOWLS
    
    as you obviously know $%^& all about football.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    So who's going to take over the right back spot in the absence of Gary
    Neville...Sol Campbell? Or can brother Phil play on the right too?
    
    Dom 

    It's more than likely to be Phil.
    
    
    CHARLEY

England's performance on Saturday was always going to be a disappointment 
after the Dutch game - thankfully, we escaped. Marvellous penalties, very un- 
English!

I'm not going to join in the referee-bashing though (well, not much!). It's 
too easy to sit behind 6 slow motion cameras and criticise the men on the 
pitch. The only exception I want to make was why did the ref not send off the 
Croatian who kicked Ziege as he was lying on the penalty spot? My paper today  
has a huge colour picture of the ref (1 metre away) watching him do it.

And, as has been said often in this conf, these decisions even out eventually.

I think we can beat Germany, and it'll be as tense as Saturday again.

grahame

I'll say this before anyone else does, but having read
a number of the articles on Englands display against the
Spanish in the Sunday papers I have to say that the press
are painting a very rosy picture of England.

Both the Telegraph and the Mail seemed to imply that there
was only one team in it on Saturday - England. Umm, sorry
guys but did you watch the same game I did. England were
lucky to go through. Sure they created some chances but it
has to be said that Spain had the better of the chances.

I'd like to see England win but not so that we have
another 30 years about how wonderful the England football
was. They haven't been the best team in the tournament
although the luck has gone their way. The current England
are not world-beaters and I don't think we should lose
sight of that, in the midst of all the hype and hysteria.

/kev

A point I would like to make re some of the comments
regarding the dissallowed penalty where Gascoigne took down
Alfonso and the ref. booked Alfonso for his "dive".

It was a penalty but as the title suggests justice was done.
The continental teams have been diving "Greg Louganis" style
all over the pitch throughout this tournament. 
This alligned with the UEFA directive to refs. has led to and unprecedented
152 cards  7 of which were red. What is worse is that players have been trying 
to get other players sent off in a disgusting attempt at gaining an
unfair advantage.
"Looking" for a penalty or free kick is not and never should be part of 
football. The blatent manner in which some players when , faced with no 
passing option and close to the penalty area and defender , will knock the 
ball into space , run headlong at the defender and jump salmon like five 
feet in the air , head thrown back , face grimacing is cause for a booking
and IMO a sending off. Some are even masters at toe poking the ball when a 
sliding tackle is comming in and making the same spectacular leap in an 
effort to get the opposing player booked.

It was only a matter of time before a ref got pissed off by players 
trying to make a fool him and tried to nip this diving in the bud.
Unfortunately for the Spainards the ref picked a bad case to impose 
his authority on but as I've said if you cry wolf enough times 
eventually people will stop listening and you'll be punished !

Viva England( Until after the 30th. I don't know if I like Hoddle yet )

    
    Good to see so many English flags at Wembley instead of the usual
    barrage of Union Jacks....
    
    ...and on the subject of colours, I see England will wear that poxy
    grey/blue strip if they lose the toss with Germnany for choice of
    kit.  Let's play in red shirts and white shorts!
    
    Richard.
    
    

re .21

Whaddya expect from The Torygraph and the M.O.S?

I thought England were fortunate , but thats the rub of the green

Stuart


BTW I heard on the radio this morning that domestic violence in Scotland
    rose 10% after Scotland were eliminated. The English A&E units have been 
    warned.

    Re: Peter
    
    I still maintain that Gascoigne didn't make contact (at least, that's
    how I saw it on my 2-D television set!). However, England should be
    asking themselves why on earth Gazza finds himself defending against an
    opposing forward in that position (if memory serves, England weren't
    particularly stretched during that particular attack).
    
    A far better case for a penalty, IMO, was Southgate's tackle on Alfonso
    (I think). That said, I thought Southgate was the pick of the England
    team: quick, tough in the tackle, good positional sense, and oh boy,
    isn't it great to see an England centre-back who can actually use the
    ball well when he's won it? I think you've got to go back to Kevin Beattie 
    or Colin Todd to find another one (OK, OK, I'm showing my age now...).
    
    I hope England take the game to Germany (with Mr. Ince cutting out
    their counter-attacks). Because, much as I respect players like Sammer
    and Reuter, I still think of them as midfelders converted into
    defenders, and I think they'll look nervy against any team with a
    resonable attack (witness the Croatian goal yesterday). If Alan Shearer 
    doesn't have Sammer quaking in his boots after half an hour, then it'll 
    mean England have got their tactics hopelessly wrong.
    
    Dom
    
    P.S. By the way, full marks to the Czech Rep. for a masterly
    performance yesterday. Pogborsky's goal was an amazing piece of quick
    thinking, even if he was lucky to ride a couple of tackles. Pity that
    the Czechs will have a real patchwork side against France after all
    those yellow cards.
    Dom  

    >They haven't been the best team in the tournament
    
    Who has? By the way, they're almost cetainly responsible for the best
    team display of the tournament al la 4 -1 Holland.
    
    >Myopic press south of border
    
    I would say that the English were the worst side in the first half, the
    better in the second half and it was all square during extra time. You
    cannot blame the press for painting a rosy picture, this is the first
    time in since 1990 we've acheived something in our national sport.
    
    
    CHARLEY 

    >I would say that the English were the worst side in the first half, the
    >better in the second half and it was all square during extra time. You
    >cannot blame the press for painting a rosy picture, this is the first
    >time in since 1990 we've acheived something in our national sport.
    
    Certainly, I would say that Zubizaretta (sp?) was the busier of the two
    keepers. I think what people are saying is that, with a different ref,
    England might now be out of the tournament, regardless of whether they
    deserved it or not.
    
    Dom

    
    Yes England were a tad lucky, yes it was a goal, yes we did'nt play 
    that well, yes if the Spanish had a centre forward etc....
    
    But for christs sake if your English stop whinging and get behind them,
    how many times have we been unlucky.. WC 1970 2-0 up Wc 1973 Poland:
    WC 1978 did'nt qualify: WC 1986 Hand of God: EC 1988 We were crap: WC
    1990 beat in Semi's: 1992-94 Graham Taylor:
    
    We're there... Italy, Spain. Holland have gone home lets stop putting
    ourselves down.. get behind the team and if we win then B*llocks lets
    call ourselves world beaters... Who knows by 1998 we could all be
    sitting watching TV saying "unlucky not to qualify were'nt we"
    
    Enjoy while you can
    
    Trevor Macdonald News at Ten  
    

    .27
    
    >I think what people are saying is that, with a different
    >ref, England might now be out of the tournament,
    
    Could this not be the case in any of the quarter finals, nay, any game
    in the tournament perhaps?
    
