Conference trucks::football;1

    re .0
    
    It can return, as revealed by yesterday's events at Maine Road 
    but whether or not it reaches the very violent levels of organised 
    hooliganism, as was the case in the seventies and early to mid 
    eighties, is another question. 
    
    What's more worrying is how the media handle it. I have'nt read
    any of today's papers but I can imagine a good deal of coverage 
    will be given, with a lot of bullsh*t to boot, and will feature
    pictures of the police on horseback looking more like contestants 
    in a medieval jousting contest.
    
    What's required by the media is a more responsible attitude (guffaw) 
    to the way in which incidents like these are reported or are'nt reported 
    as the case should be. Giving these morons publicity (unavoidable in 
    the context of yesterday's proceedings as the game was live) only makes 
    the problem worse. Without resorting to imposed censorship, newspapers 
    and TV should take a stand and starve the hooligans of publicity. It's 
    about this time I should mention flying pigs. 
    
    Journalists and MPs will probably (excuse the pun) get on their 
    high horses utter complete garbage about the problems of English 
    hooliganism and whether we can hold the '96 Euro finals. Which as 
    some of us know is a fallacy as our European neighbours are'nt without 
    their own problems (come on down Belgium, Germany, Spain, Holland and 
    not forgetting Italy where we've seen "pleasent" scenes in recent months 
    courtesy of Football Italia on C4).
    
    I've even heard a preposterous claim that the trouble yesterday might
    affect Manchester's bid for the 2000 Olympics. Well, in that case
    Sydney Council (or whoever) might now start thinking of moving Sydney 
    Croatia FC and their rivals a few hundred miles out of town as they've
    been at each other's throats longer than their cousins in the Balkans.
    And if the Olympic Selection Committee cite crowd disturbance in bidding 
    cities as a reason for non selection then how on earth did Los Angeles 
    land the '84 Olympics with a city full of gun toting gangs? It's hardly 
    likely that some of The Kippax boys are going to storm the track and 
    field events and "do" the 4 x 400m relay teams is it? 
    
    Fortunately, we've got now got a PM who is a football fan (albeit
    a Chelsea one) who can view hooliganism without resorting to the
    reactionary cobblers meted out by his predecessor. Thank God she's
    not still around.
    
    barry. 
     
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Hooliganism never really went away, it just moved further away from the 
    grounds due to the extra efficiency of crowd control and policing. 
    With the increased chances of being filmed on CCTV in the ground and
    action being taken against offenders. The papers have found other
    things to report so it 'appeared' to have gone away, not so. My bet is
    that well see a lot more reports of violence and hooliganism in the
    rags for the next couple of weeks and then as fast as it came back it
    will disappear again.
    
    imo.
    
    GaryW

	What happened at Maine Road? Sorry, we don't get much of the news
        across the pond and I am curious as to the incident.

       Jerry

With about 2 minutes left to play, City scored to make it 4-2, A great solo
effort by Phelan. At this point, according to teletext, about 300 City fans
spilled onto the pitch. After a couple of minutes, they grouped up en masse and
headed for the Spurs fans.

All credit to the Spurs fans, for with only a few exceptions, all stayed where
they were. Obviously more intent on enjoying the result than a scrap.

After about 10 minutes, play continued, after mounted police had been called in.
Luckily there were no serious injuries. I think there were about 35 arrests.

I felt the same disgust watching this as I did watching the scenes at The Heysel.
Why can't these a******s find some other place to vent their anger, than at a
football match. As has been said before, it marred what had been an exceedingly
entertaining game.

Al

    check out the papers, it looks like the Cardiff boys were at it over
    the weekend. The papers will soon get bored with it though.
    
    
    GaryW

    hang them by their goolies especially that tory pm. by the way i must
    memtion that you would get none of that rubbish at highbury.
                     s. name

    Re-1
    
    So the rumours I heard about Arsenal and Palace thugs indulging in
    fisticuffs outside the "Bank of Friendship" at the recent Coke semi final 
    were untrue then....???
    
    Dave...

