Conference trucks::football;1

    
    	Unfortunately for you Irish guys the WC seedings seem to be only
    	based on WC achievements, which leaves Ireland as outsiders, with
    	only the one appearance in the final stages. However, another
    	successful campaign is likely to see you improve in FIFAs eyes.
    
    	Sides like our good selves, the Spanish, Russia, will get 1 or 2
    	seeds due to past qualifications and *not* current ability.
    
    	It will make Ireland a dangerous "floater", one side all the top
    	seeds will do well to avoid. Prove the '90 campaign wasn't a flash
    	in the pan and Ireland will grow in World stature - as I said, Euro
    	success doesn't seem to matter to FIFA. 
    
    	Good luck in the draw. I certainly hope we can avoid you!
    
    	Andy.

    I thought the seeds mechanism was based on points given to each country 
    for each match played during the last 3 world cups.
    
    Thierry

The rankings are based on the two latest major competitions. For Europe that is 
WC-qualification for Italy, WC in Italy and EC-qualification for Sweden. For 
other parts of the world it's the same, WC-qualification and f.ex. Asian Cup,
South American Cup and African Cup. They base the ranking on numeber of wins,
draws and losses, and how far the qualified in those major competitions. But
there will of course be a lot of lobbying, just as Gary mentioned.

Europe have 12 slots in the next WC (Germany already qualifiead as World 
Champions). Currently there are 35 members in UEFA. Take away Germany and add
Israel, there are at least 35 countries to qualify for those 12 slots. 
I spoke to a friend at the Swedish Football Association, and he told me that 
it's most unlikely to form groups with 7 teams. That will mean 12 qualifying 
games, and that's too many.

UEFA and FIFA have some political questions to deal with, before they can form
the qualifying groups. UEFA and FIFA will have meetings on the 4th and 6th of
December to decide weather the Baltic states will be members of those orghani-
sations. USSR has declared that they weill participate in the next olympics as
a united nation, and the will do so in Sweden next summer also. That's a 
interesting question. If the Baltic states will participate in the qualifi-
cations for WC-1994, can USSR use those Baltic players in Euro-92 in Sweden? 
(probably not). The seedings will be official on the 7th of December.
  
The Yugoslavia sitation is even more political. As long as Yugoslavia is a 
member of the United Nation, they are members of UEFA and FIFA. Yugoslavia 
have to be disolved as a country before Serbia, Croatia and the other provinses
can be members. No provinse can take Yugoslavias place in Euro-92, and 
Yugolsavia will probably be drawn in the WC-qualifications. If Yugoslavia
will be disolved during the WC-qualifications, the country will simply be
disqualified. The Earliest we can se the Yugoslavian provinses in a 
qualification will be for Euro-96.

Israel is an individual FIFA member who is geographically associated with 
Asia, but not a member of the Asian Football Association.

Let's look at the European qualifiacion for WC. With 35 countries, i think there
will be 5 groups with 6 teams and 1 group with 5 teams. The two best qualify.
With 38 countries it's a bit more difficult. Perhaps there will be 9 groups. 7
groups with 4 teams, and 2 groups with 5 teams. the group-winner qualify, and
the 3 best second-placed teams take the remaining 3 slots.

With 9 groups, i think that Ireland definatelly will be a #1 seeded team along 
with Italy, England, Holland, Belgium, USSR, Spain, France and Yugoslavia. With
6 groups i beleive the #1 ranked teams are Italy, England, Belgium, Holland,
USSR and Spain or France.

My wish for a qualification group is Sweden, Ireland, Norway, Luxembourg and 
Belgium. That would make travelling (and qualification?) quite easy.

Mats

    
    
    If it goes of how many times a team has been in the WC and in recent EC
    Championships, then surely Scotland may be seeded.?!!
    
    They, for the last x number of times, qualified for the WC, alright
    they didn't do anything when they got there, and also now qualifying
    for the EC in Sweden next year must mean something. 
    
    Mac
                                                 

    
    Re .3, Mats it may seem logical to seed countries on performance in
    recent world cups and European championships however that means Ireland
    would move ahead of France and Spain in the rankings.  Thus the 86
    World Cup will have to be included and possibily even the 1982.
    Northern Ireland qualified in 82 & 86 and only merited a 3rd seed in
    the 1990 qualifiers.
    
    Re Scotland, they should get a second seed.
    
    The Baltics will be in the draw as apparently their membership of FIFA
    was never revoked in 1940.  Hence they do not have to rejoin.  The
    report I read claimed there would be 4 groups of 6 teams and 2 of 7
    with the top 2 qualifying.  This will generate more revenue for the
    competing countries.
    
    Gary.

