Conference trucks::football;1

    I've read a lot about Poland and Norway being nasty opponents. And the
    results show it. What is in fact the strength of these teams. The
    English should be familiar with the Polish strength. What is it that
    makes these teams so tough, to my knowledge they don't have very much
    top players??????????????????
    
    Rob

    Facing Norway at Ullev�l in Oslo can be a nightmare, because there are
    30.000 fanatic Norwegians attending who lift their team up above normal 
    standard. In 1977 i was travelling with the Swedish national team to 
    Ullev�l for a WC-qualification game. We lost it 2-1, and i have never 
    heard a crowd cheer that mutch in a international before or after. Later 
    on that year, Norway had to beat Switzerland 3-0 away to make it to 1978 
    WC-finals, and they played very poorly and lost 1-0. A copletly different 
    team home than away.
    
    Mats 

    Delegations from England, Poland, Norway, Turky and San Marino wil come
    to Amssterdam january 20th to negotiate the dates for the matches to be
    played.
    
    Rob

    It looks like a very easy group for England who should win out
    comfortably.
    
    Paul

    reply 129.4
    
    Aren't you a bit to optimistic Paul. I know England has a good team,
    but so do Holland and Poland (they sure gave you the shivers in the EC
    qualifitactions). And from what I heard Norway can be a tough opponent 
    playing at home.
    
    Rob

    I agree England should qualify along with Holland but not as easy as
    Paul thinks. 
    
    JC
    

    I cannot believe England have drawn Poland and Turkey in the same group
    yet again.  ITS A FIX!  Does anybody know if another clan of countries
    keep getting drawn together.  England and Holland will qualify at a
    canter against the sheer quality of San Marino and alike.
    

According to yesterday's Guardian, the respective managers will now meet on
February 14th to agree their fixtures.

	Chris.	

    The whole of Footballmindend Holland reacted positive to the opponents
    in this group. Personally I think Holland and England should be able to
    qualify. I hope the qualification games won't be as boring as the were
    for the EC (sweden). 
    Kees

    Here are the fixtures for this group...
    
    
09-Sep-1992		Norway		v	San Marino
23-Sep-1992		Norway		v	Holland
23-Sep-1992		Poland		v	Turkey
07-Oct-1992		San Marino	v	Norway
14-Oct-1992		Holland		v	Poland
14-Oct-1992		England		v	Norway
28-Oct-1992		Turkey		v	San Marino
18-Nov-1992		England		v	Turkey
16-Dec-1992		Turkey		v	Holland
17-Feb-1993		England		v	San Marino
24-Feb-1993		Holland		v	Turkey
10-Mar-1993		San Marino	v	Turkey
24-Mar-1993		Holland		v	San Marino
31-Mar-1993		Turkey		v	England
28-Apr-1993		England		v	Holland
28-Apr-1993		Norway		v	Turkey
28-Apr-1993		Poland		v	San Marino
19-May-1993		San Marino	v	Poland
29-May-1993		Poland		v	England
02-Jun-1993		Norway		v	England
09-Jun-1993		Holland		v	Norway
08-Sep-1993		England		v	Poland
22-Sep-1993		San Marino	v	Holland
22-Sep-1993		Norway		v	Poland
13-Oct-1993		Holland		v	England
13-Oct-1993		Poland		v	Norway
27-Oct-1993		Turkey		v	Poland
10-Nov-1993		Turkey		v	Norway
10-Nov-1993		San Marino	v	England
10-Nov-1993		Poland		v	Holland

    
    Hi Guys
    
    Please dont forget Turkey. Check their recent games and scores.
    
    Luxembourg - Turkey  2.3
    Turkey     - Danemark 1.2
    Germany    - Turkey   1.0  Germany was lucky and Goal Keeper was also
                               great. Waiting for next time
    
    SO Sepp Piontek has been creating a new young national team.
    Turkey is COMING guys....
    
    regards
    
    Gokhan...
    
    
      

    I have to agree with the last note. In the 1990 qualifiers, Turkey came
    reasonably close to qualifying. Of course they had to beat the USSR
    away, which they couldn't do, but the Turks defeinitely moved away
    from the "minnows." The Euro 92 qualifiers were dissapointing, but with
    a little luck Turkey would have come away with some points from a tough
    group.
    
    Also, Turkish clubs have done well in the last few years in European
    Compwtitions, making in to the later rounds. I think one club (Galastasaray
    maybe?) made it to the final 8 of one of the cups this year.
    
    Tom

    
    I would like to inform you guys that Turkey win it's last game.
    
    Turkey 3  Bulgaria 2
    
    I think Turkey will not be easy team to win BUT I dont think they can
    get it to Finals.
    
    What do you think about first game:  Poland vs Turkey
    
    Gokhan

    
    Norway   -    San Marino
    
     10		     0
    
    I saw the goals on Eurosport last night and some of them where really
    crackers! Goal #10 (i think) came from a corner, and a Norwegian
    forward healed (sp?) it on volley in to the net. A goal you make one in
    a lifetime.
    
    Norway must be concidered as a dangerous opponent. San Marino is not a
    good team, but to score ten goals against them takes some skill. And
    Norway did play well.
    
    Mats 

    Nice shirts too ;-)

    
    Well, well, our friends from the west did it again!! Beated Holland
    2-1, and reports says that they deserved the victory. Norway travels to
    San Marino next time, and a week later they face England. Any fears
    from the Brittish, or are you as confident as you where before EURO-92?
    
    Mats
    
    PS.  Another result; Poland - Turkey   1 - 0
    
    PPS. Any comments from Holland? Was the game live in dutch TV?

    
    Graham Failure is apparently "undaunted" by Norway's recent form.
    However, he was exactly the same before England played Sweden in the
    European Championship Finals.
    
    Impossible to tell what England's midfield will be after the Spanish
    defeat. Beardsley may return to partner Shearer in attack. Gazza looked
    promising in the Lazio V Spurs friendly, but was not fit enough to play
    a full game. Otherwise it appears there are no real outstanding ball players
    available.
    
    				Steve.

rep -2

Mats,

I only saw the first half and based on that I can't say the Norwegians impressed
me, they gained a quick lead after 10 minutes with a penalty but Bergkamp
equilised for Holland in the same minute.

I think the Dutch problem is the defence, against Italia two weeks ago they
played with only two defenders and against Norway with four but only two can
be considered as real defenders, it's impossible to play  inetrnational footy
this way in this time 'cause time after time you will get slaughtered.

I hope the new manager (Dick Advocaat) will make some changes 'cause there
are loads of good and strong defenders in Holland.

the other problem is our goal-keeper, Menzo might be ok for Ajax but I think
he can't take the pressure, always in importatnt games he will at least make
1 or 2 crucial mistakes, last season against the Italians in the UEFA cup proved
that, ajax were leading two goals to nothing and within no time he flunkes
twice and the score was 2-2, ajax then was lucky they scored another goal.

T_

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Note 261.0                   NORWAY - HOLLAND  2 - 1                     1 reply
ELIS::GEELEN                                         80 lines  24-SEP-1992 13:18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NORWAY - HOLLAND  2 - 1    

Last night I watched the World Cup qualification match between NORWAY and 
HOLLAND and again 'we' (the Dutch) played a very poor game.
From the kick-off until the final whistle, 'we' had absolutely no chance 
of winning the match.

After the match I watched Sport Studio, to see what "Dick"-(if you know what I
mean)-Advocaat had to say about the game.

...Well I was very surprised, when I heard him talk about the game.
Dick said that 'we' had about 4 or 5 big chances in the first half ????, what
was he talking about ??

I could only recall 2 chances for Holland in the whole game : 
-------------------------------------------------------------

- Number 1  The goal of Dennis Bergkamp
- Number 2  A header of Wim Kieft late in the second half   

Which match did Dick see than ?
Does he know anything about football ?
Actually he didn't talk about the terrible performance  of some players during
the match.(Sonny Silooy, Danny Blind, Rob Witschge (or whatever), Johnny van 
't Schip and even Marco van Basten)
He thought we performed reasonable; the only thing I saw was a very boring and
poor game (since 1988 we didn't play a good match, perhaps only on the EC in
Sweden against Germany)

When we started playing the Ajax system, with all the Ajax players we only
performed poor game's perhaps a new coach,system and new players would change
all this.
 
The first day I heard that Dick was going to be the new Coach of the Dutch
National team, I thought : "Are they crazy at the KNVB ?"
What has Dick ever accomplished , (if you know something then please tell me).

He was the former coach of Haarlem and SVV, I know that much.
(Why not make Leen Looyen Coach of the national team,I'd say (little joke
ofcourse)

At SVV he (Dick) run away at the end of the season, which saved the team from 
dropping to the first division.
After that the KNVB thinks it's a logical step to make him assistant of Rinus 
Michels and after Rinus retires they simply make Dick the new head coach.

Well last night I saw the consequences of their failure.
Dick puts Stanley Menzo in the goal instead of Ed de Goey.
Since Stanley is our keeper, we lost two matches in a row with 6 goals for our
opponents.
When good old Hans van Breukelen was in the goal this never happened !!

Dick chose Stanley because of the new rules made by the UEFA, but last night 
Frank de Boer headed a ball to him (which he still may catch) and what was his
reaction.... he panicked and headed the ball away, instead of taking it into his
hands. 
A keeper should know the rules !! Stanley doesn't know them apparently.

And then there was Sonny Silooy, after a few year with bad luck he was 'finally'
back in the national team.
But last night I didn't know why he was even selected, because he only made
errors, which lead to chances for the Norwegian team.

Some other major disasters were :
-Danny Blind, only in the team when Berry van Aerle is injured caused a penalty.
-Johnny van 't Schip lost several balls and his effectiveness was below zero.
-Marco van Basten didn't do much.
-And Rob W. was all over the field but never at the right time.

Why weren't Gaston Taument and Arthur Numan in the game instead of for instance
van 't Schip and Witschge.

And why wasn't Gerald Vanenburg even selected for the team, he's in an excellent
form at the moment, someone who is needed in the Dutch team at the moment.

This morning there wasn't much in the papers about the failure of the team and
the coach,... why I don't know!

Well that is all I have to say right know.

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Note 261.1                   NORWAY - HOLLAND  2 - 1                      1 of 1
UTROP1::JANSEN "Reading Blondes have more fun"       12 lines  24-SEP-1992 13:23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rep -1

Dear Sir,

some of you comments are right but most of it is just crap!!!!!

T_

PS Gary or one of the other moderators please write lock 'cause these things
   only take up space and there is already a topic where this can be discussed.

re: 17

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think there are plenty of skill
players in the English league but for various reasons Taylor never picks them.

For example, Chris Waddle, Peter Beardsley, John Salako, Glenn Hoddle (old, but
still the greatest 8-))

Reason One is that Graham Taylor couldn't manage his way out of a paper bag.

Reason Two, and perhaps a more serious one, is that we play too many games. Yawn,
yawn, tired old subject, but it's true. Our best players are always injured,
whether in reality, or merely at the discretion of not very honest managers. It 
takes more practice for these skill players to gel together, and we play way too
many league and cup matches to allow for national squad practice sessions. I
thought one aim of the premier league was to put a bit more emphasis on the
national squad, but it hasn't happened.

Anyway, just my opinions,

Mike

    Norway romped to a 2-0 victory over San Marino to take their run to 3
    wins out of 3.  Next stop Wembley.  Let's hope the English team approach
    this game with their accustomed arrogance - it could make for an
    interesting outcome.
    
    		Brian.

    
    Especially if Graham Failure doesn't play Paul Gasket. Why
    so much should rest on one player is beyond me but it has
    to be said that he does make a difference.
    
    If Waddle will be allowed to have a bash then we could be
    witnessing a good game but England will more than likely
    play their usual crap. Failure will then have enough excuses
    to write a book. The title would be.......
    
    WHY I COULDN'T MANAGE A PI$$ UP IN A BREWERY !!! A THOUSAND 
    REASONS.
    
    I'll give the game to Norway.
    
    Norway 65     England 0
    
    
    JN.

    Norway to draw at Wembley and eventually go through to the finals 
    with Holland. Taylor by the end of 1993 will have finally found a 
    team after 4 years and 7000 players. The fact that Geoff Hurst
    is included in preference to Ian Wright comes as no surprise.....  
    
    
    
    
    

    
    I'm not a fan of Brittish style football, but i'll tell you one thing;
    They always give 100% effort in every game. There is so many times i've
    read that England played like crap but managed to get a 1-0 win. There
    is so many skillfull players that Taylor could pick out 3-4 teams that
    will beat Norway nine times out of ten. Perhaps there is too many good
    players to choose among.
    
    A coach must experiment and use many plyer for a while, but eventually
    he must find a team that can be trained to play together as a team. My
    hopes is for Norway next week, but i suspect that England win the game.
    
    Mats

    A little piece of trivia:
    
    Before playing Holland, Norway's coach Egil 'Drillo' Olsen
    regretted Gullit's absence, finding "an advantage in facing
    opponents with a bigger name than their actual skills".
    
    Before playing England, he told Sky News that he hoped Gazza
    would play on Wembley, since "it's an advantage to meet players
    with a bigger mouth than talent".
    
    Keep an eye on Mr Olsen's mouth on Wembley next Wednesday... ;^)
    
    
    Henrik                                                
    
     

    I see Gazza has done his bit for Anglo-Scandanavian relations.
    
    A Norwegian journalist was watching England train at Bisham Abbey on
    Sunday.  Afterwards he approached Gazza and asked him if he had any
    message for the people of Norway, Gazza replied "Yeah, F*** off Norway"
    
    Big Lawrie McMenemy stepped in and diffused the situation and said it 
    was a lighthearted comment.  The comment has been widely publicised in
    Norway.  Great move by Gazza, that should really fire the Norwegians up 
    
    Heres hoping they both teams can keep up their recent form.
    Norway 2 England 1
    
    		Brian.

    
    Hey Brian,
    
      Tell the rest of the story...
    
      Gazza made a full apology to the journalist (who incidently was in
    a restricted are - he shouldn't have been there), who had his cameras
    rolling without having informed anyone.  He also made a full apology to
    the Norwegian people, also explaining that it was OBVIOUSLY a
    light-hearted comment, and later gave a full exclusive interview to the
    same Norwegian reporting team.
    
      That's the full story and doesn't paint Gazza as blackly as your
    reply Brian, however, I still think he was stupid, unthinking and all
    the rest...   I just hope he gets a hatrick.
    
    Ian

    I just relayed the story as reported in yesterday's Independent.  When
    taken out of context the comment sounds stupid and irresponsible but if
    you had been there and witnessed the light hearted incident I'm sure it
    was very funny.   But it is still the sort of comment which fires up
    the opposition thanks to "constructive journalism".
    
    I'm not trying to portray Gazza as anything in particular, the game
    needs more characters like him.                    
    
    		Brian.

I just wonder if a foreign player had made the same remark at England..
How would that have ve'been accepted by everyone...for example a German player..!

Tony

Enough about Gaz...what about the rest of the team.

Who's going to be in the english side tomorrow?

     
    According to numerous papers today the team is:
    
    Woods
    Dixon
    Adams 
    Walker
    Pearce
    Batty
    Ince
    Gascoigne
    Platt
    Shearer
    Wright
    
    Lets hope that Adams is replaced by Pallister and Batty replaced by
    Merson(if fit) or Salako.
    
    Dave...

Looks like good news for Norway.
The Donkey Adams looks like being included.
Anyone see the picture on "Standing Room Only" a couple of weeks ago, of
Adams and a camel. The voice went "What are you doing, standing there with
a donkey. And Adams replies "Thats not a donkey it's a camel". And the voice
says, "I not talking to you, i'm talking to the camel.
BTW Adams was posing with his hand in the air doing what Arsenal do best,
looking for offside. 
It was a cracker.

�@ 

    
    The team has been announced and it is the one predicted by most of the
    press and is as .32
    
    
    Dave...who cant wait to see Gazza inspire England to a 3-0 win.

    
    I had a dream last night, it went something like England beat Norway
    9-0, yup, NINE.  Gazza got four of them, and wait for it, Ian Rush
    another!  (yes I know he's Welsh!)
    
    Some dream!!

    
    	Well I'm disappointed Adams has been selected. Pallister has been
    	in tremendous form recently for Utd, but surely Adams isn't even
    	in the top five central defenders..? Wright would even be an
    	improvement. Hope I'm proved wrong tomorrow night.
    
    	Batty has been playing out of position recently for Leeds (Leeds
    	Leeds), but probably deserves his place. Ince is playing well,
    	Platt and Walker are finding their work cut out in Italy.
    
    	I think the weakness is at full-back. Our distribution from Dixon
    	and Pearce is not often good enough. I'd prefer someone like 
    	Barrett (Aston Villa now, and in form) at right-back maybe.
    
    	Glad Shearer and Wright get a chance together, but I'd have left
    	Gascoigne on the bench until � time (maybe Merson on first).
    
    	Surely this side is good enough for a two-goal victory...8-}
    
    	Andy.

    It's great to see that superb footballer back in the English team.
    
    Well deserved and well done Tony!

 I'm not sure that Taylor is right in using a flat back four. Maybe he thinks
an extra pair of hooves will come in handy.

 Stuart

    I'd like to wish England the very best of luck tomorrow night.
    
    regards,
    
    *TIGER*
    
    PS. ...I mean this most sincerely.
    
    PPS....I really do.
                    

    
    Well England start off there campaign against an inform Norway side
    who to be quite frank couldn't have asked for an easier start, with
    the exception of Holland, but Norway's real test is tonight against
    a strike force that if they were to click could be the most exciting
    in world football with Gazza running at them from midfield Platts late
    runs into the box a three or four nil win won't be surprise so I'm
    going to stick my neck out and go for a scoreline of 
    
    England 4   Norway 0
    Gazza 
    Shearer2
    Wright
     Wright
    
     Neil...

    
    Well it's always easier to say "I told you so!" when you actually
    have, so I'll stick my neck out too:
    
    So the Most Overrated Footballer in the World makes a come-back. That
    won't make a difference. However:
    
    Seriously, even if England prove time and time again that they are not
    among the World's top teams, they should not have a problem with Norway
    at home.
    
    It is reported in the papers today that the Norwegian people expect   
    a win. Norway have not won an away game against anyone but 4th rate
    opposition for as long as I can remember. I cannot see why a fluky win
    at home against a very disappointing Holland should point in a new
    direction. 
    
    The home advantage in European Football is becoming ever more
    significant (I think this has partly to do with the deteriorating
    standard of refereeing). To be honest Sweden's success in the European
    Chanpionships owes a lot to this fact. Norway are among the teams that
    can cause disturbances at home to any other team (like other 3rd rate
    nations such as Turkey, Finland, Greece, Israel etc) but they will never
    stand a chance of qualifying.
    
    This group will be decided between England, Poland, Holland in their
    internal clashes and it will be a bonus for the others if Norway can
    sneak a point here and there. That's about it.
    
    Now, did I stick my neck out long enough?
    
    	cheers,
    
    		Stefan

    RE: all this Gazza gibbering .. I seem to recall the same inordinate
    amount of fuss as to whether Kevin Keegan played in England teams
    or not.   A particularly memorable one, was whether he would play
    against Scotland one year - yes/no/yes/no/yes/no - he did in the
    end and England lost .. nuff said ..
    
    Ray

   Stefan, the way the English team played in Sweeden is the real reason behind
the gazza hype. Not too many people know him outside of England. You wont find
too many non-English people claiming gazza to be the best player in the world.

   Stefan your boys have a chance tonight, not because Norway is a great or
good team no, its just because England are a weak team.

                                                                -dave-

                               

All this talk about Gazza is very nice, but I think the biggest mistake our man
Taylor has made is not playing Salako. Who is this Ince bloke anyway?

I hope Salako is at least on the bench, so he can be brought on at half time.

John Barnes is dead, long live King John Salako.

Mike

                     <<< Note 129.44 by FORTY2::FOWLERM >>>
                                 -< Salako... >-

>All this talk about Gazza is very nice, but I think the biggest mistake our man
>Taylor has made is not playing Salako. Who is this Ince bloke anyway?

>I hope Salako is at least on the bench, so he can be brought on at half time.

>John Barnes is dead, long live King John Salako.

>Mike


 My sentiments entirely. Keep up the good work.

 Stuart

Re .41  
    
    So, the Most Overrated Country in the World is still sore about the Winter
    Olympics...

Re .43

    Stefan is definitely not one of our Norwegian boys, he's Swedish (need I say more?)

Btw: Did you see the results from the under-21 teams last night:

	England 0 - Norway 2 

--arne

    No further comments about the giraffe who stuck his neck out
    in .41. But in the good tradition of blaming one's defeats
    on a poor performance and the opponent's luck (as opposed to
    talent), my bet for tonight is England 3, Norway 1. The only
    reason being that Norway never played up to par, and England
    had a lucky spell.
    
    The dark horse tonight may be the Mexican referee...
    
    Henrik

    
>   Stefan, the way the English team played in Sweeden is the real reason behind
>   the gazza hype. Not too many people know him outside of England.
>   You wont find too many non-English people claiming gazza to be the
>   best player in the world. 

    I think the problem might be reverse. People outside England have seen
    more than enough of Gazza. It is the English that have not seen enough
    of other countries' footballers, they just assume that if you 
    stand out in the English League you're automatically World Class.
    
>   Stefan your boys have a chance tonight, not because Norway is a great or
>   good team no, its just because England are a weak team.

    Dave, 
    
    A slight misunderstanding. I'm Swedish, not Norwegian (spit, spit,
    spit)

   I should have guessed with a name like Stefan that you were Sweedish...

                                                               -dave-

    Re.48
    
    Oh thats it is it,we arent able to spot a good player,so is that why
    the Italians are making such a big fuss of him,I mean there arent too
    many good players in the Italian league are there.
    
    Face it lads,love him or hate him,he would walk into all your National
    sides.
    
    Dave...

    
    re-1
    
       Thats not true, he wouldn't get in Irelands team he's far to
       skillful and he cant launch the ball into orbit.
    
       Andy..B
    

   The laughing stock of Europe..... Andy what's yer record in Euro competition
after ye qualified and got to play good teams, like Ireland, Holland, former
Russia, Demark etc..... Like should we remind you how many goals ye scored!!!!!

   Iam just surprised your not playing tonight the way your talking, you seem
to know a lot about success. Maybe that's why English fans are not well liked
anywhere in the World (except Siberia) your always talking about how your going
to stuff the opposition, and by how many goals. Let's be realistic the only
fans on the planet that can speak in such terms are the German fans, and I 
haven't met too many big-headed ones yet.

    The sonner "Scotty" beams a few of ye back to earth then maybe we will hear
more realistic views in future.

                                                          -dave-

p.s I realistically think Ireland will scrape a draw against Denmark tonight,
    although it will be very difficult without Mcgrath, here's hoping.

Looking for the outside the Norwegians don't look so good and England has all
these big names, known the world over or just about.

BUT... 10-15 years ago nobody would habe betted on the Danes. The National 
Squad was not performing well, the League was not professional. The best elements
emigrated, then got more experienced and look what happened: Euro Champions.

The same logic could apply to the Norwegians. Most of the players that will
play at Wembley tonight play abroad and, with the confidence Scandinavian
football has gained last July...

I can see plenty goals tonight, as the English defence, as always, look
suspicious and the attack awesome (Gazza, Shearer, Wright!).

Prediction: 2-2

�JF?

    RE-52
    
    How many goals did Ireland score in the European championships
    in Sweden ?
    
    Enough said...
    
    Andy...B
    

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Note 266.0                      England V Norway                      16 replies
UPROAR::WOODWARDD "Dave Woodward"                    17 lines  13-OCT-1992 15:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    England team for the game 2nite is :
    
    
       		Woods
    		Dixon
    		Pearce
    		Batty
    		Walker
    		Adams (groan)
    		Platt
    		Gazza (hooray)
    		Shearer
    		Wright
    		Ince
    
    	Lets do  it !!!!
    
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Note 266.1                      England V Norway                         1 of 16
NEWOA::BURTON                                         4 lines  13-OCT-1992 15:55
                              -< Are yer shaw... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Is'nt the game 2morrow.
    
    Nige.
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Note 266.2                      England V Norway                         2 of 16
LOOKIN::MISTRY                                        5 lines  13-OCT-1992 15:59
                                -< Adams oh no >-
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Hi,

Yep the game is tomorrow. Question is why is he playing Adams and Ince....

Bipin.
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Note 266.3                      England V Norway                         3 of 16
UPROAR::WOODWARDD "Dave Woodward"                     5 lines  13-OCT-1992 16:01
                              -< days like these >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re :base
    
    	yes sorry, in state of shock re :adams/dixon/ince !
    
    dw.
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Note 266.4                      England V Norway                         4 of 16
MIACT::CARTERR "Confused of Birmingham.."             5 lines  13-OCT-1992 16:01
                               -< Sky at night? >-
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    Is the game on 'real' TV, or do I need to purchase some architectural
    acne in order to see the Lions roar, via Murdoch/Wonka-vision.
    
    Joe Public.
     
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Note 266.5                      England V Norway                         5 of 16
ARRODS::OHAGANB "Dirk, Nasty, Stig, Barry, Leggy"     8 lines  13-OCT-1992 16:11
                         -< Analogies-ville, Arizona >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re .last
    
    I really can't see the lions roaring with ringmaster Grim Taylor
    cracking the whip. :^)  
    
    barry.
    
    
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Note 266.6                      England V Norway                         6 of 16
PEKING::SHALLOMA                                     12 lines  13-OCT-1992 17:00
                   -< Adams isnt related to TAYLOR is he??? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rep-last few
    
    
    
    Yeah,I agree that I would prefer Adams out of the team and personally
    have Pallister in.But you can't really argue with the inclusion of
    Ince,he is playing the best football of his career and don't think he
    will let down anyone..
    
    
     Regards,
                          Aron...
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Note 266.7                      England V Norway                         7 of 16
OSLACT::HENRIKW "I need no spell chequer"             7 lines  13-OCT-1992 17:15
                            -< A view from abroad >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Seems to me - from across the North Sea - that Norway has never
    been *less* underestimated before an international game. 
    Judging from your comments, the Norwegian slogan should
    be "Clone Adams!"...
    
    Henrik
    (Oslo) 
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Note 266.8                      England V Norway                         8 of 16
FUTURS::FLETCHER                                      7 lines  13-OCT-1992 17:32
                             -< Get down the pub >-
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    Bet this note does not last until the morning.
    
    (something about not creating new topics for individual matches)
    
    PS. Its on SKY at 7
    
    Nigel
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Note 266.9                      England V Norway                         9 of 16
UPROAR::WOODWARDD "Dave Woodward"                     8 lines  14-OCT-1992 07:14
                            -< just hangin around >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    re: -1
    
    ITS 07:15 am + we're still here !!!!
    
    
    
    dw.
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Note 266.10                     England V Norway                        10 of 16
PEKING::BAREFIELDA "NEVER FELT MORE LIKE SINGING THE BLUES"  13 lines  14-OCT-1992 08:40
                                   -< !@#$% >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I have a good feeling about tonight, but then again I had a good
    feeling before the european championships. This has got to be the
    best team that England have fielded under Taylor apart from Adams.
    
    Prediction for tonight..
    
    ENGLAND 2  NORWAY 1
    Platt
    Shearer
    
    ANDY..B
    
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Note 266.11                     England V Norway                        11 of 16
NEWOA::BURTON                                         7 lines  14-OCT-1992 09:05
                            -< England 2  Norway 0 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Go on ENGLAND!!!!
    
    Just do it.
    
    Cheers
    Nige.
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Note 266.12                     England V Norway                        12 of 16
ARRODS::OHAGANB "Said you came from Memphis"          3 lines  14-OCT-1992 09:45
                             -< Look, no smileys. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Tony Adams to be man of the match tonight. 
    
    barry.
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Note 266.13                     England V Norway                        13 of 16
MACNAS::MJGREANEY "Bananna Republic"                   1 line  14-OCT-1992 10:53
                      -< where's "Our Nige's" place???? >-
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Note 266.14                     England V Norway                        14 of 16
MADBAS::DREES "Relegation....??"                      8 lines  14-OCT-1992 11:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I agree we one of the earlier notes. Why a seperate topic for this
    match ? There is after all a group topic where any comments about this
    match should be placed.
    
    Well Mod ?
    
    Del
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Note 266.15                     England V Norway                        15 of 16
UPROAR::WOODWARDD "Dave Woodward"                     6 lines  14-OCT-1992 12:08
                            -< I'm still standing >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re : the *very* existence of this topic.
    
    
    I must pull some weight with the mods :-) :-)
    
    dw.

    Andy I was beting on you coming back with that "childish" remark which folks
are used to. At least we know that Scotland are the best British team after the
Euro 92, but that wasn't hard. 

   The Irish don't spend half their lives braging about a team that plays
Rubbish, unlike you. When we win great, if we lose (which hasn't been often in
the past 5 years) then tough, but we except defeat, and agree that the 
opposition were better. Jimmy Hill is probably related to you, now there's a
man who knows what he's talking about (::). So Andy the next time yer beaten
don't go saying "Well if the defence had played better we might have won"  You
need mega brain cells to come up with that conclusion.

                                                            -dave-

    
    Whether Gazza is in the team or not won't make a spit of
    difference when up against Norway who are on the crest of
    a wave at the moment. They have faith in themselves unlike
    England who need a lift to regain their confidence. Maybe
    Gazza will do this but until that ball starts rolling 
    England won't win much.
    
    BTW, whether you like Gazza or not he proved in Italia '90
    that he is/was one of the worlds greatest players. He stood
    out amongst the handful in the world cup. He won't, however,
    be the worlds number one. He may have been had he not busted 
    his knee but he only has himself to blame for that.
    
    I can see England trying very hard tonight but with Adams in
    defence, Ince in the middle and players like Salako on the 
    bench I can see that any Norwegian attack will over run the
    back four, especially if its through the middle.
    
    Norway 4  England 1
    
    JN.

	For whoever predicted/whished a trashing for Norway, eat your
	own words.....
	
	The mighty England drew against Norway 1 - 1 at Wembley.
	Please stop rating either some players or the whole team, they
	are simply no good at the moment as their results demonstrate.
	
	Jamie, go and hide somewhere for the next two weeks...
	
								.Andre.

