Conference trucks::football;1

I agree. Everything seems to be drifting the way of American sports whereby you
have a very small league of fabulously wealthy clubs, and the rest of it is
amateur. Unfortunately, there is not a thing you can do about it, except sit and
hope for a patron to come your team's way. Personally I wouldn't be surprised to
see the bottom two divisions return to the old style North and South system, and
both feed into Division 1. Reading, for example, are doing really well but who
actually believes that if we get promoted the team next year will be the same
one playing now? All the decent players and probably the manager will have been
poached by top clubs. It's already happened to Stoke, who lost Macari and Stein,
the Baggies, who lost Ardiles, Barnet, who lost everyone and everything, etc.
etc.

The worst thing is that because the top clubs are the only ones with money, they
can rip the lower clubs off by offering pathetic transfer fees. The lower clubs
are never going to be able to say no, because they are always hard up. For
example, a couple of seasons ago Donny had to sell Mark Rankine (a highly rated,
young midfielder) for �75,000 because we only had 10 days to pay the Inland
Revenue or get wound up. He was worth a lot more but we had no choice. Same
again just recently when we were forced to sell our best player, Mike Jeffrey,
to Newcastle (although I don't know what the fee was).

Mike

    
    Unfortunatley it does'nt matter what the fans want, money talks in
    almost every other sport, why should Football be any different.
    
    Dave...  

    I agree with what you're saying but I don't think it is a coincidence
    that the "big" clubs are in the positions that they are. The big clubs
    are the ones that come from large urban areas and have widespread
    support throughout that area. I can't explain why Sheff U have a lower
    level of support than Weds (or Everton than Lpool or Man City than
    ManUtd)(I'm also being a bit presumptious in putting Wednesday in such
    exalted company). Newcastle have always had good support and are now in
    the position that that greater support has brought.
    
    The level of support is also to do with the tradition thing, which is
    perhaps why Palace and the other South London clubs don't have the
    support of their North London rivals. Teams which have been
    historically successful will draw support from a wider area to
    supplement the local support (I'm not defending the "support the
    winner" syndrome, just saying it exists - some of my best football
    memories come from the time when Weds were in the third).
    
    A large slice of revenue for clubs nowadays comes from TV. The TV
    companies are always going to give more coverage to the clubs who
    attract most support (they sell more advertising). This forms a
    downwards spiral for some clubs and an upwards one for others.
    Presumably the culmination of this will be a European or World League.
    Whether we like it or not it's money that counts in footie today.
    
    I wonder what will happen when Uncle Jack's (substitute any
    philanthropic millionaires name for Jack) money runs out and the clubs
    have to rely on their local support.
    
    Paul.
    

    Paul,             
    
    happy to talk about serious issues but what do you suggest ?
    
    It seems to me that not much has changed in the last 30 years, the
    lower leagues have always been a nursery for the top flight, England 
    managers don't often look very far down the tables for players, but
    most of all the big rich clubs have always dominated the leagues and
    the chequebook is generally the way to success. One or two clubs 
    threaten to upset the status quo now and again but usually fade away.
    
    So what has changed ? 
    
    The stakes have got higher, and all elements of competition have
    therefore got rougher, particularly the finances.
    
    Its upto the football authorities to enforce their own rules and keep
    things "honest" but beyond that I don't see what else can be done.
    
    Any suggestions ?
    
    Cheers,
    
    Andy
    
    p.s. Better passing game in the lower leagues ? probably a dozen teams
    in all and even then you are still only talking about the worst one or two
    in the premiership.
    
    p.p.s. After Ron Noades ridiculous performance in trying to get
    Blackburn to pay over the odds for Geoff Thomas I hope the greedy
    bastard goes bust.

         
    Well done for starting a new topic, Paul! Though I'm sure it'll be used
    for hurling abuse at Man. Utd and Liverpool anyway (Wouldn't it be
    amusing if Blackburn or Newcastle *did* win the league! Everyone would
    then feel entitled to hate them as well!)

    There's a lot of truth in what you say, though it's a problem that's
    been nagging for some time now (certainly since before I left for Italy
    10 years ago). I can assure you that it's even more acute at
    international level. Otherwise, explain to me how Sauzee can win the
    European Cup with Marseille and then transfer the very next day (I kid
    you not!) to Atalanta in Italy who finished well outside the UEFA zone.
    And there are umpteen other similar examples: Futre to Reggiana (from
    Benfica), Van't Schip to Genoa (from Ajax). Some clubs (e.g. Red Star
    Belgrade) end up having to rebuild literally every year.

    I too would love to see a really competitive Premier League AND First
    Division. However, it's never been more true that money talks.

