Conference trucks::football;1

    Mats,
    
    Im an optimist, I dont think that there will be a serious problem.
    
    However, sometimes heavy handed policing can spark something off..ie if
    you expect it and get ready for it, you can spark it off.
    
    Paul

    
    Thats the way it happened in Italia '90. The Police instigating
    trouble that is. 
    
    All of the media coverage was a load of cobblers. Newsmen that
    had travelled to Italy along with media people were offering 
    groups of fans money to perform for the cameras.
    
    JN.

    Well, it seems that these "professional troublemakers" from foreign
    countries can be screened out by customs. There must be some sort of
    database where they can spot people who have been arrested for football
    hooligam related offences. Of course, if they were playing this in an
    EC country, passport contols would be nonexistent, so we could forget
    about this as a permanent solution.
                                                                  
    Tom

    
    Now i had it!!! Iv'e just heard that the English Atheltic Minister 
    David Mellor gives the Swedish police all the blame for the riots in 
    Malm�!! He says, quote; "We warned the Swedish authorities that
    putting upp tents for beer-selling isn't a good idea. Alcohol and
    certain types of football-fans don't match together".
    
    I'm speachless!!! In Gothenburg we had NO problems with Dutch, Scottish
    and CIS-fans in the beer-tents. In Stockholm there has been NO problem
    with the Swedish, French and Danish supporters. This a**h**e seems to
    think that we should arrange English-suited tournamnets with no
    alcohol and separated fans all the time. How come that all the other
    supporters can handle alcohol? Is it a common English problem that once
    you have a beer or two, you get the erge to smash up a city?  
    
    Last night there was a battle in Stockholm on an open field called
    G�rdet. 450 policemen were fighting against 50 English fans. No
    Englishmen were allowed in the beer-tents, so the fight started outside.
    Only four got arrested, three Englishmen and one Swede, but there was
    some damage on cars and stores. 5000 English fans are expected for
    tomorrows game and mark my words, it will end up in an catastrophy. It
    seems that a large number of people are just waiting for a fight, and
    when hell gets lose, many other follows.
    
    Scenario; England is one up with one minute to go of the game. The
    final score from Malm� says that France won by a goal. A long ball
    against Brolin, he falls in the box and Sweden gets a penalty (dive or
    no dive, ir doesn't matter). The penalty goes in, and the ref blows the
    final whistle.
    
    Do you think that 5000 English fans will stand up and sing "Thank you
    England for a good tournament" or "Everyone who loves the Swedish police,
    clap your hands"? With so much problems already, a situation like the
    one above is bound to end up in a riot. I'm glad im not living in
    Stockholm anymore!!
    
    Let Holland have the Euro-96 with England having the option for it if
    they can show us three years with no hooliganism. And finally, like
    someone else mentioned in another topic; ENGLAND, GROW UP!!!
    
    Mats 

    Can we calm down a little please?
    
    The people who cause trouble abroad with England are more closely
    aligned to various fascist organisations than football. In domestic
    football, most trouble has been wiped out. I went to around 30 first
    division games last season, and saw one incident in the very last game
    of the season, whihc lasted all of 2 or 3 minutes. I don't know what
    the total attendances were last season, but the First division must
    average around 250,000 per week, and I think the TOTAL arrests at all
    games was 4,000 ish. hardly an endemic problem.
    
    Abroad, it *is* different. before the touranment, TV highlighted the
    difference as being that most of the fans were male, mostly around 20
    and mostly very xenophobic/patriotic (choose your metaphor)
    
    This puts their behaviour in context.
    
    YES THEY ARE WRONG, THEY ARE TOTALLY OUT OF ORDER!
    
    But, please do not brand all of English fans in the same way. They are
    a very tiny minority more interested in raising their right arm in
    salute to a dead WWII leader than cheering on England. 
    
    Paul

    
    Why do the English always get ALL the blame ?
    
    I used to regulary go to the continent to watch Everton in pre-season
    friendlies and European games and you could always guarantee they'd be
    some kind of trouble - usually because the local thugs wanted to have a
    go at us or because the police treated us like animals. 
    