    
    Re-59
    What a load a rubbish you are spouting, if you had seen the game you
    would know this was a very good England performance if wasn't for some
    bad finishing then England would have won this game comfortably, fair
    play to Norway who came and got what they wanted, remember one thing
    England drew there opener qulifier against Sweden in the last World
    Cup qulifiers then went on to become the fourth best team in the world.....
    
    To all you Gazza bashers, watch this game and relise YOU ARE watching
    one of the best players in the world, up until last night he had only
    played two competitive games in 17 months and looked as if he hadn't
    been out at all, he is pure class....
    
    Neil..... 
    
      

    If it wasn't for this, if it wasn't for that......
    
    Come on Neil England could only scrape a disappointing 1-1 draw against
    a second rate footballing nation on the hallowed turf.  And Norway
    *were* a second rate team, ok they've stuffed San Marino and beat
    Holland but last night's performance showed they are a very limited
    team.
    
    Hold up your hand - England as a team were not good enough to beat
    them, whether you blame it on your strikers or your central defenders
    for being happy just to "hoof" balls forward in hope - the bottom line
    reads the same NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
    
    As for Gazza'a performance it is great to see him back and lasting 90
    minutes, but I thought he was a couple of yards too slow all over the
    park.  Taylor needed Salako or Merson on from the start.
    
    Well England have Turkey next and I suppose you'll all be happy to
    scrape a point against another second rate team.     
    
    		Brian.
                                                    

Holland - Poland   2-2


T_

    
    No complaints from me,if you dont take chances you dont win
    games.England created more chances in this game than they have in the
    last 5 games put together.Shearer and Wright both missed chances but
    they will come,keep them together.
     Even Adams had a good game,hopefully(injuries permitting) Taylor will
    be able to field the same team next month v Turkey,apart from Lee Dixon
    who will lose his place to Rob Jones if fit.
    
    Dave...

    Yes , England actually played some decent football which is a *good*
    sign for the future. Norway were let off the hook and were lucky to get
    a draw.
    	Even Tony (ee-aww) Adams played well - very well actually.
    
    The results will come if we carry on playing like this.
    
    dw.

    
    re: Gazza
    
    Gazza is a good footballer. He is also rude and stupid, plays for a
    mediocre club side and a mediocre national side.
    
    Therefore he is unlikely to ever be mentioned in the same context as
    Pele, Best, Cruyff, Charlton, Beckenbauer etc.
    
    Re: Last night's result
    
    Saying that if the finishing was better you would have won could be
    said for most teams.
    
    I think England did remarkably well last night to get a point. Norway
    have had a good run and must have fancied themselves.
    
    England will still qualify comfortably because they have the best
    players in the world, their league is the most competitive, their
    players have bottle, they never give up, they've got Jimmy Hill......
    .......
    
    
    Paul
    :)  :)   :)

    Everybody sing :
    
    Say.....oeh....aah....Ed de Goey,
    Say.....oeh....aah....Ed de Goey
    
    
    If Stanley Menzo was not in the goal last night in the game against
    poland,than we would have won the match easily, with at least 2-0.
    
    But now, due to some major errors of 'our' keeper Menzo, we drew 2 - 2.
    
    After 20 minutes 2 goals behind against Poland ?
    .....unbelievable
    

    Good to see England putting in a performance they can be proud of. 
    Norway came to defend and missed chances or not, England could only
    score once so they must have been very happy.
    
    Gazza looks much slimmer than I've ever seen him, he stood out as a
    different class last night.  I'm looking forward to seeing him fully
    fit.  Why he finds it necessary to do stupid things like elbowing the
    Norwegian defende I'll never know.
    
    Adrian
    

    I won't be critisicing this England performance. I thought the whole
    team played well, and if they play to this standard throughout the
    tournament, they'll qualify.
    
    I wouldn't break up Shearer/Wright. I thought they had the makings of a
    good partnership. Gazza was very good for a guy in his first
    competitive 90 minutes is 17 months. Batty, Platt, Pearce all played
    well.
    
    Norway suprised me by their mediocrity. They weren't very good were
    they?
    
    Platt, Shearer, Wright all should have scored. However, no complaints
    about a cracking equaliser, and hats off to Norway for sneaking a draw.
    
    The chip-on-shoulder brigade are going to criticise whatever. England
    are about as popular as a soiled nappy to some. But hey, who gives a
    sh*t! I love `em anyway.
    
    Tony
    
     

    
    	England didn't "scrape" a draw last night, they dominated the
    	in-form Norwegians for long periods of the game and will be
    	disappointed but not devastated at only getting a point.
    
    	But fair enough, if you don't take your chances whilst you're
    	controlling the game you will often get caught out by the late 
    	equaliser. Ian Wright missed two chances that he'd have buried
    	in an Arsenal shirt, so that's that.
    
    	I was proved right about the distribution from the full-backs;
    	Dixon's crossing and passing in attack was woeful. Adams, though,
    	had a good game - yes, I know ;-)
    
    	Batty and Ince did a lot of work to allow Gascoigne to create
    	with the ball, and I thought this side showed a lot of promise.
             
    	For heavens' sake, there are still 9 games left for England. We'll
    	be there at the end of this group...
    
    	Andy.

   I see no one complaining why England didn't win by a clear 3 goal margin
last night!!!!! All of a sudden you seem very happy with a point!!!!! Well Well
and the English team played well!!!! yea they sure did they managed to score a
goal!!!!! and that against a second rate team at home.. no offense to Norway.

  At least I predicted realistically when I mentioned a point against the 
present Euro champions would be a great result and that's what we got, but Iam
not braging about it..

Re .65  Yea Paul your right England will qualify easily, they have the best
        players, the best striking force in the world, and if by chance they
        don't make it, Iam sure some of their supporters will try to convince
        us that they really did!!!!!!!!

p.s JF, congrats on your team winning, Cantona scored an excellent goal.....

                                                        -dave-

    Taylor should certainly stick with this team, obviously replacing 
    Dixon with Rob Jones and perhaps making either Ince or Batty expendable
    if need be. Adams played very well (did'nt I tell you) and Wright_M
    should be a bit worried now about his England career. Give this team,
    with the above modifications, a few more run-outs and England could
    well qualify. 
    
    barry.
                                             

    Yes, we were very lucky. 1-1 on Wembley is celebrated as a victory
    over here in Norway. And we may well be a second-rate country,
    but it sure is strange how the 'first-rate countries' still fail
    to beat us... 
    
    Still, it'll be nice to enjoy watching England play again,
    without hoping they won't score a second goal. ;^)
                                 
    Henrik

    
    Re.70
    
    Who are the noters that are happy with a point,no one is.We could and
    should have hammered them but we didnt,what you will find is that most
    of the English noters are pleased with the way the team played.We are
    only concerned with England,so why dont you concentrate on your own
    National side,your Boring.
    
    Dave...

    How nice to hear that. It makes a change from the whining Scots and
    Irish who are more interested in attacking England than talking about
    their own teams.
    
    Tony
    
    

    
    Well I thought Norway deserved the win. Englands goal was a
    lucky deflection from a donkey shot.
    
    Gazza was fat and slow and Adams is about as creative as
    toilet paper.
    
    Yet Grim Failure thought it was a "right result".
    
    An England Veterans team could out play the current side.
    
    JN.

    It's really nice to read about all you folks saying how well England
    played on the night and what an improvement in performance you saw...
    BUT...in a years time when the crunch comes, all that you'll remember
    about last nights game was the home point dropped, it *may* prove
    decisive. 
    
    Qualifying is all about amassing more points than the other teams in
    your group, whether you play well in doing so is besides the point.
    
    I'll betcha that last night's "excellent team performance" will come
    back and bite yer bums!
    
    Tom

    
    
     Having watched the highlights of the game last night, I reckon England
    should be pretty pleased with their performance, if not the result.
    They certainly should have scored more than the 1 goal and have had the
    match well and truly over before the Norwegians scored. One thing that
    impressed me was the sharpness of Shearer and Wright up-front although
    their finishing was pretty poor. Also, where was the midfield when the
    Norwegian guy picked up the ball before scoring. He had loads of time
    and space to get it under control before firing in the shot.
    
     Danny.
    
    ps Some of the noters seem to be getting pretty upset about comments
    from the Scots and Irish fans. You should realise that all/most Scots,
    Irish, Welsh love to wind up England supporters and love to see England
    fall flat on their faces. This is due to the hype and arrogance of the
    tabloid rags, commentators and certain players who think that England
    is the be-all and end-all.
    
    pps As a Scotsman, I admit that Scotland were utter crap last night and
    were very fortunate to get a draw.
    
    ppps I saved my only cheer of the night until Norway equalised :-)
                                                                      

    
    RE last. You bet or Hope ;^)
    
    Re .75  " Well I thought Norway deserved the win"   
    
    	What ??  I might be reading you all wrong here, are you serious ?
    
    
      In these troubled economic times it's good to see there is still some
    consistency in life. England actually play well (but don't get the
    result) and we STILL get the "Let's slag of the English cos I don't 
    really have anything better to say" brigade spouting b*ll*cks.
    
    	Thanks .65  

  Re .73....

    Dave I suggest you read note .77 the ps section.... That basically sums up
some of my entries in this topic. The sooner some of ye realise that England are
a second rate team the better. Why do so some of ye start predicting some 
hilarious result like 4-0 for England?? Dave the only wording missing from 
Dannys note is that some of the noters in here think England are the be-all and
end-all.

                                                           -dave-

p.s Do you also consider the English team boring????

    This Dave Tanner is really annoying.  I've never heard such rubbish,
    but whatdo you expect from the Scottish.  He's just jealous cos he ain't
    English.
    
    Why do the Scots celebrate when they go out of the European
    Championships.     
    
    Its about time that the Scottish woke up.   
    
    We'll Scotland World Cup campaign is going really well ain't it.
    
    
    SWITZERLAND  3    SCOTLAND  1
    SCOTLAND     0    PORTUGAL  0
    
    
    
    
    Why don't you go into your own note and start making excuses cos
    Scotland are fast becoming a joke.
    
    And Leeds will beat Rangers.
    
    
                       Terry 

    
    RE.80
    
    Do I consider the England team boring ???
    
      No....not when compared to Ireland.
    
    Dave...

    
    
    re .77
    
     Fair comment about the tabloid papers and I for one have no objection
    to some of the replies about England, yours for example is a done with
    a smile or :-( to be exact.  It's the more un-tongue in cheek notes
    which run deeper than being pissed off with tabloid newspapers which 
    bore the sh*t out of me. 
    
    
    	Chris

    re .81
    
    "He's just jealous cos he ain't English"
    
    That has to be the biggest load of manure ever entered in this
    conference.
    
    Wake up mate, no Scot would *EVER* choose to be english instead.
    
    Kev...

    Refreshments are available from the foyer should an intermission
    occur. :^)
    
    barry.

The classic excuse from Trevor "Put me to Sleep" Brooking when Wright
missed a sitter last night. If he was playing for Arsenal he'd have put that
one away. Maybe all the players should play in their club shirts and then
England would never lose. :-)

�@

             
    	This notes conference should be renamed the XENOPHOBIC conference,
    	because that's what it's degenerated into...8-(
    
    	Some of the English noters' contributions are as bad/worse as 
    	some of the non-English noters' contributions so don't any of 
    	you get all steamed up about my comments being directed
    	specifically at *YOU*.
    
    	The crap is coming from both sides of the fence. Who started it?
    	Who cares....................
    
    	Andy.

    re .87
    
    The best one from Brooking was in the first half when a Platt pass was
    blocked by the ref and Norway took possession .  One of their forwards
    then got chopped down on the edge of the box and Brooking thought that
    the ref shouldn't have given the free kick because the ball rebounded
    to the Norwegian off of him and that would have levelled things up.
    
    Laughable, the English commentators really are something else.....
    
    		Brian

As I don't want this topic to become a Yugoslavian battlefield I set a couple
notes hidden.

Thanks for keeping the worst comments to yourselves.

Cheers
�JF?

    RE:-1
    
    You should have heard the Scotch one on SKY.
    
    England were playing Sweden as well according to him.
    
    Nigel

    
    
    re - 1
    
    Is that a Scotch whisky, a scotch egg or what?
    
    I think we should be told..
    
      Danny.

Hi,

Lets all be honest, England played well and deserved to win. However, as all
good football managers are prone to saying, "We would have won if we'd scored
more goals".

Bipin.

    
    RE-90
    
     At least Brooking knows the players names, not like that traiter
     Charlton..
    

    As an Irishman, I would like to say that I thought England played
    very well, they looked skillful, and just needed some more decisiveness
    in attack to polish off a very neat performance.
    
    The Norway goal was a beauty, but ENgland should have had the game
    signed, sealed and delivered at that stage.
    
    You will play worse and win.
    
    Cheers,
    
    *Tiger*

    re .95
    
    sounds like a bit of jealousy that england wasted the chance of having
    Charlton as manager....
    cause
      
                 J. Charlton  V.   G.(PRO Man) Taylor
    result at least    10     -       0
    
    if scores could go into minus then Taylor would have one....
    
    Colin.... 

So what's up with Holland then? They (and England of course) were going to 
walk away with this group. England continue to get results (well, sometimes!) 
with a bunch of definitely not world-class footballers but Holland, with REAL 
world-class performers just don't manage it - what's up Ton?

grahame

    
    England did everything right last night, their only problem was putting
    it in the back of the net. Wright and Shearer are very quick, Shearer
    the unluckier of the two, great header of the ball.
    The midfield looked solid enough and played well with gazza just in
    front. They definately needed some form of winger, that was a
    department in which we were lacking. Where was Andy Sinton ???
    The back four I think is the main concern, alright Adams played well
    enough but did you count the amount of times he hoofed it up the park,
    looked like he played for the wombles.... Woods was never really tested
    until the goal arrived, to which he may have been at fault. Using the
    wrong arm to go for the ball!!???
    
    Anyway from what I heard Scotland played bobbins and were lucky to hold
    on to the draw. Only 22,000 turned up at Ibrox, due to prices ranging
    from 12-20 pounds a go, not surprising for no goals.....
    
    mac (an exiled Scot in Angleterre)
    
    p.s. talking a few back about commentators knowing the players, after
    the highlights on Sportsnight, Jimmy (the chin, i'm the god of english
    football) Hill was asked to comment on some of the moves that England
    nearly scored on. One move involved three players, in which resulted in
    Platt chesting it down, turning and shooting, and the player that
    passed the ball on the volley was number 11 (paul ince) not ian wright,
    and this had be replayed about 2/3 times during the highlights... What
    can you say.  

    re-97
    
    Jealous! do be sensible.. I would rather keep Taylor, at least
    he knows the names of his players. I suprised Jack Charlton isn't
    a player manager, he's about the right age.
    
    Lets face it, we all know its a long way off, but in all noters
    hearts of hearts, we all know England will be at the Finals.
    
    Andy...B
    

              <<< Note 129.98 by FORTY2::ASH "Grahame Ash @REO" >>>
                        -< Changing the subject . . . >-

>>So what's up with Holland then? They (and England of course) were going to 
>>walk away with this group. England continue to get results (well, sometimes!) 
>>with a bunch of definitely not world-class footballers but Holland, with REAL 
>>world-class performers just don't manage it - what's up Ton?

>>grahame

Grahame,

I though nobody would ask :-)))

The Dutch side under new manager Dick Advocaat are going up and down.

They played crap against Norway and Norway derserved the 2-1 win, yesterday
against Poland was a different thing. Hans van Breukelen dicided to stop
playing for the national team and Advocaat choose Stanley Menzo and the
new goal-keeper, ofcourse Stanley plays for Ajax (Advocaat fancies Ajax :-(((.
The problem with Stanley is that he can't stand the pressure, always in
important games he makes mistakes (the ones yoy see DAve Beasant make).
Yesterday was the same, he made a terrible mistake wich let in the first
Polish goal and he also looked dodgy when the put in the second one just
minutes later. After that there was only one team on the pitch ie Holland.

In Injury time Peter van Vossen made 1-2 and with only 1 minute gone in the
second half van Vossen put 2-2 on the score-board. In the second half Poland
had one change trough Wlodie Smolarek (FC UTRECHT :_)))))) and Holland had
a least 15, both van Basten and Bergkamp were not on target and put the ball
wide of the goal or against the goal-keeper.

I think it will be a heck of a battle to qualify for the USA in 1994 'cause
all teams are strong except San Marino.

T_

    Re. -2  you say that Taylor knows the names of his players well i'm
    afraid thats all he knows...
    
    Colin...

    I find it hard to believe that there are England fans out there
    who really do expect us to crush the likes of Norway or walk away
    with a qualifying group. Even before Norway's World Cup campaign
    they showed their ability by beating the Italians in the Euro '92
    qualifiers. 
    
    The only team we are expected to crush in the group is San Marino. 
    Turkey? I remember a very uninspiring England team upstaged by a
    Turkish side in possession of superior passing skills during the
    Euro '92 qualifiers. And most people in here should be aware of how
    difficult the Poles can be so expect the customary tough match in
    Poland where we scrape through, just. 
    
    Only when style, promised last night, is matched by consistency
    can we really begin to compare ourselves with the likes of the
    Germans. Until then, forget it.
    
    barry.   
    
     
     

    re -????Ton
    
    You say it right, Ton. Holland had dozens of chances, but the ball just
    didn't want to roll in. And the two goals from Poland cannot be put on
    Menzo's account, only. The defense in total was a shame.....
    I remember when van Breukelen had his first games and made some
    remarkable faults.......and then everyone was crying for another.
    Menzo showed with Ajax that he can't stand the nerves !
    And ofcourse Advocaat favours Ajax, seeing last years result. The only
    problem is that you can't play Ajax' system with a lot of footballers
    from other clubs.
    But it will be very very hard for the Dutch to reach the USA now.....

re .103...

      I couldn't agree with you more. I seen that game live v Turkey at Wembley
and the Turks were basically in total control. The only thing they didn't do
was score. They will give a few teams headaches...

   Anyway Iam glad there's an English fan out there who knows what he's talking
about.

                                                                  -dave-

    
    Brown nose.
    
    JN.

    
    Ton,
    
    how dare you enter a note in here I thought this was the England/slag
    Enlgand note, stuff off Holland, get out now.
    
    By the way did you know that Andy did the dirty and got married in
    Florida a couple of weeks ago, see you in 31,
    
    Loz.
    
    ps :-)

    Just like to add my tuppence. IMO England played very well last night,
    they created chances and were also confident on the ball. Nine out of
    ten times they would probably have won 3 nil. But they will play a lot
    worse and still win some matches. As regards Taylor V Charlton - 
    Charlton has forgotton more about football than Taylor ever Knew.
    Enough said.
    
    Stephen

 <<< Note 129.107 by PEKING::JOLLYL "Viva la rock .... the killer lives on" >>>

    
>>    Ton,
    
>>    how dare you enter a note in here I thought this was the England/slag
>>    Enlgand note, stuff off Holland, get out now.
  
As the Dutch reincarnation of Vinnie I really feel at home here.
  
>>    By the way did you know that Andy did the dirty and got married in
>>    Florida a couple of weeks ago, see you in 31,
  
Whot a bugger, I spoke to him just before he left and he never mentioned it, 
I'll give him a bell today see how he's doing. I feel sorry for Emma ;_)))))

  
>>    Loz.
  
      T_  

>>    ps :-)

      pps :-) :-) :-)

Latest comment from Taylor in "The Star" 
"It is better to draw and play like that, then to win badly"
Someone come and take him away to the funny farm.

�@

Taylor doesn't seem to have many grey cells left. 

Bipin.

PS he's waiting for the return of John Barnes....

Turkey 4 San Marino 1

Turks got 3 in the last 4 minutes

 

    and apparently the Turkish fans again disgraced themselves...
    like they did against us last year.
    
    UEFA should wise up to these people ...make the Turks play their homes
    someplace else....lets see ...YES ..make them play in Greece.
    
    Now that'd be really turning the screw.. he he!
    
    *Tiger*

    I see that the mighty Carlton Palmer is in the English team again with
    all the good defenders in engerland and Taylor has to pick some one who
    admitted to the press "that he makes no excuses for his lack of skill"
    and then went on to say he "has a great work rate but that there is no
    one to benefit from it" what a load of c@#p.  Palmer is going to give
    great enjoyment for non-engerlanders who will watch his gallant attempt
    to "act" as a defender.  With a bit of luck Taylor will keep playing
    him so that buy the end of these qualifiers England will be
    deservedly(sp) out of the World Cup, Taylor will resign and England
    will become the minnows of world soccer.
    
    Colin..
    ^^^^^^^

Personally I think failing to qualify for the world cup would be a mixed blessing
for the English:

BAD because we don't get to take part (obviously).

GOOD because Graham Taylor would get sacked and be replaced by the mighty Glenn
Hoddle.

Mike

    
    Well England are back on the World Cup trail tomorrow with a game
    against Turkey nothing but a win will do I expect England to win
    easily with Shearer and Wright both producing the goods...
    
    If the papers are anything to go by there will only be one change
    Palmer coming in for the injured Batty.....
    
    So I'm going to stick my neck out and go for a score of a least 
    4-0,
    Shrearer 2
    Wright   1
    Gazza    1
     
    Neil.......  
    
    

	Woods
	Dixon
	Pearce
	Palmer
	Walker
	Adams
	Platt
	Gascoigne
	Shearer
	Wright
	Ince

Subs to be named tomorrow.

   If the game is in Istanbul then a draw wouldn't be a bad result, and a
win for the Turks would be no way a surprise, their supporters are fanatical
and sometimes dangerous... Is the game on SKY???? and if so what time????

   Remember the Turkish side in Wembley back in 91???? They played England of
the park but suffered from stage fright in front of goals.

                                                         -dave-

    
    Prediction time !!!!!!
               
    
    1-1...and Taylor's job is once more on the line !!
    

    
    England will win 3-0
    
    Shearer
    Platt
    Gazza..  
         
    Englands bubble is going to burst tonight and show the world
    that we mean business once again. I'm confident that England
    will be the only British side to win tonight, Scotland will
    be lucky to get anything out of their game against Italy, and
    Ireland, need we say any more about those clowns..
    
    Andy..B
    
             

    With all due respect Andy, Ireland are not a British team they are an
    Irish team, in the same way Barry McGuigan was Irish until he won
    something and Lennox Lewis was Canadian until he won something.
    
    		Brian.

    Well if the result of the U21 's is anything to go by 
    
    England 0 - 1 Turkey   well done  turkey is all i can say..
    
    Colin..
    ^^^^^^^

    
    	> well done  turkey is all i can say..
    
    	If only....

    REL.121
    
     Like Bernie Slaven, Ray Houghton, Tommy Coyne are Irish - until they
    cannot win something 8-)
    
    
    ... Stevie

    re -1 
    
    What about John Barnes and Butcher. They were not born in the UK.
    

    This 'Irish people suddenly becoming British when they achieve
    something' thing really sunk home the other night when I was watching
    Coronation Street on the box. Martin Platt ( the prat) called
    Oscar Wilde an Englishman. Ye Gods.
    
    BTW, if "JACK CHARLTON IS DESPICABLE" and the Irish are "clowns",
    then I don't know what to say about the person who disgraced this
    conference last summer when he made comments about Terry Yorath and
    his son, who died at the age of 12.
    
    You'd *NEVER* find an Irish supporter that would lower himself to
    those obvious rascist SHED depths. One of the main reasons why I left
    the Chelsea note was because I did'nt like the company of certain
    other noters.
    
    Nuff Said.
    
    *Tiger* 

    I'd also like to wish England good luck against Turkey tonight. Based
    on the u-21 score , they're gonna need it. Maybe the Turks won't
    bottle in front of goal like they did in 1991.
    
    Sincerely, I hope England qualify for 94...I want Ireland to face them
    in the USA. 
    
    *Tiger*

    
    I'm sure Terry Yoraths son was more than 12 when he died, may be
    you have yours and his age mixed up..
    
    Andy..B
    
    

    
    
    Andy. Does it really make a difference how old Terry Yoraths son
    was ? 
    
    On the Irish/English thing. Going by the few notes I've read so far
    it looks like turning ugly unlike the Rangers/Leeds banter we had
    a short while back.
    
    Before it does go any further perhaps its a good idea that its knocked
    on the head now before it does get stupid.
    
    As far as Ireland and England are concerned I get the best of both
    worlds. I cheer them both on. I was born in this country but my whole
    family before me (1932 and before) are Irish. I'm not sure though which 
    team I feel closer too. I am glad that both teams are in different
    groups for this World Cup.
    
    JN.

    
    >>I'm sure Terry Yoraths son was more than 12 when he died, may be
    >>you have yours and his age mixed up..
    
    I'm not certain Andy, all I know is he was a son to his mother and father
    and I'm sure his loss wounded them deeply.
    
    Can you understand those feelings of sympathy? More importantly, do 
    you have any conception of the pain they went/are going through? 
    
    	Perhaps the number 12 entered my head when I thought about the 
    	I.Q. rating of the Shed. No, not the average I.Q., the *SUM* of
    	all I.Q.s on the Shed. 
    
    *Tiger*

    Tiger
    
    I understand what you are saying about most of fans in the Shed being 
    thick.  (You have to be to support Chelsea), but you can't crictise all 
    Chelsea fans because of about 100 or so twats.  Most Chelsea fans, like 
    Millwall fans go to watch the match and not to sing songs which are sick, 
    about certain events. 
    
    Gary

    I hope England do well tonight
    
     *************** NOT ***********

    its about time England got a good kick in the A$#@ and not qualifying
    for the World Cup could do the trick.  The major thing wrong with the
    English Team is that slimy creep Taylor if only he could admit when
    England play crap,  if only he could resign and let a decent manager in
    but no that would be to smart instead he'll keep picking crap teams
    i.e. by chopping and changing all the time just because the team does
    not play well on its first outing together.  I really believe that I
    wouldn't hate England as much if Taylor wasn't around..
    But even with a new manager I still
    
    would not want them to win..     come on the Turks..

    Colin..
    ^^^^^^^

    
    	....... ,,,,,,,, just add where appropriate.
    
    	Thank you for your comments, I'm very grateful.
    
    	Andy.

    
    
    When will all English fans realise that the problem is not that you have 
    a dumplin' as a manager. The real problem lies in the fact that, like 
    Scotland, you have no international class players. 
    
    Wake up boys......if you don't have the players what can you do ?
    
    Del.

    
>   you have no international class players.
    
    Gazza, Pearce, Walker and Platt? But anyway 4 good players doesn't make
    a good team and I admit that we're crap at the moment
    
    and everybody hates us!! ;-(
    
    Tim

     re. .133
    
    Well at least I'm getting there next time i'll try to do better Sir..
    
    Colin..
    ^^^^^^^

    
    What time's the K.O for tonight's England V Turkey game?? 
    
    Nige.

8.00 at Wembley tonight, live on Sky (spit!) and highlights on BBC1 later.

g

    
    RE:-1
    
    Cheers Grahame.
    
    Nige.

    
    England to win 2-0 tonight,and so P*ssing off all the anti English
    Mc and O'Noters out there.
    
    Were on our way to the States...
    
    Dave...

    
      Dave,
    
      That's a bad attitude to have. It's not that we dislike the England
      team, it's the way you rate them that they are in the Top 10 teams in
      the world. At the moment they are not.
    
      They have alot of good skillful individual players who play well at
      club football but as a team they are unbalanced. Wheather this is 
      down to the manager we'll only know when you get rid of him.
    
      Gary....
    
    

    
    Like most of my fellow Celts, I'll be shouting for the Turks tonight
    for two reasons 
    	1. Graham Failure, whose team plays crap football despite Gazza,
    	   Shearer, Wright, Walker & Woods
    	2. Racists like "Andy..B"

    
  re 29.142
    
    ..... you forgot: 
    
    3. The 500 years of oppression, discrimination, etc, etc ;-)
    
    Tim  (Not even English according to Billy Bingham)

I think England do have the potential to be in the top 10 national sides in the
world, but we are hindered by our domestic schedule. (yawn...tired old subject)

If we cut down the number of games we play in domestic competitions, which could
be achieved by abandoning some of the poor cup competitions, and appointed Sir
Glenn Hoddle as manager we'd be up there with the best.

We certainly have the players:

Gascoigne, Lineker (I'm sure he'd play again for Glenn), Waddle (likewise),
Barnes, Salako, Platt, Walker, Pearce, Wright, Shearer, et. al.

Not to mention such potential superstars as Kevin Richardson, Dalian Atkinson,
Shaun Teale, Tony Daley, and Nigel Clough.

Unfortunately at the moment we don't play as well as we perhaps should. At the
moment I think the Republic are a superior side, and all credit to Big Jack 
for that. They deserved to beat us both times in the European qualifiers, and 
I'm sure they would have done a better job once they'd got there.

That said, I predict England will win 1-0 tonight, and David Platt will be the
scorer. Isn't he always?

Mike

                     <<< Note 129.144 by FORTY2::FOWLERM >>>
                            -< Top ten? No worries >-
��� but we are hindered by our domestic schedule. (yawn...tired old subject)
��� I think the Republic are a superior side, and all credit to Big Jack 

But all the Irish players play the same number of games.

�@

    Final score..... Att 42,000 ish
    
    
    England   4-0   Turkey
    Gascoigne
    Shearer
    Pearce
    Gascoigne
    
    
    Paul

    
    Latest score from Spain
    
    Spain 0-0 Ireland
    
    Spain have just had a player sent off
    
    60 mins gone
    
    Paul

    
    Paul Gascoigne put England back on the tracks for the world cup
    last night scoring two brilliant goals. England seemed to be looking
    at another bad night when Turkey hit the bar, but Gazza took
    the gobble out of Turkey when he scored his first after 16 minutes
    and then set up Wright who crossed to Shearer for the second
    with a diving header. Stuart Pearce scored the third from a
    free-kick in the second half and then Des walker with a great
    run, set up Gazza who rounded the keeper and then finished
    the Turks off...    
    
          ENGLAND AND GAZZA ARE BACK....
    
    
    Andy..B
    
    
    

    
    The best England performance under Graham Taylor.A good game with all
    the England side playing well,obviously Gascoigne  but Ince,
    Dixon and Wright stood out for me.Wright had an excellent game and a
    goal will surely come against San Marino.
     A good win that will help the goals for column,with another two points
    v San Marino in Febuary,that will set up up nicely for the more testing
    games v Holland,Poland and Norway.
    
    Dave...

    
    Nothing much to add a great performance from a side thats starting
    to ooze confidence and quality...Quality performance....
    