    
    I think the title covers this as both clubs are in the English league.
    There has been a sharp and sudden rise in the number of hooligans that
    are following Swansea and Cardiff football clubs. Why is this?
    
    Are the people involved from elsewhere or is this a `craze' that is
    sweeping Wales?
    
    Tony
    
    

    Football thugs have always been around in Wales especially Cardiff and
    Swansea.   I remember about six years ago when Cardiff started at
    Bristol City but City went and done em'.   Good on em....
    
    
    /GAry

    Bunch of idjits.
    
    Cardiff now have a fine of 25,000 pounds...but it`s hardly the clubs
    fault.
    

    
    The report in the paper said that the trouble had been started
    by Cardiff stewards. 
    
    Cardiff and Swansea always seem to have a trouble with their
    supporters. I was at Reading last year when they played Swansea, 
    the game was held up because of pitch invasions and becuase Swansea
    fans had ripped the fence off the away end. Reading have home games
    against Swanse and Cardiff within the space of a month and there are
    rumours that their going to see who can cause the most damage and
    trouble when visiting Reading. why dont Wales start their own league
    and keep these nuts from visiting England.
    
    Andy..B

    
    	I was born and bred in Cardiff - left when I was 18. In all that
    time I only went to see the Bluebirds 3 times - Cardiff RFC were much
    more exciting and half the price!
    	The most memorable game I went to see (not from the football point
    of view) was a (typical) last game of the season relegation battle ('78
    or '79 maybe). Cardiff needed at least a point and then it depended on
    someone else losing. I remeber that game was home against West Ham and
    it finished as a draw. The p.a. announced that the "other" team had
    lost so Cardiff survived to fight another day.
    	The fans went mad & hundreds of them stormed through Canton towards
    the city center, smashing windows, cars, etc. I was walking along with
    a mate and a guy next to me chucks a brick through the windscreen of a
    passing police car!
    	In school I remember quite a number of my guys would always be
    bragging about there exploits on the Bob-bank and Grange-end and
    planning for the next home game. Swansea, Bristol (C and R) and Milwall
    were the most hated "opposition".
    	I don't think the hooliganistic behaviour is indicative of the
    Welsh or Cardiff / Swansea people in particular. You only have to go to
    any rugby game to see that. Maybe its that the top(!) Welsh clubs have
    little money to improve their situations, beit by ground improvements
    or team improvements. The hard core of fans are likely to be on the
    bread line financially and they take they're frustrations out by
    causing havoc. It's not a new problem and its not unique to Cardiff. I
    suspect that other clubs have simply had the cash to provide better
    hoolgan control & prevention measures.
    	Then again, maybe we are just a buch of thugs.... (don't answer
    that Bolger or I mash your face boyo 8-)...)
    
    JBG 

    The University I am going back to next year is 14 miles from Cardiff. I
    had the pleasure of working in a fast food place in Pontypridd, and the
    mentallity of the typical Welsh soccer or rugby fan was, in these 3
    cases.
    
    1/ A win : Lets go out, get out of our heads, smash some windows and
    heads. 
    
    2/ A draw :Lets go out, get out of our heads, smash some windows and
    heads.
    
    3/ A loss :Lets go out, get out of our heads, smash some windows and
    heads. 
    
    I actually saw one Cardiff city fan punch his fist through the
    shop window because he didn't want to queue. God help you if they found
    out you were English as well.
    
    Rich.

    
    I went to Swansea in about 1988 and got surrounded outside by about
    50 swansea supporters, there was only 4 of us so we had to make do.
    I have not been to Cardiff but im sure im gonna get a kick in when i
    go there. I also got caught up in fights at Newport, these Welsh
    are a bunch of nuts. I dont go to football to fight, i go to support
    my team.. I think i have one of those faces that everyone just has to
    slap.
    
    Andy..B

    
    
    
    re last 
    
    "I think i have one of those faces that everyone just has to slap."
    
    Leaving youself wide open for some witty retorts are you not???
    
    Danny.

    
    Rich,
    
    	The Unversity of Glamorgan eh, yes, I know that place - what are
    you studying?
    