    
I put down all the countries on a paper an tried to make a personal seeding,
and i found out that it wasn't so easy as i thought. And what's even worse, i
can only find 34 UEFA-members. Concidering other opinions and looking at the
rescent WC and Euro-qualification results, my seeding is;

Ranked #1	    #2		   #3		   #4		   #5

1. England�	Scotland�	Denmark		Poland		Bulgaria
2. Italy�	Czechoslov.�	Switzerland	Greece		Iceland
3. USSR�	France�		Portugal	Norway		Malta
4. Holland�	Roumania�	Wales		N.Ireland	Luxembourg
5. Ireland�	Yugoslavia�	Sweden�		Hungary		Albania
6. Spain�	Belgium�	Austria�	(Israel)	Cyprus
7.								Turkey
8.								Finland
9.								San Marino
10.								Faroe Islands

Germany WC-Champions.

This is 35 countries, exclude Israel and there's only 34 countries. Who have
i forgot? Another question, is San Marino and the Faroe Islands members of
FIFA? I thought that the only where UEFA-members. I would put Latvia, Estonia
and Lithuania among the #5 seeded countries. Any disagreements?

Mats

P.S.	� = Qualified for WC-90 and Euro-92
	� = Qualified for WC-90
	� = Qualified for Euro-92
 

    
    
    You forgot that Scotland have qualified for EURO '92.
    
    
    John

    
    	Mats, you forgot Albania..
    	
    	Andy.

    
    	s**t, no you didn't....sorry 8-}

To be honest, I feel that a fair seeding system should give greater weight
to more recent success, since it's more likely to reflect current strength.
Any ranking system that takes into account games more than 6 years ago seems
absurd--teams go through great change in that kind of period.

Based on this thinking then and a non-trivial amount of personal bias, 
I would argue that the top 6 teams in Europe are these (in this order)...

1. France--has seemed devastating of late
2. USSR--floundered in the WC, but performed well in the qualifiers
3. Holland--seems to have hit its stride recently, after a period of mediocrity
4. Germany--world champions, dull of late, but still producing.
5. England--solid team, gets results when it needs them.
6. Italy--team in transition. Did well in WC but present team hard to estimate

And then these....
Spain--always seems close to being a great side, but never quite gets it all...
Ireland--good team, needs to turn its domination of games into wins though
Belgium--always a threat to any team.  Has moments of brilliance

And then....
Rumania, Jugoslavia, Scotland, Czechoslovakia, Portugal.......

And contrary to Mats, I can't fathom ranking Austria above Poland.

F.

    
    Apologies to my scottish friends, of course you qualified for Sweden.
    And Italy did not. My mistake.
    
    There is some friendly's witch will count as well. Italy never
    qualified for WC-90. They did tremendouselly well there earning a
    bronze medal, but after that they have been doing very poor. Is that
    really enough to be a #1 seed? Sweden qualified for WC-90 (and did very
    bad), but we won our qualifying group over England. After that
    there's only been friendlys, with good statistics. Should we only be
    a #3 seed, or should it be higher? 
    
    WC-90 was for a three week period, so Italys ranking must be based on
    their friendly's before WC. A bad or a good form in summer 1990 shouldn't 
    decide waeather a team is ranked high or low.
    
    Mats

    
    	It's difficult to find a "fair" way of measuring these teams when
    	it comes to seeding them, for instance consider this:
    
     	France are highly rated at the moment. Yet they failed to
    	qualify for Italia '90. They may win the Euro in Sweden next year, 
    	but at the moment they are something of an unknown...
    
    	Russia? They will get a favourable seeding but will disappoint...
    	
    	England? Struggling to move out of their current transitional
    	phase. Past glories clouding reality. I expect we'll get a seeding
    	for finishing fourth last time, but we're *not* the fourth-best
    	nation in the world by a long shot..
    
    	Italy? Traditionaly strong but seemingly now in total disarray. 
    	Amazingly failed to make Sweden '92..
    
    	Holland are still powerful, and have been consistantly so for a
    	number of years. Disappointing in Italy '90 but deserve to be 
    	classed second best inEurope behind
    
    	Germany - whatever you say about them they are at least a class 
    	above most of the opposition in Europe at the moment, excepting
    	perhaps Holland and France.
    
    	Ireland are improving from a curiously weak tradition, and are
    	capable of giving anyone a hard time. 
    
    	Then there's the "middle ground" - no offence intended to anyone..
    	like Austria, Sweden, Portugal, Belgium, Denmark, all capable of 
    	playing a good style and can beat Europe's best on their day.
    
    	A whole clutch of East European sides, led by Yugoslavia, shine
    	brightly and fade again so rapidly they're impossible to measure.
    	
    	So how can you seed this lot? Being fair is very difficult. We all
    	have our preferences and what we'd *like* to happen, but in all
    	honesty it doesn't make much difference 'cause by the time the
    	groups start teams' fortunes will have changed so much anyway, with
    	the exception of a few who are consistantly strong.
                