    If Gascoigne carries on playing like this the tag of "Greatest
    Footballer in the World"  will be his........
    
    Neil..
    

Who was the Turkish No. 7

His free kick at the beginning of the second half should go down as was
of the greatest not to have gone in.

For those who didn't see it, he struck the ball as sweetly as any
Multi-Million rated player from at least 40 Yards, forcing Woods into a great 
save.

That would have been a hell of a way for Turkey to score their first goal
against England ( Agg. Score now 27-0 )

A very good performance last night. It would appear that Graham Failure has
finally found the core for a good team. I still think the team needs a couple
more quality players to be serious contenders. Even though every player put in
a good showing, I think Palmer & Adams could come unstuck against better 
quality opposition.

Gazza has definitely returned to the international scene in style. Every time
he got the ball he looked dangerous.

As mentioned on Sportsnight, I agree that Shearer's goal was one of the best
goals scored by England in a long time.

Al

    
    Erm, Mr Casey, come in Mr Casey......
    
    Tony
    
    

    Comments:

    Yes hello I'm here with Match comments.

    I did say that Palmer was C@#p and even he admitted before the match in
    as many words.  He's just a long string of misery who gets in the way
    all the time.  To the naked eye last nigh the proved me right he's
    useless surely there is a better defender than him in England.  As for
    Adams the donkey what can I say he should be put back out in the field
    to graze.  Poor lad has not been the same since he was locked away.  

    How can I put this Gazza is *NOT* the best player in the world and has
    a long way to go yet before he can fit into the shoe's of the previous
    world bests.  I'll be the first to admit he's a great player but he has
    a lot of maturing to do yet.  

    I can't retract my comments on Mr. Taylor he's still a creep and always
    will be and the sooner he quits the better.

    Another point just as well Turkey didn't score just one of there Golden
    opportunities else the game would have taken a whole different twist.

    
    I must say though Well Done yee have beaten
    
       the World No.1 team Turkey so give yourselves a good pat on the back
    and enjoy life because it could be a whole different ball game when yee
    meet the Mighty Dutch and Polish..
    
    Cheers chaps..
    
    Colin..
    ^^^^^^^

    
    Re .153
    
    You're not English then ?
    
    Paul

    C'mon Casey....outta here back to 130 now!!!
    
    Let them enjoy their moment of pleasure....It'll give them something to
    look back on when we're in the USA and they're in front of the telly,
    watching the rest of the World and the IRISH enjoying W.C. 94
    
    I'm just waiting to see what happens when one of those Italian 
    Stallion defenders decides to crease Mr Gascoigne's bum over the
    stand. 
    
    I wonder how well will England play then....?
    
    
    *Tiger*

    
  >>  I'm just waiting to see what happens when one of those Italian 
  >>  Stallion defenders decides to crease Mr Gascoigne's bum over the
  >>  stand. 
    
      I hope not because that fine Italian Stallion will get lost in
      all that blubber.

    
    Come now chaps, aren't you all getting a little carried away(as usual)
    A scraped 1-1 draw against a 2nd rate team, and a home win against a
    team whose defence was full of holes. Once you play well against
    quality sides then you can start bragging. As for the big bubble-head,
    he was given 2 goals on a plate. He's hardly set the game on fire in
    Italy, wonder why that is? OH, he's up against quality players every
    week. What a waste of money and headlines!!!!
    
     Danny.
    
    
    ps Just to prove I'm not totally against Engerland, I thought Shearer's
    goal last night was a bit special.

    What satisfying reading this note is. A nice place for the 'other' people 
    of these islands to have a whinge. Well balanced fellas, to a man; chips 
    on *both* shoulders.
    
    Ian.                                                   

    
    
    Lets face it, most of thses replies only mean one thing..
    
    
            You wish that you were English, well your not, so get in 
            your kilts  or get your Leprechaun uniform on..
    

    
    
>    Lets face it, most of thses replies only mean one thing..
>    
>    
>            You wish that you were English, well your not, so get in 
>            your kilts  or get your Leprechaun uniform on..
    
    
    
     I don't know how you make that one out ??
       

Can you please put an end to this boring Scottish-English banter? The world
is not interested.

Thanks

JF Mod.

    
    
    The English team have every reason to feel pleased about the way
    they played Wednesday Evening.
    
    So what if Turkey are a third rate team ? They are much better then
    they used to be and can play football.
    
    The difference between England now and the Euro Champs, apart from
    the inclusion of Gazza, is simply that the team couldn't win against
    third rate teams but the story is different now. So any third rate
    team (and if this is to include Turkey) should be put in their place
    by an England team who hopefully is starting to get it together.
    
    Therefore the team can be pleased for itself and the fans can join in
    as well as it looks like teams that England should win against will be
    defeated.
    
    For the game itself I thought England were lucky in the first 15
    minutes and a goal from Turkey here could have altered the game
    dramatically.
    
    I couldn't believe Wright was so unlucky. He played well and played
    a great part in the attacking performance with more or less all of his 
    attempts on goal being on target.
    
    Palmer and Adams shouldn't be in there, especially Palmer. That is one
    change Taylor will have to make IMO.
    
    JN.
    
    

    
     re:1 
     Good, lets get some sanity back to this note.......
    
     The Gazza bandwagon roles on with all the papers down here having
     at least two pages on the Genius, love him or hate him he really
     has put the smile back into English football.....
    
     Here are some facts and figures on Gazza's remarkable game against
     Turkey
    
     PASSES ON TARGET..................41
     PASSES OFF TARGET.................7
     FOULS COMMITTED...................0
     FOULS ON HIM......................1
     SUCCESSFUL TACKLES................1
     UNSUCCESSFUL TACKLES..............0
     TACKLED IN POSSESSION.............1
     LOST CONTROL OF BALL..............4
     CORNERS TAKEN.....................10
     FREE-KICKS TAKEN..................2
     HEADERS...........................4
     CROSSES...........................1
     SHOTS OFF TARGET..................0
     SHOTS ON TARGET...................2
     GOALS.............................2
    
     Here are some quotes from his team mates who help Gazza to these
     impressive statistics.
    
     Paul Ince :    'WE FEEL WE'LL BEAT ANYONE WITH HIM'
    
     Lee Dixon:     'JUST TO LOOK AT GAZZA IN THE WARM-UP GIVES YOU A LIFT'
    
     Alan Shearer:  "People say he's replaceable but he's not. He's a
                    natural, a one off"
    
     THE MANAGER:
     Graham Taylor: 'I'LL BUILD MY TEAM ROUND HIM'
    
     all printed without premission from the GAZZA RAG..
    
     If I've got a bit more time I'll enter more quotes from Gazza's
     England team mates....
    
     Rgds
     Neil...
    

    
    Off the beat and track, I got a fax printed in the Sun today.
    
    Tony
    
    

    Neil,
    
    A touch of cunnovitus perhaps or maybe a manky old fishing rod with a
    huge amount of quality bait on the end of it.
    
    		Brian

    Re 164
    
    Tony what are you doing reading the Sun, when all these years you
    claimed to be a Socialist.
    
    Gary

    >>
    >>     If I've got a bit more time I'll enter more quotes from Gazza's
    >>     England team mates....
    >>   
    
    
    	I can't wait!

    I find a lot of the England wind-ups both annoying and amusing. England
    and their fans ought to be pleased with a 4-0 win, especially since
    these are the games that they would squeak out with an 85th minute goal
    for a 1-0 win in the past. 
    
    As for this "England are the greatest team on earth and have already
    WON the World Cup" nonsense, keep in mind the Norway game, and that the
    qualifaication rounds have barely started. 2 games each against Holland
    and Poland will tell the story.
    
    Tom

    
    
    Thanks Tom. Its about time these England supporters were put
    in their place.
    
    England, greatest team on earth ?? Pah, what nonsense.
    
    I love Scotland. Scotland for the world cup. Or Ireland, whoevers
    winning.
    
    JN.

    
    I find the reaction to the Turkey game incredible.  Yes, it was a great
    win.  Yes Gazza is a very talented player but many of his team-mates
    are mediocre.
    
    Turkey are not world beaters.  They scored once in the European
    championship qualifers and lost every game.  They were drawing 1-1 with
    San Marino with 3 minutesleft in Ankara.  England will also thump San
    Marino but Holland will be the real test.
    
    As for Gazza, well football needs heroes.  Gazza has bags of talent and
    he excites.  People come just to watch him.  Because of this we can
    forgive him a lot of the idiotic stuff.  He may well carry England
    through to the World Cup finals.  Ireland don't have a Gazza.  We don't
    have a player that can produce that kind of magic.  Our best player is
    a centre-half.  We do however have a team and we can survive the loss
    of some of our star players.  Ireland have already gone and drawn with
    Denmark in Copenhagen and with Spain in Seville.  Indeed we should have
    won in Seville.  Effectively England are a point down having drawn with
    Norway at Wembley.  Holland are also struggling.  There's a long way to
    go yet.
    
    Gary.

Yes the Cry Baby is at it again. He scored his first goal in Italy yesterday
to earn Lazio a point in the Derby against Roma. His goal came after 
86 minutes, and what did he do for the remaining 4 minutes, yes you guessed
it, he cried his eyes out. He then ran to the Lazio fans after the game and
threw them his tear soaked shirt. 
What a Man :-)

�@ 

Friendly result:

	Uruguay 0 Poland 1

Still a hell of a lot to do for England . . .

g

    
    
    Re ESSB::BLONG
    
    You have to appreciate what this local derby means to the Roma
    and Lazio supporters especially since there is only a couple of
    points seperating the two teams.
    
    The Italians are fanatical about their football, as you well know.
    The sheer number of fans attending serie A games is quite fantastic
    and they treat their star players like Gods.
    
    So, if Gazza equalises in the 86th minute of a local derby when
    feelings are running high along with the tension AND its also his
    first LEAGUE goal for Lazio then I believe his emotions are entitled
    to get the better of him. My opinion isn't based on the fact that he
    plays for England as that doesn't matter, he could be Irish, Welsh or
    Scottish.
    
    Most men won't cry in public through fear of being called a softy,
    nancy boy or whatever and because boys don't cry and daddy told them
    off for crying when they were a kid.
    
    One sign of being a man is not being afraid to cry. Woman quite like
    it in a way as it shows men do have feelings.
    
    So, sob sob, there.
    
    JN. )

    
     I wonder what gushing Gazza will do if he actually wins something with
    his club or country. After all, he burst into tears when he got booked
    playing for Engerland, now he's at it again after scoring 1 goal for
    Lazio, and he was still bubbling like a baby 20 minutes after the game.
    
     I think I'll give this Saturdays's Gazzetta on Channel 4 a miss. I
    don't have enough supplies of Klennex to go round.
    
     Danny.
    
    ps On the subject of channel 4, wasn't it simply spiffingly marvellous
    to here Ray Wilkins and that other un-biased commentator heaping praise
    on the fat-boy on Sunday. The fact that they were watching and
    commentating on a different game doesn't matter, they've just got to
    get onto their knees and praise the over-rated one!!

    Lads go easy on Gazzer, after all his diet consists of jelly beans and
mars bars.... and babys tend to cry no matter what the situation is!!!!!  

                                                a gu gu gu!!!!!!!!!

                                                      -dave-

    
    Anyone who thinks Gazza is rubbish only means one thing!!!
    
      Your either Scottish, Irish or just plain jealous
    

   Andy I didnt say he was rubbish, I just said he was a baby!!!!! Are ye by
any chance related!!!!!

                                                                 -dave

    
    
     I didnae say he's rubbish, just vastly over-rated.
    
     Danny.
    
    ps I'm not Scottish, Irish, Welsh, nor am I jealous of a fat turd
    like Gazza!!!!!

    Re. -3

    God those lines sound familiar I wonder where I heard them.  Anyway
    now one said he was rubbish.  They just said he's a big baby and by the
    way you carry on sometimes wonder if ye are related(Well are ye).  Its
    not his fault he cries all the time.  I know he wants to be in the
    headlines all the time but by scoring against Roma he probably would
    have he didn't have to go overboard by crying.  Players scoring in
    their first World Cup Final wouldn't react like he did only you would
    understand it a bit more if they did.

    Again as regards him being rubbish his goal was brill. but for the rest
    of the match he was out of it..

    Colin..
    ^^^^^^^

    
    Gazza's a very emotional person and cannot hide his feelings. There's
    nothing too wrong with that. I like him all the more for it. He's a
    very genuine person and a typical Geordie.
                                             
    Tim

    
    If Gazza wants to cry then let him. There is obviously *very*
    few people who understand his burning desire to play and what
    playing football actually means to him along with winning and
    scoring goals and displaying his *RARE* talent.
    
    He loves the big occasion and Italian football is the ideal 
    stage for him. He loves to please people and nothing gives him
    more pleasure than making people happy. I seriously doubt he
    gives a toss about the headlines so therefore he doesn't grab
    them intentionaly.
    
    JN.

    The story goes he was still crying 20 minutes after the end of the
    game, in the locker room.
    
    I suppose there was too much emotion, after 16 months injured and
    several trillions Lire later, to score his first in the local derby was
    just too much.
    I don't care if he cries or moans I like his class. You can't beat
    Cantona for temper though.
    
    JF

    
    Paul Walsh has a temper about him. Just ask Ray Clemence.
    
    JN.

    
    	Gazza is hyped beyond all proportion, and we're glad he's playing 
	for us!! I'm sure he could have unearthed some convaluted reason
	for playing for Wales/Scotland/Ireland/N.Ireland.. .;-)

    	So many very gifted players are not English. We have too many average
    	players playing international football right now.
  
    	But we still, and will continue to, support them and take all this
	anti-English stuff on the chin. I know we're NOT the greatest
	in the galaxy but it won't stop us wanting and trying to be...

	I don't expect you all to agree with me. I'd be amazed if you 
	did 8-)

    	Andy.

    T�rkey      1 - 3   Holland
    
    Feyyaz              van Vossen
                        Gullit
                        van Vossen
    
    
    Holland finaly won a game, although they were very lucky to do so !
    But thanks to Peter van Vossen, who also saved us against Poland with
    two goals ( Holland 2 - 2 Poland) we actually managed to win the full
    two points in T�rkey.
    
    By the way, van Vossen scored four times in two full matches.
    (2 caps and four goals !!)
    

    Who is Van Vossen ???
    Never heard of him before, what club does he play for ???
    
    Was Bergkamp playing, surely he'd have scored if he was playing.
    
    Colm.

    
    Did Eric Viscaal play? and if so, how did he? (Newcastle may be buying
    him).
    
    Tim,

    
    I saw the game on SKY last night.Very good result for Holland without
    Van Basten and Bergkamp.Turkey as usual were full of good Football
    until they got antwhere near the goal.
     Holland dont look good defensivly but Turkey wernt good enough to take
    advantage of it.
    
    The commentators thought the score flattered Holland,but it doesnt
    matter really they got the points and are right back in the group.
    
    Really England should beat Turkey in Turkey,we keep getting told what a
    up and coming side they are but they arent very good.
    
    Dave...

    
Re .- a few back
    
<<    Who is Van Vossen ???
<<    Never heard of him before, what club does he play for ???
  
    He's in Belgium for a few years now. He was playing for Beveren last
    Year, and for Anderlecht this year.
    
    Unfortunately he's not always playing as good for his team than for
    Holland. I don't think he even managed to score two goals in match
    like he's doing with his national team. Really pity because he has
    cost a lot.                                                       
    
    

 <<< Note 129.188 by PLUNDR::MORAN "Well Des, it was a bit of a bobbler...." >>>

    
>>    Did Eric Viscaal play? and if so, how did he? (Newcastle may be buying
>>    him).
    
>>    Tim,

Tim,

he played and that is the only thing that can be said, he was more on the ground
than he ball but never got a free kick.

T_

    
    Thanks Ton. I wonder if Keegan has been 'put off'.
    
    Tim

    
    
    Hang on I'll ask him !!!
    
    
    Gary..

(Time for a sensible reply!)

		P  W  D  L  F  A  Pts
Norway		4  3  1  0 15  2  7
England		2  1  1  0  5  1  3
Netherlands	3  1  1  1  6  5  3
Poland		2  1  1  0  3  2  3
Turkey		4  1  0  3  5  9  2
San Marino	3  0  0  3  1 16  0

Next game on 17 Feb: England v San Marino

g

rep -1

Grahame,

your too good to be true :-)))))))

T_

 <<< Note 129.192 by PLUNDR::MORAN "Well Des, it was a bit of a bobbler...." >>>

    
>>    Thanks Ton. I wonder if Keegan has been 'put off'.
    
>>    Tim

Tim,

I hope for Newcastle he is, 'cause the price for Viscaal is quite high
and I don't he is the kind of player who can get along in the English
League.

T_

    
    A fee of �700K was agreed for Viscaal, but his wife (!) vetoed the move
    anyway - she didn't fancy England.
    
    Tim

    
    Should be an avalanche of goals at Wembley this wednesday as
    England take on the very good San Marino side. 
    England side::Woods,Pearce,Walker,Adams,Dixon,Ince,Gazza,Platt,Merson
    Barnes,Ferdinand( Wright in place of Merson if fit).
    
    I predict a score line of  ENGLAND 12  San Marino 0
    
    Gazza (6)  Platt (1)  Ince (1)  Ferdinand (1)  Adams (1) Woods (2)
    \
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
      

    
    	I think you might regret that note by Thursday morning, Andy...;-)
    
    	I'll settle for 3 or 4 nil..
    
    	
    
    
    	...to England, of course.
    
    	Andy.

    
    England are bound to score more against San Marino than the Jocks
    did, but lets face it the jocks are crap. I see Ireland are playing
    Wales also during the week, that should be great game between to
    sides who both lack anything to do with football. I suppose Jack 
    Charlton will come out with another excuse because his side have 
    drawn yet again and some how never seem to win any. 
    
    Sorry but i have changed my mind and I know think the score will
    be 14-0 to England with Gazza getting (8)..
    

    
    Re.199
    
    3 or 4 nil would be dissapointing imo.Goals are needed and England
    will never get a better chance to score a hatfull.I saw San Marino play
    Norway and Turkey and they are without doubt the worst international
    side I have ever seen..(apart from Ireland that is)..They are
    dreadfull.
    
    England should play the most attacking line up possible,maybe only
    playing 3 at the back to allow for another attacking midfielder.We dont
    want them to get in each others way going for goals but two wingers
    should do the trick.
    
                             Woods
          
    Dixon                    Walker                Pearce
    
                              Ince
                 Gascoigne            Platt
    
      Merson       Wright        Ferdinand        Barnes
    
    
    If Wright doesnt make it then Barnes should play in the middle with
    Sharpe on the wing.
    
    I'll go for 8-0.
    
    Dave...  

>>then Barnes should play in the middle with

Barnes shouldn't play. Period. He's done nothing for England, and even less for
'pool this season.

Stick Brian Deane or Paul Warhurst down the middle; that would really rattle
San Marino.

    
    I can't see what is the fuss is about Ferdinand - is it because he
    plays for a London team and was subject to transfer speculation earlier
    in the season ? 
    
    Okay so he's scored a few goals this season, but he hasn't been a
    regular scorer for the last couple of months and the vast majority of
    his goals are scored at home.
    
    Even though he's only been playing in Jocko land, I'd rather see Hateley
    given a chance again - at least he's been consistant over the last few
    years and not some 'here today, gone tomorrow' London player - I'm
    surprised that Barmby hasn't been suggested, even if he is a good
    player, the way the MOTD commentators rave over him is vomit inducing.
    
    
    Paul                                                                   

    
    Paul..
    
    I agree about Hately..I would have liked to see him in the squad and
    playing.After all he scored goals when he was a regular for England in
    the mid 80's.
    
    Re-2 Barnes
    As for Barnes well we have to include him as he is in the squad,I would
    much rather see Waddle getting a game,he is in much better form than
    Barnes.Graham Taylor has picked his squad and no matter who we would
    like to see playing we can only pick players from the squad..so Barnes
    plays as its very doubtfull that Taylor has included him in the squad
    and not play him.
    
    Dave...

    
    Hately was o.k in the mid-80's but you have to remember that now
    he's playing at a very low level in the Jock league.

    
    
     re last
    
     Maybe he is playing in a so-called low level Jock league, but he
    still has the ability to score and make goals. Witness his performance
    against the best the sassenachs could offer at Elland Road. 
    
     Danny.

    
    I must admit that leeds are a very poor premier league side and it
    didnt suprise me when Rangers beat them. But you must see that Hatley
    these days plays in a league of a very low standard and for that
    reason should not be put into a side that is filled with superb
    talent and world class players, look what happened to Rangers on
    saturday.........

    6-0 : Gazza (3) Ince (1) Platt (1) Ferdinand (1) - About right.
    
    

    
    > But you must see that Hatley
    >these days plays in a league of a very low standard and for that
    >reason should not be put into a side that is filled with superb
    >talent and world class players, look what happened to Rangers on
    > saturday.........
    
    I take it you're against picking anyone from the English premier league
    then.
    
    Gary.

    
    Dont talk crap!  Leeds got handed the league last year, how can
    you call them the best in the English league...

    
    Why dont you go and chew on haggis

    That's what I like....
    
    Well thought out, constructive criticism    :^)...
    
    
    

  
  <<< Note 129.213 by PEKING::BAREFIELDA "JACK CHARLTON IS DESPICABLE" >>>
   
      Can you tell me why your personal name reads as it does. What have you
against big Jack?

    
      Cunno

    
    I don't reckon Graham Taylor will change the succesful team pattern he
    has found, now Gazza is back. I think he will bring in Ferdinand and 
    Barnes in as straight replacements for the injured strikers and
    encourage the back four to go forward as often as possible.
    
    We need ten goals to overtake Norway's goal difference, but I think we
    are more likely to win seven or eight nil.
    
    Expected team:
    
    				Woods
    
    			Dixon          Pearce
    
    			    Adams  Walker
    
    			Palmer  Ince  Platt
    
    				Gazza
    
    			Ferdinand    Barnes
    
    
    Remember after the Turkey game that Taylor said that the players in
    that game were the ones in possesion of their England places.
    
    			Steve.                          
    

    
    The England team on sky::Woods
                             Walker
                             Dixon
                             Adams
                             Dorigo
                             Palmer
                             Ince
                             Gazza
                             Platt
                             Ferdinand
                             Barnes
    
                             

    re.216;
    
    Platt is being moved into a fully attacking role with Ferdinand,
    according to the Express. Also, Ince is doubtful after he rushed home
    last night to see his ill son.
    
    GrEg...

    
    Great pictures of Gazza in the Sun today with his Gazziator oufit on.
    
    With a great little write up........
       
              ENTER THE GAZZIATOR
          
      SWORD BLIMEY!! Hail Gazza, the warrior preparing to throw San Marino
      to the Lions tonight.
      England fans will be baying for goals and Paul Gascoigne will be 
      Roman round Wembley determined to carve up the World Cup minnows.
      Let's hope Graham Taylor's GAZZIATOR can rule the show and become
      San Marino's Terminator..
    
      Love him or hate him he's a great character and a brilliant
      footballer. And if anyone can break Malcolm Macdonald's 5 goal
      record it's got to be GAZZA.
    
      I expect England to win easily and double figures isn't out of the
      question........
    
      Neil...
     

    
    England 4                 1	San Marino 
      	Barnes (2)		  The postman
    	Fat Boy
    	Ferdinand

    re:    -< Remeber where you heard it first ... >
    
    ...and so yet another incredibly interesting predictions note topic
    was started. Here's a few more to keep us all happy :-)
    
    	England 1  	1 San Marino
    	England 2  	1 San Marino
    	England 3  	1 San Marino
    	England 1  	2 San Marino
    	England 1  	3 San Marino
    	England 1  	0 San Marino
    	England 2  	0 San Marino
    	England 3  	0 San Marino
    	England 0  	3 San Marino
    	England 0  	2 San Marino
    	England 0  	1 San Marino
    
    Al. - let me know if I win!

    Is Ince playing tonight? Or is his son in a bad way?
    

    
    Ince isnt playing...Batty takes his place.
    
    Dave...

    
    
     Ince is OUT, Batty will replace him....
    
     Neil..

    
    England 6  San marino 0
    Platt 4
    Palmer
    Ferdinand/Adams
    
    England were rubbish but still got 6,hit the bar had two cleared off the
    line and missed a penalty.
    
    The only two players who played well imo were Platt and Batty.
    
    Dixon and Barnes have made there last appearence for England
    hopefully, and lets just hope Gascoignes performance was a one off,he
    was Sh*t.
    
    Still we are two points ahead of Holland with a far better goal
    difference and have a game in hand over Norway.Sitting pretty.
    
    Dave...

  England 6 San Marino 0

  Apathetic display by England who found it very difficult to break down the
opposition. If I were John Barnes, I would have walked off the field. What
sort of mindless fans support England that they could boo one of their 
players everytime he touched the ball. I have seen many international games
but never saw a player from the home team subjected to such abuse. After
watching that, I hope England go out of the world cup on goal difference.


      Cunno

    Re 226
    
    The reason he was booed, was for the fact that he's crap.  Also I
    thought Ireland weren't much better against crap opposition, lucky to
    win via two late goals and for saying what you did about England....  
    I hope you can't get tickets to the scouse derby.
    
    
    Barry

Barnes was no more crap than 10 other England players I could name, but won't
bother. There was absolutely no excuse at all for the abuse he got last night
and it is a bloody disgrace to English football that morons like that are
allowed out of whatever institutions they live in to watch the game.

The thing that bugs me is that surely whenever Graham Taylor goes to Sheffield
to watch Carlton Palmer and David Hirst he must also see Chris Waddle. Why
isn't Waddle in the team? I just don't understand....

To me, all Taylor seems to care about is work rate and not answering questions
when asked. I'm sure Lord Brian Clough or Glenn Hoddle could do better.

The best bit of the game was Peter "The Cat" Bonetti giving Woods a bit of 
practice at half time. Does he help manage the team now?

Mike

    
    Rubbish!! Barnes has had enough chances to prove himself, yet again he
    fails to produce the goods the fans pay there money and are entitled
    to vent their anger on who they want, so it was Barnes, tough shit he's
    one of the best paid players in this country, kick him out of the
    England side then he won't have put up with the abuse, i've defended him
    on numerous occasions and like many others are fed up waiting for him
    to produce a display that warrants his pay packet. I'm afaid he's
    over weight, he's over paid and he's over stayed he's welcome in the 
    England set-up. 
    
    Poor performance last night but a 6-0 win will do for me....
    
     Neil...
    
    
     

    Re 228
    
    Mike
    
    Barnes was crap.  England didn't play well, I know but there was not
    two players that played worse than him.  How you can compare Platt's
    performance to that of Barnes I find unbelivable.  Platt was the
    perfect player that England need.  
    
    I also think Mike if you had shelled out �20 a ticket to watch that
    crap then you might have got frustrated.  It might have dawned on you
    that Barnes did nothing.   
    
    
    Barry

    FWIW: a Norwegian paper calls Barnes "a disaster" after
    last night's performance. The Norwegian coach Egil Olsen
    was "a bit impressed by San Marino, a bit disappointed by
    England".
    
    Now back to your regular abuse. ;^)
    
    Henrik

	I watched the match last night on BBC and I must say that England
	were poor. The problem seemed to be with the final pass into
	the penalty area, often it would be hit a long the ground into
	a wall of defenders.

	A good point was made by Terry Venables in that the first goal
	came from a corner were Barnes flicked it on for Platt to score.
	John Barnes was then free at the near post for the next 17 or
	so corners, but they never used him again until later in the match.
	And when England decided to play the ball to the near post, it was
	only when San Marino had put a player in front of him.
 
	IMO the crowd were using John Barnes as a scapegoat, for it is
	difficult to believe that an England team could put in as a whole
	such a bad performance. Sad really but a sign of the times.

	Phil.

    And only 3 mentions of 1966 by the Sky commentator.
    Things are improving :^)...
    
    1. Debatable 2nd goal....."Shades of 1966 there!!"
    
    2. And the recent new of Bobby Moore's illness...all the country's
       wishes are with him, even more than in 1966.
    
    3. And a 4th goal for Platt, who was only 6 weeks old when we won
       in 1966.
    

    
    John Motson on BBC also managed to squeeze 1966 in twice.
    
    1. Debatable 2nd goal as was mentioned in the previous note.
    
    2. When the fat boy hit the bar in the 2nd half and it came straight
       down he said "that bounced the wrong side of the line unlike Hurst
       in '66"...or something like that.
    
    What a tosser.
    
    Del.
    
    Del.

Re .231

Hi Henrik,

So, are Norway feeling pretty confident now? More points, better goal 
difference . . . if your newspaers are like ours, you'll be planning your US 
trips by now.

g

ps I agreed with Neil cossey's note - I'm off for a lie-down.

    
    Whats wrong with talking about 66, at least we have past glories to 
    talk about. Anyway you better get ready becuase all your gonna hear
    soon is how we won in 94 .....

    
    Since the Norway game San Marino have learnt that they cant go out and
    attack, so all they do is defend and trying to break down a 11 man
    defence is difficult, if England had played San Marino the same night
    Norway did then England too would have slaughtered them and lets face 
    it England could have won by a ten goal margin last night except for
    some bad misses and enspired goalkeeping, the longer the competion
    goes on the more difficult it will be to score a hatful against them.
    So six goals might not look to bad.
    
    
    Why shouldn't the commentators refer to the 1966 World Cup when certain
    similarities occur....This is a World Cup campaign and we did actually
    WIN IT  in 1966.......And Bobby Moore was the Captain of the side...
    Geoff Hurst had a  goal controversial allowed then went on to score
    a hat trick and is the only player EVER to do this in the final..
    Sounds good every time I'm made aware of it.....
               
    Neil....
    
    
    
    

		P  W  D  L  F  A  Pts
Norway		4  3  1  0 15  2   7
England		3  2  1  0 11  1   5
Netherlands	3  1  1  1  6  5   3
Poland		2  1  1  0  3  2   3
Turkey		4  1  0  3  5  9   2
San Marino	4  0  0  4  1 22   0

g

    
    	I agree with Neil Cossie too - but I know what you mean Graham -
    I'm exhasted after getting through the first 7-line sentence without
    breathing.
    
    C

    
     Cliff, you think reading them are hard work you should try writing
     them......
    
     Neil...
    

    
    I was disappointed it was only six, especially as I had bet on seven
    and so had to buy the next round. 
    
