Conference trucks::football;1

    The death of the Transfer would also mean the clubs that have splashed
    out vast amounts of money in recent years (hello Blackburn) are
    going to have their assets effectively stripped as they will lose
    out the possible re-sale of Shearer, Sutton, Batty, Flowers etc.
    
    Andy

    >>Sutton
    
    He's not worth his price tag anyway.
    
    I think the knock-on effect of this ruling will be that clubs will sign
    players onto longer contracts in the hope that they can either get them
    to sign a new one before the current one expires or sell the player on
    whilst still under contract so as to be able to get a fee for him.

    Lets take step back here chaps.
    
    The opinion does not necessarily mean the end of the transfer system.
    For a start, Bosman was *out* of contract. The comments yesterday were
    legal opinion *not* judgement. The final judgement is going to come in
    about 3 months time. Whilst it will not differ in meaning as far as the
    result is concerned, the chances are that it will indicate that some
    sort of transfer system should remain. Most of the comment in this
    country has been fairly reasonable, except for the Football League
    spokesman who claimed that 75% of footballers will lose their jobs. The
    opinion has sadi that any smaller clubs who take on YTS/Trainees can
    charge training costs. Thus they are able to set a transfer fee which
    can theoretically be as high as they are now. 
    
    In any case, EUFA are going to lobby behind the scenes and given that
    it has taken the EEC this long to change the football system, I would
    think that some system will be retained. Indeed most adminstrators seem
    to think that the English system will be modified and adopted.
    
    As for the 3 foreigners rule, its a crap rule anyway so it should go.
    Some daft moo from the National Association of Supporters clubs said
    that this would mean that people will be unable to identify with their
    team when it is full of foreigners. Tad xenophobic. 
    
    Stuart

    
    Yes but, the decision was made by the advocate general who to this day
    has not been contradicted by the EC counsel (responsible for passing
    final judgement).
    
    Bosman may well have been out of contract, so is Shearer at the end of
    the season.  If the ruling stands, he can go and play for anyone and BR
    wont get a penny.
    
    If the ruling stands, the likelihood is for longer contracts (10 years
    !) and even higher wages.  Smaller clubs will not survive and the
    pipeline for developing talent is well and truly knackered.  Let's hope
    the ECAG gets overruled this time........
    
    
    
    Nev

    Stuart,
    
    	I tried to watch Newsnight last night but the discussion between
    Our Jezza, Eric Hall and the Lincoln City Manager turned into a
    debacle. From what I understand, smaller Clubs will now be forced to 
    dive in at the deep end, sign a player on an 8-10 year contract and 
    hope that they turn out to be something special !! Now while this might
    mean relative financial security for the player, if he turns out to be
    shite, the club is stuck with him, and if he turns out to be brilliant,
    they don't have the opportunity to cash in on his talent and when the
    time comes to renew his contract, the bigger clubs will step in and
    pick him up for 100,000 quid or something daft. It sounds very unfair
    for the smaller clubs and an early Christmas for the bigger clubs and
    the "elite" players !!
    
    
    Comments ???
    
    
    Ian.

    
    
    
    
    >>Bosman !! Kisk up a Fussman !!! 
    
    Excuse me, but that should read :-
    
    		Bosman !! Kick up a Fussman !!
    
    Thankyou.
    
    
    
    Ian$Cold_hands_on_the_keyboard

    One remark:
    
    The EC Counsel is only authorized for matters between EC Countries.
    
    So if a player at the end of his contract wants to be transfered to
    another team of the same country or to a team of outside EC, the
    club can still ask a transfer fee for him.
    
    So IMO, if the '3 foreigners rule' is not anymore valid, all teams will 
    have foreign EC players only and no more players of their own country. 
    Correct or not ?
    
    JO^)
    

    >So if a player at the end of his contract wants to be transfered to
    >another team of the same country... the club can still ask a transfer
    >fee for him.
    
    No. If the judgement decrees that transfers are illegal within the EC,
    transfers between clubs are covered by this as European Law takes
    precedence over national Law.
    