    	Oh, well....
    
    	Andy.
    

Some small remarks.The seeding depends only on WC results.This means that
even big football nations are lower ranked (e.g. Holland).Here comes my
ranking:

Ranked #1	    #2		   #3		   #4		   #5

1. Italy 	Holland 	Denmark		Portugal	(Israel)		
2. Belgium	France 	   	Austria		Bulgaria 	Norway			
3. Spain        Russia		Sweden 		Switzerland 	Finland	
4. Ireland 	Roumania	Poland 		Wales		Iceland	
5. England 	Scotland	N.Ireland	Greece		Luxembourg	
6. Yugoslavia	Czechoslov.	Hungary		Turkey 		Cyprus
7.								Albania
8.								Malta
9.								San Marino
10.								Faroe Islands

Germany WC-Champions.

If for any reason Yugoslavia drops out,and any Yougoslavian republik replaces 
them all the top seeds of each ranking will move up one place.
As you can see some countries are low seeded. This means also that the draw 
will be extremely interesting,because some though groups can be created.
As a Belgian,I hope we wont like to have a draw with Holland,Denmark,Bulgaria
and Norway.

Patrick
 

    How on earth do Ireland become first seed having only qualified for one
    world cup ?

    
    I totally agree with the last note.
    
    Ireland qualified for the 1 World Cup and 1 European Championship. 
    How can they possibly be seeded higher than Scotland who have qualified 
    for 5 World Cups (the last 5) and the present European Championships ?
    
    ...Derek 

    
    HUNGARY was the TOP-Team in the 50s.
    DENMARK was top in the 80s.
    
    I wouldn't take into account merits that can not possibly say anything
    about the team's current strength.
    
    Heiko
    	
    

    
    Using a combination of past performance and present form my seedings
    would be....
    
    #1           #2              #3           #4         #5
    
    Ussr         Spain           Denmark      Greece     Iceland
    England      Ireland         Switzerland  Wales      Malta
    France       Scotland        Portugal     N.Ireland  Luxembourg
    Italy        Belgium         Sweden       Hungary    Albania
    Yugoslavia   Czechoslovakia  Austria      Norway     Cyprus
    Holland      Roumania        Poland       Bulgaria   Turkey
                                                         Finland
                                                         San Marino
                                                         Faroe Islands
                                                         Israel
    
   ...Derek

Re .-1

	Can Germany get a game ??

      Re -1
    
>>               <<< Note 122.18 by UNTADI::BIRSE "C'mon ra 'D'" >>>
>>                             -< Deutschland..... >-
>>
>> Re .-1
>>
>>	Can Germany get a game ??
    
    NO !! 
    

    ....because they don't have to qualify.

    ref: .17
    
    >>using a combination of past performance and present form.....
    
    I'm curious as to what formula you applied to seed Scotland
    #2. It certainly can't have anything to do with past performances
    and Sweden is months away.
    
    JC

I'm sorry, I think I was confused with Northern Ireland who made a 
good WC 86.In that case Ireland will come in the third group and the 
top seeded countries of the second and third group are moving up.

Patrick

    
    re. 20
    
    Scotland have qualified for the last 5 World Cups and have also
    qualified for the present European Championships. That record is
    surely good enough for Scotland to be seeded #2. How many other
    countries can boast this record ?
    
    I agree that their performances during the final stages of World Cups
    has been very poor but in actual qualification we have an excellent
    record.
           
    ...Derek                                         
    

    Here are the top seedings:
    
    	1. England
    	2. Italy
    	   Belgium
    	4. Spain
        5. Russia
    	6. France
    	7. Yugoslavia
    
    34 countries are subscribed. How they will setup the groups is not
    known yet.
    
    Patrick

    Sorry, mistake. 38 countries are subscribed

    
    A report in this mornings paper said the seedings would be sorted out
    using a points system based on results in the last two World Cups.
    This is speculation and hasn't been confirmed yet.
    
    The article also said there would be a record 38 euro teams which
    would include newly independent Latvia and Estonia. Together with
    San Marino and Liechtenstein they may be required to play off in a
    preliminary group reducing the European qualifiers to 36.
    
    If this were the case there would be 6 groups of 6 with the top 2
    qualifying from each group. Europe's final total would be 13,
    including the holders Germany.
    
    ...Derek
                                                           

According to the Austrian newspaper "Neue Kronen Zeitung", this is the rankings 
for the drawing in New York next sunday. It's based on the three latest WC-
qualification and finals.

Ranked

   #1	     #2		  #3	     #4		   #5		#6

1. Italy     Poland	  Hungary    Portugal      Albania      Malta
2. England   Yugoslavia	  Ireland    Sweden	   Turkey       Luxembourg
3. Belgium   Czechoslov.  Denmark    Switzerland   Finland      Cyprus
4. Spain     Austria	  Holland    Greece	   Iceland      San Marino
5. USSR	     Scotland	  Roumania   Wales	   Faroe Isl.   Estonia
6. France    N.Ireland	  Bulgaria   Norway	   Israel       Latvia
7.								Lithuania
8.								Liechtenstein

Germany WC-Champions.