    I agree Barnes wasn't very effective and neither was Gazza for some
    reason. I would have liked to have seen Sharpe on the substitutes bench
    to liven things up later on, and maybe even have tried Nigel Clough.
    
    Still six goals keeps us in the fray, as long as Poland don't get
    carried away over the next month. Watch them come up the table as they
    have two games against San Marino over the next month.
    
                                 Steve.
    

    
    If England had approached the game in the first half as they approached
    it at times in the second, more directly, then they would have tired
    out the San Marino's even more than they did. Hopefully that would have
    led to more goals.
    
    Still the real tests start coming up now, after the Turkey game, and
    England are there with one of the better goal differences. Now they
    need to collect the all important points as well. Then if it comes to
    the last game, England have the luxury of playing San Marino while the
    others have to scrap it out.
    
    			Steve.
    

    I was only disappointed that England didn't score at halftime - after
    all that's what the papers and everyone else predicted .......
    
    There was a program on C4 a few months ago that discussed the WC in
    Sweden - I may have mentioned it elsewhere.   Most of the fans were
    having a jolly good old time - win, lose or draw - it was life.
    All except the England fans - who were whining and complaining
    about everything and anything.   The last 20 or so notes confirm
    this.   Look on the bright side of life ?? - not likely ..
    
    Ray

    
    	Moaning about the world cup in Sweden?  Well I was for one - paid
    all that money - where were Brazil - nowhere,  Argentina?  Didn't
    bother coming.  As if that wasn't enough there were no emerging nations
    to knock Scotland out.   And as if that wasn't enough - couldn't afford
    the lager.
    	I'm not going to see the world cup in Sweden again,
    
    Cliff
    
                                                          

    I don't think the BOOING of Barnes did any good for the rest of the
    players but then again they must be getting used to it, because over
    the last couple of years they are the MOST BOO'd TEAM and thats from
    their own supporters. As far as Barnes earning his wages, don't all
    English Players get paid the same ?? GASCOIGNE wasn't much use either
    but I suppose he is the darling of England at present but his day will
    come when those so called Supporters will BOO him as well. One thing
    the players won't have to worry about, is being BOO'd in June '94 .))
    
    

    Ray
    
    You'd moan too if you spent that much money to watch that crowd of
    donkeys.
    
    Patrick.

    
    
         I can see England scoring more than 6 Goals AWAY from home against
         San Marino. Simply because they won't feel the presure and
         expectation's from a crowd of supporters that can't understand
         that they can't win EVERY game easily.
    
    
         NICK.
    
    

    Before the game I thought if we got six then that would be quite a good
    result and would more than likely be enough for our goal difference.But
    after watching the game and realising just how bad San Marino were and
    finding out (courtesy of Mr Motson) that San Marino only has a
    population of 25,000 I fear this will infact not be good enough.I mean
    come on there were 51,000 people at Wembley and if you chose carefully
    you probably could have picked a team from that lot that would have
    given San Marino a good game,if not beating them.There are teams in
    our group that will quite rightly get into doulbe figures against this
    lot,Norway have already done it,others will follow.
    
    I fear this group will end up being very tight,especially in veiw of
    Norways good start and Hollands slow start,you can almost guarantee
    that Holland will pick up quite a few points in their games to come as
    there side had too many quality players not to be in contention at the
    end.
    
    On the Barnes question I've been(as well as many others)saying for over
    two years now,why the hell is he still inculded in the squad,how many
    chances does this man need,does he need to beat Englands all time
    appearence record before he has a good game,it certainly seems that
    way.Also ponder this Tony Adams looked more dangerous going forward
    than Barnes on Wednesday and he's hardly what you would call a creative
    player.
    
    Sorry to have a whinge and moan,I also hate it when everyone in this
    country expects England to have a sparling game every time,but I just
    fear that due to this result/performance we may not qualify,and I've
    got mr heart set on going to America to watch England.
    
    Jason...The Omnipotent one.

    Exciting game with two attacking teams and one terrible referee. The
    Dutch started furiously and scored 1-0 after 4 minutes. The Turks
    didn't defend but took over the initiative. With a (doubtfull) penalty
    they equalized. One minute later 2-1 by Witsge ( doubtfull too).
    The game was open untill Witschge scored 3-1 in the second half.
    

    San Marino 0 - Turkey 0 

    San Marino played last night - anyone know the score.
    
    Any other results appreciated as once again i missed World Service.
    
    regards,
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    Holland 6	SM 0
    
    Paul 

	At what time GMT does the Turkey-England game kick off in Izmir please?

	Thanks,
		Ian.

    3pm GMT
    
    i.e. 4pm BST

	re .255

	Thanks. Looks like I'll make use of the flexible working hours, get in
	ridiculously early and get down to a Sky pub for 4.

	Ian.

    
    Great pictures in the Sun of Gazza and Ian Wright messing about in the
    mud at Englands training ground in Turkey. Not only is he the greatest 
    player in the world but the greatest character in the game, and with Gazza
    in this mood expect another world class performance from the genius,after
    his below performance against San Marino.
    
    It's great to see even with all the pressure he's under to succeed or
    by some people fail, he hasn't lost his sense of humour.
    
    My prediction for tomorrow nights game is  Turkey 0  England 3....
    
    Neil....
    
     

    
    The England team to play Turkey tomorrow is:
    
    Woods
    Dixon
    Sinton
    Palmer
    Adams
    Walker
    Gascoigne
    Platt
    Wright
    Ferdinand
    Ince
    
    If Ferdinand doesnt make it Barnes will play. He is on the bench along
    with Sharpe, I cant remeber who the other subs are apart from Seaman.
    
    Dave...
    
    

    
    
    re .257
    
          Neil, I'm beginning to think you're after a job as the FATMANS pr
     agent. Either that or you've developed a nasty schoolboy crush for the
     over-rated, over-weighted one.
    
          The messing around at training that has you in such ecstasy
     happens every week at football clubs all over the country. The media
     has made such an issue of it only because they have nothing else
     worthwhile to comment about.
    
    	  Under-pressure, give me a break. If I was earning the sort of
     money he is, I would still have a sense of humor. If he has yet
     another bad game, I'm sure he'll still be laughing all the way to 
     the bank.
    
         My prediction (hope, wish, prayer) for tomorrow night
    
                Turkey 1 Engerland 0
    
  
         and a stinker from FATBOY

    
    One thing Gazza's NOT is overrated, and lets face it every country
    would love to have a Gazza in there side. Except Scotland of course who
    are more interested in finding poofters to fill there frilly pink
    shirts. The man is the most talented footballer in the world with a great
    sense of humour, which is very rare in the game at the moment.
    
    As for your other comments, a little bit of Scottish jealousy I think.
    
    Prediction   Turkey 0   ENGLAND 3 
                            Gazza 3
    
    Neil....  
                    

 >  The man is the most talented footballer in the world with a great
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^      
 >  sense of humour, which is very rare in the game at the moment.
             ^^^^^^

I think this should read...
   
    The man is the most talented clown in the world with a great
                                 ^^^^^ 
    sense of how to play football, which is very rare in the game at the 
    moment.  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Eduard  :-) :-) ;-)

who loved to do diving headers, when the ground was soaked and muddy ;-) 

    
    re:1
         Been smoking something dodgy have we...
    
     Neil.

    
       Re last.
       
         I'm pretty sure I am speaking for the whole of the Scottish nation
       here when I wish England the best of British in their game against 
       the vastly underrated Turkish squad. 
        I also hope that extremely nice person Gazza can add a few goals
      to his tally, as he truly is the original English gent, has a super
      sense of humor and an ambassador to the game of soccer.
    
      I hope you understand that not all us Scottish folks aren't biased, 
      jelous Union hating poofters.
    
                    Daphne.
          

	RE. .262

	Calm down Neil, it was only a joke! ;-)

	In fact, I quite like his sense of humour and think he is
	a very good football player.
	"The most talented player in the world" is your opinion,
	which I accept, but don't share.

	Eduard 

    
    	It'll be 
    
    	Turkey 0 England 0
    
    	Another bore draw.
    
    	Andy.

    
    Re-1
    
    The old fence sitters back....
    
    
    England will win, who cares if its 1-0 or 10-0, two points in the bag,
    thats all the matters.
    
    Dave...

    
    England will win 1-0 with Tony Adams getting the goal from a
    corner midway through the second half...
    
    Remember where you heard it first!!!!!

    England 4 Turkey 1 
    
    You heard it from me first.....
    
    GrEg/..

    
    Ferdinand is definatly OUT, so it looks like Mr Blobby gets another
    chance.
    
    Dave...

    
    	Dave, for how long have I been a "fence sitter" ? 8-)
    
    	Those that actually know me would suggest otherwise.....
    
    	Andy.

    Latest -
    
    Turkey 0	England 1
    		
    		Platt 6"
    
    Paul

    England are 1-0 up after only a few minutes
    
    David Platt

    2-0 
    Gascoine on half time

    The England crowd, players, FA officials and commentators are all being
    pelted with stones, coins etc. Also the Turkish players are kicking
    lumps out of the England players. However, the Turks have had to bring
    on their sub g'keeper.
    
    England sub - Clough for Dixon who was getting well clattered on a
    regular basis, Ince dropping back to right back.
    
    Paul

    
    Last time Ireland played turkey, the Irish supporters recieved
    the same treatment. Hope FIFA take stern action against the Turks
    for this. This type of behaviour makes me almost want to see
    England win. ;')

    
    Final Score:
    
    Turkey   0			England    2
    				Platt 6'
    				Gasgoine 48'
    
    				England subs were used as Dixon replaced by
    				Clough, and Wright replaced by Sharpe, both
    				injured !!!!
	Mac

    
    
     Well done Engerland on a marvellous exhibition of football against
    world-class opposition in hostile Turkey. Goals from the great double
    act of Platt and Pratt saw them pick up another 2 points in their
    world cup campaign. We should award all the players and back-room
    team with the Victoria Cross following todays game. Simply spiffing
    show from the chaps.
    
     
    
    
     ps Pass the sick bag.
    
     pps  Neil, following the title to your note .260, I think your just
    the chappie required to fill one of those frilly pink shirts. Maybe
    your just a tad jealous that you couldn't join them in the showers
    after the game. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink etc.

    
    Great win for England, Tony Adams made some brilliant challenges
    in the box to stop the Turks from scoring, also Paul Ince had a 
    great game. Platt put England in front from a Barnes free-kick
    on six minutes, Gazza headed the second in first half injury
    time. The Turks never really looked like scoring but did their
    best to get a penalty when in the area.
    
    Andy..B

    
    Good solid performance from England. Adams and Walker played well
    together and despite the fact the Turks had alot of posession and
    played some good Football at times, never looked like scoring.
    
    Another two points from a potentially difficult game in difficult
    conditions. We are second in the group on goal difference, and when we
    beat Holland later this month, we will go 2 points clear of the Dutch
    with a game in hand.
    
    Re.277
    
    As usual when England win, a few jealuos McNoters come in here and
    start whinging about this and that. Yor right Turkey arent world class,
    they are probably on a par with Scotland as one of the worlds weaker
    footballing nations, never mind lads...... maybe you can organise a
    tournement next June for the likes of Turkey, San Marino and Scotland, 
    while the rest of us will be in the USA.
    
    Dave...

    
     Dave,
           At least we 'jealous Mcnoters' can admit our team are Shite!! 

    
    Good win for England.
    
    I hope the UEFA observer wasn't blind and deaf this time and maybe the
    Turks may get punished for pelting the players,fans and officials with
    coins.
    
    Gary.

    
    A good win in difficult conditions.
    
    Just one thing: Why does Taylor insist on using that Planet Barnes. The
    man just cannot play for his country. Should of subbed him sooner and
    brought someone (ANYONE!) else on. Let's face facts, he's no bloody
    good. Apart from that, we played well, lets hope someone does something
    about those fouling Turks, they could have done even more damage.
    
    GrEg...

Barnes may not be the talent we hoped he'd be but did you see the game 
yesterday? Who made Platt's goal? Who set him up for a second in the second 
half (he blasted it wide)? We haven't got that many players who can pass a 
ball that accurately . . 

grahame

    
    re-1
    
    I agree, Barnes did ok yestarday.
    
    Dave...
    

    Can anyone post the table and the next lot of fixtures ? I'm sure it's
    lurking in the back of some paper.
    
    Cheers,
    Andy

    GROUP 2
       
                  P     W     D     L      F     A      PTS
    
    Norway        4     3     1     0      15    2       7
    England       4     3     1     0      13    1       7
    Holland       5     3     1     1      15    6       7
    Poland        2     1     1     0       3    2       3
    Turkey        7     1     1     5       6    14      3
    San Marino    6     0     1     5       1    28      1
    
    
    
    * England V Holland *    

    
    What subs did England use yesterday?????
    
    jm

    
    Clough (for Dixon) and Sharpe (for Wright?).
    
    Tim

    
    Sorry to say this to those who thought it was enjoyable, but you must
    have been watching a different game. England were rubbish. There was no 
    first time control of the ball on over 80% of requirements. They had no
    idea (including Gazza) of how to hold the ball up (as a supposed World
    class team should do !!??!!) and the only plus sign was the fact that
    they took what few chances were put their way. This might well be an
    advantage at the the end of April as I can't see the Dutch being as
    generous as Turkey i.e. on last night's showing they might be lucky to
    get one shot in against Holland. 
    	Some may have complained with the pitch...anybody see the Brazilian
    football pitches these days and the standard that's played on them. Let's
    face it, the pitch WAS the problem with England. It just goes to show 
    where the English game needs coaching. It's quite amazing that with the
    amount of time the ball is spent in the air in the English league that
    players cannot control/kill the ball first time. The amateurs from HSC
    Berlin (who incidentally got to the final of the German Cup) had more
    inclination of what to do with the ball last night than England.
    
    	I may sound annoyed...I just can't believe how a team can change so
    rapidly from one that played against Turkey 5 months ago and today.
    
    	Somebody please enlighten me....I suspect it may have something to
    do with the 'so called 'virtual' 3 hour jet-lag of flying to Turkey'
    
    Dissappointed.....
    
    Dezzz...  

    
    According to the Arsenal notes conference it would appear that Ian
    Wright has broken his toe. This means he will miss the Holland game on
    Wednesday.
    
    I suppose this means "Isotonic Gut" Barnes will take his place !!!
    
    				Steve.
    

    
    Some reports are saying Wright would have only made the subs bench
    anyway, with Taylor prefering Platt and Ferdinand in attack.
    
    Merson could come in for Platt in midfield, he's in good form. Barnes 
    should'nt be playing at all, Lee Sharpe should be in the team in front 
    of Barnes. 
    
    Or maybe Teddy Sheringham could get his big chance.....
    
    Dave...

What time is this match on at and whats the TV coverage like?

    
    	err...
    
    	8pm? It'll be taped and played on Sportsnight, at 10pm I expect...
    
    	Live on R5 though...
    
    	Andy.

    
    What is happening with England's left back position. With both Dorigo
    and Pearce injured is Taylor intending to use Sinton ? Is Beresford
    from Newcastle selected or is he going to use Keown out of position ?
    Looks like a dodgy area in England's team to me, especially with Gullit 
    wandering around there.
    
    I presume the game is live on Sky Sports on Wednesday ?
    
    			Steve.
    
    
    
    

>>    I presume the game is live on Sky Sports on Wednesday ?
    
 Yep

    
    	If Stuart Pearce can't play,  the obvious choice has to be Julian
    Dicks.   Good crosser of the ball,  whacks the free-kicks,  and if
    anyone ever deserved the nick-name psycho Julian is a must.
    
    	Cliff

    Re .296
    
    ....but I think England will need 11 players for the whole 90
    minutes....
    
    Rob

    
    I'm sure all Irish football fans will support our close friends and
    near neighbours from across the water in Wembley tomorrow night.  With
    the many cultural similarities and the great friendships forged during
    our recent World Cup and European championship meetings we'll have our
    fingers crossed for our close friends.
    
    
    
    So Come on Holland.  
    
    Gary. 

    Yes Gary,
    
    Nice to see you're coming round a bit!!!
    
    Paul

Anyone care to speculate? As of this morning England have a full squad including
Nigel Winterburn. Is Wright available?


Should be a good  match!

    
    Re-2
    
    Gary..
    
    The feelings mutual...
    
    Come on You Danes...and come to think of it lets hope that Portugal
    spank the Jocks.
    
    Dave...

         <<< Note 129.298 by GALVIA::SPAIN "There's always the U.S." >>>
                    -< Irish interest in the game tomorrow >-

    
>>    I'm sure all Irish football fans will support our close friends and
>>    near neighbours from across the water in Wembley tomorrow night.  With
>>    the many cultural similarities and the great friendships forged during
>>    our recent World Cup and European championship meetings we'll have our
>>    fingers crossed for our close friends.
    
      
    
>>    So Come on Holland.  
    
>>    Gary. 

Gary,

good on you, hope to see you in the States in 1994!!!!!!

T_

    England are no mugs, especially at home, so given that Gascoigne is fit
    my prediction is:
    
    England 1               Holland 1  
      Platt                   Bergkamp
    
    

    
    England Team for tonights game...
    
    Woods
    Dixon
    Keown
    Walker
    Adams
    Palmer
    Ince
    Gascoigne
    Barnes
    Ferdinand
    Platt
    
    
    I hope Holland play like there U21's did last night, they were awfull.
    (England won 3-0). 
    
    This will be the hardest game in the group so far, but Holland have
    struggled in the group so far. I go for a 2-0 win for England.
    
    Dave...

    
    Not a bad side, still have my doubts about not playing a recognized
    left back, I still think we will over come a Holland side who are
    marginly better than Turkey at the moment.. 
    
    England 2  Holland 0
                   
     Neil..

    >I still think we will over come a Holland side who are
    >marginly better than Turkey at the moment.. 
    
    	So about the same as us then! I'll go for bore-draw. And the same
    in Dublin.

    I'll go for a 2-1 win for England with the winner coming from 
    a Gascoine free kick in the last few moments, this to make up for the
    disalowed one against Holland in the last World Cup.
    
    -Dom

    
    Tonight will be a great moment for us English lads, pounding Holland
    and seeing the Jocks out of the world cup.. I dont know why they
    bother entering, probably so when they do actually get there they
    give us a good laugh by getting hammered by Costa Rica and other
    crap sides.
    
       England 1 Holland 0
    
       Adams..

    
    re. last
    
    Another wonderful witty reply from the skin headed one.......
    
    Still, not to rise to the bait this Scot will go for a narrow
    1-0 victory for Engerland. 
    
    Del.

    A boring draw : 0-0.....because they both go for this....
    
    John

    
    There is no way that this match will be a 0-0 draw, you must  be
    thinking of the Ireland v Denmark, cause when ever they play anyone
    half decent its always a 0-0 draw..

2:0 to England, with Les Ferdinand scoring both.

Expect to see Bergkamp play no part in the game, due to being either 
a) marked by the English defense
b) kicked in the head by Tony Adams

Mike

    
    
    Or dropped by Tony Adams you mean...

    re -1,-2
    Bergkamp is still from Ajax : No one can stop him then himself.....
    By shooting against the keeper or next the goal.....
    I don't think that anyone of the english defense is able of stopping
    him ! OK by foul play, very foul play......

    
    Bergkamp is an average Dutch league player and I'm afraid he will up
    against a tough quick English defence. I'm afraid he won't pose any
    problems your chance of getting a goal was gone when Van Basten was 
    ruled out through injury.
    
    Neil.
     

Bergkamp has no chance against our defense.

He'll be substituted before the end of the game, or I'll eat my hat. 8-)

Mike

    
    	And as for Gullit and Rijkard, they're just average players in
    average Italian league, and if Koeman was playing it wouldn't make any
    difference because he's just an average player in an average Spanish
    league. 
    
    	Hey this wind-up thing's easy! Thanks for the template!

Good innit..

de Wolf? pah. get a haircut you hippy.

Wouters? I'd rather play David Burrows

Who else have they got?

rep last few

What a shame if England gets beaten tonight by a bunch of average players
from Holland.

You know what, forget about the if 'cause you get beaten! :-)))))

I really don't know but how can you say you've got a good team if you're
best player ie Waddle isn't even in the squad.

I would like to thank mr. Taylor for putting Donkey Adams in the squad
never seen such a slow donkey in my life, the Dutch attackers will be past
him before he has waken up.

Good luck tonight chaps.

T_

re -.1

It was a shame this donkey kept the best player quite on April the 18th
wasn't it?

I think Winterburn is better bet than Keown for left back. It is going to
be a tough one if Rijikard, Gullit and Winter play their best. Anyway England
are not going to loose. 

    
    	re .316...start munching, Mike ;-)
    
    	England 2 Holland 1 at �time, Barnes & Platt for us, Bergkamp for
    	them.
    
    	Andy.

    
    Thanks!!! I was starting to get the idea we were losing!
    
    Keith.

    
    England 2  Holland 3
    
    Barnes     Bergkamp 3
    Platt
    
     SQF Jambo    

    So Bergkamp scores 3 - bet the authors of .315 and .316 will keep their
    heads down in the morning!!
       
    Regards,
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    <<< Note 129.325 by AIMTEC::WICKS_A "on the Streets of San Francisco" >>>
>                       -< Lots of hat eating tomorrow? >-
>
>    So Bergkamp scores 3 - bet the authors of .315 and .316 will keep their
>    heads down in the morning!!

	I guess the author of .324 was pulling someones legs... or I've
	seen an edited version of that game.
	
	What was shown in France ended 2 - 2 with Holland scoring on a
	(deserved) penalty with 3 minutes to go...
	
	And a round of humble pie for a couple of Englishmen...
	
	Short comment: great first half, but most of the second was a non
	event. I still fail to understand what Carlton PALMER and John 
	BARNES were supposed to do in the telly. The first one can't pass
	a ball to one of his team mates and the second got back sleeping
	after a great start (this only lasted 2 minutes).
	
	By the way, where was Gascoigne during the second half? I thought
	he must be your best player by the tune of certain notes in here! 

	Completely biased,					.Andre.

    
    What an absolutely disastrous result for England. I doubt that the
    country, never mind the team, will recover from this. The word I have
    is that they were lucky to score at all, and that both goals were
    offside deflections. 
    
    

    
     re last-
     
     If required, us 'jocks' will aid the recovery program..
     It seems the English lads just can't handle the big stage!
         
                         Concerned noter.              
                          

    
    It was either Confuscious or Nostradamis who once said,
    
    "A 2-2 draw at home is like losing 6-0 away from home"
    
    ....and I would have to agree.
    
    Archie
    

    
    Great performance, great game, England thoughly deserved a victory last
    night with there best performance under Graham Taylor. Contrary to what
    the last few notes have said(bitter Jocks) England can take heart from
    this performance. With a game in hand they will still qualify with who
    I'm not sure....Is this the last we'll see of Gullit in a Holland
    shirt ?. 
    
    Disapointed with a draw as the performance deserved a win, were
    still in there which is more than I can say for a certain team
    North of the border.
    
    I'll take back what I said about Berkamp, he looks the part and when
    Van-Basten is back they will prove a formidable partnership.
    
    Neil...                                             
    

    
    What a brilliant display of football, John Barnes scoring in the first
    minute from a free kick. That goal must John Barnes place in the side
    for the next two years. The Dutch had trouble containing the pure
    brilliance of the might Gazza so gave him a couple of elbows to see
    that he didn't return for the second half. The Dutch at the end of 
    the game looked as if they had given up until they got a penalty, which
    they scored to make it 2-2. Les Ferdinand had a penalty turned down
    when a Dutch defender had taken his legs away in the box.
    
    The night ended happy when the score of
    
                Portugal 5   Jocks 0
    
       hooray! hooray! hooray! hooray! hooray! hooray! hooray!
    
    Andy...B    

    
    Its dissapointing, its another game that we should have won at home. I
    hope these lost points wont cost us. Very good game, England deserved
    to win as they easily contained the Dutch apart from a moment of magic
    from Bergkamp. They didnt create anything in the second half, apart
    from the penalty. No arguements about that.
    
    Still we didnt lose, and are still in there. Norway looked very
    vunerable against Turkey in the first half. We can go there and win.
    
    Dave... 

Engalnd, fair play, fought well last night and were a little unlucky not to 
come away with a win.

Does anyone think that Walker should have been sent off for the penalty as the
letter of the law demands that his foul was of the profesional type - pulling
down the man with no one to beat except the goalie?

                                James.

    I am no fan of England's but I must say that last night's game showed
    them in a very good light. They were quite like Germany the way they
    moved the ball forward so directly. 
    
    All in all they can feel unlucky but surely with less than 5 minutes to
    go there's come a time to start hoofing the ball out of the park
    instead of passing it about?
    
    cheers,
    
    Paul

Do you want some salt with that hat, Mike?

I was not entirely serious when I was slagging the Dutch players yesterday, but
I am now.

What a dirty bunch of gits. England may not have the attacking flair of the Dutch
but at least we don't get up to the sort of disgraceful behaviour chaps like
Wouters, de Wolf, and the bloke that chopped Les Ferdinand down did last night.

From what I saw on Sportsnight we were unlucky to only draw, and at least two
of the Dutch defenders should have been sent off.

I am normally a man of my word, and I was more than happy to chow down on a 
tasty bowler but I shan't now because we were robbed and a draw was a crime of 
mammoth proportions. 

Holland a class team? My backside they are.

England and Norway for USA '94 and good riddance to Holland.

Bergkamp and Wotsisface the other striker were a bit flash though.

See, completely unbiased. 8-)

Mike

    
    	I don't know about Walker being sent off for the penalty incident,
    but what an absolutely STUPID thing to do! I saw Walker get played of
    the park by Papin recently, and with that incident he seems to be 
    seriously off-form.
    
    	I thought that .315 was a wind-up, were you serious about thinking
    Bergkamp was average? He's scored brilliant goals like that
    consistently in the last two years.
    
    	I only saw very brief highlighs on German telly last night, but
    England looked to be quite good for a change. I still think G Taylor is
    a waste of space though. 
    
    	Wouters elbow on Gasgoigne was terrible! Although to be fair to the 
    ref, it was only noticeable on the slow motion replay. A 4th official 
    with camera assistance would surely have red carded him.

    
    Des Walker should have been sent off really, but why didnt he just bring
    him down outside the box ???. He was going to bring him down anyway, so
    he should have just pulled him down and faced the concequences but
    outside the box.
    
    Wouters should also have been sent off, the ref obviousley saw
    something as he gave a free kick. Gascoigne was playing well, Wouters
    new exaclty what he was doing.
    
    The group is very tight now, and the pressure is on England, as we now
    face 4 away games and only Poland at home.
    
    Dave... 

Do FIFA do what the FA does as concerning trial by television. If so I think
Wauters should be s***ing himself. That challange on Gascoigne was the most
blatant of its kind I've seen, and he should be punished for it. He was lucky 
he didn't break Gazza's jaw.

A good game for England, Great start, but very disappointing to give away a 2
goal lead. Barnes Free kick was excellent, and the 2nd was well worked, with a
good strikers finish.

Bergkamp's goal oozed class, and it had to be said that Holland deserved the
goal. However, although I have no argument about the penalty (I think Walker was
very lucky to play 90 minutes), Holland didn't deserve the draw, on the balance
of play in the second half. 

Ferdinand should have booked himself a permanent place in the team on his
performance. Only by being fouled ( should have been a penalty ) and an
excellent last gasp tackle did the Dutch keep him from scoring.

Palmer was superb. No he can't pass. Yes he looks awkward on the ball. But he
was always in the thick of the action, causing problems for the Dutch.

I was disappointed with Merson, especially after his performance last week. He
seemed too intent on going for the glory than playing the easy ball.

Gullit & Rijkard were invisible for most of the game, which shows what a good
job the defense did at keeping them out.

It was the first game I've seen since getting Sky Sports, and I think
I'll stick to the radio commentry. What is Andy Gray on????

disappointing score from the Stadium of light though.

Other results in the group yesterday.

	Norway	3 - 1	Turkey
	Poland	1 - 0	San Marino

Al

	Very well summed up Al, especially the bit about Andy Gray.

		p1

    Mike, you like some dutch coffee with your hat ????? ;-)
    
    Great game, what an opening, what an end. You can discuss a lot of
    things that happened during the play but I think the overall result was
    a deserved result for both teams (though lucky, I must admit).
    It was a very sportive event, it didn't deserve any red or yellow cards
    at all. Also not in the end at the penalty. Normally referees give that
    card but it was absolutely not necessairy to give a card. And he didn't
    do that. In the beginning I thought it was going to be a big score for
    England. After that quick goal it didn't look good, I think our coach
    had a little bit to optimistic (=attacking) team in the field. After
    the gate was a bit more closed, the dutch could give some resistance.
    But playing their own football, thanks to the english this never
    occurred........Two brilliant moments were however enough to make even.
    I am looking forward to the homeplay !
    
    Talking about Wouters, didn't one of you mention before that Bergkamp
    and Gullit would be kicked out ?????? And now you've problems with that
    high jump from Wouters ?????? ;-)
    
    John               

I don't know. What is Dutch coffee like?

I am trying to be objective about the game. From a neutral standpoint I would 
have to say that England deserved two points, if not more.

No-one deserved a yellow card? Surely some mistake. Wouters should be banned 
forever for what was a deliberate attempt to take a player that was running rings
round the Dutch defence out of the game.

Bergkamp was okay I suppose, and Obermaas (sp? probably not even close) was very
fast, but Gullit and Rijkaard were never in it. One of the best bits of the game
was watching supposed donkey Carlton Palmer breeze past supposed football genius
Dennis Bergkamp.

We'll pan you in the return leg if we have Gazza.

Bad luck though. we'll send you a postcard from the USA.

Mike

    If panning Holland depends on wether this Gazza guy plays or not, then
    	you don't have a team.......
    
    Gerard
    
    p.s. I agree Wouters should have had a card for that, but let's be
         fair, Gazza isn't an angel either...

    
    	Not sure about Gazza running rings round anyone,  but he was badly
    missed in the second half.   Graham Taylor's decisions are usually very
    hard to fathom,  but the combination of Palmer, Ince, Barnes and Gazza
    worked very well,  a couple of ball-winners (Palmer came up with the
    ball from numerous challenges) and a couple of footballers. (I think
    Clough might have been a better replacement for Gazza?)
    
    	Agree with earlier comment re: Les Ferdinand - the team need his
    pace (and workrate) - he should keep his place.
    