    It takes two sides to have a fight, so don't blame everything on the
    English. I'm not condoning the violence or calling the English angels,
    but I reckon there's a good chance they're being provoked.
    
    Paul
                                                              

    >Abroad, it *is* different. before the touranment, TV highlighted the
    >difference as being that most of the fans were male, mostly around 20
    >and mostly very xenophobic/patriotic (choose your metaphor)
    
    >This puts their behaviour in context.
    
    How does the above put their behaviour in context ?  I was once male,
    20 and patriotic but I didn't carry on like that.......
    
    If it is a very tiny minority then surely, if the British government 
    is at all interested, they could weed them out and punish them. It
    happens every time England are involved in a tournament. Are the English 
    not embarrassed enough to put a stop to it ? These people are
    terrorists and should be dealt with accordingly.
    
    	- Robin......
    
    

    The context is that the "family" aspect of a UK football bcrowd cools
    the atmosphere, rather than all lads on the P*ss.
    
    As for a solution, what would you suggest?
    
    - take away passports? No deterent in the near future with no European
    boundaries
    
    - prosecute them at home? This is regularly done, as is the provision
    of names/pix/id's of trouble makers.
    
    When will people come to the conclusion that football is not the cause
    just the medium they choose to direct their actions through.
    
    Paul

    The thing that puzzles me the most about this is that given the past
    history of English hooligans and how tired EVERYBODY is of this, that
    measures haven't been taken to stop this once and for all. As most
    people agree, it is a tiny minority of idiots, and an embarassment to
    all the other supporters. So why is it that the government hasn't
    been able to revoke the passports of those convicted of hooligan-related
    offenses? OK, you wouldn't get all the thugs, but certainly the
    ringleaders. 
    
    If they just didn't let them get on the boat to begin with, ths would
    eliminate a lot of the troublemakers. As far as the infringement of an
    induvidual's rights, well, if you do this sort of thing, you've abused
    those *priveleges* If it is made clear that hooligans will not be
    allowed out of the country, the message is that they should just stay
    home and watch the game on TV. Then again, why would these people want
    to only watch the game?
    
    Tom

    
    RE:last
    		Wasn't there an instance where the "stay at home fans"
    ran riot after one of England's matches?

    Re .8
    Notes collision. Yes, passport control isn't an option when playing
    within the EC, but many countries have an Identity card system, which
    can serve the same purpose - to identify known troublemakers. If it
    means having to go through additional security and delays, etc to keep 
    these idiots out, I'd say it's a small price to pay. 
    
    Tom

    
    I agree with the last two entries.
    
    I have travelled abroad with both Arsenal and England and whats
    happening in Sweden is typical of my experiences.  The smallest 
    incidents and in come the TV cameras and Riot police waving batons.
    If you have ever travelled abroad with an English side you will know 
    what it is like to endure unprovoked hostility from every local thug
    wanting to prove himself. I was very close to getting beaten up in
    Italy more than once. I saw English fans get beaten up then arrested !
     I think Gary Spain's story of his trip to Turkey is a good example of
    what we get regulary. 
    
      Lets look at what started this violence, two drunk idiots on a tent !!
    If these two had been German or Scottish or whatever would they have sent
    in the Riot Police ?? I think not. 
     I read in the paper a member of a Norwegian Neo-Nazi movement was
    arrested during the first trouble !!! What was he doing there we ask
    ourselves ?? Thugs from all over Europe latch on to England looking for
    trouble.
     You talk of bans,I wonder if they will ban all the nations whose
    nationals were involved, last night a Swede stabbed an English fan.  
     
     Now it looks like every thug in Sweden is set to join in and maybe 
    even start the trouble with the English. And I wonder who is going to
    get the blame again ?
    
    Chris 
    	

    
    I'm not that naive to think that all Swedish fans are like chrismas
    quire-boys. I wrote in .0 that we had great focus on domestic problems
    with roits. And yes, it takes two to start a fight. The problem is
    that those two where like a torch, many others will follow if a fight
    starts. Put them behind bars until next saturday, Englishmen as well as
    Swedes. After the tounament it can be sorted out who's done what where. 
    