This contains a few surprises for me, like

- Austria ranked #2 (!).

- Northern Ireland ranked higher than Holland, Republic of Ireland and Portugal.

The 38 contries will be drawed in to six groups, four group with six teams, 
and two groups with seven, just as Gary mentioned. The two best in each group
qualify for USA.

A dream draw for Swedem must be Belgium, Austria, Bulgaria, Faroe Islands and
San Marino. A nightmare would be Italy, Scotland, Holland, Turkey and one of
the Baltic countries. It would be nice to have Ireland in the same group though.

And finally, think of a group with England, Northern Ireland, Republic of
Ireland, Wales, Faroe Islands and Luxembourg. Easy travelling, but not what 
you Britts want, or...?

Mats

    
    
    Too much weight given too further back.  Having Holland ranked
    3rd given their current strength is sheer madness.
    
    F.
    

    It's true that Holland third looks strange to me (even taking their
    last 12 years results) however this may be very bad news for the group
    where they end up.
    Imagine something like :
    
    Italy - Czechoslov. - Holland - Portugal - Iceland - Malta
    
    ???
    
    Thierry

    I can't imagine France being seeded - They failed to qualify for the
    last World Cup and the Euro Championship don't count. Or is finishing 4th
    and 3rd in the 1982 and 1986 editions enough to be seeded?
    
    I don't think Platini and al. care a bit about seedings anyway.
    Unseeded France will be bad news for any team in any group. France's
    strength is in believing they can beat anybody, a nice change.
    
    �JF?

    
    >I can't imagine France being seeded - They failed to qualify for the
    >last World Cup and the Euro Championship don't count. Or is finishing
    4th
    >and 3rd in the 1982 and 1986 editions enough to be seeded?
    
    Generally it's the last 2 major tournaments that decide (in this case
    Italia 90 and Germany 88) however FIFA seed who they want and France
    have a  lot of influence.  Therefore the 86 World Cup will probably be
    included.  Now the problem with that is that it could exclude Holland.
    
    France should qualify anyway.  On current form they look the best team
    in Europe by a long way.  They deserve to be seeded on current
    footballing ability but it would be a disgrace if FIFA resort to using
    the 86 and 82 World Cups to seed teams.  Very few players from 1982 are
    still playing International football.  All sides have changed
    dramatically.
    
    Gary.

    
    	re .30..
    
    	That's exactly right Gary...the best teams will win through pretty
    	much regardless of how they are seeded. The seeding is really only
    	a "political" move to ensure Italy and Germany don't get grouped
    	together, which wouldn't matter since they could both qualify
    	anyway..
    
    	I'd rather see England draw Belgium than either Ireland or Holland,
    	and that's no disrespect intended towards Belgium. Seedings are 
    	naturally based on past achievements not current form.
    
    	Andy.
             

>>And finally, think of a group with England, Northern Ireland, Republic of
>>Ireland, Wales, Faroe Islands and Luxembourg. Easy travelling, but not what 
>>you Britts want, or...?

Well, the chances of all British/Irish teams avoiding each other are about
8-1 against.

    The sad thing about the seeding is that it is all about POLITICS. First
    part of their deliberations will be to decide which teams they want
    seeded. When they have decided on this, they will then come up with a
    formula to back the seedings they have decided (even if it mean Euro +
    3 world cups). Those teams with no politcal clout can forget being
    seeded on current form (IRELAND). My prediction is Ireland will be
    seeded 3, but on current form it dosent matter if its 5, as it will
    be the teams that are drawn with us that will do the worrying. 
    
    Steve
    

Am I correct in saying that Ireland have been handed a 2nd seeding in the world 
cup European qualifying competition. I think I heard it over on the radio while I
was in the process of waking up this morning.


                             James. 

    
    According to teletext we're seeded no higher than 3rd.
    
    The second seeds include European giants such as Austria and Northern
    Ireland.  Northern Ireland have moved up in the rankings since the draw
    for the 1990 qualifiers where they were ranked 3rd.  I wonder was it
    their performances in Seville or Dublin or maybe that brilliant 1-1
    draw with Faroe Islands last May. 
    
    Scotland, Yugo, Poland and Czech complete the 2nd seedings.
    
    Needless to say the number 1 seeds are Eng, Ita, Fra, Soviets, Belgium
    and Spain. 
    
    I can only assume they didn't have the nerve to put us any lower than
    3rd.  Still it will work out well as we'll avoid the other European
    minnows such as Holland and Denmark.
    
    Gary.