    	Graham Taylor seems to be acquiring a sense of humour too -
    interviewed after the game on sportsnight
    
    Reporter:  "Would you say the first dutch goal was the turning point?"
    GT: "Well it didn't help"
    
    Cliff

    Why all the fuss about the injury to Gascoigne?
    
    If I recall correctly he was the guy who committed some atrocious fouls
    in the 1991 cup final before self inflicting.
    
    Part of his trade is physical presence and he seems to revel in it.
    
    The old saying, "don't give it if you can't take it" would seem
    applicable.
    
      Paul

    The "fuss" is about a deliberate elbow in the face that was thought to
    have broken someones cheek bone. Yes gazza did commit a couple of fouls
    in the Cup Final and would have been punished if the ref hadn't been a 
    total dork.
    However, Gazza is not known as deliberately dirty. For once I agree
    with Jimmy Hill that Wouters committed an act of "thuggery". In the
    Premier League, video evidence would have him banned for several games,
    I hope FIFA think about similar tactics.
    
    The Dutch looked to have a number of average and past their sell by
    date players. England looked a couple of players short of a very classy
    act. They need a better right back (Rob Jones?) and a real left back
    (Stuart Pearce), plus a wide player. Barnes did well but was still only
    around about 70% of the time. A fit John Salako, Lee Sharpe or Tony
    Daley would give a better balance. Shearer will also lead the line a
    bit better (although Ferdinand did well, he is not a prolific scorer)
    
    Personally, I would prefer Seaman or Martyn to Woods but there is
    little to choose. Woods is a bit weak in the "kick from a back pass"
    department.
    
    Still, good game, generally good performance and I don't think England
    have to worry overly much about going to Poland and Norway.
    
    Paul
    

    
    I saw the last 15 minutes on SKY and the highlights on BBC.  When Peter
    Van Vossen scored the penalty the whole pub erupted.  I never knew
    there were so many Dutchmen in Galway.  :-)
    
    From what I saw England deserved to win but they threw it away.  They
    have an uphill battle now to qualify.  England have only beaten Turkey
    and San Marino.  2 draws at home to Holland and Norway does not inspire
    confidence.  Group tables can be very deceptive.
    
    Gary.

    
        re .347...
    	
    	Big deal, Gary..I can't imagine many Englishmen give a bugger
    	how many NON-ENGLISH (as this is what it amounts to..) people
    	there were in a pub in Galway last night 8-(
    
    	They're all as bad as boned-headed English "supporters" who revel
    	in other Home Nations misery...I'm suprised - I thought that sort 
    	of crap was beneath you.
    
    	England played quite well. Holland deserved the draw for playing
    	for 90 minutes rather than 87. We missed Gazza in the second half,
    	nasty elbow from Wouters but if it was Adams it would "all be part
    	of the game". On balance we were well worth a point.
    
    	Nothing to worry about. If we put that side out on the park for
    	the remaining ties in this group we will qualify. Yes, I know that
    	means a reprieve for Barnes, but I admit it - he played well!
    
    	Ince was superb. Bergkamp was excellent - what a goal.
                                                            
    	Andy.

re -.1
>> We missed Gazza in the second half, nasty elbow from Wouters but if it was 
>> Adams it would "all be part of the game"

Andy,

	Even if it had been Jeremy Beadle, Wouters action against Gascoigne has
absolutely no place on the Football field, and FIFA should do something to stop
players thinking they can get away with it, even if the ref didn't see it.

Al

    
    	Al, I agree. I didn't condone what Wouters did.
    
    	However, I stand by what I said. We are very qucik to cry "foul"
    	if it's against us, but our own players have done similar things
    	and it's suddenly "a man's game", "accidental clash of heads", 
    	"tried to play the ball"...etc. Chose one of those.
    
    	If we really want trial by FIFA/TV/other, we'd better understand
    	the full implications.
    
    	Andy.
    	

    Re-1
    
    Andy..
    
    That is rubbish....When Terry Butcher head butted a player a couple of
    years ago playing for England he was slaughtered in the papers.
    
    Despite all the b*locks written in here, no player would have been
    defended for doing anything like Wouters did last night.
    
    Dave...
    
    
    

    Re 348
    
    As much as I hate to say it but I have to agree with Andy at the start
    of his mail.  As a moderator I feel Gary should show more responsability
    instead of trying to start more home nation arguments.  
    
    Well done Andy.
    
    Unfortunatly though your comments about Tony Adams was complete crap.  
    
    
    Thanks All
    
    Barry 

    
    Andy..
    
       Are you really as boring as you make out...

     
    
         Why do the Irish/Foreigners slag off English football when most of
    them support English teams . No wonder teams like Cork City & Derry
    City will never win anything good . They don't get the support because
    the whole of the bloody country wants to come over and watch the likes
    of Leeds & Everton play.  
    
         If your going to slag off the England team then why bother coming
    other here at all to watch domestic matches , after all Chelsea , Leeds
    and Everton fans etc should show a bit of loyalty.  
    
    
       
                
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
                   Warbutong
    
    
    
    
    

             
    	Yup.
    
    	Andy, are you really....no, better not ask.
    
    	Andy�

Re: -2

I think the reason that all these people slag off the English national side
but still support English league teams is the simple fact that their own 
players are crap. The Republic only started winning when Big Jack took over and
scrounged his team from the castoffs of the English league. Similarly how many 
of the Welsh team actually play in the Welsh league? Answer: none.

The only exception to this is Scotland, and we don't need to say anything about
the state of their national team...

This is not to say that Irish players or Welsh players are crap themselves, just
that all the ones who are even half decent play in the English league because
the domestic leagues are rubbish. 

Be honest. Could you bear to support Inter Cardiff when you have real quality
football just down the road in the English league?

I think recent results have shown that of the home countries only England can
seriously be considered a decent footballing nation, while Scotland, Wales, and
Northern Ireland are forever doomed to languish among the Maltas and San Marinos
of the world. Never mind lads. We won't mind you all flocking to our cause in 
94. 8-)

Note that I exclude the Republic from the last generalisation, although I am
confident that if they didn't get all their players from the English league via
dubious ancestral connections with Ireland, they too would be an easy 2 points.

No offence intended. Just my humble opinion. 8-)

Mike

Oops sorry. That should be "their own leagues are crap."
                                      -------

many apologies.

Mike

    Mike,
    
    What are you trying to say - Inter Cardiff knocked Cardiff City out of
    the Welsh Cup and it looks as if Cardiff City might win the English
    3rd Division.
    
    regards,
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    
    There is a vast gulf in standards between the English league and the
    leagues here in Ireland or Wales.  I don't think anyone would dispute
    the fact.  Most people here support English football teams.  We get
    British television and there is huge interest in the English league.  
    
    This should logically translate into support for the English national
    team.  Certainly virtually everyone here would support Scotland or
    Wales against continental opposition.
    
    There is a minority of people in this country who hate everything
    English but they also hate football because it is seen as an English
    game.  Most Irish fans dislike the English national team because of the
    incredible arrogance of sections of the media - Jimmy Hill,John Motson
    et al.  Other examples of this can be found in this conference.  If you
    don't know what I mean ask some of the Rangers fans.  It can get a bit
    tiresome listening to how wonderful England are.
    
    England played very well last night.  Judging from the highlights they
    should have won the game.  It should have been Taylor's finest hour and
    yet it has turned out to be a very bad result which leaves
    qualification in doubt.Peter Van Vossen has saved us hours of talk
    about how they're going to win the world cup.
    
    I know the goal must have been a sickening blow to the many decent
    English fans.  i know how they feel and I've felt the same way myself
    in the past.  But at the arrogant neanderthal minority all i can do is
    laugh.
    
    BTW Holland are one of my favourite International sides anyway.  I do
    hope they qualify and I generally want them to win even when they don't
    play England.  Most Irish fans would have similar sympathies for the
    Dutch and this made the equaliser all the sweeter.
    
    Gary. 

 
    Well said Gary, I guess most football fans north of the border would echo
   most of what you have said.

    Personally, I thought England played very well last night and deserved to
   win the game, but I'm afraid I cannot wish them good luck in their future
   matches. However, I will say I'm glad Scotland don't have to meet them in
   the near future!!!

     Danny.

    Mike,
    
    I watched the game in my local last night with a SPanish
    colleague...and guess who we were secretly cheering for!
    
    Frankly, I was amazed at the quality of England's performance.  However
    I was even more amazed to see one of the audience jump in delight at
    the first Dutch goal...turns out he was a Scot...and guess
    what...Scotland's score came across the screen in sharp bursts soon
    after.  He who laughs last...no harm in a bit of fun at the end of the
    day.
    
    On the subject of ancestry, take a look at the England team at least
    half of whom could hardly be described as Saxons!  It's getting tiring
    listening to the moans about the Irish team's ancestry...maybe it's
    because they are anything but an easy two points.  If their parents are
    Irish so are they no matter where they live...simple as that.
    
    By the way, I thought England deserved to win last night.  
    
    Shane
     
    
     
    
    
    
    

    Last night I saw the foul on Gazza on SKY NEWS and, as a neutral
    observer in this case ;-), I must say that it was an awful attack
    and Wouters certainly deserves a punishment. 
    Before I saw it on telly, I thought it was one of those clashes as
    in the Euro Championship match between Germany and Scotland, but
    Wouters knocked him deliberately by taking a swing before hitting
    him.
    Apparently, Gazza has broken his cheekbone and will quite likely
    miss the next two qualification matches. I guess had the blow been
    further down, he would have broken a few ribs instead. :-(
    Perhaps it would be a good idea to ban Wouters for the same amount
    of matches as Gazza is missing.
    
    Just my opinion,
    
    Eduard

    
    I caught a bit on the news last night that Gazza needs an operation
    on his cheek, can anyone confirm this ?. More importantly will he miss 
    any of the qualifiers coming up..
    
    Re: last few.
    This is getting really boring, frankly I and many others don't care
    what you think, regarding the commentators many of us find them
    irriating, but most of them are English WHY shouldn't they shout for 
    there Country. I seem to remember a certain Jack Charlton creaming his
    pants over John Seridan in a recent televised game, quite frankly he was
    embarrasing but the only reason he done it was because he played for
    the Republic. What are you saying that we should have neutral
    commentators, some how I don't think so, imagine a Scottish commentator
    we would have to have subtitles, it's bad enough watching Taggert....
    
    
    Neil...
     
     
     

    
    re. -1
    
    Doesn't seem to be a problem for your players. They seem to be able to
    understand :
    
    
    	Alex Ferguson, Kenny Dalglish, George Graham etc....
    
    			:^)...
    
    

    
    Three observations:
    
    1) Before I started following football notes, I could sometimes cheer
    for England. Now I want them to lose almost as badly as Denmark. What do
    you think is the reason,::BAREFIELDA, ::COSSYEN et al?
    
    2) Commentators on national TV are biased towards the national team. In
    most countries this is no problem because an overwhelming majority of
    the viewers of national TV are biased towards the national team too. In
    the UK however, the national TV covers the area of 4-5 national teams,
    which causes most of the debate exemplified lately (and we've seen it
    many times before, do you remember the 'Great Walt Gallacher Crusade'
    in '90). There is only one solution to the situation: allow only ONE
    national team per national TV coverage area.
    
    3) Poor Wouters. I hope he didn't hurt his elbow.

    
    Re: 1 
    
    They are English Jocks, you can also add to that list Dennis Law,
    Alan Hansen Andy Gray and Ian St John who all say "we" when refering to
    England... It's quite funny listening to them...
    
    Neil...
     

    
    
    What it comes down to is this. Some of the Irish think they are better
    than England because they beat us 5 years ago in Stuttgart. Since then
    we have been in their group in both major competitions and finished
    above them both times and gone further than them in both competions,
    but they still think they are better than us. We can except they are a
    very hard team to beat, ask any of the Countries that are in their
    group, they dont lose very often, but then again they dont win that
    often either against good teams.
    Then we get the same old rubbish about the media being bised towards
    England, very strange that, English people being biased towards the
    English....whatever next.
    As for the Scottish, well they come out with comments like "atleast we
    can accept we are crap"...very true, but the reason we dont is because we 
    like it or not we arent. "crap" teams get beat by Costa Rica and
    thrashed by Portugal.
    
    Who cares if you dont like England, keep on not liking England, our
    team is gettiung better and better, and your bitterness is going to get
    worse and worse.
    
    Dave...

    Bearing in mind the fact that all of our next games are abroad to tough
    opposition, what are the chances of England qualifying for USA. 
    Comments from Scots, Irish, anyone welcome - after all we are all
    entitled to an oppinion.
    
    Matt.

>>    Re: 1 
    
>>    They are English Jocks, you can also add to that list Dennis Law,
>>    Alan Hansen Andy Gray and Ian St John who all say "we" when refering to
>>    England... It's quite funny listening to them...
    
>>    Neil...
 

They are not "English Jocks", they are British. Like the majority of BRITISH
people, though there are probably many that wouldn't admit it, they actually
support all the teams in the British Isles. Probably the only time they don't
want England to win is when they are playing Scotland.

Al

    
    Its not worth saying it going to be easy, because it isnt. We now need
    3 points from the next two games, 4 would be brilliant but very
    difficult. We are still in a good position despite the draw. Holland
    have played a game more, have already lost in Norway and drawn at home
    to Poland. 
    
    We've made it difficult for ourselves now, we should have won all our
    games, but we didnt, If we pick up 3 points in Poland and Norway,
    preferably beating Norway, we can still qualify. I'm not panicking...YET.
    
    Dave...

    
    
    Chaps...chaps...chaps....
    
    All this "we hate you 'cause you hate us" crap is getting a bit
    tiresome. Can we try and get back to some resonably, intelligent 
    noting. I enjoy most of the banter but some of the recent notes
    have been nothing more than childish.
    
    Ok....now I'm off my soapbox I have to say that I think England,
    even though 3 of their last 4 games are away, have an excellent
    chance of going to the USA. If they can perform to the same standard
    as Wednesday night the games in Norway and Poland should yield at least
    3pts from 4. As a scot thats as unbiased as I can get. 
    
    Del.
     

    
    Here's how I see it.
    
    Despite only dropping 1 point (away to Holland) I still don't think
    Poland will qualify.
    
    I think 15 points are needed to qualify.
    
    England should beat San Marino away and Poland at home.  They need 2
    points from the trips to Poland and Norway - anything better and you
    can book your tickets.  They may still need a draw in Holland.  That
    will become clearer in the Autumn.
    
    I think Holland will beat Norway.  They will probably need to beat
    England as well and draw in Poland.
    
    Norway should draw with England,lose in Norway and will have more
    problems beating Poland than the other 2 nations.
    
    Holland have lost in Norway and drawn at home to Poland.  They need
    those points back.  England have drawn at home to Norway and Holland. 
    Norway have done everything that has been asked of them so far by
    beating the Dutch and drawing at Wembley.  Norway are currently in the
    strongest position but their games v England and Holland in June will
    tell a lot.
    
    It's at least 2 from 3, possibly 2 from 4.  I think it's going to be
    very tight.  It may come down to goal difference.
    
    Gary.

    Guys,
    
    As an Irishman, I have to admit we were fortunate to scrape a draw
    against the Danes...whoops wrong note, so easy to get confused.
    
    As regards England V Holland. I like the Dutch. They are a style team.
    Bergkamp's goal was beautiful. But so was Barnes' goal. And Finally
    even the Dutch were copious in their compliments of Carlton Palmer, a
    player who's virtues I have been lauding for many years.
    
    England were unlucky to only draw. They need a bit more guile in
    defence to halt the likes of Obermaas and Bergkamp. They need a Baresi
    type figure. From midfield up they played fine. I don't see Poland
    causing them difficulty. They never have in the (recent) past, and Jan
    Tomaschevski is long gone. Norway and Holland in their home stadia are
    going to be MUCH more daunting, especially with a fit Van Baesten
    playing.
    
    It's going to be very tight. Also, IMHO, Walker should have walked for
    the penalty. Obermaas was clear in on goal. The rule is stupid, but
    consistency is needed.
    
    Can someone post the table, and the fixture list? I know England play
    away in Poland and Norway at the end of May and start of June. When is
    the game in Holland. 
    
    Good luck to England, the WC finals wouldnt be the same without them.
    After all, we'd miss listening to Jimmy Hill and The Venerable Terry,
    wouldnt we...? And we'd miss the great Carlton slagging Jimmy Hill etc
    for not backing the team. That was a great bit of telly, that was..8^)
    
    luv,
    
    Tiger

    
    re:.371. I couldn't agree more,
    
    Regarding the injury to Gazza it's not as serious as first thought,
    he will only be out of action for a least two weeks. So hopefully
    he will be fit for the two qualifiers at the end of the month.
    
    Looking at the table it's not going to be easy, we end up in this
    position everytime when we have to win the last game to qualify, which
    we always seem to manage to do. This time we have San Marino in the
    final fixture IF it goes to the last fixture I know which team I would
    rather be playing. To be honest I expect England to have secured a
    place to the finals by then..... 
    
    Neil.. 

    
    Children, children.....
    
    Apart from a few exceptions I wouldn't be suprised if the average 
    mental age of most football noters was less than 10.
    
    Your crap, he's crap etc is vocabulary that most kids of primary school
    age could better.
    
    JMHO
    
    Paul

    
    
    Don't talk crap Paul!   :^)
    
    
    Al (age 7).

    
    My daddies bigger than yours crapface
    
    Paul (age 42)

    
    Lets have a end to all this stupid nonsense, this topic is
    called "world cup group two".. 
    
    I dont see our great team have to much trouble brushing aside
    all the other teams in our group. England showed the other night
    that they are a world class side and any team will have to do 
    their best to beat them. 
    
    I cant understand why Des Walker didn't  kick that Dutch
    foward into row Z of the stand before he got into the box, O.K
    he would of been given the red card and missed a game but at
    least we would have won...
    
    Andy.B

    andy,
    
    hate to dosappoint you, old bean, bu this topic is called;
    	"World Cup Qualifying Group Two"
    
    By stating that its called "World Cup Group two" you are possibly in
    danger of assuming that England will, or have already, qualified for
    the Final Phase of the World Cup.
    
    Just thought I'd point it out, old fruit.
    
    Cheers,
    
    *Tiger*

    re last
    
Note 129.378              World Cup qualifying Group 2                378 of 378
PEKING::BAREFIELDA "JACK CHARLTON IS DESPICABLE"     15 lines  30-APR-1993 15:49
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    >>Lets have a end to all this stupid nonsense, this topic is
    >>called "world cup group two".. 
    
    Couldn't agree more.
    
    
    >>I cant understand why Des Walker didn't  kick that Dutch
    >>foward into row Z of the stand before he got into the box, O.K
    >>he would of been given the red card and missed a game but at
    >>least we would have won...
    
    >>Andy.B
    
    Errrr Andy.B  Can you go back and read the first line of your note and
    then ask yourself if this type of garbage/Chelsea tactics deserves to
    be called sense or nonsense........
    
    Just a thought...
    
    Kev...
    

     What would you prefer..
    
     A. England win 2-1 with Walker being sent off.
    
                       OR
    
     B. Just claiming 1 point.
    
     Foot in mouth, looks like you could definately get your foot in
     your mouth ... I bet!!!!

    
    
    re last
    
     Personally, I would prefer option B.
    
    By the way, what's all this talk about Gazza having a sore/broken
    cheekbone. I'm sure it's all a ploy by his marketing agent to drum
    up some sympathy. After all, you would need a sledgehammer to get
    through the excess fat before connecting with any of fatties bones.
    
     Danny.

    
    The jocks would give their right arm to have a player like Gazza...

    <<< Note 129.383 by PEKING::BAREFIELDA "JACK CHARLTON IS DESPICABLE" >>>

    
>>    The jocks would give their right arm to have a player like Gazza...

Andy,

didn't you gave your d*ck when Gazza started playing for England :-)

T_

    Just for the decent language in the coming notes :
    
    Wrong         Right 
    -----         -----       
    van Baesten = van Basten
    Obermaas    = Overmars ( love to hear how you pronounce that one !)
    Bergkamp    = Bergkamp
    Wouters     = Wouters ( thanks for the concern, his elbow is o.k.)
    
    Now don't let me see anyone of you make faults again in writing dutch
    names. With a little luck you don't have to write them in '94, US....

    re last one....
    
    Question;  How can "Wouters" be both wrong AND right??
    
    Answer;    When he commits a foul, but when other player is Gazza its
    		ok.....
    
    I notice it didnt stop Gazza talking on the "Gazzetta" on Channel 4....

    How long is Gazza out for ?
    
    Cheers

Gazza's hoping to make the Lazio game on 23 May - just in time for the 
England games

g

    What were the results of Norway-Turkey and Poland-San Marino which I
    understand were also played on April 28?
    
    Jacques

    they're hidden at the bottom of reply .339

    
    Result from 19-May-93
    
    San Marino 0 - 3 Poland.
    
    This puts Poland within a point of England and Holland, with a 1 game
    advantage over the former and a two game advantage over the latter.
    
    
    cheers,
    
    *Tiger*

    
    
    A very important time for England in the next 5 days, it could make or
    break the qualification for USA 94.
     
    First game on Saturday in Poland (Live ITV 19:15), we always seem to
    get Poland in our group and they have been quietly picking up points
    and are right in there at the moment. It looks like Teddy Sheringham
    will make his debut alongside David Platt in attack, as Les Ferdinand
    is struggling with a back injury. Ian Wright is fit, but according to
    the papers today, GT is going to give Sheringham the nod if Ferdinand
    doesnt make it. Tony Dorigo also returns after injury at left back so 
    the team will probably read:
    
    Woods
    Dixon
    Dorigo
    Adams
    Walker
    Palmer
    Ince
    Gascoigne
    Barnes
    Platt
    Sheringham
    
    On Wednesday England travel to Norway for the second game, Norway have
    been doing very well at home and really can book there place if they
    beat England. If they lose to England, then they have to travel to
    Holland a week later, facing the fact that if they lose to the Dutch,
    they are basically out after a good start.
    
    3 Points would be a good performance, 4 would be brilliant, but
    anything less and we are struggling and relying on other teams dropping
    points. With a home game with Poland and the away fixture in San Marino
    to come for England, two wins can almost certainly qualify us but I'll
    go for a win on Poland and a draw in Norway, leaving the group still
    wide open.
    
    Dave...

    
    Tomorrow see's the start of what is an important few days for England.
    Away games against Poland and Norway if the what the papers are saying
    is true then I expect 2 wins but I will settle for 1 win and draw, this
    time next week England could almost be on there way to the states..
    
    The game is on live tomorrow so, the whole Country can assess how good
    the currant team is compared to the side that finished the fourth best
    team in the world in the last Championship.  Personally, Taylor's got a
    good team spirit within the side so I' going to stick my neck out and go
    for two England victorys. This will leave us to get one more victory in
    our last remaining games. No problem....
    
    Poland 0 England 2
    Norway 1 England 3                  
    
    Neil..

    
    I'll go for a couple of 1-1 draws. Much depends on Gazza, as per usual.
    
    Tim

    
    	Me too, though the best chance ofa win will be in Poland and we
    	may get a shock in Norway!
    
    	Andy.

    I think England will get a draw in Poland and will then go on and beat
    Norway 3-1.  A lot depends Gascoigne.
    
    
    
    
    Gary

    Good Luck.
    
    It'll be no fun is the USA without you.... 
    
    8^)
    
    *Tiger*

    
    Tiger,
    
    remind us Ireland's brilliant performances in the 1992 European
    championship finals in Sweden...............
    
    Paul ;-)

    
    
    re last
    
    Almost as good as England's performances..
    
    Danny :-) :-)
    

    
    I go for 3 - 1 to Poland, and 1-0 to Norway.
    
    Archie
    

    
    Re.399
    
    And England's performance has striking similaraties to Ireland's
    performance in Italy, we drew all our games and then went out to the
    host nation by the odd goal.
    
    Dave...

    
    What was tonight's score?
    
    Archie
    

    According to the Swiss version of 'Ceefax' it was 1-1 with
    the Poles scoring first half and Wright scoring the equaliser
    in the 84th minute....
    
    England must really now win in Norway....
    
    _dom

    
    Ian Wright saved lucky England last night.
    
    Poland were strolling to victory and really should have had the points
    well rapped up before Wright equalised. Chris Woods had a string of
    fine saves and that, coupled with very poor finishing by the Polish
    centre Lesniak, kept England's hopes of qualification alive.
    
    England now really need to win in Norway. They'll go into that match
    without Paul Ince who was booked last night.
    
    Del.

    Thanks to good old UTV,I saw the game on saturday night. Poland should
    have been 3 up before Wright scored a brilliant goal. England deserved
    a goal due to the pressure they put the Poles under. But Really!!!
    Those misses in the first minute of the game and in the second half!!!
    What Can you say...honestly England were dead jammy to get that point.
    
    Wrights goal reminded me of Lineker's first ( I Think) against Poland
    in WC96 against Poland also. Fantastic opportunist shot.
    
    I would hate to be that Polish striker who missed those two sitters!!!
    The Poles were technically brilliant and regularly carved the Englsih
    midfield and defence wide open. It was a rough game, with some vicious
    tackling on both sides.
    
    Is the Norway game live on ITV also??? Hope so. Its great to give the
    thumbs down to SKY!!!
    
    *Tiger* 

    I heard the second half is on live on BBC.
    
    England will have to consider that a point gained as they could well
    have lost 3-0.
    
    Having said that Norway could feel a backlash on Wednesday and
    shouldn't be too complacent.
    
    Paul

    
    It may also mean that Norway will lift their game, knowing now that
    England are beatable.
    
    Norway to win 1-0
    
    Archie
    

    
    
    No doubt about it we were lucky. We didnt play well at all, and it has
    to go down as a point gained. Poland had two clear chances, the one in
    the first minute was a terrible miss, and Chris Woods made up for his
    error by making a good save after he decided to pass to the Polish
    foward from a back pass.
    
    I think its about time Des Walker got "rested". He needs to get his
    form back together again, he is making to many mistakes now.
    
    Great goal from Wright......lets hope thats the first of many for
    England, starting on Wednesday.
    
    We will need to play much better than that against Norway, lets face it
    we really need a win now. A draw is'nt the end of the world but it would
    mean us relying on other teams dropping points. 
    
    Dave... 

    I don't think a draw would be too bad. After all you haven't lost a
    game yet, you've put 6 past one team and it doesn't matter whether
    you come out first or second, does it?
    
    I think England will definitely qualify though possibly not as group
    winners. This is good because the World Cup wouldn't be the same
    without you :-) :-)and especially Jimmy Hill!!!
    
    Paul
    

    
    	A draw in Oslo will be Ok. Not brilliant, but not a disaster
    	either. A win will put us in the driving seat in this group.
    
    	How we got a point in Poland is still a mystery, as was the total
    	inability of the Swiss referee to adequately punish some awful
    	challenges.
    	
    	Wright's goal was superb. The pub went wild 8-)
    	
    	Barnes is a numpty and should be dropped forever. Walker has now
    	been "average" for half a season - according to Sampdoria and what
    	I've seen of him - and maybe it's time for a change. Pallister gets
    	my vote. Keep Bardsley and Dorrigo in. Shoot Palmer for being a
    	prat, and Ince for being a cretin and getting booked.
    
    	Team for Norway game:
    
    	Woods, Bardsley, Dorrigo, Batty, Pallister, Adams, Sharpe, Platt,
    	Ferdinand, Wright, Gascoigne.
    	
    	Andy.

    
    Andy..
    
    The problem with playing Pallister with Adams is the lack of pace, if
    we get with our two full backs to far up field, we might get exposed,
    although Adams looks pretty secure nowdays ( err I cant believe I said
    that), you need some pace. I would play Keown with Adams, he has some
    pace, and is also a good man marker.
    
    What about Teddy...?, he did ok and deserves another chance. I would
    agree about Barnes, time has surely run out now, lets see Lee Sharpe
    have a run, atleast he might get some crosses over to give Teddy
    Sheringham (if he plays) some chance. He wasnt given any service on
    Saturday.
    
    I hope all this about Taylor dropping Gascoigne is just a smokescreen..
    
    Dave...

    
    	Fair comment Dave. It simply came down to the fact that Wright
    	scored in 20 minutes and Sherringham didn't in 90, but he did
    	do enough to suggest that he can handle international football.
    	I'd have him on the bench with Clough.
    
    	I think Taylor will stick with Sherringham too, with Wright still
    	on the bench, but it's just the side that I'd play at the moment.
    
    	Andy.
             

    
    I didn't see the game (I wuz on holiday), but I read a few back that 
    Woods made a bad mistake. He seems to make silly mistakes a bit too
    often for my liking (I'm an Owls fan!). I think Seaman looks more
    secure, but not as flashy, so I'd play Seaman in goal.
    
    Al.

    Ref Woods
    
    My main criticism of him is that he has not adapted at all well to the
    back pass rule. In comparison to Seaman and Martyn he is very poor at
    kicking clear.
    
    Paul

The best thing about Saturday's fiasco was seeing Taylor in a strop at half time.
8-) 8-)

Surely he must understand Barnes = Crap. It's a simple equation, and one which 
the rest of the galaxy seems fairly at ease with.

I thought Bardsley was okay at attacking but he didn't appear to do a fat lot
in the way of actual defense. 

Des Walker also needs a rest but I don't think we have got anyone to take his 
place. Pallister is rubbish. Get Des back in English football and he'll be
back to his true form within months. He has just had a hard time getting used 
to lower quality continental football. 8-) (flying in the face of reality)

Hows about:

Woods, Adams, Walker, Dorigo, Bardsley, Palmer, Gascoigne, Platt, Sharpe, Wright,
Sherringham/Ferdinand

Mike

Re. 415
>Des Walker also needs a rest but I don't think we have got anyone to take his 
>place. Pallister is rubbish. Get Des back in English football and he'll be
>back to his true form within months. He has just had a hard time getting used 
>to lower quality continental football. 8-) (flying in the face of reality)


Mike,
 Pallister was ever-present in the United side this season in total of 50
games United conceeded 35 goals..I wouldn't call that rubbish..and I don't
mind him not  being in the England team..

Tony

    Enforced changes could actually work in Graham Taylor's changes as they
    did in the past.  I think England are strongest upfront where they have
    several class strikers/attacking midfielders.  Wright, Ferdinand, or 
    Sheringham with Sharpe on  the left and Platt in midfield would probably 
    strengthen the side.  Mark Hateley isn't even in the squad.
    
    Great goal from "shoot on sight" Ian Wright.  
    