    As for transfers out of the EC, thats for EUFA to decide.
    
    Stuart 
    

    
    According to NOS Teletekst, the European Court in Luxemburg has
    decided that the transfer system is AGAINST the laws of the 
    European Union. 
    It has adopted the advice, given by Solicitor General Carl Otto Lenz.
    Also the restriction of the number of foreignors is illegal.
    No appeal is possible against the verdict..

    Wow!
    
    I can see the $$ signs in the players eyes already....
    
    Ray....

That's amazing!

The last bit, does this mean no more worrying about how
many foreigners one can play at one time?

Si

    I heared the news too ; this means that in the nearby future only the
    rich clubs can win the cups ; they just buy their best opponents. And
    the smaller clubs who have developed these players don't get anything
    for it. Or new contracts will come were players have to pay their old
    club transferfee because they received their training....
    
    See what happens.....
    
    John

Well chaps, we can all sleep easier - Ron has spoken out on the case, yes, 
loveable Ron Noadesis extensively quoted in the Evening Standard. Actually, 
what he says is quite worrying, but not surprising.

Palace have been negotaiating to buy a Norwegian player, Lief Andersson for 
around �200k. It now transipres he's out of contract so Ron inquired of the FA 
& Premiership if this means he can now get him for nothing? No one could 
answer him 'cos they hadn't thought through what they were going to do yet. 
He also says it may no longer be cost effective to have youth & reserve teams, 
and may run just a first team squand of 20 players, all under tight, lucrative 
contracts. 

The bottom line of the article is that the cretins who run football in this 
country have thought not one jot about how to respond to all this, despite 
having since September to, for example, propose that the English transfer 
system becomes the norm (it seems that Bosman's main gripe was caused by 
the restrictive Belgian system).

For once (and this does not set a precedent!) I agree with Ron!

Yous out of characterly

Paul

Apparently UEFA have now explained their understanding of the rules, and if 
(big if) my paper printed it correctly and if (huge if) I read it correctly, 
the rule about no transfer fees only applies if players of EU natioality are 
changing clubs - to a different country.

So Ron should be able to get his Norwegian for nothing (Norway are in the 
EU, yes??!!), but if he wants a Swiss player (ho ho) or a player from an
English club, he has to pay. 

I'm not sure if England and Scotland are counted as the same country for this 
rule (presumably yes, as it's the UK who is the EU member). But at least this 
should puncture the ludicrous prices in the English transfer market.

grahame

    Hi Grahame,
    
    Suppose I'm out of contract but want to transfer within one country,
    let's say grimsby to Luton.
    
    This is what I do.
    
    Transfer free of charge from home club (e.g. Grimsby) to a co-operative
    foreign club (e.g. Eurodisney amateurs) with a one week contract. I
    then become out of contract there and can transfer back to a different
    home club (e.g. Luton). Neither of these transfers demands a fee other
    than than perhaps a token slice to the middle club.
    
    On the other hand given the choice between Luton and Eurodisney, I'd
    probably stay in the Greater Paris division 5 ;*}
    
    Peter
    
    

    Peter,
    
    Even EUFA will probably think of that one, given that most of them are
    spivs anyway.
    
    The FA seem to be under the illusion that the English scheme will be
    the saviour of the transfer system but I'm not so sure. In fact, I damn
    sure it won't be.
    
    What will preserve the reserve and youth systems will be the huge wages
    that the top players will receive. For all 'Uncle' Ron Noades hopes and
    dreams, Palace will *never* be a "big club" and thus will need a youth
    system to nuture players to help them survive.
    
    Stuart 

Stuart,

Ron was not angling to make Palace a big club (btw we could discuss big vs 
successful somewhere else!) but was saying that he could save the club substantial 
amounts of money by only having a first team squad and avoiding paying to 
develop players would instantly move on. For all your derision of Palace there are 
many quality players who Palace either nutured from youth days or picked up from 
non-league:

Wright, Salako, Southgate, Collymore, Shaw, Coleman, Osborn in recent years

Paul

    Paul,
    
    Clubs like Palace will need a youth policy because they will not be
    able to survive paying the wages necessary to become a top club.
    