    I still think that greater punishment is one of the sollutions.
    People must know it cost to start and/or participate in a riot. It will
    take some time to get rid of todays hooligans, but it will learn all
    the others to behave. Let's face it; THIS IS A PROBLEM! TV cameras or
    not, small incidents or not, media exaggeration or not, it's still a
    problem. And when a English minister stands up and says that we are
    beeing to friendly here in Sweden, something is very, very wrong!
    
    Mats

    
    Re .12.....make that I agree with .5 .6
    
    
    Re. last few.
    	 	 Where have all these so called Known troublemakers/
    		Ringleaders got their OJT in then ?? not in England,
    		there hasn't been any trouble for years !! I cannot
    		believe anybody who went to Italy would want to put
    		up with that sort of aggro again.  
            

    I doubt that there is one Englishman in this conferance who will
    disagree with you.
    
    The problem we face is that no one wants to own this problem. The
    governmant says it is a problem to do with football, so everyone has
    to carry a card to get into a game (thankfully dropped now, and as if
    that would have prevented this ?). They say it is up to the Swedish
    authorities to stop the trouble makers from entering the country.
    They say that they should not have been supplied with a nice tent
    where beer could be purchased at a cheaper price. They say that
    warnings were issued.
    They will not say we will sort this out once and for all. They will
    not say right mate, you forfeit the right to travel abroad. They will
    not say, o.k. sonny Jim, is prison for you. They all say its somebody 
    else's fault, which is why there is that English politician saying how
    Sweden was warned not to sell beer !
    
    I can only go by what I see and hear in the media, but it sounds like
    it is only a small group of people that start the trouble. But why do
    the rest of them have to get involved ? How much of that can be
    attributed to over zealouse policemen ? Not a lot, I'll bet. If I was
    thereand trouble started, I would get the hell out.
    
    Sadly, and in despair of this spineless government,
    Wayne 

    
    Mats
    
    	Yes I'll agree with you on that one, what that minister said was
     Total Crap. But then our politicians have very rarely said anything
     sensible about football violence.
    
    	CHris

    .15 is in reply to .13

Re: .12

� Lets look at what started this violence, two drunk idiots on a tent !!
� If these two had been German or Scottish or whatever would they have sent
� in the Riot Police ?? I think not.
  
	The reports on that incident stated that the Police tried to get
	the two supporters off the bar. It was while trying to do this that
	the trouble started. And with Englands reputation can you really 
	blame the Police for being there in numbers?

	I don't believe there is one magical answer to solving this ,
	but a start would be for the authorities in the British government
	to admit its not everyone else's fault. The list of "head in the sand"
	excuses for this type of behaviour is endless, ranging from 
	"weak policing"  to  "too heavy handed policing" to architectural 
	flaws in the design of a stadium (Hysel).


	-MM
	 

    

	Correct me if I am wrong..!! but havent all the England supporters
	in Sweden gone under the FA's England Supporters Club..??

	I understand that you couldn't get tickets for any games unless you
	signed up to the club and took one of its package services, which
	included travel/accomodation and match tickets.. This is supposed
	to vet supporters and control the hooligans..

	Now, I know that there's bound to be an element who have managed to
	make there own way there and also purchase tickets but, that can be many
	judging by what the news services have been saying about low number of
	supporters.

	In fact just before the competition started the FA Chairman said on TV
	that they had plenty of tickets available should people want them..!!

	What has gone wrong..!

	Tony

    
    
    Re. -2 
    
    	 This 'Englands reputation' attitude is part of the reason for 
    it's  perpetuation.
    