    Shane

    assuming that this is in one of the English newspapers...
    
    how many of the hundreds of Norwegians signed by English clubs this
    past season are in the Norwegian team for tomorrow's game.
                  
    Regards,
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    
    I think the fans are over reacting.  A draw is Poland was a very good
    result.  I can't see Norway or Holland having it easy over there.  I
    think they've lost one home World Cup match..ever.
    
    A draw in Norway would also be a very good result.
    
    If England draw in Norway,win v Poland and San Marino and draw with
    Holland they can only fail on goal difference and that's with just
    about every result going against them.
    
    A win in Norway would make things pretty easy.  A defeat would really
    put the cat among the pigeons.  I think it'll be a draw and England will
    qualify.
    
    Gary.

    
    	Exactly, Gary.....this obsession with expecting England to win
    	every game home and away is ridiculous. We haven't been beaten
    	yet. We'll be there provided it stays that way.
    
    	Andy.
    
    
             

    What about giving Clough a chance. When he came on the last time he put
    more passes together than the whole team did in the game. He may not 
    stand out as a Brill player but his incisive passes could swing a game.
    
    England to draw and hopefully qualify - GOOD LUCK TO BOTH TEAMS
    
    Stephen
    

    
    I know Sky Sports coverage of the game starts at 18.00 but is the game
    being shown live on any other channels and when is the kick off ?
    
    Taylor is apparently considering loads of options for tonights game. Is
    it:
    
    		Dixon or Bardsley ?
    		Walker or Keown or Pallister ?
    		Gascoigne or Clough ?
    		Barnes or Sharpe ?
    		To replace Ince is it to be Batty or Platt moved back to
    								midfield ?
    		Are Sheringham and Platt going to stay as the front two
    		or are Ferdinand or Wright going to get a game ?
    
    In my opinion tonight is not the time to make sweeping changes. My 
    team would be:
    
    Woods, Dixon, Dorigo, Walker, Adams, Palmer, Platt, Gascoigne (replaced 
    later by Clough), Ferdinand, Wright, Barnes.
    
    There is the USA tournament coming up to give Keown, Clough,
    Sheringham, and Sharpe their chances. 
    
    			Steve. 
		

    
    re - 1 
    "are any other channels showing the England game tonight"
    
    BBC1 are showing the highlights of the first half followed by live
    second half action.
    
    
    mac

    Yeh, when is the kick-off?
    
    Tony
    

    and I believe the coverage starts on BBC1 at 19:45 and will finish at
    21:00.
    
    *Tiger*

    
    
    I cant believe Taylor is seriously considering dropping Paul Gascoigne,
    Gazza didnt play very well on Saturday (he wasnt helped by getting
    fouled every time he got the ball), but he is still more than capable
    of turning the game our way. If Taylor wants to change things he should
    drop Barnes, and give Lee Sharpe a game.
    
    I'll be suprised if there are to many changes, just Batty for Ince which 
    is enforced, and Ferdinand for Sheringham, if he's fit, with Wright on 
    the bench again, as he is still struggling with the ankle apparently.
    
    I would be suprised to see another draw.
    
    Dave...
    
     

    
    >I cant believe Taylor is seriously considering dropping Paul Gascoigne
    
    It's been reported that Gascoigne has a drinking and eating problem
    (not unlike myself, no doubt) and this is affecting his general fitness
    levels (still not unlike myself). This is the reason for the talk of
    Gazza being dropped.

    I think it's a ploy to get him psyched up for the match.  He seems to
    have lost his lust for getting the ball.  When he was wound up he used
    to produce much better football and get more yellow cards of course.
    He still has an eating drinking problem though!!
    
    Matt.
    
    

RE: .418

The Norwegian team:

Thorstvedt, keeper:	Tottenham
Halle:			Oldham
Pedersen:		Brann, Norway
Bratseth:		Werder Bremen
Bj�rnebye:		Liverpool
Flo:			Sogndal, Norway
Mykland:		Start, Norway
Rekdal:			Lierse
Bohinen:		Lillestr�m, Norway
Leonhardsen:		Rosenborg, Norway
Fj�rtoft:		Rapid Wien


A draw.


Bjarne, Oslo, Norway.

    Bjarne, (.428)
    
    thanks I was reading an old copy of When Saturday Comes over the
    weekend and it listed 9 Norwegian players who had been transferred
    to English league clubs so I was surprised to see so few of them
    in the team...
    
    regards,
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    
    Final result from Oslo....
    
    Norway 2 England 0
    
    Looking forward to the comments from Messers Cossey & Barefield !!
    
    :=)
    
    Del.

    Is this true? - my it's going to be boring next Summer without England
    and Scotland!
    
    Regards,
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    Anyone be kind enough to enter the full time result.
    
    
    Jason...on night shift with no radio/tv.

    Yep, it's true.
    
    No wind ups
    
    Final Result:
    
    	Norway	2  :   England  0 (Straight off BBC World Service Sports
    				   Round up at 22:45 hrs GMT)
    
    So, it looks like no Scotland,England or N. Ireland in U.S. And it
    leaves Wales with the arduous task of ensuring that the U.K. is
    represented. I think they'll make it.
    Will Taylor be sacked, NOW ?
    
    Regards,
    
    Kumar

    Kumar,
    
    thanks for the 'official' confirmation. I don't honestly think England are
    out of it yet take a look at the remaining fixtures Poland have to play
    Norway twice and there's still a lot of games between the top 4 sides
    left.
    
    I rang my mum and she knew this score but you beat me to it - she
    didn't know the more important score of RCS v Rumania (I thought Mum's
    were supposed to know everything?)
    
    On an interesting side note my June edition of WSC (When Saturday
    Comes) was in my mailbox when I got home and it contains an article
    about the Norwegian commentator called Bjorge Lillelien who gained fame
    after Norway beat England in Oslo in September 1981 with his speech
    of "Mrs Thatcher, Winston Churchill, Charlie Chaplin, Derek Batey,
    Amanda de Cadenet, your boys took one hell of a beating...."
    
    Don't suppose he was commentating tonight if so what did he say?
    
    Forget Graham Taylor, it's John major and the tory government who
    should resign (:==:)
    
    Regards,
    
    Andrew.D.wicks
                                         

    Yes Andrew, Resign Taylor, Resign Major and above all Resign Graham
    Gooch!!. Can anyone tell me was it a case of poor English play or have
    Norway improved that much since Gazza gave them that encouragement last
    year.   Ica.

    Oh, and I know this is the wrong conference but can any of you poms
    around Manchester give me the latest weather forecast for the test
    starting today. Thanks,Ica.

    oh ohhh....
    
    I'm not going to put on any money on England going to the US next
    year....did we deserve to lose?
    
    At least Taylor might be given the push now, with a bit of luck!
    
    -Dom

    
    Well the most pathetic display I've seen from England for Years, Norway
    though not a good side tore England apart. I just can't belive how
    awful England were, they can still qualify so at least they are not 
    out of it yet, they need to win all there remaining games and hope Holland
    and Poland drop points along the way. Graham Taylor has to take the
    blame, his team selection was a little strange to say the least the
    team just didn't look as if they knew what they were supposed to be
    doing. Des Walker, what has happened!, the man who England have 
    depended on over the years has lost all confidence his moaning and
    wingeing cost England the first goal.
    
    Disapointed, gutted and pissed off....
    
    Neil...
     

    
    Please read my note 129.289 on their match against TURKEY  and tell me 
    if I'm very surprised. A few chances went their way but this time
    nothing. Lets face it...Norway have quite enjoyably surprised us. It
    was like watching the Danes last summer..devil may care
    attitude...which at least made the match somewhat enjoyable to watch.
    
    Regards,
    
    Dezzz. 

    
    This has to be the worst England performance I have seen for years,
    they were completley clueless. How can a team that outplayed Norway at
    Wembley last year be so bad last night ???, the manager's got to take
    the blame imo, where was Lee Dixon playing, right side of midfield ?, he
    cant pass the ball to another England player, Lee Sharpe at left back
    ???????.
    
    Three wins needed now, I cant see it. We are almost certainly out imo.
    
    Dave... 

    RE: .436	Sad to say, Bj�rge Lillelien is dead, he was a great
    		football commentator. He also sent his _greetings_ to
    	  	pres. Breschniev when Norway qualified for the Olympic
    		football tournament some 10 years ago.:
    		"Comrade Breschniev, here we come !"
    
    What a great day for Norwegian football yesterday !! 
    I was at Ullev�l watching our win against Holland last year, but
    watching the TV together with some neighbours was, beating the Brit's....
    Beats me !
    
    The last time England lost an away game in the qualifying for an European or
    World championship was in 1981, it was on the 9. september, and they
    lost for Norway. 
    
    In 1981 we won because of luck and an England team who underestimated 
    (is there a better word ?) their opponents, yesterday we won because we 
    had the best team, the best organization (our strength ?), the guts.
    And the players even believed the could win, up front !
    
    Our manager don't want to be called a genious, but he really has done a
    lot to the Norwegian team since he started some few years ago.
    Egil "Drillo" Olsen is very scientific, he has statistics on every 
    aspect of a football match you can think of. And he always seems to do
    the rights thing when it comes to pick the right players ! Yesterday
    a local paper wrote about his miss by choosing Lars Bohinen, who joined the 
    team as "Mini" Jacobsen got injuried. He made the last goal and played
    a great match, and the paper had to forgive "Drillo" today. He IS a
    genious.... easy to say on a day like this. "Drillo" has estimated the
    chances for Norway for get to the WC next year as 70 %. Before the
    match his "estimates" was 50 %.
    
    Norway as a football nation has to been taken seriously, the last few
    years we have beaten Italia (two times), England, Holland, Argentina
    ... and our junior team is also on top of their leage, the drew against
    England on tuesday.
    
    
    The table, seniors:
    
    Norway	6 5-1-0 20 - 3	11 pts.
    England     7 3-3-1 16 - 6	 9 pts.
    Holland     6 3-2-1 17 - 8	 8 pts.
    Poland      5 3-2-0  8 - 3	 8 pts.
    Turkey      8 1-1-6  7 - 17	 3 pts.
    San Marino  8 0-1-7  1 - 32	 1 pts.
    
    
    The table, juniors:
    
    Norway	6 5-1-0 15 - 5	11 pts.
    Turkey      8 4-2-2 11 - 9 	10 pts.
    Poland      5 4-0-1 19 - 5	 8 pts.
    England     7 3-2-2 14 - 5	 8 pts.
    Holland     6 1-1-4  5 - 9	 3 pts.
    San Marino  8 0-0-8  2 - 33	 0 pts.
                 
    
    Bjarne

    re last
    
    Sorry Bjarne but you did not beat the "Brits", you beat the English
    and there is a world of difference in that.
    
    Just ask the Oslo police.
    
    Kev......

    If England had Jack Charlton as manager they would have won a WC or EC
    by now.
    
    Charlton does not give care about the press or the public. Under
    Charlton Des Walker wouldn't be mouthing at the ref. over a free, Gazza
    would not be splashed across the papers crying his eyes out after
    losing a semi final, he would have got a kick up the arse and told to
    get on with it, he would't be allowed play with a silly plastic mask to
    protect his face.
    
    All in all the English team would cease to become a media item and get
    back to basics.
    
    
    but .....
    
    
    ......he's not in charge....
    
    
    ...and you're not likely to be in the U.S.....
    
    
    Paul 

    Re .445
    
    Ahhhh... sorry about my "glip", I was thinking about "Asterix in
    Britannia", well - we beat almost the whole world yesterday, didn't 
    we ?
    
    And the Oslo police did a good job yesterday, keeping the English
    supporters in the Stadium an hours or so after the end of the match.
    The problem was that some of them missed their train for Copenhagen...
    On tuesday the police may have been  a little provocative, I don't know, 
    but a local paper has this opinion.
    
    Sorry again for my geographic mistake (why did they sing "Rule
    Britannia" - a while ?).
    
    Bjarne

>    I'm sure the American Police force were delighted with that result as
>    well, It almost completly rules out any soccer violence at U.S.A '94.

Rubbish.. The Germans and probably the Dutch will be there!!! (followed by a
couple of half hearted smiley's)

Last night was total drivel. I've seen more competent performances by my 3
year old daughter in the garden. England do not deserve to go to the US after
that performance.

Woods:	He is getting worse by the game. Why was he off balance for the 1st goal,
before the striker touched the ball, and no world class keeper would allow a shot
straight at him go in.

Dixon:	No ideas. Got caught out of position for the 2nd goal.

Pallister: Solid

Palmer: Kept thinking he was Norwegian. Kept passing to them!!!

Walker:	As Neil said, his confidence is shot to pieces. OK so the free kick
incedent didn't look like a foul, but you never let the attacker get goal side.
Caught in no man's land for the second. Where has his speed gone?? His
international career is surely over as long as he satys in Italy.

Adams: Solid

Platt:	He didn't have a good game, but he battled, as ever. Could have scored
in a similar move to the goal he scored v Belgium in '90, but the ball was too
far ahead.

Gascoigne: Was he playing???

Ferdinand: Quiet 1st half, didn't get the supply he requires. Should have scored
from Lee Sharpe's only decent cross, but mis-cued. Had a good break-away,
showed his pace, but Thorsvedt saved well.

Sheringham: Like Ferdinand but came off at half time

Sharpe: Didn't get the ball in the right positions to be a threat. The only time
he did Ferdinand missed cued.

Wright:	Didn't get enough of the ball

Clough: Should have stayed on the bench!!!

Norway: Confident, and made England look like they'd struggle in the Reading
Sunday league. They're not world beaters by any means, but they play as a unit
and are very difficult to break down. Unless they self-destruct, they could do
very well next year.

Taylor should go now. I'm sure it's him that's the problem. The players need a
manager they respect and want to win for, and I can't see anyone respecting
Taylor. Sure, he was a good league manager, but he's proved that he doesn't have
a clue at international level. Fresh blood in charge is needed if England are 
going to win all their remaining games. They have the talent on the field without
a doubt, but they need a manager to get the best out of them.

Glenn Hoddle, England's Player/manager. Sounds good to me  :-)

Failing that, give Cloughy a call. Give him a couple of months and see if there
isn't an improvement.

Al

P.S. That Norwegian commentator died a couple of years ago. He would have loved
it last night.

    I have never, in memory, seen an England team so outclassed and
    outfought. The Norwegians were technically, tactically and physically
    superb. They supported each other time and again to carve open England
    and could have scored 6 if they really wanted.
    
    I'm sorry for all the English noters here. At times in the past, you
    rode your luck ( eg V Poland last saturday), but luck comes to those
    teams who deserve it. Unfortunately, chickens will always come home to
    roost. The WC wont be the same without England. Like most Irishmen, I
    have a love/hate relationship when I see the England team. I love the
    style they are capable of, and the fact that are culturally and
    geographically close to us in Ireland. I hate the superior attitude
    that still emenates from the English media, just because England won a
    World Cup in 27 years ago.
    
    You'll be missed in US '94. Maybe Wales can join us there, I dont
    know???
    
    Finally, Graham Taylor should be given a boot in the arse by his
    players. He came on the box last night, and immediately said "I feel
    sick about this, as sick as Joe Public back in teh UK"...this clver
    device put Graham at one with Joe Public against the supposed real
    brigands, his players. Taylor was trying to push the blame onto his
    players in public..."I share the responsibility for what happened"
    
    Taylor , you shouldnt say things like that in public if you want to
    have the faith and loyalty of your players. You should say .." I'm the
    manager, I picked the team. We played badly. I accept responsibility.
    We will jsut have to come back and try again in our last three games".
    You should ***NEVER*** berate or belittle your players in public. They
    are humiliated enough. Take them to one side in the next few days,
    individually, and tell them what you thought of their performance, and
    what you want of them in the future. Instill pride in the wearing of
    the White and Blue. Take away the fear factor.
    
    Taylor , you are a lousy manager and a bad human being for the way you
    treat your players. Myself, even as an ordinary father to younng kids,
    know that you ***NEVER*** humiliate your kids in public , no matter how
    bad they've been. You ****NEVER***strip  them of their dignity in front
    of others. You take them to a quiet place, and have your arguement
    there, not in front of their friends and other adults. That way, you
    point out what they've done wrong, allow them to repent in dignity.
    
    Taylor, those that take away the integrity of my character do immeasureable
    damage to me. This is how your players feel this morning.
    
    Taylor, you inherited a great team that had made it to a World Cup
    Semi-Final in 1990. Look what you have done.
    
    Taylor, go.
    
    To all the sickened English supportere here today, I wish you hope to
    lighten your burden, and I wish you a new manager.
    
    *Tiger*

    If England win all three of their remaining matches then they will
    probably qualify.  But who wants to see England scrape in by the skin
    of their teeth only to get thrashed in the WC ?  Wouldn't it be
    better in the long run if they did not qualify, Taylor gets the sack
    and then maybe we can for once qualify for a tournament without scaping
    in.  If we do qualify we'll never get rid of Taylor.  After seeing the game
     against Holland I thought we were finally getting somewhere, but after
    the games against Poland and Norway..??? The whole point of Qualifying
    for the WC is to try to win.  Can one person honestly tell me they
    think England can win with a team like that ?  
     I agree with .446.  If we had Jack Charlton I think things would be a
    lot better.  Taylor worries too much about who to play and individual
    performances, and I think certain players think that they make the
    team.  Maybe now with their backs against the wall they can play
    better.  Maybe now they realise that if they want to play in the world cup,
    then they had better fight for it.  Teams like Norway and Switzerland
    are heading the group tables because they play for a team, a unit and
    they are really focused.  
      England play Poland at home and San Marino and Holland away.  The way
    I see it there's no point in saying if they win this,then if they could
    perhaps.......basically if they don't get their act together,their
    confidence back and start to win games with a good performance, then let
    alone the rest of their WC qualifying mattches, the USA is gonna thrash
    us!
    
    Will.  ( Really P*ssed off)
        

    
    I think the time has come for the FA to sack Graham Taylor if he wont
    do the honorable thing and resign. Any manager that sends a team out to
    play like they played last night, obviously isnt fit to manage an
    International side. The England team is capable of much, much better
    than they showed last night, we know that, but we wont qualify for the
    World Cup now, and that is a disaster.
    
    Its the perfect oppertunity to end the Tottenham saga now, before the
    game and THFC get dragged through the sh*t next week in the courts, (as
    it wont just be THFC that is going to be in the dock), and get Terry
    Venables in the England job. Taylor should be sacked, and Terry
    Venables should be offered the job.
    
    Dave...still totally p*ssed off with last night farce.
    

    
    We're not out yet. Admittedly, we are a very poor side at the moment
    and it's going to take a tremendous turn-around to get this team
    playing football. However, it's not impossible and I still think we can
    qualify. If Norway take 2 points from Holland next week (and this is
    possible) and we get a draw there (or a win) and then win our remaining 
    games against Poland (home) and San Marino (away), I think we'll
    qualify -- it's not too tall an order. However, it's obvious that we
    need a big change in personel to reverse our fortunes. I think Glenn
    Hoddle should be given the manager's job and the likes of Carlton
    Palmer, Lee Dixon, Des Walker, David Platt and Gascoigne removed from
    the team (if only till they discover their form -- although Palmer and
    Dixon should be banned for good).
    
    Still, if England don't make it, then we still will be able to cheer the
    Irish on in '94 (at least probably).
    
    Tim
               

    
    
     Why won't the world cup be the same without England? Why will they 
    be missed if they don't qualify? 
    
     I cannot understand why people seem to think the above. If they 
    don't qualify (and I still think they will) then they don't deserve
    to be there. I'm sure the supporters of Norway and Holland won't be
    upset if England don't qualify. I certainly won't miss them in USA.
    It means the television coverage in Britain might for once be un-biased 
    and will concentrate on all the teams taking part.
    
     England have been living off memories of 1966 and more recently the
    semi-finals in 1990. The press then made out that England were
    potential world champions, they seem to forget that England were very
    lucky to reach them semis in Italy, getting fortunate results against
    Belgium and the Cameroon. Now that they've had a couple of bad results,
    the press and supporters turn against them. As previous notes have
    said, your luck ran out this time.
    
     Danny.

     <<< Note 129.454 by BUSSTP::DSMITH "WORLD BEWARE!! GAZZA'S A PRAT" >>>
                           -< They WON'T be missed. >-

    
    
    
    
>     England have been living off memories of 1966 and more recently the
>    semi-finals in 1990. The press then made out that England were
>    potential world champions, they seem to forget that England were very
>    lucky to reach them semis in Italy, getting fortunate results against
>    Belgium and the Cameroon. Now that they've had a couple of bad results,
>    the press and supporters turn against them. As previous notes have
>    said, your luck ran out this time.
    
>     Danny.



Danny,

Please don't blame the genuine football supporter ( who happens to be English )
for the crass arrogance of the tabloids. 

As to the game .... well England were piss-poor. I had to laugh at Trevor "
whipping in crosses" Brooking, when he said that Norway were an average team.
If that is the case that what are England? Norway looked very dangerous going
forward, but their defence remained untested ( but that could be that they
didn't allow England to attack them or because England were so inept).



Oh well its only a game, and I am not totally surprised given my luck this
season. The Palace were relegated, Moan United won the P.L, the Arzzz won 
both cups and the bloody Tories are still in power.

Stuart 

    
    This adoration of  Glenn Hoddle is going a bit far.
    O.K the guy got Swindon promoted, but they are a team of kickers.
    This form of drooling over Hoddle seems a common disease amongst
    English supporters. He was *never* a brilliant player and is not
    experienced enough to be a good international manager. Media hype once
    again decieves the English public.
    
    Give the job to Ron Atkinson or El Tel (Both untainted by the F.A
    school of excelence) and solve the problems of nation.
    
    By the way, you should sack every English commentator (appart from El
    Tel) along with Taylor. They are as pathetic as he is.
    
    An Impartial Celt.
                                        

    
    	As someone who has a lot more experience of World Cup footbal than 
    the average man can I just say it was better it happened now rather 
    than England qualifying and getting to the States. 
    
    	In the States you would only come up against the likes of Costa 
    Rica, Iran or Peru and get seriously stuffed - take it from me I know. 
    I have suffered even more than you silent English noters.
    
    	As to the previous notes I take exception to those who say Norway 
    aren't a good team. Are you simply repeating Trevor Brooking's 
    comments, he thought Poland were a good team! Norway played an updated 
    version of British football and played it well (maybe because the 
    England squad didn't have a clue). 
    
    	To the noter who objected to Bjarne saying "British", well they 
    would have stuffed Scotland with that performance - wouldn't they.
    
    	Managers? This time you might be lucky, the obvious replacement has 
    just led his team to relegation so the FA won't have the bottle to 
    choose Coppell. Will they? 
    
    	Traditionally the FA choose their managers by how well they wear a 
    blazer and tie and they deliberately exclude anyone with any sign of 
    genius, style or awkward opinions. I reckon they should go for a 
    foreigner with a good solid down to earth approach to the game. I don't 
    think Liverpool will stand in his way! Please before the SFA offer him 
    a job.
    
    

sounds like another night of national humiliation by proxy - i'm glad i couldn't
find coverage of it on tv now ..

one interesting point is that (at least here in Switzerland) it isn't being 
reported as a "shock" result - perhaps other people have a more realistic idea
of our current standing as a footballing nation than we (the english) do. Perhaps
its because their perspective isn't distorted by the (almost unavoidable) bias
you bring to supporting your own club or country

   ray

re: -2

Glen Hoddle never a brilliant player?

Aaargghhh!

heresy, sacrilege, treason.

What planet are you living on?

Send me your address and I'll post you the Tribute to Glen Hoddle video.

What's more, Swindon are not a team of kickers, and never have been. Not only 
do they play attractive passing football (witness Monday's first division 
playoff epic) but, and no disrespect intended, they are crap: it's only Lord
Glenn's rampant genius that has got them into the Premier League.

Oh, I can hardly type, I'm so angry.

Would that we still had the death penalty, oh ye of little footballing brain.

I'm going to calm down.

Mike

PS: Glenn Hoddle for England Manager=World Cup 98 Winners

    England were NOT fortunate against Belgium in 1990, they were against
    the Cameroons and they were unfortunate against Germany.
    
    Anyway back to real issue, last night;
    
    If you think Norway are an average team you are either wrong or you don't
    understand football (probably the latter, seeing as many people thought
    England would win both the last two games.) WAKE UP! Norway are a good
    team, England last night were SH*TE. They were lucky to only get beat
    by 2, 4 or 5 would not have been unfair.
    
    The players were being asked to play in positions they don't normally
    play in. Gascoigne played superbly for Lazio a few weeks ago, he only
    plays crap for England because he doesn't have the same quality of
    players/manager etc, around him that he has in Italy. 
    
    Taylor was honest after the game last night, however he should take the
    blame more than his players, and honesty does not win matches. Get rid
    off him, quickly. Get someone with flair in (NOT Jack Chralton), either
    Francis will do, or Ardilles??? Can you imagine the Fashist gutter
    press reaction if we picked a none English manager? Especially a
    'shock-horror' Argentinian. 

    
    	Good note, Steve. Quite right.
    
    	Let's face it, we've been due one of those performances for
    	a while now.
    
    	Andy.

    
    >What's more, Swindon are not a team of kickers, and never have been.
    
    Oh yes they are (at least on occasions). I'm sure Portsmouth and other
    Newcastle fans will testify to this. However, they can play football and
    there's nothing wrong with a bit of bite to a team -- something England
    lacked in abundance last night. Hoddle would not be worse than Taylor
    (whose clubs sides were all unatractive and in the main, ineffective
    too).                       
    
    Tim

	England were awful last night, but so what. We were lucky to
	only lose 2-0 - it could have been *much* worse...

	All you non-English noters, please don't assume we're all as
	bad as the English media. I would like to think that some of
	us are more realistic.

	It's not all up for England's campaign to qualify but it may
	as well be. If we *do* qualify then things will never change
	as they surely need to. It won't do us any harm to fail every 
	now and again - it's called winning and losing, we all have 
	to learn to accept both. 

	No wonder the Irish and Scots love to see us English munching 
	on humble pie! As a nation, we make such bad losers.

	There are lots of excuses that could be offered for England's
	performance last night, but who's to say it would have been
	any different? Norway deserve this result and it would be 
	wrong to assume they got it because of England's failings.

	Andy.

    
    I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happy with last night.  It wasn't a
    lucky win either nor was it a fluke.  Indeed had Norway not indulged
    themselves Jim Baxter style it could have been 4.
    
    Norway should qualify now.  A result in Holland next Wednesday would
    virtually guarantee that they do.
    
    England will battle it out for second place with Holland and Poland. 
    Taylor will be praying that Holland don't beat Norway to go second.  If
    so England may need to win in Holland.  If Holland draw at hoem to
    Norway and England they'll have to win in Poland to catch England on
    goal difference.  There are a lot of permutations and combinations.
    England are not out yet but they'll need to turn in performances like
    last April instead of last night.
    
    Norway have been very impressive in this group already - beating
    Holland,drawing at Wembley.  They deserve to qualify.  Holland have not
    impressed but they'll be a better side if they reach the finals and
    have Cruijff as manager.
    
    Poland could still make it too.
    
    Gary.

    One man for manager that no-one seems to have mentioned yet. 
    
    Kevin Keegan. He did a tremendous job with Newcastle last season, he
    was a great player/captain for England.
    
    Either him, or Big Ron. At least he LOOKS the part (overcoat, flashy
    watches, gold bracelets, etc.)
    
    Ian

    
    re. 457
    
    Jim,
    I was the noter who objected to Bjarne saying "British" and I did it
    on a point of principle. I am sick to the back teeth of this type of
    selective amnesia when the English media are involved. When fans go
    on the rampage they are "British". When England win, they are English.
    
    Bjarne made a genuine mistake and I genuinely pointed it out to him so
    that he would realise there is a difference between the two. Was I
    wrong ? Did Norway really beat Britain last night ?
    
    As for Norway beating Scotland on that performance last night. 
    
    SO WHAT ?  Does this really mean anything ?? Don't stir up an argument
    that isn't there.
    
    
    Kev...

    >> As previous notes have said, your luck ran out this time.
    
    Yup, I have to agree. I'm an England fan, but I hate all this pre-match
    shite we have to read in here (and in the UK press) from people who seem
    to be watching a different England team to the rest of the world.
    England have had A LOT of luck, every time I see them I am suprised if/when 
    they win. The only time in living memory I've seen them and been proud
    of the performance was the semi-final in 1990. I'm not suprised that their 
    luck ran out in Norway (no disrespect to the Norway team intended). 
    Big Jack once applied for the job as England manager, but he never got
    a reply - so he decided never to manage them. I'd laugh my socks off if
    they offered him the job now and he turned it down (which I reckon he 
    would).
    
    Al.
    

    
    Can someone remind me of all this luck England have had recently, apart
    from the Poland match, which I would admit they were alittle lucky to
    get a result. Was it when they were lucky to get a draw against Holland
    or Norway, or lucky to beat Turkey and San Marino, or lucky to be shit
    in the European Championships....oh I know it was when we went to
    Poland last year and got another draw. Oh yeah...we are really lucky.
    
    Dave...

    
    	I could see the FA choosing Keegan, he fits all the idiot criteria, 
    but it would be a mistake. Despite his performance getting Newcastle 
    promoted I still remember his telly appearances and the inane comments. 
    Didn't Clough refuse to appear on telly with him?
    
    	There must be an English speaking manager with the necessary 
    experience around - what about Andy Rox.... Forget it, wishful thinking 
    on my part.
    
    	On Norway though wasn't their "long ball" game terrific. I read 
    that the Norwegian manager compares their game to Wimbledons! Funny 
    man, it was classic long passes to players who could control the ball 
    and who would take on defenders. Really nice to watch. 
    
    	Norway might do you a favour and beat both Poland and Holland!
    
    

    
    
    re .468
    
     Your right Dave, England aren't/weren't lucky/unlucky. Their
    just utter crap.
    
    Danny.
    

    Like I said, luck goes the way of the brave. If you're a bad team playing
    badly, then luck deserts you. If you're a good team playing well, you
    get the breaks. England used to get the breaks...they fought well
    enough in Poland to get the draw. They kept their heads, despite
    glaring misses by the POles that would have made the score 3-0. I
    remember well enough the luck they used to have. I can still remember
    the stunned silence that greeted the score Poland 1-1 England when it
    flashed across our TV screens in 1991. We were 6 minutes from
    qualifying for Sweden when Lineker scored the equaliser. You dont have
    Lineker anymore (why???) and Wright wouldnt even be fit to clean his
    boots. 
    