    Whilst I agree that the offside decision was extremely marginal, I
    also contend that Stone was denied a penalty in extra time. As you say,
    it all tends to even out.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    
    Mmm, the best teams have gone home...a little the same as 1966 when Brazil
    were kicked off the park..but like Rodney March pointed out 'It doesn't
    matter 'how' England win as long as they do so'...a little sad...
    
    Dezzz. 
    
    	

    >Mmm, the best teams have gone home...a little the same as 1966 when Brazil
    >were kicked off the park..but like Rodney March pointed out 'It doesn't
    
    Dezzz, I'm more and more intrigued to see your personal list of the
    "best teams that have gone home":
    
    o Spain - one good game so far; just ask their press!
    o Italy - 1.5 good games...or maybe you like teams that set the world
              on fire for half an hour per game?
    o Holland - do me a favour!
    o Croatia - too naive by half, especially in the last couple of matches
    
    Maybe you were referring to Turkey... ;-)
    
    Dom

    
    Dezzz...
    
    I could be wrong, but are you implying that the teams left in the
    competition dont deserve to be....?
    
    Dave...

    Dezzz, could you possibly be insinuating that England are not the
    Harlem Globetrotters of world football? ;-)
    
    Dom

    
    Dezzz,
    
    I'm sending Stuart Pearce round for a chat with you :-)
    
    Richard.
    

    
    ;-) all around to you too.....
    
    In fact Dom, the 4 teams you chose might just as well provide better
    entertainment...then again a last 4 of Malta, Luxembourg, Cyprus and
    San Marino might just be as entertaining....
    
    Dezzz. 

    
    Richard get this...McCrite said after seeing Pearce...'..he looks a
    real evil man...' until it was pointed out that he's as timid as a
    mouse...
    
    Dezzz. 

    Dezzz,
    
    The commentator on France-Holland said something along the lines of,
    
    "no one remembers losers" in making the point that unless Jaquet's team
    win Euro 96 or France 98 they will be gone from memory in a few years,
    unlike the Platini led team who won Euro ??.
    
    The same is true here - if England (or any of the other 3) win on
    Sunday, no one will remember how well or badly they played, just that
    they won. If the best footballing team always won, Newcastle would be
    Premiership Champions and Palace would have won the Champions League
    :-)
    
    Paul

re .30 and .31

My best teams of the EC till yesterday have been:

1. France and Italy
2. England and Croatia

Heribert

 Pierluigi Pairetto (Italy) final

 Good news for England, he was the ref. ENG-SCO
 Pairetto has been ref. Cup Winner's final Rapid Wien - Paris SG (not good)

 Leslie Mottram (Scotland) is the ref. of FRA - CZ

 Sandor Puhl (Hungary) is the ref. of England - Germany.
 He was the referee of the WC final in 1994.

 Heribert

    .30
    >Mmm, the best teams have gone home
    
    Hmm...bit of flawed logic there. If they were that good, they wouldn't
    be going home. would they? At they end of the day, the four sides left in 
    the tournament are the four that have earned the right to be there.
    
    
    CHARLEY
      

> Pierluigi Pairetto (Italy) final
>
> Good news for England, he was the ref. ENG-SCO

You mean the one who gave the penalty against us?!!

g

    
    
    > You mean the one who gave the penalty against us?!!
    
    I know the linesmen don't allow goals against you, but I didn't know
    the referees wern't allow to give penalties against you!!
    
    Danny.
    
    
    
    :-)
    

    re .40 : The last four are the last four but considering the below
    average refereeing during this tournament ( as if UEFA knew before who
    would be the last 4.....) not the deserved four. I think that only the
    Chechs deserved to go through ( and maybe the French).
    But that's football, folks !!!
    
    John

    
    >Hmm...bit of flawed logic there. If they were that good, they wouldn't
    >be going home. would they? At they end of the day, the four sides left in 
    >the tournament are the four that have earned the right to be there.
    
    
    	Eh...CHARLEY...I think you're missing the point....earned the right
    on 'what' basis...that IS the point.
    
    Dezzz.

    >In fact Dom, the 4 teams you chose might just as well provide better
    >entertainment...then again a last 4 of Malta, Luxembourg, Cyprus and
    >San Marino might just be as entertaining....
    
    Whatever rows your boat! 
    
    Seriously, it may sound like I'm stating the bl**ding obvious but most
    teams tend to be more entertaining when they're playing well ;-) Hence,
    I wouldn't expect many football lovers to be entertained by England's
    first half against the Scots or Italy's first half against the Ruskies. 
    By the same taken, I would hope that even the Mac and O'Noters could
    summon up a pale smile at England's performance against that
    international non-entity known as Holland (hmm, I seem to recall the
    Dutch making quite a game of it against Rep. of Ireland at Anfield a
    couple of months back!)
    
    Come to think of it, I don't recall you guys bawling your eyes out in
    the group match between Spain and Bulgaria when the ref disallowed an
    absolute pearler from Stoitchkov. If the linesman had done his job
    properly, you'd all have been supporting *Bulgaria* against England on
    Saturday ;-)              
    
    Makes yer think, dunnit?
    
    Dom
    

    Earned the right by winning or coming runner up in their group games
    over 3 matches and winning their quarter finals. That is how all
    tournaments are run isn't it?
    
    Paul

    >Eh...CHARLEY...I think you're missing the point....earned the right
    >on 'what' basis...that IS the point.
    
    On the basis that they scored more goals than the other teams in the
    first round and the quarter finals. (And can hit a decent penalty).
    There is no other yardstick.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Lads, I think Dezzz is head-over-heels in love with those Latin
    ball-players. You know the ones - Di Matteo, Albertini, Appolloni,
    Nadal, Amor...need I go on?
    
    Dom

    Well due to oversleeping I missed the Germany v Croatia game which
    sounds as if it was not a pretty game but I did get to see Portugal v
    Czech and I must say that it looked to me as if the ref appeared to
    be either booking anyone who spoke with a Portuguese accent or looked
    East european how in the hell did that game have 9 bookings and a
    sending off?
    
    I thougH Portugal played exciting footie and deserved to beat the CZech
    republic - the goal was incredible though as the ball ricocheted off a
    couple of portuguese players and then looped and bounced it's way into
    the goal. however as soon as that happened the portuguese seemed to
    give up and never really threatened after that.
    
    But will the Czechs really have much of a chance against France with
    all those players suspended.
    
    regards
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    Pity England won't be playing in red and white. They are our national
    colours after all.
    
    I get feelings of foreboding about Wednesday - good job I can't watch
    the game. I've got no fingers left after my nibbling on Saturday!!
    
    Stuart

    One noter remarked that there will be 20m tv fans willing England to
    win but he neglected to mention the 500m around the world that will be
    willing the Germans to do the world a favour and put the English in
    their place AGAIN!