     How is it that there has been no trouble until 2 nights ago  when 
    many of the same English fans have been there for a week ? The answer
    is that they have been well recieved and treated, until riot police were 
    called in, and for why , to remove two prats from a tent , why couldn't 
    they have left them up there ??  You never know they could have fallen
    off and broken their necks : ) 
    
    Chris

    
    The culture of violence that still surrounds football will always
    attract those sad individuals who think being grown up means getting
    drunk and hitting people. Consequently, even if the real trouble-makers
    are identified and caught, there are always more ready and willing to
    take their place. Also, when a fight does start, it often becomes
    difficult to distinguish between who caused it and who merely became
    involved once it flared up; the latter may be a nuisance but it is the
    former (the REAL trouble-makers, the ones who go specifically for the
    purpose of fighting) who need to be weeded out.
    
    The hooligan problem for England is now dominated by these overseas
    events. On the domestic front, policing and crowd control (sometimes
    over zealous) have nearly stamped out confrontation. When, however, you
    have thousands of fans in one city for a period of days or even weeks,
    this is an ideal opportunity for those who do wish to cause trouble to
    wreak havoc. Given the number of available "sheep" willing to continue
    a fight once started, causing trouble becomes a simple matter.
    
    The football authorities must work to have the culprits, once caught,
    dissociated from football altogether. Anyone caught causing these
    problems must not only be banned from all future England games but all
    domestic football as well; as well as revoking their passports and
    circulating their identity to foreign police, they must ensure that all
    clubs in this country co-operate in keeping these individuals out of
    football. They are not fans and yet their association with football is
    doing the game untold harm.
    
    jeff

    England fans banned from the beer tent = no trouble last night.
    
    Is there a connection here ?
    
    Wayne

    re -1
    
    Well said that man.
    
    Domestically, the amount of trouble around football grounds and
    associated with football supporters is a fraction of what it used to
    be. My club, Leeds United, has had a poor reputation in tha past, but
    those days are now history. There were 35 arrests at Elland Road last
    season, of which 30 were for drunkeness and the others for violent
    conduct. A Leeds United fan has also been banned from football grounds
    in Britain for 1 year, and indefinetely from Elland Road - he hit a
    Middlesboro' fan on York station at the end of April. Some 'fans' from
    England have been deported (by luxury jet) from Sweden, they had
    no tickets for the train they were travelling on, no tickets for the
    match and no money (they probably had drunk it all). There's something
    about an English moron when they go abroad, aged 17-22, tattooed,
    thick, wogs start at Dover, we won the war etc etc ....
    
    jb.

    
    We have all seen how the dark forces of evil has shown it's face all
    around Europe on different occations. Someone in this conference said 
    that this don't have anything to do with football, and perhaps he's got 
    a point there. This is a golden opportunity for people with fascist and 
    rasist opinions to get toghether and create disorder. And that's their 
    strategy. They want a community with hostileness, brutality and rasism.
    
    I'm not trying to start a political discussion here. I love football
    with all my heart, and it makes me so sad to see a great event as the
    EURO-92 is getting disrupted by a small minority. If we close down the
    tents, cancel all conserts and isolate the fans, then the evil forces
    has won. The great majority of Englishmen, Dutch, Germans, Scots,
    Swedes and others just wan't to support their team and get the
    opportunity to meet other fans from other countries.
    
    The authorities must tell those troublemakers that they won't put up with 
    that kind of behaviour. If the majority wan't to have a good time, let 
    them have it and lock the other's away.
    
    I hope i haven't effended anyone.
    
    Mats 
                                           

    Mats,
    
    You seem to have 'hit the nail on the head'. I'm dismayed by all of
    this, I feel ashamed to be English at times. I remember after the
    Heysel incident feeling awkward when travelling in Europe on business,
    my major clients then were in Brussels and Turin.
    
    Anyway, I'm looking forward to the game tonight, It'll be close, but I
    think England will scrape through. Have an (expensive) Pripps on my
    behalf!
    
    jb.

    
    I hate to ask this question, but feel I want to know if I should feel
    REALLY ashamed, so hear goes...
    
    Was there any trouble from the England fans in Sweden last night or
    this morning?  The fans in the stadium certainly looked quiet enough
    after the final whistle.
    