    I feel very sorry for all the genuine English Supporters. I would love
    to see England in the USA. I would feel much more empathy watching
    England play than watching, say, South Korea. I enjoy the (mostly)
    friendly banter in these notes, and will miss it next Summer.
    
    Taylor has gotta go. He's a PR specialist and will, rest assured, do
    all in his power to cover his as*. 
    
    *Tiger*

    
    Oh, how depressing !!!!!
    
    What amazes me most about Taylor, is that for months he's been moaning
    on about not being able to play a settled team because of injuries.
    
    Last night, only the absence of Ince was forced upon him. So what does
    he do; give the guys a chance to improve on Saturday's performance ?
    No, he completely changes the shape, style (??), and tactics. 
    
    Why oh why play with three centre-backs, forcing a natural winger to
    spend most of his time defending, play another sometime-centre-back in
    midfield, and put a dreadful passer of the ball in as an attacking
    right-back.
    
    He picked his team to counter what he saw as Norway's strengths, not
    one that capitalised on our own. He knew that a win would have been the
    best result, but IMO was scared of going out for it.
    
    The last manager I saw who changed his team week-in week-out to stifle
    the opposition led them from out of the old 1st Division and to the
    foot of the old 2nd [new 1st] Division. Where is Neil Warnock now ? 
    Nowhere - probably running his chiropody business again. I suggest 
    Mr. G. Taylor looks him up, 'cause if he carries on this way he too will 
    soon be an ex-football manager.
    
    England do have class players, and players with conviction and
    commitment (As do all of the 'home' countries to a greater or lesser
    extent). What they are lacking at the moment is some-one to blend them
    and allow them to play to their strengths. Taylor is not the man.
    
    Brian O.B.E. Clough, your country needs you. No doubt the Ivory Towers
    at Lancaster Gate will ignore all the pleas again, but surely, even
    some of the old buffers there couldn't fail to have felt shame and
    humiliation at last night's performance.
    
    Rob
    
    P.S. Congratulations to Norway - a well deserved victory for an
    attractive, well organised football team.
    

    Well at least there's one thing that all the noters seem to agree on
    and that is Taylor is f*cking S*ITE.  But what we have here is a no win
    situation.  If England Qualify, Taylor will probably stay, and if they
    don't qualify he'll get the sack.  So what's it gonna be ?  A trip to
    the states or a new manager.  I'd rather have a new manager.  If the FA
    got their head out of their *ss maybe we could have both.  The next
    match is in Sept, so what they should do is let Taylor play the 3 Matches
    in the U.S and if he f*cks up like I know he will, then they have
    plenty of time to put in a new manager before sept.  I knew Taylor was
    a d*ckhead when he wouldn't play Waddle.  
      By the way, what do the majority of fans think about Hately ? should
    he be considered ? He was pretty devastating in the Euro-championships.
    What about him and Waddle in a side, Waddle puts the cross in for
    Hately's head ? 
    
    Will. 

    I watched the game in my local last night with the same bunch of lads
    who have watched SKY alll season.  I must say that you get a different
    perspective from the "real" football supporters in England to that
    portrayed on the press and TV.  Two of the stalwarts (Arsenal fans!)
    walked out at half time having seen enough.  At the end of the game
    there was unanimous agreement that England were stuffed.
   
    An early noter put his finger on it.  AT international level you have
    to fight for every ball for 90 minutes.  More and more of the smaller
    nations have made great progress in terms of organisation, skill and
    tactics.  Add this to passion and pride in your country and it's a
    powerful combination.  If you accept that any national squad,
    especially of a powerful nation like ENgland, has good players, the job
    of the manager is to motivate them to compete.
    
    Now I am grudgingly a fan of Jack Charlton but for me the essential
    difference between him and previous Irish managers (and the current
    English manager) is his two consistent battle cries over his long reign
    - "GO OUT AND COMPETE" and PUT THEM UNDER PRESSURE".  He has motivated
    a good squad to go where no Irish team has gone before.
    
    Watching last night's game brought back memories of Ireland's games
    when we were on the brink of making the breakthrough.  Looking at the
    Norwegian crowed reminded me of the heady days in Lansdowne when a
    frenzied crowd willed the team to vistory over Spain, the group
    leaders.
    
    Jack Charlton has moulded the traditional values of English league
    footballers into a cohesive unit.  It may not be pretty, but it works. 
    There is no way an Irish (or English) team under Jack Charlton 
    would have conceded the battle to Norway last night.  
    
    For some reason the English media seem to have a high notion of playing
    a fancy passing game.  This is not what English league players are good
    at.  Arsenal won two cups this years...Q.E.D. by competing and physical
    power.  
    
    Don't anyone tell me that Kevin Moran at 37 (or is it 38) is a better player
    than Des Walker.  However he wouldn't get caught like Walker did last
    night.  Norway had at least three English league players who wouldn't
    get within an asses roar of the English squad.
    

    For England the answer is to get back to basics.  Get stuck in. Get a
    manager to motivate the good club players that we "Celts" cheer every
    other week of the season.  Forget the fancy stuff and the Italian
    primadonnas.  Looks like England need defenders in the Steve Bruce
    mould...not elegant but effective, not fancy but forceful, not meek but
    a leader on the field.
    
    Now to the Baltics next week...fingers crossed that at least one
    "English League" based team will give Jimmy Hill, The Saint and co.
    something to talk about.
    
    I genuinely felt sorry for the "real" English fans in my local last
    night.
    
    
    Shane  
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
      

    
    All this stuff is BRILLIANT to read.
    
    All because ENGLAND lose ONE game!!!!
    
    
    Maybe they should get used to losing more often, then it wouldn't be so
    painful.
    
    Imo Taylor should go, but if he did would it change anything?
     All England managers since Ramsey have been to scared to express
     themselves by picking THEIR TEAM. BECAUSE THEY ARE SCARED OF LOSING A
    GAME (ANY GAME).
    
    Anyway it's not over until the final whistle.
    
    
    Nick.

    >>    All this stuff is BRILLIANT to read.
    >>    All because ENGLAND lose ONE game!!!!
    
    Which is probably why the managers are so scared. If it's like this
    in here, imagine what the gutter press are writing at this very minute.
    
    The answer is simple - burn down fleet street, sack Taylor (now!!!), give
    Big Ron the job, Oh! and shoot the 'fans' in the jail in Oslo.
    
    Al.
    

First: I am very proud on behalf of the Norwegian football society, many of
       you noters really give the "Drillos" (nickname for the team; after
       the manager Egil "Drillo" Olsen nickname, years ago he was a well 
       known dribbler) good credit ! Thank you all !

So how good was the Norwegian team vs. the English ?
Here is the Norwegian paper "Dagbladet"'s judges of the two teams players.
What do you think ? The scale is from 1 to 6.

Erik Thorstvedt		5		Chris Woods	3
Stig Inge Bj�rnebye  	5		Lee Dixon	2
Tore Pedersen		5		Des Walker	2
Rune Bratseth		4		Tony Adams	4
Gunnar Halle		6		Gary Pallister	3
�yvind Leonhardsen	5		Lee Sharpe	1
Lars Bohinen		5		Carlton Palmer	4
Kjetil Rekdal		5		David Platt	2
Erik Mykland		5		Paul Gascoigne	2
Jostein Flo		4		Ted Sheringham 	1
Jan �ge Fj�rtoft	4		Les Ferdinand	3
G�ran S�rloth		5		Ian Wright	2

Average, 12 players:	4.8				2.4

I think David Platt deserves better - he was all over. Oh... forget it,
I don't like this kind of ranking. Normally. Sometimes I do.

And the rest of Scandinavia is also celebrating:

Denmark - Albania	4-0 (4-0)
Sweden - Israel		5-0 (2-0)

That gives a Scandinavian total of 11-0 (7-0).			;-)


Bjarne

    
    Re England and luck
    
    IMO
    
    1990 WC a little bit lucky to qualify, Poland hit the bar in the last
    minute and deserved more than a 0-0 draw.  Deserved to qualify over the
    whole group though.
    
    1990 WC lucky to get to the semis, Belgium and Cameroon both deserved
    to win
    
    1990 WC unlucky to lose to Germany.  Given that they were in the semis
    probably deserved to win the tournament.
    
    1992 EC lucky to draw v Ireland at Wembley, lucky to draw in Poland.
    
    1992 EC Finals got what they deserved
    
    1994 WC unlucky to draw at home to Holland and to a lesser extent
    Norway.  Got what they deserved v Turkey and San Marino.  Lucky to
    draw in Poland.
    
    Having said all of the above there is more to it than luck.  England
    showed character, grit and determination in some of the above games. 
    This was sadly lacking last night.  Gary Lineker's class saved England
    in the past.  Had he been playing last night he may have taken one of
    the half chances and England could have stolen a point.
    
    Gary.  
    
    Gary.

re .471....

    Tiger, South Korea will hardly be replacing England in the US. It will be
either Holland or Poland by the looks of things, who knows maybe both Holland
and Poland will qualify. I for one will be a lot happier to see Holland there
than England for a number of reasons. 

    The only decent football that England have played in the past few years was
in Italy, and I also cheered for them against Germany, so Iam not the anti
English git that some folks think Iam.  What pisses me off is the garbage the
English media think about this "unbeatable" team and we have a few noters in here
who behave the same.  I have feelings for the genuine supporters in here and can
only say  "it looks bad, but all is not lost".

   I honestly hope that Holland qualify, their history in the world cup is a
good one, and I believe we would all miss the skills of Van Basten, Guillit,
Bergkampf, Koeman and a few others....

                                                                  -dave-

    Half the problem is always going to be that, there is a confusion
    between the English team and the English League which has provided
    great European Cup winners etc.
    
    These teams were made up of in general all BRITISH players up to
    quite recently.
    
    So the sooner we have a British team made up of Scots, English, Welsh,
    and Northern Ireland players the better. The World can give us
    the World Cup to keep as there wont be any point of a competition!
    
    :-) Dom.....
    
    What a team the late 60's would have had with Best,Law,Charlton,Greaves
    etc etc.....
                            

    
    re: -1
    
    Yeah ! and the English would just end up draging everyone down to their
    own level.
    
    I've said it before and I will say it again. It's your so called school
    of excelence at Lilishawl (spelt that wrong) that has wrecked the
    English game. Your manager was *educated* there and most of your young
    footballing talent is there at this very moment having it personality surgically 
    removed. 
    Gazza,Hoddle,Waddle are over rated clowns hyped up by the English
    media. None of these players have made a mark on world football in the
    way Best,Pele,Van Basten etc... have, yet the English press would have
    us beleive otherwise.
    They were put on pedestals at a time when the English league were lost
    for a half decent world class player. Now for the first time in years a
    player worthy of world class status is there on the podium and Giggs is
    Welsh.
    To stop the rot you must get rid of the whole F.A mentality towards
    English football not just Taylor.
    
    Face it. The only chance for England is to find Celtic
    Irish/Scotish/Welsh players with English grannies and play them !
    
    An impartial Celt 
    

    >>    Face it. The only chance for England is to find Celtic
    >>    Irish/Scotish/Welsh players with English grannies and play them !
    
    :^)

    
    
     Actually, it's not a bad suggestion. One of the reasons why Scottish
    football is so bad at the moment is that the majority of plonkers
    coaching young players are all "trained" at the SFA school in Largs
    under the guidance of Andy Roxburgh and Craig Brown, the Scotland 1 and
    2. This means that they are all coached/trained the same way and after
    a couple of years, many good youngsters have all their ability stiffled
    and before we know it, they're lost to the game. They have to become
    good team players which means being able to run up and down the park
    for 90 minutes and fight for the jersey. Utter crap!!
    
     Danny.

>in Italy, and I also cheered for them against Germany, so Iam not the anti
    
    But that's only because you live here isn't it ?
    
    	- Robin

       
       From this man's viewpoint in the States (including tickets for all
       1st round & quarterfinal games at Boston), I'd be pleased indeed
       if England stay home next year.  Just about any of the other
       EuroSides would be either more interesting to watch or better for
       ticket re-selling.
       
       On the other hand, England fans should take heart -- I think
       you've got a fine chance to get the upper hand when Your Boys take
       on San Marino.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    
    Mr Topaz,
    
      Based on last nights performance, I doubt it.
    
    I have heard tha during a televised interview this lunch-time, the FA
    have given their backing to Taylor. Something about Taylor not being
    responsible for how the players perform on the pitch.
    
    Oh well.
    
    Anyway, as the next game is in September, would a new manager really
    have time to prepare for it ?
    
    Wayne
                                 

    Re 470
    
    So what does that make Scotland then???
    
    
    
    
    
    Gary

    
    Im sure youll find in the inane Barnes v Giggs topic that Giggs is
    English but chose to play for Wales, as his mother is Welsh.
    
    We cannot have a British International team as the slots allocated to
    the leagues of England, Scotland,NI, and (now) Wales will be reduced.
    From an emotional, nationalistic point of view it wouldnt work..if they
    played at Wembley ther would be complaints of English bias, if the
    'ethnic minorities'  (I use this term loosely as NI, Scotland and Wales
    comprise a small % of UK population) wern't represented fairly there
    would be complaints.
    
    re a new manager...... My ideal replacement for taylor would be a
    manager who has proven success at club level, AND a lot of European
    experience.  At the time Taylor was appointed, Clough would have been
    the right man.  At this present time who is there ???  Hoddle, Keegan,
    Big Ron who have all been mentioned do not fall into this cateagory.  I
    guess only Ferguson, El Tel and George Graham would fit the bill
    ..would they want it ?? would England offer the post to a Scot ??
    would a Scot accept it ??, does El Tel want to finish his battle with
    Sugar ??  too much speculation.   Sacking Taylor at this time may have
    a negative effect to the remaining matches, so perhaps he should stay. 
    Who knows, with their pride stung, they might come out at the next game
    play really well, dominate the game totally, and score 4 .....and
    become the darlings of the scum press again.
    
    One bad game doesnt make a disaster make, and England are not out of it
    yet.
    
    Paul

    
>    One bad game doesnt make a disaster, and England are not out of it
>    yet.
    
     Typical. Grasping at straws once again. Just face the facts. YOU'RE
    CRAP and you're NOT going to qualify for USA '94. How long does it take 
    for this simple message to sink in ? Somebody drop the penny quickly !
    
    	

    
    ummm excuse me.......
    
    Is this the world cup group 2 note or the Anti-English note ?
    
    Paul

    
    Aren't they the same thing anyway?

    
    I'm not Anti-English. I just want you to wake up to the fact that your
    team is not one of the better teams in the world and nor do they
    have a god given right to be.
    When you get a team together who can play football with style and
    a manager and press corps with modesty I will be only too willing to 
    commend them.
    It's your arrogance in regard to football that pisses me off and it has 
    done since 1966.
    Get a grip,Get a Team, Get people to like you, Get El Tel (A man with
    credibility, popularity and who takes nor talks no bullshit)
    
    An Impartial Celt.

    re .489
    
    totally agree with you about success at club level. England need a
    proven WINNER as a manager, not someone who's been good at building
    teams to move up through the league divisions and stop dead.
    
    When did England last have a manager who won a championship for
    Christ's sake? Alf Ramsey......
    
    All this talk of Big Ron is a joke.  What has he won?  Remember that
    unlike most managers, Atkinson has been fortunate enough to be involved
    with very big clubs since the seventies whether Man U, Wednesday or
    Villa, and what has he won? 
    
    
    What did Taylor win at Club level??? What did Bobby Robson win at club
    level? The F.A. Cup? 
    
    
    England had no leadership on the park last night. I don't believe they
    would have given as dismal a performance if Bryan Robson was
    Captain....now I'm not advocating his return, he's well past his
    sell-by date, but a new captain should be appointed for the next game.
    At one stage last night either Jimmy Hill or El Tel remarked that Platt
    went 25 minutes without being mentioned...some captain.
    
    Declan

     Dear Mr Hayden,
    
    As I was the topic of your 'lets face it youre crap' response.
    
    Just a small point....I am Scottish, and yes we are crap.  I was
    talking about the English team, and I while I may wished to have
    expressed the same feelings as yourself, I tried to be diplomatic and
    offer some constructive, rather than destructive, opinions.  
    Try it sometime...
    
    I still dont think that England are out of it, but it will be tough for
    them.
    
    Paul

    at the risk of interrupting this note could I remind everyone
    that should Norway beat Holland next week it may not be as bad as it
    looks.
    
    regards,
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    
    Dear Mr. Rankine,
    
    I was also refering to the English team and I am sure that this was
    obvious to you. My comments are constructive as the sooner the English
    public realise how bad their team and comentators are, the better for
    the future of world football. After all the English league and national
    Team are still important to the future of both our nations football.
    
    An impartial Celt

�    I'm not Anti-English. I just want you to wake up to the fact that your
�    team is not one of the better teams in the world and nor do they
�    have a god given right to be.�
�    When you get a team together who can play football with style and
�    a manager and press corps with modesty I will be only too willing to 
�    commend them.
�    It's your arrogance in regard to football that pisses me off and it has 
�    done since 1966.
�    Get a grip,Get a Team, Get people to like you, Get El Tel (A man with
�    credibility, popularity and who takes nor talks no bullshit)
�    
�    An Impartial Celt.
	
	
	You should have added, "Get a life", because if maybe you get one 
	yourself then perhaps you'll have more important things to be pissed 
	off about. 

	Chips anyone?

	Hope this helps,
		Ian.

Re a few back - the England manager before Robson and
Greenwood was Don Revie who at the time of his 
appointment was by far the most successful English 
manager - great team, 2 championships, FA cups etc - and
look what he did!

In general, OK England were crap  but only 2 games ago
against Holland I thought they played some of the best
football I've seen from an England team, especially in
the 1st half before Gascoigne got assaulted.

Jamie

    You're right, Revie won the league with a superb team (wasn't he
    England manager when Leeds won their second title?) but Leeds nickname
    at that period was "always the bridesmaid, nevber the bride". They won
    nothing near their potential......Leeds weren't the great winners they
    should have been. And in the end, Revie walked out on England.....after
    how long?
    
    Declan

    Thought I'd balance the England-bashing in here by putting in some
    Norway-bashing :-)
    
    Re: .496
    
>    at the risk of interrupting this note could I remind everyone
>    that should Norway beat Holland next week it may not be as bad as it
>    looks.
>    
>    regards,
>    
>    Andrew.D.Wicks
    
    ...and may I remind you Andrew that Norway have *never* won an away
    game against class opposition in *any* competition whatsoever. OK so
    they beat Holland. OK so they've beaten Italy. Everybody wins the odd
    home game, even Wales. To qualify you need results home *and* away.
    Norway are and remain a 3rd rate team and the fact that they beat
    England does not contradict this statement in any way. 
    
    Poland and Holland to qualify
    
    	cheers,
    
    		Stefan

    
    Following on Andrew's point.  The following scenario sees England
    qualify.
    
    Holland v Norway - draw
    England v Poland - home win
    San Marino v Holland - away win
    Holland v England - draw
    San Marino v England - away win
    Poland v Holland - draw
    
    England 14 pts
    Holland 13 pts
    
    Even if Holland win in Poland they could lose on goal difference as
    England will know how many they need in San Marino.
    
    Gary.

    
    RE:.494
    
    Bobby Robson also led Ipswich to European success in 1981.
    IMO he quit (or was hounded out),the England job too soon,
    as he was just getting a decent side together in '90 before
    Taylor stepped in and ripped the guts out of it.Which is
    probably just as well for us Scots).:>)
    
    P.S.
    Since Scotland and N.Ireland are out of next year's WC,and
    England and Wales are as good as out,maybe we should reform
    the old British Championships.But then again,the F.A. would 
    never allow this since none of us "British" hooligans are
    allowed anywhere near London,are we? 

    Re .503,
    
    could you explain how Wales are "as good as out"?
    
    this I have to hear
    
    Regards,
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

If the FA has any guts they would have fired Taylor today. This man is, as 
was shown in a daily rag after Sweden, a Turnip head. He was made manager of
England after taking Villa to 2nd place in the League and was hailed as the
new messiah. The same is going on now with Keegan and Hoddle. Both have not
yet managed at the higest level and they are now being looked on as the next
england manager. It will be like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.
Get someone who the players respect, I don't believe Taylor was ever liked
by the players and after having a go at them last night, they will like him
less. England need a winner, someone who will respect the players and the
players respect him. They don't need someone who has won 5 league titles.
Graham has won trophies, Atkinson has won trophies. I would pick one of these.
Atko may have not won a league title but his teams play good football and
he has a good knowledge of the game and calls a spade a spade.
I know Graham is a Scot, but there is damm all Englishmen who fit the bill.
And no, you can't have Fergie.

�@

    RE -1
    
    What makes you think that Graham would want to be England Manager
    because
    
    1...He is Scottish
    
    2...He is Arsenal through and through,the man has Arsenal
    memorobilia(sp) in his home and it's been said that this is why his
    first wife left him.
    
    3...He's got a European Campaign to look forward to with at least
    a successfull side that battles (more than you can say for England).
    
    Oh England can't have Fergie because Man U are so great but Graham's a
    likely candidate.
    
    Get real and Get bent
    
    
    Anyway I digress,have to agree with a few notes back would not be such
    a bad idea to keep Taylor as there is no way we will qualify with him
    and at least it will save us the embarrassment of a nightmare in the
    US.Although I had set my heart on going to America to watch England but 
    had this in mind before Taylor's self distruct job on the England team,
    England did look like they had the makings of a good side before he
    took over.
    
    Jason
    
    Jason

RE: .501

>    Thought I'd balance the England-bashing in here by putting in some
>    Norway-bashing :-)

     You are Swedish, aren't you ?
    
>    ...and may I remind you Andrew that Norway have *never* won an away
>    game against class opposition in *any* competition whatsoever. OK so
>    they beat Holland. OK so they've beaten Italy. Everybody wins the odd
>    home game, even Wales. To qualify you need results home *and* away.
>    Norway are and remain a 3rd rate team and the fact that they beat
>    England does not contradict this statement in any way. 
>    
>    Poland and Holland to qualify
>    
>    	cheers,
>    
>    		Stefan

     So the fact that we have these results:

	Norway - Holland	2-1
	England - Norway	1-1
	Norway - England	2-0
	Norway - Turkey		3-1
	Norway - San Marino    10-0
	San Marino - Norway	0-4

	22 scored - 3 behind Thorstvedt

     makes us a 3rd rate team ? So what is a 1st or a 2nd rate team ?

     We don't want to look back at our football history (even if we won the
     bronze medal in the '36 olympics :-). You are right about our history,
     but after "Drillo" joined as our manager, we have 5 losses out of 27
     matches. 
     In opposite to England, our football history is written in the 90's, 
     not in the 60's. Forgive me, I have always been a fan of English football,
     but the times they are a'changing. 

     Here is the statistics four our away matches after "Drillo", so you
     have a point, Stefan, but there is only 5 days to go for the Holland game.
    
	Away wins:	5   (Qatar, Tunisia, Bermuda, San Marino, Cypern)  :-)
	Away draws:	3   (England, Portugal, Italy)
	Away losses:	2   (China, Denmark)
     
     I think we *never* have been as strong as we are now. Not that I think we
     will beat Holland, but we can struggle for a draw. We have lost the
     respect for the _1st_ range nations.


Bjarne, (with good luck to Sweden, see you next year in the states !)
                          

re a few back...

	Jason,
		You can always go over and watch the Irish!! 8^)

	Mick (who hopes to be there)

re: -2

How did Norway manage to lose to China?

Have they suddenly become a footballing superpower or is this even more 
embarrassing for England (i.e. we are not as good as China)?

Apparently Glenn Hoddle is not renewing his contract with Swindon so it's 
obvious that bert millichip has had a sly word with him and he'll be taking
over from Graham Taylor soon. 8-) (In my dreams)

Mike

    
    Congratulations to Norway on a well deserved win. Some lovely football
    - it is a pity that they didn't want to score in the last half an hour.
    What ever Graham Taylor/ the English press were thinking about talking 
    about 3/4 points from the last two games I'll never know. In both matches 
    England looked second best.
    
    Talyor leaving - hopefullly (not! - for non Englnad supporters). The man
    is to international football management what John Major is to 
    international politics. Dull, Boring, radiates an air of cluelessness (?) 
    and despair to those around. 
    
    The (late) replacements - clough, El Tel and big fat ron. Great managers
    who have made good teams with little or nothing to work with. Also great 
    media manipulators in their own way. To add to this list how about the
    one and only "Big Mal" Allison. With any of the above, England could still
    get beat by smaller nations who didn't invent the game but at least the 
    after match interviews would be worth listening to. 
    
    ;-)
    
    John M.
       

    
    I'm still confident we'll qualify, all be it with the help of the
    other Countries. The only problem with this is, Taylor will still be in
    charge the only way he'll leave is if we fail to qualify. So it looks
    as if we are stuck with him until after the World Cup Final.
    
    Lets put it this way, everyone will have forgotton Wednesdays Result when
    David Platt leads us to the final next year, I won't be arrogant and
    say we'll win it but, you never know in a finals. If the last few
    Tournements are anything to go by there has been a steady progression
    and pattern to Englands World Cup Campaign.
    
    86  Quarter Final's
    90  Semi Final's
    94  Final..
    98  FINAL**WINNERS** if we don't win it in 94
    
    Neil... 

    
    
     Neil, isn't it about time you changed your profile header. The fat
    chappie, once again couldn't kick his backside when the pressure was
    on. Given the number of caps he's got, how often has he actually played
    as well as a "world-class superstar" should? Ok, he's done the business
    against a few minnows but that's about it. He occassionally plays well
    for his Italian club but any average to good player should be able to 
    do that when in a team with quality players around him.
    
     I'm afraid the verdict is still the same "Gazza'a a PRAT"
    
     Danny.

Neil,

Your confidence in England reveals me to be a pseudo-fairweather fan. Only 
a true supporter can watch us get massacred by a second-rate Scandinavian team
and conclude that next year we'll be in the World Cup Final.

I am lost in admiration. 8-)

Go England: I will never doubt you again.

Mike

    
    	This is not a note inspired by a dreadful defeat in the vain of "oh
    my god what has happened to England"  or "Sack the manager"
    	THis is an opion that I have carried for a few years now. 
    	I hope England do not qualify for the finals. Then, and only then,
    will pepole start to realise just how dreadful the English game in
    general has become. The whole system needs to be re-thought. Our method
    and style of play stems from the way young kids are taught to play the
    game - or how they see the game played. There is so much emphasis on
    athleticism and hard work that most of our players are excellent
    athletes who can run at 90mph for the full 90 minutes. The current
    teaching at th School of Excellence (!!) is route one football relying
    on a strong tackle in defence and then a quick hoof to a fast forward
    ie Arsenal, Adams to Wright. There are plenty of youngsters who have
    lots of skill and like to take time on the ball and play neat passing
    movements. These players though are nearly always then criticised for
    not using their Ben Johnson-like forwards properly or not working hard
    enough for the team in chasing back and hasseling the opposition. Young
    players especially then lose heart and either try to change the way
    they play or they are lost to the game permanently. We need to develop
    a school of true Excellence that teaches players such things as skill
    and how to create space and time for themselves. WE have players that
    can do that, the likes of Giggs, Hoddle, Gascoigne and Waddle. these
    players again get criticism for not chasing back and throwing in 
    crunching tackles.
    
    	We do produce some talented and skillfull players but where we lag
    behind the rest of Europe and also the emerging African nations is the
    level of skill through the whole team. Every player including defenders
    should have some skill, they should be comfortable to run with the
    ball, to pass it accurately and to be happy to keep the ball at their
    feet for more than two seconds.
    
    	Until we can re-educate the system England - and the other home
    natins cannot expect to be Winners. 
    
    	As I said at the start of this soap box speech, I have thought this
    for some time now. I am a die hard Arsenal fan but I do not go to see
    them anymore - nor do I make any special effort to see any League games
    of any club. I just do not find the football played in 98% of these
    games enjoyable. The only games I make an effort to watch are the
    Italian League on Channel 4! Usually much more interesting and
    enjoyable to watch.
    
    
    
    		Tony B. 
    
    

    
    
    re last
    
     That's the most sensible note in this conference for years. As was 
    said, it applies to football in Britain as a whole, not just 1 
    country. The whole system, schools of excellence, coaching schools
    etc have ruined football in this country so much that we are now far
    behind in real footballing terms. We'll probably always be there or
    there abouts because of our "great fighting and team spirit" (god I
    hate that saying) but as for ever winning anything, forget it. 
    
     The problem is trying to change the system. I don't know how it
    operates in England, but up here in Scotland, almost all the coaches
    with league clubs and many of the youth and junior coaches all go
    through an SFA caoching school and are basically trained to think, act
    and talk the same way. You then see boys club "managers" standing at 
    the sidelines in their fancy club trench coats, berating 5 and 6 year
    olds for not coming back to defend or mark space. 
    
     Danny.

    Mr Impartial Celt,
    
    For someone who claims to be impartial, I find your comments incredibly
    offensive.
    
    You keep on stating that we English supporters must face facts that
    "You are crap" and "You are not going to qualify for U.S.A. 94".
    
    Fair enough. That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But you
    blindly ignore facts that do not suit you. Except for one or two
    English 'Rednecks', we all realise that the last two games England have
    played, they played very badly. We know that Taylor is not a good
    manager, and that he has not got a good team. We have been acknowledging
    these facts for the last 100+ notes. Even the Press (including the
    better Newspapers) have been heralding these facts to all who would
    read them.
    
    The biggest fact that you ignore totally, is that England CAN still
    qualify for the finals in U.S.A. 94. Granted, they probably wont, but
    none the less, it is still a possibilty. That, Mr Celt, IS a FACT.
    Whether or not the standard of football played is pleasing to you,
    or the rest of the world is not a criteria for which qualification
    is based. Naturally, WE would like to see England in the Finals.
    
    As this is the note to discuss the group that England play in, and
    as we are English, we are allowed (unless someone changed the rules)
    to discuss the chances/performances etc of our National team. And long
    may we continue to do so.
    