    
    Re -1, It's worse than I thought.  We've been ranked FOURTH.  FIFA
    consider us among the 19th-24th best sides in Europe.  Have we really
    dropped that much since we finished in the top 8 in the world last
    year?  We haven't lost a match since. 
    
    I wonder how these guys dare to show their faces in public.  
    
    The only way we'll get a decent seeding in 1998 is if we win the
    tournament in the U.S.
    
    Gary.

    
    just thought id lend my support to your cause...
    Ireland only ranked 4th is a disgrace.
    it should go on current form not past form, and if past form must
    be considered then at least present form should be taken into account.
    Ian.
     

What time is this draw on Sunday......

when will we know???

    
    Apparently the Irish Independent still reckons we'll be seeded second. 
    The Times claims we'll be seeded 4th.  The Indo reckons FIFA mixed up
    Northern Ireland and the Republic.  Apparently Holland and Poland are
    vying for a second seed (this was awarded to Poland on Teletext last
    night).  The Dutch are currently far superior to the Poles but the
    Poles finished th in 1982 when Holland failed to qualify so they may
    sneak it.
    
    
    Leaving Ireland out of it (although a second seed would be
    satisfactory) the system is still totally unjust.  5 of the Italia 90
    quarter finalists are in the draw and only the 2 winners England and
    Italy get a number 1 spot.  Belgium and France who didn't even qualify
    for Euro 88 or Italia 90 are seeded number 1 while spain who didn't
    perform as well as Ireland in the last 2 major tournaments are also
    seeded 1.  As for Austria's number 2 seeding well where does that leave
    the Faroes?
    
    Gary.

    
    The draw is at 5.30pm or 6pm Irish time and will be televised live.
    
    Gary.

    Gary,
    
    I just returned from the kitchen here in Park House taking (another)
    illicit coffee break. I browsed over the Irish Times...and its the
    North Of Ireland they reckon will be fourth seeded. The outlook
    is that we will be placed second seeds along with Scotland, Czech,
    Romania Austria and a few others.
    
    The criteria FIFA are apparently using is for the last three W.C.
    1990, 1986 and 1982...however, they give a sliding scale value on
    participation in these three competitions. i.e. 1990 placings
    multiplied by a factor of 3, 1986 by 2, 1982 by 1.
    
    Thus our (Rep. Ireland) quarter final slot in 1990 gives us higher
    marks thean the Norths two 1982 and 1986 appearances.
    
    The other criteria they may use is on appearances in the last two
    major championships..i.e EURO88 and ITALIA90...in this case also
    the Republic score highly.
    
    I dont honestly think they could place us fourth...could they?????????
    
    *Tiger*

    
    What did the Brittish newspapers have to say about Swedish ranking?
    
    Mats
    
    BTW, in previous notes there's been comments that rankings doesn't
    matter. Thats bull, of course they do!! Beeing ranked #1 or #2 makes a
    much easier way to the US, avoiding the real best teams in Europe. And
    most important of all; A low, unfair ranking gives the opportunity to
    have something to blame on when the qualification fails...;-)
    

    -1
       Avoiding the best teams by being seeded 1 or 2 will not happen.
       What you are avoiding are the best teams of YESTERDAY and by being
       seeded 3 or 4 could help to avoid the current best teams eg Holland.
    
    Regards,
             Stephen
    

    The best teams of TODAY, can easily be the best teams of YESTERDAY in
    August-September when the qualification starts. Thats the point of
    rankings, looking on a longer period (not too long, though). There are
    some teams that are traditionally strong all the time, and avoiding
    them will make things easier. Only god knows about Hollands strengh
    next autumn.
    
    Mats

    
    Tiger, The Irish Times that I have (special edition) has  a large
    banner headline on page 19 "Republic may still be left in fourth
    flight."  Peter Byrne goes on to explain that we will likely be seeded
    4th.  Obviously we get an earlier edition in Galway.
    
    Sweden are seeded 3rd on this rankings.  The times also rank Holland
    second although Teletext ranked them 3rd last night.  As I mentioned
    earlier the Indo reckons FIFA mixed us up with NI (we normally get
    mixed up with Iceland) and we'll be seeded second.  It does seem crazy
    that Northern Ireland have moved uop in the rankings since 4 years ago
    but a certain Mr Harry Cavan is Vice President of FIFA so NI do have a
    lot more political clout.
    
    Romania who lost out to us (albeit on penalties) and who failed to
    qualify in 82 & 86 are seeded 3rd so maybe the Indo are correct.  I
    hope so.
    
    If the seeding system was fair position would be very very important. 
    Because of the current farce it is less important but still it does
    matter.  It's all down to luck on Sunday.  Obviously we want Belgium,
    Spain or England as a number 1 seed, NI or Austria if we're not second,
    Hungary, Portugal or Sweden from the 3rd rankings and after that it
    doesn't matter too much although Switzerland, Wales and Bulgaria need to be
    avoided if possible.
    