    Ian

    On the radio this morning it said 40 arrests win about 1/2 English.
    Apparently not on the scale of other nights.
    
    Nigel

    
    After the game the Swedish television showed pictures of four-five
    Englishmen kicking a Swede in the head when he was down on the ground.
    It was so disgusting so i turned the TV off.
    
    There been some riots in Stockholm, but the Swedish fans stayed in the
    beer-tents on G�rdet, and the English didn't get to G�rdet att all. So
    the police is saying that it has been a quiet night.
    
    No violence i Gothenburg though. The Dutch and the Scots were waving
    Swedish flags and wished us luck in the semi. There is som truble
    expected tonight, but the city is full of policemen who thinks they
    have control over the situation.
    
    I pray for a quiet evening.
    
    Mats

    
    I'm sitting here listenig to the local radio, and in this very moment
    there is great riots in the central of Gothenburg.
    
    Apparently 200-300 German fans are walking up and down the main avenue
    demolishing every resaurant they see. Some Dutch people selling flags
    and scarfs has been beaten up. Many German fans came with the ferry
    from Kiel this morning, and the police son't have control over the
    situation.
    
    Most of the Dutch fans ran away when the Germans came, it's more
    vandalizing than fighting. They grab chairs, tables, glasses and plates
    from the restaurants and throw the items in the windows and on the
    street. The police erge people not to drive in to central town, and ask 
    people to stay away from the Avenue.
    
    Mats
        

    I assume these Germans are disguised English fans ?

    re-1
    
    Probably !!!
    
     SQF Jambo

re .31     

> we're the best behaved in Europe !!! c'mon Scotland

	With a piece of Wembley on the mantelpiece...!!!!

twa jumbo

    
    
    SQF Jambo
    
    I wouldn't speak too soon if I were you,  are you sure the Scots fans
    will turn the other cheek and leg it if provoked and set upon ??
    
    I'm not
    
    
    Chris

    
    dont want to sound cynical, but i wonder if this will be as well
    reported as the England fans rampagings...
    
    Ian.

    >>       <<< Note 215.34 by KERNEL::HAWLEYI "We're not worthy!" >>>
    >>                        -< theyre all the same >-
    >>
    >>
    >>dont want to sound cynical, but i wonder if this will be as well
    >>reported as the England fans rampagings...
    >>
    >>Ian.
    
    It's certaninly beeing reported here in Sweden!! It's all over the
    national radio-stations, and TT (a newsbureau) has comments from fans,
    police and shopowners. And can you beleive it, it's been reported that
    there is some English fans among the Germans that are doing the damage.
    So .30 and .31 wasn't that wrong after all.
    
    Four people are reporting injured. Among them a little Swedish girl who
    just were in the way.
    
    Mats
    

    Mats,
    
    bring in the army and shoot the lot of them.
    
    Ian.

    I'm obviously not alone in smirking while the rest of Europe looks
    on in disbelief as German/Dutch fans(?) rip up bits of Gothenburg.
    That's if, of course, the rest of Europe concedes that they too have
    a problem with hooliganism. The answer is likely to be NO. It's
    a English disease and no-one else does it according to Euro Joe
    Public. Just as the rest of Europe never strikes..........NOT!
    
    barry.

    
    
    How far is Stockholm from Gothenburg, are you sure they could have got
    there that quickly ?
    
    chris

    
    Re. .38
    
    About 500 kms. If you take the morning train you are here by noon. Just
    been listening to the 16.30 news, and it seems to have calm down. The
    police have divided the fans in to smaller easy-handled groups. People
    are coming back to the tents and cafeterias.
    
    Well, i'm off for the weekend. Good luck to you all, whoever you
    support.
    
    Mats

    
    Just goes to show that not only is your British yobo faster on the
    ground than your average Euro equivelent he's not fussy who he
    teams up with.
    
    Vorsprung dick headnicks 

    re-1
    
    you should re-phrase that !!! It's not BRITISH Yobo's........
    It's the ENGLISH yobos.....
    
    as for the Scots (apart from Wembley) when was the last time you heard
    of a Scot being arrested abroad,5 world cups in a row and not 1
    arrest ??? good statistics by my reckoning.
    