    I find it amazing that that the cornerstone for you hatred of English
    Football are the constant reminders of 1966.
    1: Why should we not be allowed to mention and reflect upon past success ?
    2: Why is it always the non English who always bring it up ? (Scan this
       topic, and record all notes mentioning 1966)
    
    Please remember that the English are allowed to be as partisan in the
    support of England as the rest of the world is in their own countries.
    If we choose to want/demand/expect better of our National teams, that
    is our concern. If we want to be over the top, we will. If we expect
    a God given right to be successfull, then so what ?. It is only
    ourselves that we delude. It is us that end with our pride hurt. Are
    you really afraid that you may end up believing it ?
    
    Please go back to the topic of your own group, and stop this mud
    slinging that you enjoy so much. There have been many comments,
    views and opinions that have been constructive, and that I have enjoyed
    reading, and I would like to thank the contributors for them. 
    
    An Impartial Anglo-Saxon
    
    

    P.S.
    
    I agree with .516 (and .517) wholeheartedly.
    
    Wayne

    Here's my annual Big Ron for England supremo entry:
    
    Big Ron For England supremo!
    
    And there you had it.
    
    barry. 

    England are not dead and buried yet, they might be on a life support
    machine but if they win their three matches, they could be on the way
    to recovery.
    
    I think the difference with the Norway match and the Holland match was
    the attitiude of the manager. In Wembly he picks a team to attack and
    attack they did. Then he turns around and picks a team to counter act
    the Norwegians. Why worry about the opposition, play to your own
    strenghts (and ye do have them) and let them worry about you.
    
    As regards coaching, I agree with everythink said. I had the experience
    of bringing a youth over for trial with Villa a few years ago. This
    youth could dribble with a sixpence. He was an out and out winger. We
    stayed for two weeks and he was coached in speed & stamina for 90% of
    the  time and skills 10%. He finally got a match prior to leaving. In
    the first half he got about three kicks of the ball, which he then
    layed off. At half time I questioned him around his display and asked
    if he was nervous. The reply shocked me. He was told that he had a
    square of ground to cover and he was not to leave it. I immediately
    told the manager that he would not be playing in the second half and
    gave my reasons. He agreed to allow him 20 mins to prove himself. This
    he did by scoring 2 and laying on 2. He was also offered to sign. Does
    this type off attitude promote good football.
    
    Regards
            Stephen
    
      

    well the last couple of notes have been encouraging...
    
    A lot to do with the decline in standards in our little island has to
    do with the 'win at all costs' attitude ..win trophies, not friends.
    This coupled with the fear of losing and the business pressure of
    making profit must play a factor.  As someone stated earlier, any
    revival has to start at an early age and move upwards.  If kids are
    being subjected to the win or bust attitude at 5 or 6 years old, then
    we dont have any hope for the future.
    
    In the days of the Dutch 'total football' one of the reasons given was
    that in Dutch schools football the kids had to play in a different
    position from the one that they played in the previous week.  Im not
    sure whether this was strictly the case, or how it could be 'enforced'
    but it sounds like a great idea to me.  There was no doubt that the
    Dutch team of the 70's were great individual players, but played as a
    team as well.  It could be argued that they didnt win a great
    deal...but that attitude is what Im saying is the problem.
    
    If the schools of excellence could advocate such a programme, Im sure
    that the quality of our football would start to improve at the top
    level in some 7-10 years time.  Unfortunately as we know, very few
    people are prepared to invest in long term benefits...but somethings
    got to be done...or well end up with a country full of Wimbledons and a
    national team(s) where night games require searchlights and not
    floodlights !!.
    
    Paul
    
    
    
    Popular managers in this (and other notes) are Clough, El TEl, Hoddle,
    Keegan etc....all of whom want to have teams who play football.  An
    underlying reason for the Sugar v El Tel situ is that Terry wants his
    team to play good football (and if they win something thats a bonus)
    Sugar wants Tottenham to win...and make profit.

     
    re:518
    
    GOTCHA !
    
    re: All on coaching
    
    Excelent notes. Couldn't agree more.
    Just look back to the times when you and I were kids and played street
    football. On the working class streets of Britain & Ireland that was where 
    true genius was bred. Emulating our idols. Trying to do the little
    flicks , the body swerves, etc... The kids of today don't see that kind
    of thing on a week in week out basis any more (unless they watch
    Channel 4) and thus they have nothing to copy. We are losing agrip on a
    great game and the rot started with the F.A school of excelence.
    
    An Impartial Celt.

    re .486
    
    Mr Topaz - are you implying that you are a ticket tout ???? I hope not.
    
    		Brian
    

    
    ESSB::PHAYDEN
    
    RE. GOTCHA...
    
    Well done, that was really good, your a real card.
    
    Yawn.
    
    Dave...

    Anyone here Trevor Brookings comments when Les Ferdinand missed
    England's only real "chance" early in the 2nd half. 
    
    "finishing is not his strong point"
    
    England's centre forward can't finish. Frightening isn't it.
    
    Andy
    

    
    re:525
    
    Was that satire ? Oh you are a clever boy !
    
    An Impartial Celt.

re .527

Was that sarcasm?

Do you write all your own material?

You're a funny man. Perhaps you should audition for the Russ Abbot show.

    
>You're a funny man. Perhaps you should audition for the Russ Abbot show.
    
    There's already a queue forming, headed by Graham Taylor and his
    clowns. I'm not a slapstick fan myself though.
    
    Tim

    
    re:528
    
    No. If I wanted to be sarcastic I would have said
    
    "England have a great chance of getting to USA '94"
    
    An Impartial Celt.
    

re: last

Ooooh. Cutting.

8-)

                                 
    The fact that the Wimbledons, Sheff Utds and Arsenals are
    'succesful' in the Premier league means that nothing will change in
    English football. 
    
    None of the above teams play football - they are spoilers, they deny
    other teams space and possession and hope to score the odd goal from
    free kicks, corners or hopeful long balls - very little from open
    football. It's boring to watch, does nothing to encourage skill - but
    it gets results and may win the odd cup or two. Few 'footballing' teams
    can play against it, so it just encourages the rest to drop to that
    level. 
    
    Paul
    

>    behind in real footballing terms. We'll probably always be there or
>    there abouts because of our "great fighting and team spirit" (god I
>    hate that saying) but as for ever winning anything, forget it. 
    
    Danny,
    
    	whilst agreeing with your sentiments, the biggest disgrace about
    the game in Norway was that the England team did not EVEN have "great 
    fighting and team spirit".
    
    	Terry
    	

    I am almost afraid to aask this, but is the squad going to the
    States the same as that which returned to a hero's welcome yesterday ?
    
    Could someone post the squad ?
    
    Thanks,
    Wayne

    
    re:532
    
    You should have included Ireland there also.
    
    Does that prove my impartiallity ?
    
    An impartial Celt.

I saw in one of the 'quality' papers that two senior England players were leading
a players revolt against Graham Failure. Anyone heard anything about this?

Patrick.

    re -2
    
    Paul,
    
    Arsenal have scored more goals than anyone in recent years, although
    not this season. They were top scorers in 89, 91 and 92. I wouldn\t
    call that the odd goal....and in 1991 they received a good press for
    their performances.....
    
    The fact is, England could perm any 11 players from 20-25 and still do
    just as well. Look at the Republic of Ireland - as many people have
    mentioned, they do consistently better with a much smaller squad
    selected from the same pool, and they don't have better players, they
    probably aren't even as good. Are Quinn, Aldridge and Cascarino better
    than Wright, Shearer et al? No, they're not! Are Mick McCarthy and
    Kevin Moran better than Pallister, Walker, Adams et al? No they're not.
    
    It's 80% attitude, which is where you have to blame the manager.
    
    Declan
    
    Declan

    ....and I watched the Italian football on last Sunday, which featured
    Milan. It was dire stuff.
    
    Why is English soccer far more popular in Norway than the Italian
    League games?
    
    Declan

Taylor has won 6 compeditive games as manager of England.
4 were against Turkey, 1 against San Marino, and 1 against Poland.
The Football World are shaking in their boots.

�@

    
    Declan,
    
    I've seen Arsenal a few times over the last couple of years - when they
    last won the league, they had a very strong midfield and were capable
    of creating goals from any position - last season they abandoned the
    midfield and had a strong defence and one exceptional goalscorer up
    front.
    
    Ireland's record isn't really that much different to England's over the
    last couple of years - agreed the Irish always seem to give 100% -
    which England didn't against Norway, but their never going to win
    anything - basically because they've got to pick their players from the
    same league as England.
    
    
    Paul

    
    Paul,
    	Whilst I agree that the 'spoilers' in the game are not pretty to
    watch, can you remember the Argentina team in Italy and the German team
    in Mexico '86....slight spoilers and both reached the Final. In fact
    the German team of '86 was the biggest example of a team getting far
    on identifying just 1 or 2 chinks in the armour of the opposition.
    Having just spent a month in the USA and spoken to the locals on the
    game (over a beer whilst watching the Bulls v Knicks basketball) they
    couldn't be bothered watching the game because of this spoiling
    attitude and long periods where effectively nothing happens. He said
    however that he liked watching the women play football because they
    just went for it (I surreptitiously hinted that that might be because
    the USA womens team are pretty good).
    
    I hope that the 3 poists for a win in the '94 Finals will prove a
    success and whittle its way down to the qualifying groups.
    
    Cheers,
    
    	Dezzz.
    

Well, I've been read-only in this conference for a long while now. I used to
participate in the old FOOTBALL conference but I've been loathe to do so in
this one, largely through lack of time and, quite frankly, because of the
feeling of boredom aroused by so many so-called football fans who are unable to
watch a game from a neutral point-of-view but have to resort to provoking those
who support a different team from them while defending the dubious merits of
their own team. Note 129 is the example to end all examples.

I don't think any fair-minded Englishman has any problem in acknowledging
Norway's superiority the other night. I only saw highlights here in Italy (the
game was shown live on a pay-only channel) but those highlights and the reports
I've heard (plus the ample coverage in this conference) only point to one
thing: England were fortunate to lose 2-0. 

What I find extraordinary is the reaction in this note - comments ranging from
"I can't deny I'm delighted that England won't be going to U.S.A." to "You're
crap and the sooner you realise it the better". To summarize, we have (correct
me if I'm wrong):

- One Norwegian noter, duly elated about his team's victory, but gracious 
  enough to refrain from gloating.

-  A couple of England supporters with wool over their eyes who obviously are
   living on a different planet.

- Umpteen England supporters who are very sporting in defeat, *scathing* (in 
  some cases exageratedly so, IMO) about their own team and with various 
  solutions to the Great National Problem.

- Umpteen predominantly Irish/Scottish supporters, the majority of whom (and 
  there are exceptions) seem more delighted when England lose than when their 
  own teams win.  

And it's to this last group that I address the rest of my note. 

Take time off to extract all the replies in 129 and remove any written by the
Terrible Duo (we all know who they are). If you can find *any* traces of
English arrogance in the remainder, by all means start a new note with a
suitable title. I'm *convinced* that if the boot had been on the other foot
and, say, Ireland were in England's position, we'd have seen at least half the
last 50 notes set hidden. Analysing the reactions after the England-Ireland 
matches of recent years, I sincerely cannot understand what is the bee in the
Irish bonnet; maybe one day they'll reveal all. But read on.

The chief grievance seems to be with the tabloids/Jimmy Hill. Well, luckily, I
rarely get to see a British tabloid out here in Italy, but I regularly buy the
Guardian...and pro-English it most certainly ain't. You want examples? David
Lacey refers to the period when English clubs dominated the European Cup for 8 
successive years as the Dark Age of European Football. 

But this is beside the point. If I don't like Slimline salad dressing, I DON'T 
BUY IT. Instead of whimpering about the tabloids, try reading something else. 
I'm sure it's a worldwide phenomenon anyway. Out here, there's a sports 
newspaper called La Gazzetta dello Sport which is about as moderate as the 
Pravda! You'd think that the rest of the world only existed to provide target 
practice for Italy's extraordinary football machine ("...never mind if his 
name's Van Basten, *we* taught him how to play football..."). Personally, I
wouldn't want my fish-and-chips wrapped in a British tabloid and I'd like to 
think that most of the English noters here share the same opinion. 

That said, I've been pretty pissed off with Ian St. John, Pat Crerand and
Archie McPherson in recent years (thank God, I don't have to put up with them
any more...although the Italians have some more than worthy substitutes!). I
won't forget Ian St. John's antics after Uruguay knocked Scotland out of the
1986 World Cup, nor the all-round whooping after Archie Gemmill's goal against
Holland in 1978. *Very* objective commentating. 

The Irish deserve a special mention. I've always stuck up for them in the
past and admired their grittiness. But God knows, from a footballing point of
view there's precious little else to admire (sorry to differ with a good number
of the Irish contributors to this conference). If ever it was more true that
beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I'd like to think of Keane, Houghton and 
Sheridan when I talk about Big Jack's team; unfortunetely, the
images that spring to mind are Donkeys (Donkies?) Staunton, O'Leary and Quinn.
I recall sitting down to watch a video of Ireland-Italy in the U.S. Cup last
year and, yes, at the beginning of the game I had my green-tinted spectacles
on. Suddenly, I found myself fast-forwarding at random through sheer boredom. 
Well, I was in bed 40 minutes after the kick-off. Certainly, one of the most 
atrocious games of football I've ever had the displeasure to see and I won't
even mention the Italian opinion of Ireland's brand of non-football. In
retrospect, I was only too glad that the U.S. showed Ireland a thing or two
about how to play attractive football. Because for me, FOOTBALL must always be
the winner.

You can criticise England as much as you like, and much of the constructive
criticism is well-appreciated (at least by me). But I have a sneaky feeling
that those who object to the England's perseverance with ball-players such as 
Gascoigne, Barnes, Waddle, Hoddle and co. are the same people who have 
criticised Talbot, Reid, Ball, Batty and any other "workhorse" from the last 30
years who you'd care to mention. Too easy. 

I could carry on ad infinitum. Suffice to say, congratulations Norway (I'd be
considerably more "hearty" if I'd actually seen the game!) and a constructive
point to ponder on, which (strangely) no one has mentioned yet. Can England's
problem not be put down to a total inability to perform away from home?
Otherwise, how can we explain the difference in home/away performances in
recent years against Norway (who had ONE shot on target at Wembley), Turkey, 
France, Holland, Poland, Cameroun, etc.? 

Dom (who realises that the line of discussion has changed a little during the 
last rush of notes, but couldn't post this till now!)

P.S. Don't worry, Messrs. TANNER and Impartial Celt (closet Irishman?) - we
know you're not anti-English really. I'm sure you only put your racist hats on 
when you write in this conference...     

    
    re: 542
    
    An excelent note. You should contribute more often.
    I'd love to write a reply but I gotta go.
    
    An Impartial Celt. (Nothing closet about, I'm IRISH and not
    			particularly proud of our style of football)
    
    
    
    P.S  But at least we're going to the U.S 
    

    I'm Irish and I object to some of the cr*p thats being written
    against the English. It's almost like some of us are so insecure in our
    sense of worth as a sovereign and independent people that we must
    deride the English to derive any self-belief in *OUR*selves and *our*
    abilities.
    
    I don't need to slag anyone else to enhance my self-esteem. Crowing at
    another team's misfortune to this extent is , at least, hurtful and
    causes unneeded aggravation. Thats not the way of the average Irish
    Football Fan. We're party dudes, not hooligans. We've built up a damn
    good name as civilised supporters. Lets maintain that good name both on 
    the terraces *and* in the notes file.   
	
      *Tiger*

<<< Note 129.544 by ESSB::PHAYDEN "It's not how long it takes but how well you do it..." >>>
                                -< Good one ! >-
    
    >>> (Nothing closet about, I'm IRISH and not
    >>>  particularly proud of our style of football)
    
    
    
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with our style of football. In players
like Aldridge, Whelan, Houghton, Townsend, Keane, Staunton, Phelan, Irwin &
Mcgrath, we have the best footballers in Europe. Ireland can play attractive
football against any side. 

Even if they did play boring football, it doesn't matter as long as the 
result is right. Football is not about nice attractive football played on the
ground. It's about getting a result if that means kicking the ball into the
stands to keep a 1-0 lead. Where did Cloughie's nice brand of football get
him??.

Getting back to England, they were pathetic the last night. The FAT MARS BOY
didn't get a look in. It's a pity somebody didn't break his jaw again. Maybe
he would have come out of his sleep. Lee Sharpe on the left wing was worse
than useless. Well done to the Norwegians.

When Taylor looks at the plonkers in his midfield, he must be very envious of
Big Jack with midfielders like Staunton, Keane, Townsend, Houghton & Whelan
and a lethal strike force of Aldo & Quinn plus two of the best international
full backs in Irwin & Phelan.


 Look's like we are the only country out of the five local countries to be
going to the USA. I would love to see Wales get there as well.


    C U N N O 
    

    
    ref note .532 about Arsenal.
    
    About 3yrs ago I watched Arsenal play Liverpool in an English Cup match 
    at Anfield. Now for a team thats susposed to be full of spoilers they 
    played Liverpool off the park due too really entertaining and good
    football, but due to a bit off brillance by Barnes the game ended with 
    a draw. I,m not an Arsenal susporter by I do disagree that they're
    spoliers and bad for the game.
    
    I'm also glad England got beat as they've been slagging Norway for some
    time now  and they got what there display on the night deserved.
    
    Gordon.

    Amid all the online hooligans in the FOOTBALL conference,
    reply 542 was a pleasure to read.
    
    As a Norwegian, I must admit I even enjoyed every "note set hidden"
    after last week's game - interpreting them as additional proof of
    our success. ;^)  Triviawise, it should be noted that the Norwegian
    TV commentator last week is one of Norway's biggest fans of English
    football. He had a hard time accepting the fact that this time
    Norway played as excellently as England used to do, whereas England
    looked like the typical Norwegian playing from some years back.
    
    I'll refrain from further gloating until we've played Holland
    on Wednesday...
    
    Henrik 

    re -2
    
    Ill think youll find that the comment on Arsenal was that 3 yrs ago
    they were playing good football.  Its just that recently they seemed to
    have adopted a stifle the opposition and depend on the break style of
    play which is not great to watch...a la Bayern Munich in the 70's.
    
    Paul

> re: Note 129.526 by YUPPY::ASHLEYSMITH "whoops, there goes another year.."
>
>    Anyone here Trevor Brookings comments when Les Ferdinand missed
>    England's only real "chance" early in the 2nd half. 
>    
>    "finishing is not his strong point"
>    
>    England's centre forward can't finish. Frightening isn't it.

	Shows what Brooking knows ! Players like Sherringham, and
	Ferdinand 'finish' for their club sides. The reason they are
	failing in this respect, for their country, is due to lack
	of decent balls from midfield. However, in my opinion you need
	forwards that can fight for a ball as well as finish, not the
	'standing around on the off chance that the ball might come along'
	beloved of certain England forwards who will remain nameless.

		p1
	

    
>>    Thought I'd balance the England-bashing in here by putting in some
>>    Norway-bashing :-)
>
>     You are Swedish, aren't you ?
    
    Correct.
    
>     So the fact that we have these results:
>
>	Norway - Holland	2-1
>	England - Norway	1-1
>	Norway - England	2-0
>	Norway - Turkey		3-1
>	Norway - San Marino    10-0
>	San Marino - Norway	0-4
>
>	22 scored - 3 behind Thorstvedt
>
>     makes us a 3rd rate team ? So what is a 1st or a 2nd rate team ?

    
    It's simply too early for the hype. Show some realistic expectations,
    don't fly so high and maybe it won't hurt so much when you fall down.
    
    The list above shows very well what I'm trying to say. You've played
    minnows (San Marino, Turkey), has-beens (England) and admittedly got one
    good result (Holland). You still have to meet the two main competitors
    of the group, Holland and Poland, away from home. Get results there and
    I'll change my mind.
    
    cheers,
    
    	Stefan

    >I'm Irish and I object to some of the cr*p thats being written against the 
    >English. It's almost like some of us are so insecure in our sense of worth 
    >as a sovereign and independent people that we must deride the English to 
    >derive any self-belief in *OUR*selves and *our* abilities. 
      
    Tiger, I certainly didn't have any of *your* notes in mind when I
    criticised the general nature of the Irish/Scottish entries in 129! On
    the contrary, you've been more constructive in your criticism than the
    vast majority of the English noters.
    
    As for the Irish fans, I've yet to hear a bad word about them. Contrast
    that with our shower. The only relief on Wednesday night came from the
    news that nearly all the arrests had been made BEFORE the match -
    there's nothing worse than losing and then being classed as poor
    losers.
    
    I can remember going to see Belgium v England in Bologna during WC90.
    It probably wasn't a vintage performance by the England fans but they
    still managed to make a nuisance of themselves. Fortunately, I had no
    problem blending in with the locals and I'd bought my ticket in Milan
    anyway, so I was able to watch the game with a group of Belgians, a
    couple of Italians and a couple of the more civilised England
    supporters. 
    
    Re. what needs to be done with English football, I can't agree with
    those who think a total shakeup is necessary, although I wouldn't mind
    seeing a few changes on the administrative side. I don't see any
    problem with the sort of players who are coming out of our system -
    although we have capped a few players in the last couple of years who I
    wouldn't personally consider international quality (Sinton, Curle,
    Merson, perhaps one or two others). Holland, Germany, Italy and Brazil
    all have their equivalents of Batty and Palmer - don't tell me that
    Wouters, Reuter, Dunga and Dino Baggio are thoroughbreds! 
    
    Anyway, there's still room for optimism. Holland will be delighted with
    that last result if only because it's taken the spotlight off their own
    team who have been nothing less than appalling since EC92. I'd
    sincerely like to know from Mr. Tanner exactly what he finds
    entertaining about the current Dutch team, Bergkamp apart.
    
    Dom
    

    RE: alot-further-back-but-I-can't-remember-the-number ..
    
    If Alex Ferguson (he from swoon! ManU) were to manage England, not
    only would he have led a Scottish and England club side to winning
    their respecive leagues, but he would also have led the National
    teams (not saying where though).   Remember - he was Scotland
    manager for WC86 ..
    
    Ray

    Also - is the Holland-Norway match being shown on English TV ??
    
    Thanks - Ray

I read on CEEFAX this morning that Paul Ince is to Captain England in the U.S.

Perhaps there is hope after all...

Taylor says the Norway game showed how much we miss Ince, and I think he's right.
We would have wasted Norway if we'd had Ince. 8-) Yeah, right.

On Sunday I read an article in the Observer in which John Fashanu claimed that he
was absolutely that England would have a black Captain before too long, and that
it would probably be Paul Ince. Cor, is he a mindreader or what?

Mike

 Re Dom....

    Dom don't forget that Holland haven't fielded their full team since Euro 92.
In fact in the game against Poland most of them were missing. Most Knowledgeable
football fans would agree with me that Van Basten is one of the most deadly
strikers around at the moment. He just returned a month ago after been out for
three months. Do you honestly believe that Palmer or Batty would get on the
English team if Rijkaard was English??? If you believe that then England may end
up getting a "wild card" for the States because of some war or whatever.....

   You also compared Dino Baggio to the likes of Batty and Palmer, I hope he 
doesn't find that out!!!! He alone scored three goals for Juve against Dortmund
in the UEFA cup final, and finished second highest scorer for Juve in the whole
competition after his namesake Roberto.

   When Holland field their full strength team with the above mentioned and also
Koemann, and probably Roy, Winter, and Wittschke then we should see one of the
best footballing teams in action again. Another aspect missing from the Holland
team is motivation, something Iam sure Cruyff would sort out....  

   Ok Dom I hope this satisfies your queries.....

                                                         -dave-

P.s Ton or any other Dutch fan out there, what is the probable lineup for 
    tomorrow nights big match?????

    re: .556
    
    Dave,
    
    >Dom don't forget that Holland haven't fielded their full team since Euro 
    >92.
    
    Nor have England. (Pearce, Shearer, Gascoigne, Ince, Wright, Dorigo,
    Ferdinand et al have all missed matches...oops, I forgot - the English
    aren't allowed to make excuses, are they?)
    
    >Most Knowledgeable football fans would agree with me that Van Basten is
    >one of the most deadly strikers around at the moment. He just returned
    >a month ago after been out for three months.
    
    Couldn't agree more, but he'll now be undergoing another operation on
    his ankle and it remains to be seen whether he ever *fully* recovers.
    Certainly, he wasn't the player of old in the European Cup final.
    
    >Do you honestly believe that Palmer or Batty would get on the English team
    >if Rijkaard was English??? 
    
    I didn't compare them with Rijkaard; I compared them (as "workhorses")
    with Wouters. And yes, I think Batty is better than Wouters in most
    departments, with the exception of shooting...and elbowing. As for 
    Rijkaard, I haven't seen him play three good games this year here in Italy.
    Great player 2 years ago; at Wembley, he was a ghost. Gullit wasn't even 
    that. 
    
   >You also compared Dino Baggio to the likes of Batty and Palmer, I hope he 
   >doesn't find that out!!!! He alone scored three goals for Juve against 
    >Dortmund in the UEFA cup final, and finished second highest scorer for 
    >Juve in the whole competition after his namesake Roberto.
    
    Granted football's all about scoring, but I do recall that a couple of
    years back, Man Utd's top scorer (or second top) on the way to winning
    the European Cup Winners' Cup was Steve Bruce. Enough said? I recently
    saw Dino Baggio struggle for Italy against Switzerland before being
    sent off for an outrageous tackle.
    
   >When Holland field their full strength team with the above mentioned and 
    >also Koemann, and probably Roy, Winter, and Wittschke then we should see 
    >one of the best footballing teams in action again. Another aspect missing 
    >from the Holland team is motivation, something Iam sure Cruyff would sort 
    >out....  
       
    Well, count Roy out for a start; the Dutch manager has said he
    considers him to be too "lilly-livered" for international football.
    Winter? Excellent player? Koemann? Great going forward, disastrous in
    defence. Wittschke? Mediocrity City, Arizona!
    
    As I said, Gullit feels he can't produce the goods at international
    level any more (Keown didn't give him a kick at Wembley) and has decided to
    retire from international football. Note that Gullit, Rijkaard and Van
    Basten have all said at various times that playing for Holland under 
    Advocaat (sp?) is *not* a joyful experience and do not like the way
    the team is playing. 
    
    And, if you recall, my original query was about your saying that
    Holland play spectacular football. Well, they certainly used to...
    
    Dom
    
    P.S. None of which will stop you being delighted if Holland win
    tomorrow - but I doubt if champagne football's got anything to do with
    it.
                             

	Is the Norway Holland game Live on any English TV Station??
	If not will there be highlights

Thanks
	Mick

    
> ...oops, I forgot - the English aren't allowed to make excuses, are they?
    
    What do you mean ? The English excuse for a manager has chosen a whole
    team of excuses as players ! (Well almost)
    
    Come on Ye Orange's !
    
    An Impartial Celt.

    
    The best bet for seeing the game might be for anyone with a Satellite
    dish and RTL-4 which is on Astra (transponder 13). They have shown all
    of Holland's previous matches.
    Looks like tonight will be busy in front of the box
    6:00	Latvia v Ireland
    8:00 	Holland v Norway
    12:00	US v England....
    
    Lucky its a day's holiday tomorrow here in Germany...
     
    Regards,
    
    Dezzz.

this is the most likely line-up for tonight (not my line-up mind you)


                        de Goey


van Gobbel              Koeman               de Boer

			Rijkaard


Jonk			Bergkamp	     Wouters


Overmars		Bosman		     Blinker


I personally would have played van Vossen and Bergkamp up front,
Jonk in the middle of midfield, Wouters on the right en Witschge
on the left and would certainly not have played van Gobbel at
left back but preferred de Wolf.

subs:

Snelders, van Vossen, Winter, Witschge, de Wolf

VAn BAsten is again out with the same ankle injury and will have an operation 
again, hope he won't follow Gullit :-((

When Holland qualifies for the US, Cruijff wil take over from Advocaat.

I've got a ticket for tonight (the best seats for free and even tickets for
the party after the game, just a matter of having the right connections I guess)
, so I'll be off early today.


T_

    
>I've got a ticket for tonight (the best seats for free and even tickets for
>the party after the game, just a matter of having the right connections I guess)
>, so I'll be off early today.
    
 	You lucky lucky basta'd ! ( Copywrite 'Life of Brian')
    
    An Impartial Celt.

ITV is showing 'football' tonight at 2240. Unfortunately, it looks as if 
they're going to concentrate on USA v England (KO 2300), but we might get 5 
mins each of the Irish and Dutch/Norwegian games before it. 

I am an English supporter but I'd rather see a real game . . .

grahame

    
    	Yup, England's latest debacle will be screened I think live,
    	whereas the majority of football followers would rather see
    	a game that matters.
    
    	Andy.

Nah. I'd rather watch England even if they are lousy.

Anything else is just being a fair-weather fan (or exhibiting common sense).

I think we'll win this one 3-0, with people like Batty being especially important
in kicking the "not especially physical" Americans off the ball.

There are no Italian-based types playing, so expect it to be fast and physical 
on our part: Taylor to return to the tactics that did him so well at Lincoln, 
Watford, and Villa.

And if we don't win.... I'll eat my hat. 8-)

Again.

Mike

    Aldo has scored after 15 mins
    
    Latvia 0-1 Ireland.

	For what it is worth....

	Holland 0 - 0 Norway

				.Andre.

    > For what it is worth....
    >
    > Holland 0 - 0 Norway
    
    To Norway, it's worth a lot! :^) Especially since Holland
    outplayed us completely in the first half. This was a different
    ballgame altogether, after the victory over a weak English team.
    
    I feel sorry for the Dutch, though, who came as close to scoring
    as you'll ever do. Several times. A cold comfort may be that Norway 
    at least didn't get a lucky goal like the one at Wembley. The result is
    unfair as it is. So the one point is celebrated as a victory here.
    
    Henrik 

rep -1

Henrik,

it was also celebrated as a victory by the Norway supporters who followed the
team to Holland. The Dutch supporter incl myself were totally guttered, we
indeed outplay the Norwegians the first half and Bosman should at least scored
two goals but failed in front of an open goal.

The second half was a damn shame for the Dutch and the only good players then
where van Gobbel, Rijkaard and Overmars.

I got home quite late 'cause the beer was free in the place we were after the
game (it's always nice to have contacts with big sponsors :-))) and I must admit
I was quite p*ssed too :-))

Holland now has to win their remaining three matches wich will be very difficult
but if they keep playing the way they did yesterday they don't deserve to go to
the US of A.

T_

    Mike,
           Do you want salt for your HAT
    
    USA  2  0  England