    Re -1
    
    As the noter in question, I think you over estimate the rest of the
    world's paranoia over England doing well. The two sad Jocks on Question
    of Sport (Crerand - the really sad one, and St John) both admitted that
    even tho' most English fans would have wanted Scotland to get through,
    all the Scots would be rooting for Germany.
    
    As for the rest of the world, who knows? The Germans aren't exactly Mr
    Popular in Russia for example, nor, probably in Italy or Croatia at the
    moment. Most rational neutrals will want a good game and the right
    winner by fair, un-referee'd influenced means. Only really gits are
    mentioning the war and putting people in their place.
    
    Maybe its a national trait in Scotland - ask John Wilson in the F1
    conference and your comrades at VYGER who dip in occasionally to bad
    mouth Damon Hill when he beats the sainted Coulthard.
    
    Paul

    re -1
    
    When you mention only real gits mention the war:
    
    I presume you are talking about the major selling newspapers in
    ingerland and their many million of subscribers ?

    Yes - and the many thousands of subscribers who have called the press
    complaints authority and one gentleman who has reported the Mirror to
    the police under incitement to racial hatred. I think you will find it
    very hard to identify more than a handful of people who support what
    the Mirror in particular is doing. Having seen their Editor on Have I
    Got News For You a week of so back, he is the saddest git of them all.
    
    The concensus view appears to be that the tabloids have badly misjudged
    the mood down here in England, just as they and most of the rest of the
    media over hyped the prospect of mass riots etc etc and nearly killed
    the tournament before it started.
    
    Paul

  Wise words , Paul. One can almost detect the disappointed in certain
  journalists of Her Majesty's Press at the lack of trouble and general
  celebrator mood of the tournament ( of all nations competing).

  Having missed the opportunity for sensationalized headlines of football
  thuggery, the prats start using the war ( where millions of people lost
  their lives ), as an allegory for a football match.

  Somewhat perverse or what?

   Stuart 

    
    I hope this is a turning point in our Media's history and we return to
    some un biased factual reporting.....
    
    Pj

    >As for the rest of the world, who knows? The Germans aren't exactly Mr
    >Popular in Russia for example, nor, probably in Italy or Croatia at the
    >moment. Most rational neutrals will want a good game and the right
    >winner by fair, un-referee'd influenced means. Only really gits are
    >mentioning the war and putting people in their place.
    
    Right on. Actually, the Scots haven't got the monopoly on
    smallmindedness. It's quite a struggle to find an Italian who doesn't
    have it in for either the the Germans, the Swiss, the French, or the 
    British (probably in that order). So you can imagine how delighted the 
    press are about the teams that have reached the semis! 
    
    I would expect most Italians to support England rather than Germany
    though...although they'd probably support the Czech Republic against 
    England ;-)
    
    >Maybe its a national trait in Scotland 
    
    ...and the FOOTBALL prize for Understatement goes to Paul Pateman!
    Seriously, I'm amazed that messrs. St. John and Crerand (sad as they
    are) can go on TV and spout that sort of drivel. The only reason they'd
    do it is to appeal to any Scots who still hadn't made up their mind to
    support Germany. Then again, having seen Ian St. John almost crying his 
    eyes out after Scotland failed to beat a 10-man Uruguay in 1986(?), I'm
    well aware that he's a very emotional man where football's concerned ;-) 
             
    Dom

    
    re: -49   
    The Czech republic has a chance versus France, first because the French
    have also 2 players out: Dugarry definitively out for a knee injury,
    and Karembeu who is suspended. If you add the fact that 7 other players
    are booked, and won't tacke too much not to risk to miss the final,
    well... 
    And by the way, the French have often proven some difficulties to
    manage the psychological pression of important matches.
    I believe the teams to be close and the match quite tough.
    
    re: last  
    In France, I must admit that the opinion is neutral between England and
    Germany, except for the rare ones who still persist to include historical
    references, and who'll be cheering for England or Germany depending on
    anteriority of their references.
    
    PYV 
    
     
    
    

    
    Yes...and they've really started it now...check the fron of the Bild
    this morning...
    
    	Gazza in his tin hat with the headline "Fussball Krieg"
    
    This is only a natural reaction to what the German press took as
    insult. (Not everybody in the world has as sick a sense of humour as
    the British gutter press).
    
    I sincerely hope Wednesday's match passes off without any trouble and
    we have an excellent game...but...if somebody does get seriously hurt I
    hope the Editor of the Daily Mirror is quoting Lady Macbeth for the
    rest of his days.
    
    Very angry and dissappointed....
    
    Dezzz.

    
    re: England playing in grey
    
    Everytime Gary Neville wants to pass the ball he won't be able to see
    his team mates. :-)
    
    Neil

I don't believe, that most of the world wishes Germany in final.
They are not popular because of their luck coming to the finals in the
last EC's and WC's.

99% of football fans at DIGITAL Austria wishes England in the final.
The 1 % I have not found, but it could.

In final (France - England ?) the wish is approximate 70%:30% for England.

Heribert

    Thank you, Heribert, for illuminating some of our friends in the (very)
    distant north ;-)
    
    Dom

    What the gutter English press prints doesn't surprise me anymore. What
    disappointed me most in Scotland was the Daily Record's front-page story
    last Saturday about Scots people backing Spain to beat England. Never
    mind Bosnia, plane crashes, bombs etc., a few Bravehearts were
    fearlessly betting against England in the footie!...
    
    as David Coleman would say, `Remarkable!'...
    
    Ray....   

    
    
    Could someone tell me the time and the Channel (BBC1/CH3) showing the
    "final" Sunday 30th Game ?
    
    Apologies if this was already mentioned somewhere in this conference.
    
    Thanks.
    Toze (Sorry to see Portugal go)
    
    
    
    
    

    Re - a few back.....
    
    I can't believe you folk referring to Scots as small-minded ! The
    English have only just about recognised that there are actually other
    football leagues in Britain....and only then because some of "your
    boys" were/are playing there, Hateley, Gazza et al.  Otherwise you, and
    your press wouldn't give a sh*t.
    You constantly refer to people from other nations as "Jocks, paddies,
    taffs,frogs etc etc"....and usually in a dismissive manner. 
    Why do you think most (YES MOST) of the world resents you....?
    You still think we are all inferior to you, you still think the empire
    is yours. TV constantly reminds us about '66. What if they showed '67
    all the time....now that was a real beating...3-2 didn't do it justice,
    but the Scots lads "played with you". Would you not get a little vocal
    about the situation ?
    Mr Wilson in the F1 note does defend Coulthard and yes, does criticise
    Damon Hill....not because of England/Scotland stuff, just because of
    ability opposed to machinery they have available.
    