     SQF Jambo

    RE: 215.40
    
    � Just goes to show that not only is your British yobo faster on the
                                              ^^^^^^^
    
    Ahem, care to re-phrase this? ;-)
    
    -MM

    
    
    Sorry I never really thought you Scots thought of yourselfs as British
    i.e never any british flags at Scots games
    
    
    my apologies.  
    
    
    
    Chris

    
    re .last
    
    Unless Rangers are playing that is.

    If running an International footy tournament leads to violence from
    several parties then why not stop playing that tournament. Is it really
    worth upsetting so many other people and countries just so 22 men of
    average skills can eventually win a meaningless tournament and call
    themselves champions of Europe.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    
    Barry.
    
    Well the way England played you would have thought it was meaningless.
    

    Hooligans in public destroying restaurants and injuring little girls,
    
    and basically dull, unexciting football on the field.
    
    
    How long before someone scraps International Football Tournaments??
    
    PJ

    
    
    >>22 men of average skills.........<<
    
    Must  be the England squad you are talking about Barry.
    
    
    
    Peter

    No, that was only 20.  ;)
    
    W

    Re -2 It could well have been the England team I was referring to.
    However I think I was a little over generous in referring to them as
    average.
    
    Before any England fans get heated I am English. I cannot see England
    winning anything whilst Taylor is in charge. You should not leave the
    First divisions leading scorer at home. I only wish that England would
    play as if they cared, like Scotland do, there is passion in the way
    Scotland players represent their country. I think Queen and country is the
    last thing on some of Englands players minds.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Barry.

I suppose It's the same here in Ireland, no matter what sport, the teams seem to
give their best.

    
    
    No news in here about the 200+ arrests following Germany's win over
    Sweden - I suppose it's not news if England supporters aren't getting
    the blame.
    
    Paul

    
    Re .51
    
    Thats right, Paul, 198 people were arrested after the semi against
    Germany. One was non-Swedish. The Swedish police was satisfied with
    their performance. They divided the troublemakers into smaller groups
    and simply took then to the station. 161 will now be charged for
    disturbing the peace.
    
    I hope they will get heavy finds or jail. In my opinion, it doesn't
    matter if it's Swedes, Germans or Englishmen. They should all be
    punished hard!!!
                         
    Mats

    It would appear that hooliganism is a major problem, I think everyone
    all agrees on that front.
    
    How can we solve it ??  I, like many others in this notes conference,
    have travelled abroad with my club and country.  Iv e experienced
    terrible attitudes towards us from the locals and the police..I was
    clubbed by an Italian copper for asking him the way to the ground,
    thats all I did just asked, I was sober..
    
    Anyway, back to the point...I was a great believer that if you treat
    people like animals they will react like them eg Italia 90, constant
    police hassles, no freedom etc etc.  I was interested to see how the
    fans would react to the Swedish 'open arms' policy...come to our
    country, subsidised beer, low hand tactics etc.  I can only record how
    dissapointed I have been with the behaviour of rioting fans of whatever
    nationality....plus it blows my theory.
    
    A customer had an interesting theory based on Tv clips of fans in the
    various Swedish cities......he is Scottish, I should add.  There
    appears to be an age difference of the travelling support of England
    and Scotland, in that the Scots fans appear to be older.  As we all
    know most of us get quiter(boring) as we add the years on, so perhaps
    its the young lads with something to prove theory again. Perhaps the
    young Scots arent interested in following Scotland..who want to follow
    a team who are not going to do anything ??...whereas England were
    considered to be semi-finalists at least, and something to be proud of
    and support for the young lads.
    
    If the problem is with the minority, what are the majority doing about
    it ??...I can remember being severely threatened by a few older
    Scottish fans that if I didnt behave I would be 'seen to' by them.  I was
    young, had pataken in alchohol and we had been subjected to some severe
    provocation by the locals...peer pressure prevented anything happening.
    