    >If the gulf continues to grow the lower leagues will wither to mere
    >nurseries for young players who then get plucked out by the Premier
    >clubs - this cannot be good for the game, particularly as by common
    >consent, the old League team play a better passing game than the
    >Premier (Norwich, Newcastle and [to quote David Lacey] Eric Cantona
    >excepted). 

    Can't help thinking that the latter comment is a *trifle* exaggerated.
    People tell me that the quality of football in the Premier League has
    improved dramatically over the last 12-18 months. So much so, that
    Sheff. Utd., Wimbledon and Southampton (and maybe Arsenal and Man. City
    when results are particularly important) now stick out like a sore
    thumb. Italian observers of the recent Liverpool-Man. Utd encounter
    (including Arrigo Sacchi) could not belief the pace and skill of the
    game.
    
    Still, I take your point re. young players.
    
    Dom

    Ref -2
    
    The point about best players being grabbed by the top clubs *has*
    always been true. But until recently players not in the team in a Prem
    Club would have been happy to join a top Div 1 club and get regular
    football cos the small gap in wages would be made up by bonuses. The
    gulf now is so large that this doesn't happen. Hence say Dion Dublin
    sitting around at MU getting 1 or 2 games per season. I'm not saying
    its all the Clubs fault (the players surely lack ambition too) but it
    does mean that the lower leagues get a mix of youngsters and oldsters!
    
    As for Mr Noades and Mr Thomas - Blackburn set the price not us. We
    only said that we wanted to line up a replacement and get Blackburn to
    pay the percentage to Crewe. Anyway - you should thank us - the way
    Geoff played last season........:-) Laugh - I nearly sold McGoldrick to
    Arsenal!!
    
    Re -1
    
    The comments on Norwich Newcastle and Cantona are a direct lift from
    David Lacey in the Grauniad. Watching the Prem League I see very few
    real passing teams its just hype.
    
    Out of the current crop Arsenal, Soton, Wimbledon, Sheff Utd, Man City
    certainly play hoof and run. Mr Panes makes an interseting point when
    sober, if your team cost millions a kick from the central defender is a
    stuuning through ball, if your team cost peanuts its a hoof. Even MU
    often play hoof it - or rather throw it with Schmiechal. Anyway - I
    smell a rat hole.
    
    Paul
    
    
                                                                     

    
    I really don't know why anyyone is up in arms over this.
    
    The fact is that soccer is not a "Sport" anymore in the traditional
    sense of the word. It is and has been for quite a few years an Industry
    i.e an Entertainment Industry. A.C Milan are prime examples. The Club
    records losses every season, but the Empire records massive profits.
    
    It's now more about T.V rights, sponsorship deals, merchandising etc...
    Of course the top players should be paid the money they are. They are
    the ones doing the entertaining. They are the ones bringing in the loot
    and putting bums on seats.
    
    O.K for the ordinary pleb like you and me there are things that matter
    like team loyalty , player loyalty etc... Do you believe that most
    directors give a damn about anything other that making money (winning
    is only the means to this end) 
    
    It resembles more and more every other major entertainment industry. 
    Agents , Big fees/salaries , endorsements , mega-stars etc...
    
    It's business now and unfortunately only the fittest will survive. That
    means that whether you like it or not in the next twenty years there
    will only be 10 - 20 viable clubs ,if even that many, and of those 3- 5 will
    probably play in a European Super-League and the rest will battle it
    out domestically for promotion into that league. The Japs will own the
    Major Team franchise's and probably a lot more... 
    
    Maybe leagues akin to college football (in the States) will emerge
    and these will provide the young talent and local interest.
    
    Who really knows what will occur but what is for sure is that the 
    League is doomed and the F.A will rule supreme.
    
    Nothing Personal it's Just Business ( now who said that recently ? )
    
    Peter(An Impartial Celt)  

    
    Paul,
    
    So much to agree on, yep its a rat hole and thanks for not letting us
    buy Thomas. I understand that Palace increasingly asked for more money 
    each time they spoke to Blackburn because they thought they had us over
    a barrel. The deal went sour when Jack told Kenny he had had enough and
    wouldn't do business with Palace at any price.  
    
    The sad fact is that top clubs these days feel the need for big   
    squads and therefore have to pay players to be available. I believe 
    Liverpool were probably the first to master this concept. 
    	
    What is your view on the loan system by the way ? Does this help ?
    