    Living here in the Boston area I get another perspective on the
    situation. Basically the majority of people here don't even know that
    Euro 96 is happening, but ask who they want to win / lose....england
    most definitely appear in the latter. Ask yourself why ?
    
    Re: the note that Scotland doesn't have a monopoly on this kind of
    stuff....you're right...it's universal.
    
    Hope we can now get back to football issues. Being far from home I find
    this conference an excellent source of information, would be nice to
    keep it that way instead of nation slagging nation.
    
    One more cold BUD please (yeuchh)
    Timmy 

    Of course,how stupid of me,the whole world loves the English but not as
    much as the English love themselves!
    

    
    Re .66
    
    Part of the problem generated by Nationalism is the insistence on
    pigeon-holing entire populations. Quote:
    
    >     You constantly refer to people from other nations as "Jocks, paddies,
    >     taffs,frogs etc etc"....and usually in a dismissive manner. 
    
    >    Why do you think most (YES MOST) of the world resents you....?
    >    You still think we are all inferior to you, you still think the empire
    >    is yours. 
    
    
    I take it the "you" in these quotes are the English. Please don't for one
    nano-second imagine that my views are represnted by zenophobic
    politians, bar-room bigots or cretinous newspapers - these stereotypes
    are an unfortunate aspect of modern English culture but that does not
    mean that the entire population are similarly small-minded. As for
    being resented by the rest of the world, I've visited around twenty
    five countries around the world and never once been "resented" simply
    for being English. I've been resented for lots of other reasons but I
    won't go into that now...8^)
    
    As for the football, the subject of bad refereeing has been raised
    again and again. Just a small point about the disallowed Spanish "goal"
    - I dare anyone in here to watch two players (amongst a crowd) running
    in opposite directions and decide, at the exact moment a ball is
    kicked, whether they are level or one is in front of the other AND get
    it right 100% of the time. It's not humanly possible. Spain were
    undoubtedly unlucky but you can't have perfect officials - and, at the
    end of the day Brian, it is only a game!
    
    Jeff
    

    
    Calling earth,,,   of course we're better than anybody else.. WE"RE
    ENGLISH AND PROUD OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!                                
    
    

    
    Is that why you've predicted that Germany will win?
    
    
    Jeff
    

    .66
    
    >What if they showed '67 all the time....
    
    They can show it as often as possible. It wasn't a *WORLD CUP* final.
    Which of course the English have won and the jocks
    have....well....they've qualified a few times only to get beaten by
    quality sides like Iran and Peru.
    
    After all the tribal shouting on your part, the Jock team has never
    produced when it really matters. Even when they rely on the English for
    help.
    
    >recognised that there are actually other football leagues in
    >Britain....and only then because some of "your boys" were/are playing 
    >there, Hateley, Gazza et al.
    
    Truth is, the Scottish league wasn't worth watching until some English
    players started playing up there.
    
    
    
    CHARLEY

    
    
     re .71
    
     Er, excuse me for asking, but what have Engerland achieved in euro/
    world terms since winning the WC with the only 2 goal hat-trick in
    history? The only reason that the Engerlish press and media keep
    harping back to 1966 is that they've had bugger all else to harp on
    about since then, much the same as us sad "jocks". Maybe if Engerland
    win EURO96 we'll hear less of 1966, then again, COME ON GERMANY.
    
    Danny.
    
    
    ps In case you haven't noticed, Scottish football is still crap, even
    with all the non-scots players here. Most of them are 2nd rate players
    who failed elsewhere.

    I predict if England win tonight,it`ll be because Klinsman wasn`t
    playing. Plus they`ll be a blatant penalty for Germany not spotted
    by the linesman.
    
    However,if they lose,it will show the superiority of the German style
    of football. And prove England were lucky all along anyway.
    
    

    
    I'm afraid like most football tournaments today, no matter who wins
    will prove very little. Maybe I'm getting very cynical in my old age
    but I'm afraid when I remember football tournaments ala World Cups,
    Euro Championships I am tending to remember 'good games' rather than
    who actually wins the whole thing.
    
    	Maybe instead of all this 1966 rubbish we might consider that the
    final could be a repeat of one of the best games in History...1976
    
    	West Germany v Czechoslovakia
    
    Dezzz.
    

    Germany wins, 1-0. Why ? Because it will be a dull game between two
    dull teams and one lucky moment will be the decision. And the Germans
    are mostly the lucky ones in the 89th minute. Seaman makes a mistake...
    Full of confidence the Germans face the French and are beaten with 2-0!
    
    Away with english/german arrogance ! ;-)
    
    John (forecastscore : 90% !)

    .72
    
    >Er, excuse me for asking, but what have Engerland achieved in euro/
    >world terms since winning the WC with the only 2 goal hat-trick in
    >history?                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Ha Ha Ha! More jealousy.
    
    I'll tell you what England have acheived, a hell of a lot more than the
    Scots ever have, or ever will.
    
    Still, on the list of Football World Champions there is an England,
    but....oh dear.....no Scotland.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    
    
    re .76
    
    " Still, on the list of Football World Champions there is an England,"
    
    How sad, still harping back to the "good old days".
    
    Danny.

> How sad, still harping back to the "good old days".

You are right, whats past is past and not worth dwelling on.
All thats important is today and TODAY, England are in the semi-finals of the
European Championship and the Scots are sitting at home looking enviously
southwards.

Ian.

    >How sad, still harping back to the "good old days".
    
    Most countries have a "good old days" to look back on. Scotland, 
    unfortunately, does not.
    
    
    CHARLEY$resident_of_a_country_that_has_won_the_world_football_championship 

Anyone want to talk about the football?

Apparently, Klinsmann is playing . . .

grahame

    When did his calf miraculously heel?
    
    
    CHARLEY

When was this announced ?

    Re.80
    
    Yep...heard that one also, let them play their little games, with or
    without, we win.
    
    Dave...
     

    Apparently, one event in which the Scots will never be world champions
    is eating humble pie. There are some McNoters who should be eating
    it well into the next century after their comments prior to 15th June, but 
    here they are badmouthing the team that a)beat them and b)gave them a 
    quarter-final place on a silver plate. Kinda sad, innit? 
    
    On to more important issues, then: the Italian teletext service
    believes Klinsmann will *not* be playing. Personally, I don't think it
    makes that much difference; great player as he is, I don't think
    Germany's winning strategy is based on Jurgen Klinsmann converting the
    only chance they get in 90 minutes. On the contrary, England would be
    fools to underrate Bierhoff - he's slow, but has an uncanny knack of
    being in the right place at the wrong time.
    