    Stuart

At the risk of opening a rathole - that is exactly what not having a yoof policy 
would do. A squad of 20 players would represent an annual expenditure in 
wages etc of around �8-10m. Therefore Palace could afford to have some 
decent players (and not Andy "does a lot of work off the ball" Cole)

Paul

    Re; .14
    
    Aren't Norway still outside the EU? I think Ron'll have to cough up.
    
    Mike
    

    Paul,
    
    But how many decent players do you think �8-�10m will really get? None
    of the top class players that is for certain. Thus if Palace want to
    prosper they will have to have to find their own players and nuture
    them and also tie them to long-term contracts. Otherwise they are going
    to end up consigned to the bin marked 'also rans'.
    
    Stuart

    RE .20  
    
    Yes, Norway voted against the EU !
    

    Paul,
    
    Re-reading your list of players 'nutured from youth', exactly how many
    of those players 'instantly' moved on. They were in the Palace side for
    at least 3/4 years and moved on because the club offered them no
    future. 
    
    Buying a team isn't easy. Look at Man United over the last 30 years.
    They have bought god knows how many teams in that period and arguably
    only had 7 seasons-worth of success. Blackburn have won the league and
    are sinking faster than the Titanic. Buying a team isn't going to
    necessarily be (a) cheaper or (b) more successful. 
    
    Stuart

    I think Lazio in Italy probably provide the best example of the
    lot, Stuart. In the last 5 years, they've bought foreigners of the
    calibre of Boksic, Gascoigne, Doll, Chamot and Winter, plus Rambaudi,
    Casiraghi, Signori, Di Matteo, Venturin and Marchegiani (all capped for 
    Italy)...and they've won absolutely zilch (they invariably get knocked
    out of the UEFA Cup in the early rounds). Their wage bill must be
    astronomical too.
    
    As an aside, one of the first rumours that I heard (an article in the
    Gazzetta dello Sport - so take it with a pinch of salt!) after the result 
    of the Bosman case was announced, was that the Gooners would be getting
    Lentini (Milan) on a free transfer. Now, before you start getting
    excited, bear in mind that:
    
    - He hasn't managed to get a regular place in the Milan team in the
      last 3 seasons.
    - He "earns" an astonishing 420 million lire/month (about 
      �168,000/month...I kid you not!) for sitting on the bench. Actually,
      I heard this last year - he might have had a pay rise since then ;-) 
    - The reaction of my brother-in-law (staunch Milan fan) was: "Great!
      Hmm, sounds like an early Christmas present for all Tottenham fans!".
    
    Have you heard anything about this, by the way?
    
    Dom
    
     
    
    

    Dom,
    
    Lentini?!?! Nope, we've still got Eddie McGoldrick in the reserves.
    Don't need any more crap wingers, thanks all the same.
    
    420m Lira can't surely be �168k? Can it? It sounds about �2.65 which is
    probably all he's worth.
    
    Stuart

The first victim of the Jean-Marc Bosman case is Austria's young forward
Harald Cerny.

Last week the transfer has been fixed between Austria's FC Tirol and 1860
Munich. The price has been  1,6 Mill. German Mark.

Yesterday the contract should be signed, but 1860 Munich has cancelled
the transfer, because they will get Cerny next summer without paying anything
to Tirol.

Heribert

Stuart, 

You miss my point on the fair Eagles. The �8-10m I was referring to was the 
annual salary bill, which would average out in the region of �10k per week 
for a 20 man squad. That is pretty competitive in Premiership terms. Palyers 
could be aquired for "free" at contract end. The incremental wages would be 
sourced from the savings on not having a youth team and reducing the first 
team squad down fro 35-40 down to 20 and scraping the reserves.