    Cheers,
    
    Andy

    The turning point in England was the formation of the Premier League.
    This enables the top teams to pay top whack for players. The Chairmen
    *hope* that this will lead to success which will lead to more money and
    so on. It is by it's very nature an elitist organisation and eventually
    will become too small a pond for certain clubs. The rest of the
    Premiership will be left in exactly the same state as the League is in
    now; battling for an undervalued trophy.
     
    I don't agree entirely with .7 that directors are solely concerned with
    money. Most clubs don't even make a profit so it would be easier to
    just stick their money in a bank. I do think that some are genuine
    supporters who are trying to help their club (and have a bit of an ego
    trip at the same time). The ones who are most concerned about money are
    the ones who are trying to turn the sport even more elitist, using the
    club as a figurehead for a larger organisation (AC Milan and Fiat, PSV
    and Philips etc). This trend will catch on in England soon and with the
    financial clout of a large organisation behind an already large club
    (the industrial moguls would want a glamour club) no-one would be able
    to stop them.
    
    Paul.
    

I don't think the turning point was JUST the formation of the Premier League - 
it was Sky paying �300M to televise it. This means that the PL can pay 
everyone who's not relegated more than they'd get from their 'football' income 
alone.

Yes, it has all been said before, but I agree with Paul that it's sad that 
players who've been successful (revered even) at a 'smaller' club would rather 
sit in the stand than play. This is certainly a recent development. Milan get 
the most publicity over this (the numbers are bigger at Milan!), but it's 
getting commoner here too. But as I'm sure they'd say 'I've got my family / 
future / pension to consider'.

grahame

    re: .10 
    >But as I'm sure they'd say 'I've got my family / future /
    >pension to consider'. 
    
    But not their pride, evidently.
    
    re: .9 Just a nit, Paul. It's Juventus who are sponsored by Fiat; AC
    Milan are backed by Berlusconi's Fininvest empire, incorporating most
    of Italy's commercial TV channels. All of which puts into perspective
    his famous comment after the Marseille scandal: "We wouldn't accept the
    European Cup by default...although we would be prepared to play Glasgow
    Rangers for it".
    
    The man can smell TV revenue a mile off.
    
    Dom
    
    

    
>>players who've been successful (revered even) at a 'smaller' club would rather 
>>sit in the stand than play. 

    What is worse in Italy is that Italian clubs don't seem to have reserve team
    football so the players literally waste away becoming shadows of their
    former selves. They start to get 1st team football again don't play too
    well because they are not match fit and then get dropped again. Maybe
    the first division should be made up of the 'A' teams from the premier
    clubs. Then they could own all the players they want and we could see
    them play all we want ?
    
    Just a thought.
    
    Peter (AIC)

    I believe that Real Madrid have a nursery teaam playing lower division
    football in the Spanish league. It could work in the English league
    IMO....
    
    just my 2p worth....Ray

    re: .12
    
    >What is worse in Italy is that Italian clubs don't seem to have reserve team
    >football so the players literally waste away becoming shadows of their
    >former selves. They start to get 1st team football again don't play too
    >well because they are not match fit and then get dropped again. Maybe
    >the first division should be made up of the 'A' teams from the premier
    >clubs. Then they could own all the players they want and we could see
    >them play all we want ?
    
    Quite true, Peter. (I must say, you've been impressing me a lot
    recently with your knowledge of how things work in the football world!)
    
    I've seen this happen time and again - obviously, foreign players are
    the most at risk (Savicevic and Papin were two of the most illustrious
    victims recently; Platt *almost* came a cropper last year). Some
    excellent players have had their careers ruined.
    
    Then again, they've only themselves to blame if they join a club that
    already has a first team squad of 25 (including 6 foreigners)! 
    
    Dom

	re .12

>									Maybe
>    the first division should be made up of the 'A' teams from the premier
>    clubs.

	Some years ago, I seem to remember, QPR tried to acquire Brentford,
	but the Football League squashed the idea. But, now, can the Football
	League stop a Premiership club acquiring a FL club?

	Tony

    
    
    How about.......
    
    	a small rule change which said something like "each and every
    player (earning more than x?) in the club must play in at least
    (eg) 10 league games per season. This would have the effect of forcing
    clubs to keep their squads at a realistic / optimum size......everyone
    would get a game......
    
    Just another idea..........
    
    JBG

    re -1
    
    It could work if there was some kind of player classification (ie.
    first team, reserve, youth etc.). The players would have to play a
    certain number of games at that level. After all, the object is to win
    and to do this you must field your strongest side, not 10 men and one
    youth. The earnings related bit wouldn't work because the clubs would
    simply start paying low wages and high bonuses. It would all be a lot
    of work though, keeping track of who's played how many in what
    category, who's injured etc.
    
    Paul.