    	As for the "mentallity of the typical Welsh soccer or rugby fan",
    your view differs considerably from mine. Lets face it, if your view
    were to be believed, there wouldn't be any windows (or heads?) left!
    I have NEVER seen ANY crowd trouble at a rugby match. There is always a
    great deal of rivalry and friendly banter. Sometimes, usually as a
    result of too many prematch pints, the friendly banter becomes abusive,
    but phyical violence is rare - we leave that for the players 8-).
    
    	I think you've been around before (was it in Wales WC Qualifying
    note?) promoting your views on how the Welsh hate and abuse the
    English. I lived and worked in South Wales until 1989. A large
    percentage of my colleagues were English. They gave us some stick when
    England beat Wales and we returned the compliment whenever Wales won.
    To suggest that the English were generally hated by the Welsh is
    ridiculous. You wouldn't have known they were different "nationalities"
    apart from their accents.
    
    	As was mentioned when you previously came out of the woodwork with
    your anti-Welsh sentiments.... if you had a hard time you must have
    done something to alienate yourself. The Welsh are on the whole a very
    friendly people.
    
    	As an aside, I have been living in Swtizerland for going on 5 years
    now. There are very few Welsh but plenty of English and Irish. I know
    many "expats" who think they are treated badly by the Swiss. They think
    the Swiss people are generally unfriendly and racist. My experience is
    that the Swiss are generally the opposite. If you make the effort to
    integrate, to respect their way of doing things etc, then they will
    accept you. They are of course very protective of their traditions etc
    - given that around 15% of the population are foreigners (in some
    suburbs of the bigger cities the percentage rises significantly) its
    only to be expected. It is, afterall, thier country.
    
    	So, maybe you need to have a little more respect for the Welsh,
    make some effort - I'm sure you'll make friends if you try.
    
    JBG
    
    Ps. good luck in Treforrest
    
    The Welsh rugby are ardent supporters of their teams but they do not
    go around smashing each others heads 
    

    I'm doing maths anc computing (hons)
    
    As for my experiences, I suppose working in an environment where you
    meet people who are probably worse for drink does not help. I am not
    anti Welsh. I just hate the attitude given off by a large minority,
    especially in the valleys, where not being Welsh is a kicking in
    offence.
    
    Rich. 

    Re .13 (Mr. Harris) and .14 (Mr Barefield),
    
    Gee guys,  it looks like you two must be two of the most unlucky people
    I've ever come across. I mean, first, poor old Rich goes to Wales,
    tries to make friends with the locals and ends up being racially
    victimised and abused by hordes of facist, beer-swilling,
    nationalistic, horrible little welsh people. Not content with harassing
    him on the streets, they even follow him to his chipper and beat up his
    windows !!!
    
    Then, poor old fun-loving Andy, goes down to Cardiff (or was it
    Swansea) with nothing in mind other than enjoying a good game of
    footie (presumably, they got lost on their way to Old Trafford), when 
    suddenly he and his three equally harmless friends get surrounded and 
    set upon by fifty of the local thugs (no doubt all former rugby players).
    The guys have to "make do" (with what I'm not sure !).
                     
    Conclusive proof that every Welsh person is essentially a football
    (and/or rugby) hooligan at heart ?   I think not.
    
    Could it be that, perhaps, our two intrepid adventurers have been
    mingling in the wrong company. Usually when people go looking for a
    fight they will pick on :  (a) someone who looks like a total wimp,
    (b) someone who they reckon will make a decent scrap of it,  or
    (c) someone who's such an a**h**e that they just really want to kick
    the living beejaysus out of him.  I never met either of these gentlemen, 
    so I can't say which category, if any, they belong to  (I could make a 
    wild guess based on previous notes, but that would be unkind ;-)).  
    
    I must admit that I don't know very many Welsh people. One of them 
    (don't worry Jon, I won't mention your name) is very definitely a 
    dangerous bugger on the  football pitch, but he seems calm enough as 
    a spectator. (I'm pretty sure that he wasn't involved when his village's 
    brass band (Jon's a leading member) got drunk after a recent performance 
    and  went out and beat up the purple cow that was the pride of the next 
    village.
    