    As for England, what about Phil Neville at right back? I've only seen
    about 5/6 Man. Utd games this year, and although Neville looked the
    business, he was playing left back. I only hope he's a bit more
    two-footed than Stuart Pearce ;-) Then again, there's an Argentinian
    who springs to mind who only seemed to use his right leg to stand
    on...and he could play a bit.
    
    England to shade it, but it'll be close.
    
    Dom

Anyone out there watching/listening to the game and can keep us posted on
developments between France and the Czechs?

Ian.

    .84
    
    Just reading through the Group A note. There is no gloating from the
    English supporters, and no "well done's" from the scots. I'm sure the
    scots would behave as well were the result on 15th June reversed.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Ian
    
    It's 0-0 at the moment - guess it's second half. 
    
    regards
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

Andy 

only kicked off 20 mins ago.


Ian.

    What's the score then?
    
    
    CHARLEY

    
    HALF TIME  
    
    0-0
    

    Cheers.
    
    
    CHARLEY

Score anyone?

Anyone know who the better team is?

Thanks.

Helen.

    Its's 0-0 in the France - Czech game. 1 minute to go in extra-time.
    Looking like penalties....
    
    Timmy

    Just heard that the Czech's beat France 6-5 on penalties.
    
    That's my bet down !
    
    Timmy

    England 1 Germany 1 after 90 mins
    
    shearer on 3 mins and then kuntz on 16 mins
    
    Sudden death starts now....
    
    Regards
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    and the germans win a semi-final penalty shoot-out yet again this time
    6-5 with southgate missing his penalty.
    
    England had plenty of chances to win it in extra time with Anderton and
    gascoigne missing from inside the 6-yard box but Germany particularly
    Moller (who will miss the final) had some good shots too.
    
    Regards
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    
    
    It's coming home
    It's coming home
    It's coming, footballs coming home
    
    and its just packed up its bags and left again. :-)

    All I can say is that England out played the germans and deserved the
    win. We should have had it sown up in the first two mins of sudden death
    extra time! Only the goal post saved the germans!
    
    On a lighter note someone in the pub came up with the best comment I
    have heard for a long time "The Final on sunday will not be played at
    wembley due to it being closed for re-decorating!" :-) That cheered
    just a few of us up!!
    
    Oh well roll on 1998 France, then we can show the whole world how far
    the English game has come under Venables!
    
    A morning England Surporter! ;-((
    

    
    Cobblers!! That means we've got to put up with &*%$ing re-runs of 1966
    for God knows how more years...
    
    
    j.
    

English folks,

A German team cannot be beaten by anyone - if luck decides.
I am sad , too.

First my popular Italy, than France and now England, all teams playing
football for eyes and heart are out.

The "Massel-team" (Austrian word for more than lucky) is in final, I have
feared this.

Heribert

    Best match of the competition by a long chalk (even the Italian press
    thought so...and their main preoccupation in the last few days has
    been the fact that an Italian ref will be handling the final!). We
    always seem to have cracking games against the Germans, although the
    old heart won't take another extra-time/penalty shootout like that
    one...
    
    Well done to the Germans. You can criticise their tactics as much as
    you like (and some "experts" on Italian TV went a bit OTT last night!),
    but I guess they play like that as much because they want to as because
    they're forced to. And you can't argue with 6 World Cup Finals and 5
    Euro' Championship Finals, although it has to be said that they seem to
    win when they deserve to...and also when they don't deserve to ;-) I 
    think my mother-in-law (a football hater if there was one) sums it up 
    best: "Un po' ognuno!" (lit. trad.: "A bit each!", i.e. it's not fair
    when the same team always wins...).
    
    Tough luck on England; they've certainly played some excellent football
    in these championships, Venables has silenced a lot of critics, and the 
    support has been amazing. An Italian reporter last night compared the 
    Wembley crowd to the legendary Maracana stadium when Brazil lost the 1930 
    final to Uruguay. All the players (on both sides) can feel proud to have
    been a part of a storming match.
    
    I thought Anderton shaded it as England's MOTM; Eilts was probably
    Germany's best. Easy to say, but I had this niggly feeling that it all 
    looked too rosy when Shearer scored after 2 minutes (I actually missed
    the goal first time round because my 5-year old daughter was busy
    asking me whether Gascoigne was English or Italian!). I feel real sorry
    for people like Stuart Pearce and Tony Adams (who had a stormer last
    night). They won't get another go, but at least they've shown people
    around Europe what they're worth.  
    
    As for Gareth Southgate (poor beggar), he's joined the ranks of
    Platini, Baggio, Van Basten and Maradona as players who've missed the
    conclusive penalty in a penalty shootout. FWIW, he was one of England's
    best players in the competition, filling in at centre back, left back,
    right back and midfield - one hell of a useful player to have during a
    tournament where injuries/suspensions take their toll.
    
    Dom   
                       

rep -1

Heribert,

France playing for the eyes? you must be joking. I haven't seen a poorer
semi final in years then yesterdays one.

T_

re -1

Sorry, I have not seen the semifinal France - CZ, I have seen the games
in the group of France. In this games France played very well.

All reports of newspapers agree to Your opinion of yesterday's semifinal.

Heribert 

>France playing for the eyes?
	I'm afraid it's been a very long time since France played for the
	eyes...
	
	The current tactics implemented by Jacquet uses 4-5 defenders,
	3-4 defensive midfielders, and hope for the best out of the 2
	men left up-front (re: France - Romania, the Euro96 qualification
	games, the few pre-Euro96 games, ...). This simply does not win
	games, yesterday it even failed to create a single shot on goal
	for the first 60 minutes... France moved forward and seemed capable
	of scoring for the whole of 7 minutes (a good patch in the middle
	of the second half) for the entire 120 minutes...
	Looking back, the one man who brought some pushing forward when
	on the pitch has been Pedros, too bad he sat mostly on the bench...
	
	On yesterday's performance, both France and the Checz.Rep. would
	have lost against either England or Germany. There was a football
	world apart in both games...
	
	And at last, how come France looked totally knackered after about
	50 minutes of play???

								.Andre.

    Hard luck on England. Aren't the Germans hard to beat!...Eilts and
    Sammer were completely brilliant defensively. The extra-time must have
    been unbearable for the English, I'm still amazed that Gazza and
    Anderton missed open goals. 11 out of 12 penalties were taken expertly, 
    I hope Southgate isn't labelled for life like Waddle for missing....
    
    One good thing, in my opinion, is that I won't have to listen to the
    English commentators totally over-the-top commentary during England
    matches. Brian Moore is the worst offender, he was labelling one
    English player last night as `Superhuman'!!??
    
    As has been said previously, last night was probably the final as both
    teams would surely hammer the Czechs....
    
    Ray....