Paul

    Paul,
    
    what makes you think wages will not rocket for good players? �10k a
    week may be good now but in 2 years time, it will be the amount an
    average top flight player will be getting.
    
    And in any case, how do you replace the players? Someone has to have a
    youth policy to "groom" these replacements otherwise the technical 
    abilities shown by English players will get worse. Palace are not in
    the Premiership and on current form, don't look like reaching it for
    several years. There are many clubs in the same position with only a
    finite number of good players who will be snapped up by better teams
    than Palace. To dispense with a youth policy is foolish and naive. Only
    the first of these terms applies to Ron Noades. 

This one could run & run....

Palace are a good bet for the play-offs, believe me! The standard of the 
division is very low, and Palace are now getting a settled side again after all 
the changes. We have only lost once in 6 games, including the top 2 in the 
division and the other "form" side. We are still in the "young, naive team" 
syndrome. So, do not bet on us not being back in the next 2 seasons.

On the wages issue - I accept that wages could rise but still say that if you are 
averaging �10k per player per week, you would have a solid, good quality 
side. Armstrong was on around �4k per week at Palace, presumably more at 
Spurs. Klinsmann & Bergkamp are reputedly the highest paid on �20K per 
week or so. Colly is the 'pool's highest paid player etc etc.

Palace will never be a "giant" like you Norff Lundun boys or TGFCITW or the 
Toon but we should have the capability to be a solid mid-table Premiership 
team with aspirations for Europe and the Cups. Remember that with our 
recent teams we have been in the FA Cup Final, finished 3rd in the League, 
got to 2 League cup semi's, won the First Division Championship and 
made the FA Cup semi last season - oh and we won the ZDS Cup and got 
relegated twice!

We have found and/or groomed enough good players to be up there - look at 
Eddie McGoldrick :-)

Paul

    Paul,
    
    You are missing the point, I think.
    
    Yes, for the next 5 years, you could 'buy a team'. What happens after
    that? You try and buy another team. But you will find yourself in
    competition with the Premiership 'big boys' who are also looking to buy
    the same players. Guess who wins? It isn't going to be Palace.
    Therefore, they have to have a youth system to groom their own
    players. Yes they will lose some of that youth/reserve team but what the 
    press/FA/ etc. have overlooked is that part of the initial-chappies 
    recommendation was that, yep get rid of the transfer system but hang on, 
    the club that 'trained' the player to his current standards *is* due 
    recompense for its investment. Now whether this is in the judgement or not,
    I don't know but given that the Advocate-Generals recommendations seem to 
    have  been taken on board wholesale, I'd guess it is. Thus the 'transfer'
    system isn't dead totally and clubs like Palace can invest in a youth
    policy. Obviously, they won't be able to screw other clubs as they did
    with 'Rock Steady' Eddie but they will still get wonga for him...
    
    Stuart

    UEFA have lifted the 3 foreigner rule for all of their competitions,
    although they hope that the remaining teams will honour the current
    rule until the end of the season....
    
    ....common sense prevails at last!!!!
    
    Ray....

    
    Yes. common sense prevails at last!!!! but what an silly statement from
    Johannsen the UEFA president.
    
    'I just  wish the EU didn't feel the need to bully us in to making the
    decision'
    ....Yeah and wait until there's a World Cup in Greenland...
    
    This UEFA bunch should boycotted until disbanded. The new business
    about two Italian,Spanish,German and English etc. clubs in the Champions
    league just stinks...what about allowing 8 more countries into the
    Champions league...or just scrapping it and reverting back to the old
    way. I'm sorry but it is only now that the 'European Cup' gets
    interesting i.e. when something is at stake. These 2 ties with Ajax v
    Dortmund and Real v Juventus will have more passion than all 48
    previous matches in the 'Champions League' put together.
    
    Dezzz. 

    
    Just read report that FIFA have extended the Bosman ruling to include
    all countries. To date it has been applicable only within the EC.
    Probably done this to stop Celtic winning their case with Monaco around
    John wotsisname ......
    
    Trevor