    All in all, I think there are probably two sides to this issue. I don't
    think we're likely to hear both of them from Mr. Connor or Mr.
    Barefield,  but then we can't expect miracles really, now can we ? At
    least we can be glad that the problem of hooliganism is confined to
    Welsh supporters. Who knows, perhaps, given time, they may learn from
    the exemplary behaviour shown by their counterparts in England (or then
    again, perhaps they already have !).
    
    The one cosolation is that Ireland will be playing in the World Cup
    finals next summer ;-)
    
    Yours sarcastically,
    
    Jerry.  (Another "Impartial Celt" !)
    
    P.S. "Impartial Celt" is a trademark of Mr. P. Hayden and is used
    without his permission. Sorry Peter.

    I suppose I was pigeon holeing the 18-28 year old bracket of Welsh
    blokes, who, in Pontypridd, all seem to come out of the same mould.
    
    Rich.
    
     

    I agree with Jerry.  When I'm looking for a fight, I generally go for
    someone who looks a total idiot.  You usually find him wearing a 
    Villa shirt.
    
    
    /GAry

    Re .19    Does this constitute a retraction from a "Sweeping" 
    	      generalisation to a "broad" generalistion ?
    
    
    Re .20    This should really be my last reply in this conference, as I
    	      always swore that I'ld stop writing here if I ever found myself 
    	      in agreement with Gary.  However, I'm going to get out of
    	      that by pretending that I 've finally swung Gary around to my 
    	      way of thinking ;-))))))))))))) 

    Re 21
    
    You're a gent, Jerry.  I mean that from the bottom of my heart!
    
    
    
    
    .Gary

    
    Jerry,
    
    	sorry mate, but you've got you're facts all wrong again....
    
    ....we didn't exactly beat up the purple cow...... oops, now I've given
    the game away.
    
    JBG
    
    Ps. what did Mr Connor say???

>>>>>
 I agree with Jerry.  When I'm looking for a fight, I generally go for
    someone who looks a total idiot.  You usually find him wearing a 
    Villa shirt.
    
    
    /GAry
>>>>>

At least, oh **** it, what's the point.

Grow up you sad man.

Mike

    Re 24
    
    Whats wrong Mike.  Losing to Bolton getting to yer???  
         
    
    /GAry

No, losing to Bolton doesn't bother me, but Tranmere are scousers so that really
smarts. 8-)

I was going to say we could go third in the table, but that depended on us
beating Man City. 8-)

Life's a bitch, but at least we're not going to get relegated. Are the Baggies
likely to make a bid for Fenton?

mike

    Fenton said he was interested in playing for the Baggies but Ron
    Fatkinson told him no way.  He is a great player.  Better than Giggs,
    Ian Wright and Chrissy Waddle but not up to Super Bob's standards yet. 
    Still he is only young.
    
    
    /GAry 
    
    P.S  Mike, you're one Villa fan i'd never say a nasty word against....

A few years back, I worked in Cardiff for six months, and I found it very 
cosmopolitan, and one of the friendliest places I've been to; but then again
I didn't go to any of the football matches or dress like a football supporter ;-)

I certainly didn't get the impression that they looked down on the English; maybe
they were too subtle for me!?

Norman

    
    I only have one experience of visiting Cardiff, and that was to see
    Wales play Rugger against the All Blacks(why I only saw it on T.V. in a
    Cardiff pub is another story).  Before and after people of all ages and
    nationalities were getting Very merry on the local brew and the most
    vicious attack I saw or heard of that day was a bunch of Taffs suddenly
    bursting in to land of our fathers when I was having a nice quiet
    drink.
    
    Ref. 20
    	It has been said that gary will act like an enraged budgie if he
    catches sight of himself in a mirror 8-)
    
    SteveP

    Re 29
    
    Ho ho Steve.  I see you are still as unfunny as ever.
    
    
    /GAry

    
    For anyone interested in another completely unbiased opinion (he's
    French), try the Rugby Union conference at SHAWB1::RUGBY note 258.55.
    
    JBG