    Gary.

    Gary,
    
    It must have been late last nights Irish Times you got...cos the
    one I have definitely says that according to FIFA we will be a 
    second seed with N.I fourth....the article went on to say that
    there may be hard feelings between the IFA (NI) and the FAI
    (Republic).
    
    Lets hope to blazes we miss the English. we're sick of each other.
    Lets hope for Belgium, San Marino, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg,
    The Faroes.....am I being too optimistic?????
    
    *Tiger*

With four remaining games of the Euro-92 qualification, this is the facts of
the seven groups compared together. This should indicate current strength
(Sweden excluded). Really something to base the rankings on...

     Team	       	P  W  D  L	   GD	   +/-      Pts.      Av. p/game

 1. *France		8  8  0  0	20 -  6	   + 14     16          2.00
 2. *Yugoslavia		8  7  0  1	24 -  4	   + 20     14		1.75
 3. *Holland		8  6  1  1	17 -  2	   + 15     13	        1.63
 4.  Denmark		8  6  1  1	18 -  7    + 11     13		1.63
 5. *USSR		8  5  3  0      13 -  2	   + 11     13		1.63
 6.  Germany		5  4  0  1	 9 -  4    +  5      8	       (1.60)
 7. *England		6  3  3  0	 7 -  3	   +  4      9		1.50
 8.  Wales		6  4  1  1       8 -  6	   +  2      9		1.50
 9. *Scotland		8  4  3  1	14 -  7    +  7     11		1.38
10.  Portugal		8  5  1  2	11 -  4	   +  7     11		1.38
11.  Switzerland	8  4  2  2	19 -  7    + 11     10		1.25
12.  Romania		8  4  2  2	13 -  7	   +  6     10		1.25
13.  Czechoslovakia  	8  5  0  3	12 -  9    +  3     10		1.25
14.  Ireland		6  2  4  0      13 -  6	   +  8      8          1.33
15.  Poland		6  2  3  1	 8 -  6	   +  2      7		1.17
16.  Italy		7  2  4  1      10 -  5	   +  5      8	       (1.14)
17.  Bulgaria		8  3  3  2	15 -  8    +  7      9		1.13
18.  Norway		8  3  3  2	 9 -  5    +  4      9		1.13
19.  Greece		7  3  1  3	10 -  8    +  2      7	       (1.00)
20.  Hungary            8  2  4  2      10 -  9    +  1      8		1.00
21.  N. Ireland		8  2  3  3	11 - 11       0      7		0.88
22.  Spain		7  3  0  4	17 - 12    +  5      6	       (0.86)
23.  Belgium		6  2  1  3	 7 -  6	   +  1      5		0.83
24.  Finland		8  1  4  3	 5 -  8    -  3      6		0.75
25.  Iceland		8  2  0  6	 7 - 10	   -  3      4		0.50
26.  Austria		8  1  1  6	 6 - 14    -  8      3		0.38
27.  Faroe Islands 	8  1  1  6	 3 - 26    - 23      3		0.38
28.  Albania		7  1  0  6	 2 - 21	   - 19      2	       (0.29)
29.  Malta		7  0  1  6	 1 - 22	   - 21      1	       (0.14)
30.  Luxembourg		5  0  0  5	 2 - 10	   -  8      0	       (0.00)
31.  Turkey		6  0  0  6	 1 - 14	   - 13      0		0.00
32.  Cyprus		7  0  0  7	 2 - 23	   - 21      0	       (0.00)
33.  San Marino		8  0  0  8	 1 - 33    - 32      0		0.00

   * = Qualified for Euro-92

Statistics are like bikinis;

What they reveal is very revealing.

What they hide i vital.

Mats

    
    Mats, very interesting but you must make allowances for 4 and 5 team
    groups.  Remember the 4 team groups had no so called minnow.  In most
    cases the minnow (Luxembourg, San Marino et al) lot every game and
    boosted the record of the other teams in the group.  I think
    qualification is the real acid test.  
    
    Denmark and Wales are probably the 2 sides that can rue their luck
    although they both lost out to superior teams.
    
    Gary.

	Just saw the following on Usenet.  These appear to be the seedings.
    
    
Article 9749 of rec.sport.soccer:
Path: hollie.rdg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!caen!malgudi.oar.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!psuvm!frmop11!barilvm!p85014
Organization: Bar-Ilan University Computing Center, Israel
Date: Thursday, 5 Dec 1991 14:31:20 IST
From: Anthony Waller <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Subject: Seedings for European Groups - World Cup 94


  I just heard the following from a friend who got hold of one
of the local papers (Ma'ariv).

  European qualifying groups for USA '94: 6 groups, 4 of 6 teams,
2 of 7 teams, a total of 38 teams.