    Is this not happening in Sweden ???  Sure some may see this as lowering
    yourself to their standards, but if we all sit back and do nowt, we
    will see our beautiful game killed, or become controlled by the
    politicians and the police. 
    
    Re a few ago....Everyone refers to the Wembley incident when Scottish
    fans are mentioned.  It was peaceful, no-one was injured, kicked in the
    head or stabbed, and the Scottish daily Express had a public whip round
    which paid for the damage to pitch and posts, 2 times over. I dont feel
    disgraced by that incident at all.....c'mon its not often we win is it
    ??
    
    Paul
    

    
    As we all agree on, it's a small minority that ruins the atmospere and
    friendlyness. And the question is how to deal with this minority.
    
    In this world of tecnology it seems to be easy to identify the
    troublemakers. When the tournaments is over, the police in the
    different countries can look att video recordings and identify people
    by matching with their own registers. Here's what to do;
    
    Those people who have been arrested during this tournament, and the
    people identified by video is to be heavy fined or even sent to jail.
    There will be a press-release with their names, photos and occupation.
    They won't be allowed to travel abroad when next major tournament comes
    (WC94 in US). I beleive a visa is required travelling to the US.
    
    The "open arms" policy that you described, Paul, should be default for
    every major tournament. The majority who participate in a friendly
    atmospere shouldn't suffer for what a couple of airheads are doing. If
    you mess up, you have disqualified your self from participating in
    future arrangement.
    
    About the age, your'e right. And thats the dangerous part. Many young
    supporters look up to older fans, and when they see that those elders
    can start and participate in a riot and get away with it, they will
    follow. If those youngsters learn that if you participate in a fight
    you will be arrested, they will see the meaningless of it.
    
    Mats                                                            

    
    That's face it, the small minority that spoil it for everyone else are 
    mentally disturbed. To try to reason with these people is just a waste
    of time, they just don't understand. Believe it or not most of this small	
    minority feel that they are the so called 'True hardcore supporters',
    for the simple reason, that they are willing to  fight for there country
    or club. I also was in Italy for the 1990 world cup and was also
    provoked by young Italians who would spit at you or throw missiles
    until eventually the English returned the compliment. As soon as this 
    happened the Italian police would move in and make the arrests. The
    next day the papers would condemn the English 'Hooligan'.
    Some of the English supporters I saw were the most evil and frightning
    characters I have ever met (and I was supporting England).
    I heard a story of a small group of fans (5 or 6) running the police
    while the police had guns pointing at them.
    How can you possibly reason was these type of people, they go away to
    drink and fight and will continue to do so until they are locked up.
    
    SOLUTION:
    
    Lock them up and throw the key away.
    
    Cheers 
    Nige.  
    

    
    
    
    It's got very liitle to do with football - that's just the vehicle used
    by yobs to get 'publicity' and the relatively easy targets.
    
    And maybe we Scots can't afford to be too smug or blas� about the good 
    behaviour of our travelling support.   It's been suggested that their 
    good behaviour is actually wilful - as they know it antagonises the English
    even more.
    
    
    Maybe there's something in that.
    
    
    
    Michael
    

    Re last,
    
            Must agree with you Mick,I've been down to Wembley a couple
    of times and saw our fans with slightly tarnished halos (sp?).
            Not to mention the visits by the old firm to Newcastle,Burnley
    ,Birmingham and Manchester.
            Changed days indeed.
    
    Graeme..
    

    Re-1-2
    
    I went to the Scotland game at Wembley in 1982.  I must admit the
    behaviour of the Scottish fans left a little bit to be desired.
    
    Pi**ing in bottles and then chucking them at the English fans wasn't
    exactly angelic behaviour.  I get the impression after meeting the
    Scottish in Genoa at Italia 90 that on the whole they have improved
    considerably since the late 70s early 80s.  
    
    The problem with the English is that they have not improved their
    behavior abroad since that time.  Could be the fact that the team is
    just as unsuccessful.
    
    		Brian.