    Trying hard to ignore those 500 miles further north, I was hugely proud
    of England and the Wembley fans last night. Venables has bequeathed
    Glenda an excellent team that plays good football, in the modern style.
    Some won't go on to France 98 obviously, notably Pearce and possibly
    Sheringham & Adams (I take back my demands for his head!), but with 
    Le Saux, Barmby and Neville I can see a team emerging that can challenge 
    at the very highest level. I would suspect that the Azzuri are a little 
    concerned over the forthcoming WC games.
    
    Ince, Adams, Shearer, Gazza and Southgate were excellent last night.
    Having been through a lot with Southgate over the past few seasons my
    wife & I felt hugely for him last night. Klinnsmann's consolation was
    good, as was Pearce's and the crowd singing out for him was just
    amazing. But at least he was up for it, Ince looked like a frozen
    rabbit unable to even watch. With hindsight maybe the skipped would
    have been a better bet.
    
    The irony was that Moeller, the only player to strike a real discordant
    note with his meaningless kick at Pearce, was the one to score.
    
    Last night was the REAL final. I saw extra time in the France game and
    it was dire. Two negative sides scared to lose.
    
    If only the post had been Hurst shaped!
    
    Football has come home and I'm looking forward to a joint
    England/Scotland bid for the WC in 2008.
    
    Paul 

All I have to say is...

England deserved to win last night( if only because they played in the spirit
of football ) and UEFA , FIFA & the FA should be ashamed of themselves.
UEFA & FIFA for having a tournament where negativity was allowed to rule.
Two Quarter finals and both Semis ending in penalties and as for the "Golden Goal"
( with the exception of last night) what a farce. DISGRACEFUL. 
Where is the Spirit of football gone. Something has to be done to make the
game more cavalier. Dour teams cannot be allowed to take over the game.

The FA for having half empty stadia for most games and not giving a toss.
At least Wembely will be full for the final even if it is with English fans
who were expecting England to be playing the Czech Republic. The Czechs should
have the largest support in their history.

Lets hope it isn't a repeat of the '94 World Cup final.

Peter.

    re: .106
    A LOT of good points there, Paul. Difficult as it is to name names, I 
    totally agree with your list of the best England players on the night
    (although I'd add Anderton who was the pick of the bunch for me).
    
    >I would suspect that the Azzuri are a little concerned over the 
    >forthcoming WC games. 
    
    Naah, they think that the Germany-Czech Rep. final is proof of the fact
    that they were head-and-shoulders above everyone else. Kinda flawed
    logic, IMO, but what the hell. Oh well - pride comes before a fall, as
    they say...
    
    >Klinnsmann's consolation was good, as was Pearce's and the crowd
    >singing out for him was just amazing. 
     
    Klinsmann was already high in my estimation, but after last night's
    display of sportsmanship, he's gained another couple of hundred points 
    (any chance of him doing some missionary work on the other side of 
    Hadrian's Wall?). In fact, the immediate post-match reaction (Klinsmann,
    Venables, Adams, Gascoigne, the Wembley crowd, etc.) was great stuff
    for the sport in general, and was acknowledged as such by Italian TV.
    Pity about a few assh*les in Trafalgar Square...
    
    >If only the post had been Hurst shaped!
    
    Love it!
    
    Dom

    
    Re .106                
    
    Good note, I agree.
    
    It wasnt to be last night but as in Italia 90 ( the similaraties were
    uncanny ) the best game of the tournement, but at the end of the day 
    we lost again. 
    
    Not alot you can say....other than Tottenham should buy Sammer, he's a
    great player.
    
    Role on Moldova in September, Hoddle has good players to build a team
    that can go one step further. Finally, good luck to Terry Venables, 
    which ever way he goes ( unless he becomes manager of the Arse.....)
    
    Dave...
    
    
    
    

    >Football has come home and I'm looking forward to a joint
    
    Bit risky for a public notesfile, eh Paul? ;-)
    
    Dom
    

Well done to everyone who enjoyed the match last night - it was all too tense 
for me to actually enjoy it.

No moaning about the ref today then? Perhaps we need a German or two to 
comment - he didn't do them any favours. On the other hand, the spirit was 
mostly good - England's discipline throughout this tournament has been 
wonderful. Venables can take credit for that as well.

It might be wishful thinking, but I don't agree with everyone about the 
Czechs. I've been impressed with their controlled counter attacking, and I 
think they can win on Sunday. According to an interview with a player, they 
had a big talk after losing to Germany and decided it was because they were 
too adventurous. They should stick to what they do best, defend - and break 
quickly. They're also much quicker than England, so I think they'll cause 
Germany a few more problems at the back.

grahame

    Ref - FA & The Stadia
    
    The main problems seem to have been pricing and distribution. The
    pricing thing hasn't been helped by local travel agents in the other
    countries adding huge margins to the tickets. This was a complaint
    amongst the Czechs.
    
    I think if there had been some more dynamic games in the Group stage
    the interest from local fans would have been higher. The overall
    negative tone of many of the games hasn't helped.
    
    Re how to settle draws
    
    I like the IDEA of a golden goal but the practicallity (bar England &
    Germany) hasn't been upto much. One idea is to withdraw a player from
    each side at regular intervals during extra time to free up space. I
    also like the idea of playing ad infinitum until a goal is scored,
    changing ends every 15 minutes, with maybe a toss of a coin after a
    further 90 minutes :-)
    
    As for the final - I hope they start to consider a reply. Its too
    important for a Copa Libatores, WC or EC to be settled on pens.
    
    Re England's future
    
    Hoddle may change the odd thing but I reckon the following team would
    be worth a shot....
    
    				Seaman
    
    			Neville	Southgate LeSaux
    
    		Anderton	Ince	  	McMannaman
    
    			Gascoigne	Redknapp
    		
    				Barmby
    
    				Shearer
    
    Paul
    				 

    Re the ref
    
    I thought he was excellent. The disallowed goal had a clear push in the
    box. His yellow carding was sensible and he allowed the game to flow
    
    Re "joint"
    
    Palace fans don't do such things, but I did see in the Guardian that 9
    people leaped off Brighton pier after the game and had to be rescued.
    Obviously they we gathering seaweed for the new season :-)
    
    Paul

Just had a quick look in the DEUTSCH conference. There's no gloating there, 
just lots of sighs of relief, and compliments - mostly to England. M�ller's 
getting a hard time. 

One suggestion someone came up with: After 75 mins, they should have sent out
Klinsmann to warm up. Just as a joke, but while England were panicking the
Germans might have been able to sneak a goal! 

g

Anyone care to surmise on how Hoddle will compete for the
attention of his players against the obvious and deserved
worship of all things Terry Venables. Terry ,the first English manager
in my memory who is publicly liked by his players , the public , me and has 
achieved great success and altered English football ( hopefully for ever ) 
in such a short space of time.