  A list of seedings follows:

   1         2              3         4             5        6

Italy     Yugoslavia      Romania   N.Ireland    Turkey   Luxemburg
England   Czechoslovakia  Denmark   Bulgaria     Iceland  Lichtenstein
Spain     Holland         Poland    Switzerland  Finland  San Marino
Belgium   Scotland        Hungary   Norway       Albania  Faroe Islands
Russia    Austria         Portugal  Greece       Malta    Estonia
France    Ireland         Sweden    Wales        Cyprus   Latvia
                                                          Lithuania
                                                          Israel


  Interesting to say the least!  Let's see what they draw out of the
hat on Sunday!!

  Apparently applications by Ukraine, Georgia and Croatia to be admitted
to the draw were rejected by FIFA.

-------
Anthony Waller           <[email protected]>
Bar-Ilan University
Israel.


    
    

    
    My dream group would be
    
    Belgium, Ireland, Hungary, Nthn Ireland, Albania, Faroe Islands.
    
    The nightmare scenario
    
    France (or Italy) Ireland, Denmark (or Romania), Bulgaria, Turkey, 2
    others.
    
    The teams from the 5thand 6th groupings don't really matter.  While
    there is a vast difference in standard between some of them effectively
    none are likely to qualify.  I'd rather not get a real whipping boy
    like Liechenstein (sp?).
    
    Gary.

    Looks like England, Ireland, Poland and Turkey again ;-)
    
    Paul

According to my quick calculations based on the seedings in .49,

the odds of England, Ireland, Poland and Turkey being in the same
group are  215/1 against.

Further odds are :

No two British/Irish sides in the same group		13/2 against

England vs no other British side			5/4 against

Scotland  } vs no other British/Irish side		5/4 on (each)		
Wales     }
Ireland   }
N. Ireland}

Three British/Irish teams in the same group		8/1 against


If your bookie offers you better odds, you've got a value bet.

    
    Re; .50
    
    >>The teams from the 5thannd 6th groupings don't really matter While
    >>there is a vast difference in standard between some of them
    >>effectively none are likely to qualify
    
    Gary, beware of the Faroe Islands!! They will play on their home ground
    in Torshavn, and be even more dangerous playing at home. They beated
    Austria and drawed against N.I., and it was a combination of pure
    unluck and lack of inspiration that the didn't get any more points. As
    i have Faroe blood in my veins i know their Viking style, and im
    looking forward to travel to the U.S. supporting my two favourite
    teams, SWEDEN and the FAROE ISLANDS!!!8-)
    
    Swap Hungary for Sweden in your drean group, and you have mine!
    
    Mats                                    

    
    The seedings is now official, and it's according to the list in .49
    eccept for one thing. Liechtenstein withdrawed their application in the
    last moment, so it's down to 37 countries. UEFA are having discussions
    to let two countries in seeding group #6 qualify for one spot to make
    it 36 countries, but nothing is confirmed yet.
    
    The drawing will be live in 50 countries, but not here in Sweden or in
    USA (!). You can see it on Eurosport 19.00 CET. In the states, some of
    the cable networks are sending it live, but not the major national
    broadcasting companys.
    
    The qualification will start 1 March 1992, and will be ended latest 
    17 November 1993.
    
    Mats

And this is how it is going to be:

Group I

Italy
Scotland
Portugal
Switserland
Malta
Estland 


Group II

England
Holland
Poland
Norway
Turkey
San Marino


Group III

Spain
Ireland
Denmark
N-Ireland
Letland
Albania
Litouwen


Group IV

Belgium
Tjecho-slowakeije
Romania
Wales
Cypres
F�r-oer Islands


Group V

Sovjet-Union
Yougoslavia
Hongary
Greece
Iceland
Luxemburg


Group VI

France
Austria
Sweden
Bulgaria
Finland
Israel


T_

    Great French TV did not have the draw live. And when the draw was over
    they only discussed the French group! Chauvinistic idiots. Same on the
    radio this morning. Once again, this Notesfile is the greatest
    information medium I know.
    
    Anyway, France are the luckiest it seems. First because, if I
    understand well, 2 will qualify out of six and second, because we did
    not draw any of the 2nd seed big guns. Sweden and Bulgaria are the best
    competitors in our group.
    
    When I see all other groups my bristles go up my spine. They are all
    extremely difficult and ferocious battles are ahead.
    
    What do the Irish think of the North-South clash? Has it happened
    before? (Qualifiers for WC '90, was it?).
    
    �JF?
                            

    Yes JF,
    
    we drew away in Belfast 0-0 , and beat them 3-0 in Dublin for the
    WC90 qualifiers...
    
    I was sure we were going into that awful England, Poland, Turkey
    group ....same as EURO92..how boring.
    