At least Glen has the respect of players who have grown up watching him play 
but what he will be measured against is a hell of a lot more stringent than
any of his recent predecessors.

As for deciding drawn games. It should be golden goal for as long as it takes.

Peter

P.S 

How does one go about getting elected to FIFA ?

    
    My wife and I were discussing how to obtain a result in matches such as
    last night's.  Her initial idea was (she is *NOT* a soccer person) play
    another game if it's level after extra time.  Clearly this is not
    practical in a tournament situation, so we discussed further.
    
    The 'Golden Goal' idea is crap, extra time should always be played in
    full coz if a team pushes forward trying to get a goal to win, and they
    happen to concede one on the break, they know they still have tome to
    turn it around again.  With the 'golden goal' no one wants to attack
    coz of the risk (last night's game was an exception).
    
    Two ideas emerged...
    
    	The winner after extra time is the team which has obtained most
    corners - this may see some defenders attempting to make unrealistic 
    clearances rather than pushing the ball behind for a corner.  This in
    turn could lead to more goal mouth action and therefore a real
    decision.
    
    	The winner is determined by a 'fair play' award.  Either fair play
    in the match so far, or, in the tournament to date.
    
    Ian
    before

    I'm being totally serious here: what would be the arguments against
    deciding drawn games by having a neutral jury elect the winner on points? 
    
    It's far from being foolproff, I admit, but I don't see why it's less
    applicable to football than it is to boxing, and it would go some way
    to bringing teams "out of their shells", especially if the judges
    awarded points for shots on goal, time spent in possession of the ball
    in the opposition's third of the field, etc. Take the case of someone
    like Steve McManaman who's had an excellent tournament, but who hasn't
    figured in any of England's goals (if memory serves) and hasn't
    participated in the penalty shootouts; his *formal* involvement for
    England has therefore effectively been nil. This wouldn't be the case 
    if he'd received points for all the times he's gone past defenders and 
    provided crosses from the byline.
    
    Outlandish, I know...but a lot better than the present system.
    
    Dom                                                        

   How about having the penalty shootout before the game. 

Dom,

That is one scenario which I would hate to see in football.
For me Judges are the bain of sport. I don't even think
events which are decided on a points basis deserve the title
of Sport. It's men/women side by side pitting their wits against
each other that makes sport what it is. By introducing Judges
you're casting football into the realms of Ballroom Dancing or 
Ice Dancing. I hope that never happens in my lifetime.

Peter

P.S In the case of boxing the judges are there purely because
society won't stand for a situation where one guy always has
to knock the other out regardless of how long it takes and the
damage inflicted. 

Haven't we done this topic to death over the years? The only answer is: Ask 
the TV companies what they want! They'll probably award it to whoever made the 
funniest video.

And I don't remember anyone bringing up the subject after last Saturday's 
game.

g

>And I don't remember anyone bringing up the subject after last Saturday's 
>game.
    
    Ah, but that's because Spain wouldn't even have reached the
    quarter-finals if the ref hadn't disallowed Stoitchkov's perfectly
    valid goal in the match aginst Bulgaria.
    
    Many ;-)
    
    Dom

    
    To avoid penalties...avoid extra-time....reduce the risk...by having
    more goals scored...by increasing the size of the goal or reduce the
    number in the team...
    
    Ultimately what everybody wants to see more of is GOALS.
    
    Dezzz.

I'd agree with you Dez. Some maintain that you can't alter
the foundations of the game without destroying it. The fact is
that Keepers are taller , players are stronger and fitter. Why
shouldn't the goals increase size proportionally. It would be
expensive but you have to bite the bullet and help save the game if 
not the ball.

    Somebody mentioned the standard of shooting earlier. It has been dire.
    I think there was one goal scored direct from a free kick. So one thing 
    that could be done is to get the right bloody ball on the pitch. The one
    that they use now is like a blimmin beach ball. Bring back the old
    pig's bladder or whatever they used in olden times....kids today!, they
    don't  know they're born. When I were a lad etc.etc....
    
    Ray....

    re:.123
    
    I cannot see how altering the size of the goals will help when 99% of
    the shots in this tournament finished miles wide - just how big would
    you make the goals !
    
    I agree with Ray's point re: the ball.  A lot of the players have
    commented on how difficult it is to keep down.  Weren't the same
    criticisms made after the 94 World Cup ?
    
    I think an easy change that could be made to the game concerns offside. 
    I know this seems daft, but why not adopt the Subbuteo rules and have
    additional lines halfway between the goal-line and the halfway line ?
    The Subbuteo rule (I can't believe I'm saying this !!!) says that an
    attacker can only be considered to be in an offisde position when they
    are goalside of these additional lines.  Surely this will extend the
    actual playing area, provide more opportunity to attack and ultimately
    provide more scoring opportunities.
    
    Just a thought.....

How about telescopic goals that get progressively bigger the deeper
into extra time the game gets.

    
    One rule that I'd like to see introduced, and I've thought this for
    sometime, is 'borrowed' from basketball.  If the team in possession
    takes play into the opponents half of the field, they should then be
    penalised for recrossing the half-way line in the 'wrong' direction,
    free-kick to the opposition.
    
    

    >One rule that I'd like to see introduced, and I've thought this for
    >sometime, is 'borrowed' from basketball.  If the team in possession
    >takes play into the opponents half of the field, they should then be
    >penalised for recrossing the half-way line in the 'wrong' direction,
    >free-kick to the opposition.
    
    Hmm...on that basis, Teddy Sherringham would have recived a red card 
    before half-time last night ;-)
    
    Dom

    
    And perhaps that's the point!  He was one of England's two strikers
    last night, so why play it backwards SO OFTEN!

    
    I have played in the Royals Cup and they use the US system 
    whereby the player runs at the keeper from about 25yrds and 
    has 30 Seconds in which to get the ball into the net.
    
    It was interesting and the crowd seemed to enjoy it also.
    
    Pj                                                      

    
    How about throwing Jimmy Hill (blindfolded) out of the Airship,
    and whatever side of the pitch he lands on that team wins the game.
    
    JMax

    Love it! :-))
    
    At least it would liven up the slow games abit!!!
    And it'll stop him wearing those awful bow-ties ;-))
    
    

    Why not scrap offside altogether?
    
    Greg

    According to tonight's Standard the TV audience was over 26m beating
    the Italia 90 England v Germany match.
    
    Paul

How about using multiple corner kicks instead of penalty kicks.  Much more exciting, involves 
whole team, more use of multiple skills, etc.  Time limits, possession limits, etc would need to 
be incorporated, but what if?

Kevin

    How about just letting England win then we will not need to change the
    rules at all!