    In group 3, I dont see Latvia, Lithuania or Albania causing us
    any problems, and we definitely have the beating of N. Ireland,
    Denmark and Spain. Its our group if we want it.
    
    Pretty nice draw, seems to me.
    
    *Tiger*

    	Some interesting stuff there. Scotland and Switzerland again. 
    England with Poland and Turkey again, (at least no Ireland!), England 
    should qualify with Holland. Scotland, Portugal and Italy could be
    interesting.
    
    	Group 3 is a good group! Spain, Ireland and Denmark? I wouldn't
    like to bet on that one. JF, I'm certain it's happened before, can't
    think when though.
    
    	Group 6 must be the weekest. I think France may run away with it,
    with a hard fight for second.
    
    
    		Steve	

    
    	It all goes to show what a load of rubbish those seedings were.
    	Ireland were seeded 4 and have got a tremendous chance in their
    	group - I think they'll win it!!
    
    	England get a no.1 seed and draw Holland and Poland...eek! Massive
    	opportunity for a major disaster imo, with Norway quite capable
    	of b*lls-ing it up for all three of those "favourites"...
    
    	Scotland also have a tough draw but should get past Portugal and
    	Switz., and Italy are in transition at the moment and won't find
    	it easy either. Without being too disrespectful, I don't expect
    	any of the Baltic sides to pose any threat at all. 

re -.1

>    	It all goes to show what a load of rubbish those seedings were.
>    	Ireland were seeded 4 and have got a tremendous chance in their
>    	group - I think they'll win it!!

Northern Ireland were seeded 4th, The republic 2nd.

Unless Northern Ireland improve rapidly I can't see them winning it ;-)

I agree, I think the republic will win the group

Al

    
    	Are you sure? Then corrected I stand 8-)
    
    	NI had a good qualifying record in the 80's but are "in transition"
    	at the moment. Ireland are one of the best sides in Europe but have
    	only fulfilled their abilities in the past 4 years after years of
    	disappointing international performances (despite having a
    	collection of the best players in the English league!)
    
    	Scotland are getting better and better and will be clear second
    	faves, and could win their group.
    	
    	Wales have an excellent chance, yet somehow I expect their exit to
    	be a traumatic one - it usually is! Good luck to them all..
    
    	I am less hopeful about England. We've enjoyed some good fortune
    	recently and I can see us losing at least two of the qualifiers.	
    	Given our ability to scrape draws when we don't deserve them, we 
    	may end up relying on a favour from one of the others, and I don't
    	expect they'll be too keen to oblige us somehow 8-)
    
    	Andy.
    

    re .56
    
    JF, simply listen France Info they give you 24hours information.
    They gave all results live and repeated them every 20 minutes
    (as they do with all informations).
    
    Anyway I agree with you : It is a very favourable draw.
    However it is favourable on the paper now, but we don't know
    what will be these teams strength in the future (let's not forget
    that matches will be played till begining of 94), but still as there
    are 2 qualified per group they should be safe.
    
    Thierry

    Andy,
    
    	I agree that due to some iffy results and performances we (Ireland)
    	didnt deliver the goods when we had seom very high caliber players.
    	A lot of people here in Ireland would put non-qualification
    	down to bad luck, but the hell with that, as you have destiny
    	in your own hands (Eoin Hand, geddit!!??)...We blew it ,
    	particularly away from home, in the past..not anymore!
    
    	I also agree that England have an extremely tough group. 
    	Holland will give them a very hard time at home and away. The
    	Poles are always there too. However, I really see England's
    	problems arising against the Norwegians, who will be very difficult
    	at home (remember 2-1 in 1981)..and the Turks (if they find
    	a striker) will also be hard to beat.
    
    	All in all, I'm delighted we aint back with you lot...EURO88,
    	ITALIA90, and the Sweden qualifiers. We've got a few scores
    	to settle with the Danes, who mauled us 4-1 in Dublin in
    	1986. I see ourselves and SPain qualifying....Spain because
    	of the clean 5 wins out of six they will get at home.
    	Those Spanish crowds are worth a couple of goals to their team.
    	They wont win the sixth, cos that'll be us!!!!
    
    	Roll on Boston!
    		

    
    	Well Andy, I think England have a good chance in that group. Apart
    from drawing Holland, I reckon it could have been alot worse.
    
    
    		Emelyn Hughes

    re .62
    	Thierry,
    
    	I listened in France Info, and I was disappointed as it was not 
     really live. Each 3 or 4 minutes, they had a flash to present the draw.
     More than nothing, but not live.
     I have zapped on all chains I can have, the French ones including
     C+, as well as CNN, Sky news or BBC int......Nothing !  a pity ! 
       
     About the draw, considering the today's shape of the France's team, we 
     should not have problems. 
     In all draws, I don't think enormous surprises are to be expected.
     Let's see and enjoy..
    
     Pierre-Yves