    Where have all the England fans gone.They must have went home with
    football after Wednesday night.Good to see you all taking defeat so
    well.
    
    
    p.s Is there anybody still out there!

    Well, a much better final than a lot of people had predicted. The
    second half was very exciting indeed, and both teams could have
    clinched it.
    
    I for one find the Czechs reasonably entertaining. Sure, they get 11
    men back behind the ball when they defend, but their breaks are a joy
    to watch, and players like Poborsky, Berger and Kuka were responsible
    for some of the best individual skill of the tournament. At the end of
    the day, you're talking about a country with a population of 5 million,
    so I'd say that to come within a hair's breadth of winning the
    tournament was a remarkable achievement.
    
    As for the Germans, you can never write them off, can you? When they're
    playing well, they usually win the tournament, and yet they're still
    capable of winning even it when they're not particularly on form and the
    squad's decimated by injury/suspension. OK, they had a bit of luck, but
    even Brazil in 1970 (regarded by many as the greatest team of all time)
    needed a bit of luck on their way to winning the trophy. The press here
    in Italy are moping about it being a very poor tournament, where the
    best team was knocked out before the quarter-finals (I presume they
    mean Scotland;-)), but I personally found it fairly enjoyable. Not a
    classic, but certainly no worse than WC94 or EC92.
    
    Btw, I hope they do away with the "golden goal" formula. If matches are
    going to be halted abruptly after 95 mins. by an error from an otherwise
    excellent goalkeeper, then something has got to be done. One Italian TV
    expert described it as "coitus interruptus" which I think just about
    sums it up!
    
    Dom
                           

Was the goal not off-side ?

IMO it just strengthens the need for Video refereeing.
It's terrible that such a good game should be decided
on a bad decision. The flag goes up the flag goes down.
What was the linesman doing ? The hokey kokey ?

Peter.

    .137
    
     >Where have all the England fans gone.They must have went home with
     >football after Wednesday night.Good to see you all taking defeat so
     >well.
    
     Unlike the sporting and good natured Jock first round losers.
    
    
    CHARLEY$England=equal_best_team_in_Europe

Pretty much my feelings as well, Dom. I enjoyed watching the Czechs, but you 
need a bit more than that to beat the Germans - any German national team it 
seems. They're just so resilient.

Having said that, they proved after they went one down that they could attack 
- as they did against England. So it's annoying when they revert to their 
shell.

Drawing England in the knock-out stages seem to be lucky for them as well!

grahame

Goals

Year	Country		Goals	Games	Averag

1960	France		17	4	4,25
1964	Spain		13	4	3,25
1968	Italy		 7	5	1,40
1972	Belgium		10	4	2,50
1976	Yugoslavia	19	4	4,75
1980	Italy		27	14	1,93
1984	France		41	15	2,73
1988	Germany		34	15	2,27
1992	Sweden		32	15	2,13
1996	England		64	31	2,06

The best goalgetters

1. Michel Platini	Fra	9	1984
2. Marco Van BAsten	NL	5	1988
   Juergen Klinsmann	GER	5	1988-96
   Alan Shearer		ENG	5	1996

Heribert,

64? that seems high, does that include penalty shootouts?

>64? that seems high, does that include penalty shootouts?

This was the first year with 16 teams.

grahame

		Goals

Group A		12
Group B		13
Group C		17
Group D		13

1/4 final	 4

1/2 final	 2

Final		 3


Sum		64

The FIFA will decide, that the "Golden Goal" will not be continued
at next WC and EC.

So Klinsmann will be the only one, shooting this Golden Goal.

Heribert 

>The FIFA will decide, that the "Golden Goal" will not be continued
>at next WC and EC.

Well, that didn't last long did it? Can't say I'm disappointed - it didn't 
really change the game, it just made it too nerve-wracking to watch. 

>So Klinsmann will be the only one, shooting this Golden Goal.

It was Bierhoff who scored. This will be in all the quizes for years to come, 
as he'll be instantly forgotten I suspect.

grahame

re -1

Grahame
sorry for the nonsens.

Oliver Bierhof was the detection of Austria Salzburg 

a spokesman of the UEFA stated that they have no intension of skipping
the Golden Goal rule. Again food for a battle between the FIFA and UEFA.

T_

    
    Here's a silly idea, but not as silly as golden-goals
    
    If the scores are level at 90 minutes then the team that had the most
    shots on target wins. This may require a 2nd referee but what the
    heck...
    
    No extra time, no golden goals and no penalty shoot-outs. The winner is
    the team that tried its best to score goals.
    
    The only bad aspect that I can think of is that teams will just hoof
    the ball in the direction of the goal to gain a point. 
    
    Neil

    
    well, if it's open season for silly ideas, how about this...
    
    If a game ends in a nil-nil draw after extra time, the winner
    is the team with the best goal difference from the preceding
    games. If still undecided, the team with the most goals for wins.
    If still undecided, go to penalties. Penalties should be rare, 
    and one team should approach the game with the knowledge that they
    must score.
    
    If a game ends in a score draw after extra time, then the time which
    was in the lead for the longest during the match is declared the 
    winner. In a 1-1 draw this will inevitably be the team that scored
    first, since the other team were never in the lead. In a greater
    score draw it is possible for both teams to be leading for periods
    of the game. The team that leads for longest wins. Time spent in the
    lead is cumulative.
    
    This encourages teams to score first, and to get equalisers quickly,
    and to get two goal leads which will take longer to claw back.
    Commentators would have the joy of being able to update viewers on the
    shifting fortunes of the teams...
    
    "The Germans have been leading now for 14 minutes, which is longer than
    the Czechs were leading in the first half. If the Czechs don't get an
    equaliser within the next five minutes they'll have to go for an
    outright win."
    
    This idea is by no means perfect, as it will still cause leading teams
    to get defensive, but on the other hand a two goal lead will be much
    safer than a one goal lead, and at least the tie-breaking mechanism
    will be based on something less arbitrary than penalties - something
    that happens in normal play and is a direct reflection of the teams'
    relative merits. 

    
    If possible, the solution should be found by doing as much as possible
    to ensure that one team wins by scoring more goals in the relevant
    game! Appealing to previous results or time spent in the lead is just
    as artificial as the penalty shoot-out. Therefore, I suggest the
    following:
    
    Extra time should be played without offside. The greater space created,
    coupled with tiring legs, ought to ensure more chances. An even more
    drastic measure would be to remove the goalkeepers - defenders could
    stand in but could not handle the ball. The "golden goals" rule should
    NOT be used as it encourages defensiveness.
    
    Games cannot go on longer than 120 minutes; in the event of the above
    still yielding a draw, a shoot-out should take place but all ten
    outfield players must take a kick - this should lessen the chance of
    blame being apportioned to just one individual.
    
    
    Jeff